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dejavu said..
Quote: "I think I Would rather an aluula frame and standard canopy at the expense of durability, but it's an interesting question as to what makes more difference."

From what I'm hearing about aluula -- that for the first few sessions the wing feels great and then as the canopy starts to stretch the wing starts to feel more and more like a standard wing. Maybe someone who has used an aluula wing a number of times over the last couple of months can comment.

For the maybe 5-10 people in the world who have tried both the Superwing X and the Aluula Glide, what are the positives and negatives and would you recommend each of these wings to?

I would love to try both of these super-premium, exotic offerings.

For the WA crew I know WA Surf has some coming .. Which I will want to try as well to see how they stack up against my fav PPC s.

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Velocicraptor said..

For the maybe 5-10 people in the world who have tried both the Superwing X and the Aluula Glide, what are the positives and negatives and would you recommend each of these wings to?

I would love to try both of these super-premium, exotic offerings.

I have Aluula wings. The wow, wow, wow, moment with Aluula, is WEIGHT, and STIFFNESS. It feels like a zero weight wing. The joy of a weightless wing is unreal. Then when you pump Aluula wings, there is zero give. Instant power on the pump. No flappy bird crap.

Now consider X-ply. The leading edge is going bend and give like any other wing. Flappy bird crap. The weight of X-ply is never mentioned in any promo stuff. That tells me everything about the weight. No way they would be silent about weight if it was lighter.

So we have what is probably, a heavier wing, with a canopy adding speed and upwind gains. Is more speed and upwind what we crave? Or is it lighter and stiffer and better surfing?

We don't really need a back to back comparison when you break down the differences we can expect. Unless, the Aluula wings match or better X-ply in speed and upwind, simply because the stiffer leading edge will not bend. Then Aluula would win in every category.

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DWF said..

Velocicraptor said..

For the maybe 5-10 people in the world who have tried both the Superwing X and the Aluula Glide, what are the positives and negatives and would you recommend each of these wings to?

I would love to try both of these super-premium, exotic offerings.

I have Aluula wings. The wow, wow, wow, moment with Aluula, is WEIGHT, and STIFFNESS. It feels like a zero weight wing. The joy of a weightless wing is unreal. Then when you pump Aluula wings, there is zero give. Instant power on the pump. No flappy bird crap.

Now consider X-ply. The leading edge is going bend and give like any other wing. Flappy bird crap. The weight of X-ply is never mentioned in any promo stuff. That tells me everything about the weight. No way they would be silent about weight if it was lighter.

So we have what is probably, a heavier wing, with a canopy adding speed and upwind gains. Is more speed and upwind what we crave? Or is it lighter and stiffer and better surfing?

We don't really need a back to back comparison when you break down the differences we can expect. Unless, the Aluula wings match or better X-ply in speed and upwind, simply because the stiffer leading edge will not bend. Then Aluula would win in every category.

(slow clapping) agreed

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Now consider X-ply. The leading edge is going bend and give like any other wing. Flappy bird crap. The weight of X-ply is never mentioned in any promo stuff. That tells me everything about the weight. No way they would be silent about weight if it was lighter.

So we have what is probably, a heavier wing, with a canopy adding speed and upwind gains. Is more speed and upwind what we crave? Or is it lighter and stiffer and better surfing?

they also seem to only ever demo the 3.6... I wonder how bad the weight gets as you approach the 5m ...

According to the French forum, the weight of the 5.2 m2 Superwing X is 3.3 kg (without a leash)

Well just talking about the wing part, most of what we use is probably equal to 3/4oz spinnaker cloth which has an actual weight of approx. 0.9 sailmakers ounces which is ounces per square yard. The lightest Contender CZ cloth is 1.9 sm oz and the next is 2.1 sm oz, so give or take about double. Now we're only talking about 4 or 5 SqM generally so the actual difference is not huge but those non-nylon/polyester cloths are never going to be a similar weight. It will come down to longevity and feel for most people...

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Jethrow said..
Well just talking about the wing part, most of what we use is probably equal to 3/4oz spinnaker cloth which has an actual weight of approx. 0.9 sailmakers ounces which is ounces per square yard. The lightest Contender CZ cloth is 1.9 sm oz and the next is 2.1 sm oz, so give or take about double. Now we're only talking about 4 or 5 SqM generally so the actual difference is not huge but those non-nylon/polyester cloths are never going to be a similar weight. It will come down to longevity and feel for most people...

That would only be around 140 -200 grams weight increase in a 5m.
It is very little but very spread out so the difference in inertia can probably be noticeable in handling?.

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mcrt said..

Jethrow said..
Well just talking about the wing part, most of what we use is probably equal to 3/4oz spinnaker cloth which has an actual weight of approx. 0.9 sailmakers ounces which is ounces per square yard. The lightest Contender CZ cloth is 1.9 sm oz and the next is 2.1 sm oz, so give or take about double. Now we're only talking about 4 or 5 SqM generally so the actual difference is not huge but those non-nylon/polyester cloths are never going to be a similar weight. It will come down to longevity and feel for most people...

That would only be around 140 -200 grams weight increase in a 5m.
It is very little but very spread out so the difference in inertia can probably be noticeable in handling?.

A 3.3kg 5m as referenced by the poster above is more than a 200g weight increase. That's probably more like a 500g increase over standard ripstop. That weight makes it a lot heavier than most 6m wings. Luffing will definitely suffer on a wing this heavy.

its going to be hard for Reedin to get many people on board with that. I'm sure the feel is much better in certain aspects, but given how hard it is to demo gear, I'm sure many people are going to get hung up on the weight.

here are a couple of 5m reference wing weights (no bag/leash/dry)

the ones with *s have windows.

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Velocicraptor said..

mcrt said..

Jethrow said..
Well just talking about the wing part, most of what we use is probably equal to 3/4oz spinnaker cloth which has an actual weight of approx. 0.9 sailmakers ounces which is ounces per square yard. The lightest Contender CZ cloth is 1.9 sm oz and the next is 2.1 sm oz, so give or take about double. Now we're only talking about 4 or 5 SqM generally so the actual difference is not huge but those non-nylon/polyester cloths are never going to be a similar weight. It will come down to longevity and feel for most people...

That would only be around 140 -200 grams weight increase in a 5m.
It is very little but very spread out so the difference in inertia can probably be noticeable in handling?.

A 3.3kg 5m as referenced by the poster above is more than a 200g weight increase. That's probably more like a 500g increase over standard ripstop. That weight makes it a lot heavier than most 6m wings. Luffing will definitely suffer on a wing this heavy.

its going to be hard for Reedin to get many people on board with that. I'm sure the feel is much better in certain aspects, but given how hard it is to demo gear, I'm sure many people are going to get hung up on the weight.

You're arguing a negligible weight gain +/- 500g over a higher performing shape with increased longevity.

Very few people will ever gain a performance advantage of a super light wing then following that - it'll need replacing much sooner as it'll stretch and bag out very quickly.

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King Crash said..

Velocicraptor said..

mcrt said..

Jethrow said..
Well just talking about the wing part, most of what we use is probably equal to 3/4oz spinnaker cloth which has an actual weight of approx. 0.9 sailmakers ounces which is ounces per square yard. The lightest Contender CZ cloth is 1.9 sm oz and the next is 2.1 sm oz, so give or take about double. Now we're only talking about 4 or 5 SqM generally so the actual difference is not huge but those non-nylon/polyester cloths are never going to be a similar weight. It will come down to longevity and feel for most people...

That would only be around 140 -200 grams weight increase in a 5m.
It is very little but very spread out so the difference in inertia can probably be noticeable in handling?.

A 3.3kg 5m as referenced by the poster above is more than a 200g weight increase. That's probably more like a 500g increase over standard ripstop. That weight makes it a lot heavier than most 6m wings. Luffing will definitely suffer on a wing this heavy.

its going to be hard for Reedin to get many people on board with that. I'm sure the feel is much better in certain aspects, but given how hard it is to demo gear, I'm sure many people are going to get hung up on the weight.

You're arguing a negligible weight gain +/- 500g over a higher performing shape with increased longevity.

Very few people will ever gain a performance advantage of a super light wing then following that - it'll need replacing much sooner as it'll stretch and bag out very quickly.

For the record, going by the info in this thread - If you compare the Reedin to the truly lightweight wings we are talking about over 1000g difference (1300g if compared to full Aluula Glide). Thats not negligible - it weighs 75% more than the lightest wing on there!

I can see areas where a wing like this could accel, but there are areas where that kind of weight difference is meaningful and would absolutely be noticed. Adding a couple lbs of weight to a wing is definitely going to impact its ability to luff. Having to handle a wing that drops while luffing sucks. Even some of the design contributors have stated they prefer the lighter ripstop construction for some disciplines of winging (surfing for instance).

One interesting comment I saw said that you can ride this wing a bit smaller than a normal wing and generate similar power. If thats the case, maybe we should be looking at the weight for the next size down for a true apples to apples comparison of power/weight. For what its worth the 4.7m weighs 2.90kg.

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Velocicraptor said..

King Crash said..

Velocicraptor said..

mcrt said..

Jethrow said..
Well just talking about the wing part, most of what we use is probably equal to 3/4oz spinnaker cloth which has an actual weight of approx. 0.9 sailmakers ounces which is ounces per square yard. The lightest Contender CZ cloth is 1.9 sm oz and the next is 2.1 sm oz, so give or take about double. Now we're only talking about 4 or 5 SqM generally so the actual difference is not huge but those non-nylon/polyester cloths are never going to be a similar weight. It will come down to longevity and feel for most people...

That would only be around 140 -200 grams weight increase in a 5m.
It is very little but very spread out so the difference in inertia can probably be noticeable in handling?.

A 3.3kg 5m as referenced by the poster above is more than a 200g weight increase. That's probably more like a 500g increase over standard ripstop. That weight makes it a lot heavier than most 6m wings. Luffing will definitely suffer on a wing this heavy.

its going to be hard for Reedin to get many people on board with that. I'm sure the feel is much better in certain aspects, but given how hard it is to demo gear, I'm sure many people are going to get hung up on the weight.

You're arguing a negligible weight gain +/- 500g over a higher performing shape with increased longevity.

Very few people will ever gain a performance advantage of a super light wing then following that - it'll need replacing much sooner as it'll stretch and bag out very quickly.

For the record, going by the info in this thread - If you compare the Reedin to the truly lightweight wings we are talking about over 1000g difference (1300g if compared to full Aluula Glide). Thats not negligible - it weighs 75% more than the lightest wing on there!

I can see areas where a wing like this could accel, but there are areas where that kind of weight difference is meaningful and would absolutely be noticed. Adding a couple lbs of weight to a wing is definitely going to impact its ability to luff. Having to handle a wing that drops while luffing sucks. Even some of the design contributors have stated they prefer the lighter ripstop construction for some disciplines of winging (surfing for instance).

One interesting comment I saw said that you can ride this wing a bit smaller than a normal wing and generate similar power. If thats the case, maybe we should be looking at the weight for the next size down for a true apples to apples comparison of power/weight. For what its worth the 4.7m weighs 2.90kg.

A valid point I concede re weight, but a really important factor which has been missed or cherry picked. All these weights are dry. I've only had a few sessions where I've managed to keep my wing dry for extended periods be it waves or getting in the water, and I can assure you most are in the same basket. The moment the Dacron and ripstop get wet, well.... hate to tell you, you've just gained a hefty chunk of weight, the frame more so than anything.

Reedin X-ply is hydrophobic as is most laminates, water will bead and peel off. Spinnaker ripstop will absorb water, no matter the weight, no matter the layup, that's the nature of it, dacron the same. I know this from years of sailing and industry. The easy one here is a wet spinnaker is heavier than a dry one, even if it's lapping at the surface.

So what alternatives do we have?

I can't speak for Aluula as I'm not super knowledgeable over it, but that being said. Today I saw a photo of an RRD wing with an Aluula frame and laminate wing. I would say this is probably the next logical move.

Paying for an Aluula frame then just using regular nylon for the canopy seems pointless, no matter how good the frame is the canopy takes a huge amount of load. Bit like a Dacron windsurfing sail which ends up needing massive reinforcement to work compared with a laminate or monofilm one.

This canopy tech shouldn't be very expensive based on material cost difference. So all it's going to take is some market penetration. Especially now that wing racing is happening.

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Grantmac said..
Paying for an Aluula frame then just using regular nylon for the canopy seems pointless, no matter how good the frame is the canopy takes a huge amount of load. Bit like a Dacron windsurfing sail which ends up needing massive reinforcement to work compared with a laminate or monofilm one.

This canopy tech shouldn't be very expensive based on material cost difference. So all it's going to take is some market penetration. Especially now that wing racing is happening.

Things have changed a bunch since you sold your gen1 Ozones. This includes the type of dacron, the orientation of the warp/weft, the paneling in addition to a bunch of other fancy words. The primary benefit of the Allula LE is to support a stiff airframe. Even stretched dacron canopy with a stiff airframe is a fully functioning and powerful wing. A stretched canopy and flimsy airframe is really crappy and relegated to fire sale status.
Allula airframe with that SuperEx canopy material, (or something else) will be a real good feel no doubt.
It also will cost 4k.

My opinion is lets fly it and see.

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eppo said..
My opinion is lets fly it and see.

Absolutely spot on - I've tested x-ply wings, with and without battens, Hookipa and Alula LE material wings. Weight of wing is hugely important for feel, but so is the design and performance of the wing profile. A heavy wing can feel light to fly, if designed right, but when luffed out, you will always be reminded of which is lighter. So in the end it depends on how well it is designed and it's application. For downwinding and surf I'm not convinced the x-ply would ever find favour with me.

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PeterP said..

eppo said..
My opinion is lets fly it and see.

Absolutely spot on - I've tested x-ply wings, with and without battens, Hookipa and Alula LE material wings. Weight of wing is hugely important for feel, but so is the design and performance of the wing profile. A heavy wing can feel light to fly, if designed right, but when luffed out, you will always be reminded of which is lighter. So in the end it depends on how well it is designed and it's application. For downwinding and surf I'm not convinced the x-ply would ever find favour with me.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, or alluded to it. We're going to follow wind surfing with multiple disciplines and multiple outcomes.
What's good for one, won't be good for another discipline. Not really a big deal given we're trying to currently offer one answer to multiple disciplines already.

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Jaybin said..
According to the French forum, the weight of the 5.2 m2 Superwing X is 3.3 kg (without a leash)

Looks like there is some variety in the Superwing x weight measurements. Another owner quoted 3.0 kg (without a leash) for the 5.2 m2

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King Crash said..

PeterP said..

eppo said..
My opinion is lets fly it and see.

Absolutely spot on - I've tested x-ply wings, with and without battens, Hookipa and Alula LE material wings. Weight of wing is hugely important for feel, but so is the design and performance of the wing profile. A heavy wing can feel light to fly, if designed right, but when luffed out, you will always be reminded of which is lighter. So in the end it depends on how well it is designed and it's application. For downwinding and surf I'm not convinced the x-ply would ever find favour with me.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, or alluded to it. We're going to follow wind surfing with multiple disciplines and multiple outcomes.
What's good for one, won't be good for another discipline. Not really a big deal given we're trying to currently offer one answer to multiple disciplines already.

Yeh which is why I really like the ppc wings I use. Sits just right of centre with wave on left and power / rigidity on right. It's a nice blend of rigidity and power but is decent in the waves - downwind. Kind of a solid all rounder. Be interesting to try all these new wings I recon.

I can't get excited about riding a wing that weighs 50% more than my Ocean Rodeo glides for the same reason I wouldn't buy the glass over carbon version of a board. Weight matters allot.

Once you have experienced the benefit of the lighter wings with their superior handling especially wave riding you won't go back. I rarely fall during a session so the wing getting wet argument doesn't hold and when I do it drys quickly riding in the sun.

For the people riding heavy wings like Duotone Slicks and others I can see this Reedin X wing doing well. I think they should be marketing it for race and flat water applications only where it's upwind ability and speed will offset the weight handicap. This is probably the biggest market worldwide when you think of all the people who sail on lakes in Europe and US/Canada.

If the race market takes off expect to see all the manufactures bringing out similar products because if you don't have one you won't be competitive once everyone gets their starts nailed and tacks sorted racing becomes an equipment war.

I just hope the wing industry R&D doesn't now get invested going down the race path because I would like my wave riding wings to last more than a few months before bagging out but still weigh around 2Kg and the X ply material is clearly not the answer to this problem.

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KB7 said..
I can't get excited about riding a wing that weighs 50% more than my Ocean Rodeo glides for the same reason I wouldn't buy the glass over carbon version of a board. Weight matters allot.

Once you have experienced the benefit of the lighter wings with their superior handling especially wave riding you won't go back. I rarely fall during a session so the wing getting wet argument doesn't hold and when I do it drys quickly riding in the sun.

For the people riding heavy wings like Duotone Slicks and others I can see this Reedin X wing doing well. I think they should be marketing it for race and flat water applications only where it's upwind ability and speed will offset the weight handicap. This is probably the biggest market worldwide when you think of all the people who sail on lakes in Europe and US/Canada.

If the race market takes off expect to see all the manufactures bringing out similar products because if you don't have one you won't be competitive once everyone gets their starts nailed and tacks sorted racing becomes an equipment war.

I just hope the wing industry R&D doesn't now get invested going down the race path because I would like my wave riding wings to last more than a few months before bagging out but still weigh around 2Kg and the X ply material is clearly not the answer to this problem.

Agreed. I think Kane mentioned on here that while the Reedin was amazing in many ways-he uses other wings for waves. I see that wing as a pretty rad freestyle and powered up special. Forget about anything 5m and above.
Maybe Foil Fanatic (Kane) can pipe in here?

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martyman said..

KB7 said..
I can't get excited about riding a wing that weighs 50% more than my Ocean Rodeo glides for the same reason I wouldn't buy the glass over carbon version of a board. Weight matters allot.

Once you have experienced the benefit of the lighter wings with their superior handling especially wave riding you won't go back. I rarely fall during a session so the wing getting wet argument doesn't hold and when I do it drys quickly riding in the sun.

For the people riding heavy wings like Duotone Slicks and others I can see this Reedin X wing doing well. I think they should be marketing it for race and flat water applications only where it's upwind ability and speed will offset the weight handicap. This is probably the biggest market worldwide when you think of all the people who sail on lakes in Europe and US/Canada.

If the race market takes off expect to see all the manufactures bringing out similar products because if you don't have one you won't be competitive once everyone gets their starts nailed and tacks sorted racing becomes an equipment war.

I just hope the wing industry R&D doesn't now get invested going down the race path because I would like my wave riding wings to last more than a few months before bagging out but still weigh around 2Kg and the X ply material is clearly not the answer to this problem.

Agreed. I think Kane mentioned on here that while the Reedin was amazing in many ways-he uses other wings for waves. I see that wing as a pretty rad freestyle and powered up special. Forget about anything 5m and above.
Maybe Foil Fanatic (Kane) can pipe in here?

I think two people now highlighting the same point really confirms what we're going to see. Brands will offer different wings for different disciplines.
Plain and simple, I like to ride small fast foils. Most don't, there are choices for us both. Right now we're all on marginally different wings.
Give it a year.

IMHO if 100% Aluula wings become available and reasonably affordable they are going to be the material of choice no matter the discipline.

Aluula just smokes any other material out there in weight to stretch resistance,waterproof,foldable...

Design wise yeah, racing and wave wings should diverge at some point.

I suspect an all allulla wing will be around $2500 all in.
Pretty rich but I will say this- an all allulla canopy just doesn't rip or stretch. I was trying it winging w/Richard(OR) and he told me not to worry about trashing it-i wouldn't be able to. I walk about 5ft w/the wing and a swirly gusts hits it. The canopy ends up on the upwind side, wrapped right over my stabilizer. All other canopies I've had...right through. This time...
Nothing. I sheepishly peeled it off and went on my merry way with zero damage lol.

I think Robert from blue planet mentioned the allulla OR wing is not as fold resistant as some other non-allulla wings in the middle when jumping and pumping under larger rider loads duw to the small leading edge.

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martyman said..
I suspect an all allulla wing will be around $2500 all in.
Pretty rich but I will say this- an all allulla canopy just doesn't rip or stretch. I was trying it winging w/Richard(OR) and he told me not to worry about trashing it-i wouldn't be able to. I walk about 5ft w/the wing and a swirly gusts hits it. The canopy ends up on the upwind side, wrapped right over my stabilizer. All other canopies I've had...right through. This time...
Nothing. I sheepishly peeled it off and went on my merry way with zero damage lol.

Going the way the Race sups did:starting at a reasonable price point , got more and more advanced but also more and more expensive till a point that nobody buys them anymore.

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AnyBoard said..
I think Robert from blue planet mentioned the allulla OR wing is not as fold resistant as some other non-allulla wings in the middle when jumping and pumping under larger rider loads duw to the small leading edge.

I'm guessing if OR goes just a bit larger in the middle third of the leading edge with a bit more reinforcement in that zone that the flex feeling will go away pretty fast for heavier/aggressive riders with little loss in performance you get from a skinnier leading edge and the weight penalty would be marginal. Easy enough to implement for next year. This is only the first generation from them; the next one should be crazy good with all of the lessons learned in the last year plus. I can't wait to see their development and further application of Aluula in their construction of wings. I saw some trick looking little carbon handles being tested on the Glide. Looked really good. OR is definitely a little company to watch in the wing market.

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Jeroensurf said..

martyman said..
I suspect an all allulla wing will be around $2500 all in.
Pretty rich but I will say this- an all allulla canopy just doesn't rip or stretch. I was trying it winging w/Richard(OR) and he told me not to worry about trashing it-i wouldn't be able to. I walk about 5ft w/the wing and a swirly gusts hits it. The canopy ends up on the upwind side, wrapped right over my stabilizer. All other canopies I've had...right through. This time...
Nothing. I sheepishly peeled it off and went on my merry way with zero damage lol.

Going the way the Race sups did:starting at a reasonable price point , got more and more advanced but also more and more expensive till a point that nobody buys them anymore.

Well, I guess the thing is-If a person doesn't want to spend the money on the best of the best, but what you can afford. I'd love a Tesla truck, but I drive a Honda minivan.

Marty

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AnyBoard said..
I think Robert from blue planet mentioned the allulla OR wing is not as fold resistant as some other non-allulla wings in the middle when jumping and pumping under larger rider loads duw to the small leading edge.

Dunno about that, I'm 210pds and with the wing pumped to 9pds there is zero deformation under load.
Was Robert saying that he thinks that there might be deformation, or was he saying there was deformation? If there was deformation, then what PSI was it pumped to?
I had a buddy try mine and he only pumped it to 6psi as that is what he does on his Ozone's. The result wasn't great lol.

The thing about all this is, it seems like people are really busy trying to poke holes in products they haven't even tried-that is a pretty common theme with new products. This can create false narratives that cause problems for these companies. Trolling based on conjecture and no experience is kinda ****ty for these companies trying to innovate-reedin, OR, Duotone,etc -all of them