The WIndtech brand is also made at the Kinetic factory in Vietnam and the attention to detail and quality has been outstanding on both light construction slalom / fast freeride boards and wave board layups.

I don't think we have seen a single quality issue in Australia.

So hats off to Kinetic and their materials / attention to detail.

Does Kinetic hand lay up ?
Cobra uses some kind of resin infusion inside a concrete mould don't they

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col5555 said..
Does Kinetic hand lay up ?
Cobra uses some kind of resin infusion inside a concrete mould don't they

Proper vacuum resin infusion in a solid design should deliver a higher strength to weight product. Less voids with less resin and less waste.

Foil board is a Horue Tiny. Made in Slovenia by the Flikka factory. Any other board brands made by Flikka? I think Peter Thommen has his customs made now by Flikka, but his production boards are still Cobra made. The light weight for 110L (~6.4kg) has me wondering how tough & durable this board is.

Experiencing a failure can taint one's opinion about a board maker. Have owned couple defective boards. Only board I've ever broke was my Naish 86L wave board. Everyone that's looked at thinks it's a manufacturing defect. Bit too much of a nose first landing resulted in a fracture ~40cm down from the nose tip straight across from rail to rail. Still would have replaced it, but after couple weeks of wave sailing on Maui using a different make 78L wave board my likes had changed. Had a Randy French designed, built in Stevenson, WA Seatrends that delaminated. They covered their mistake with a replacement board and paid for the shipping back to them of the defective board.

Bottomline. Any poorly designed board will probably fail. Any brand. A few will slip by QC.

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OldGuy3 said..

col5555 said..
Does Kinetic hand lay up ?
Cobra uses some kind of resin infusion inside a concrete mould don't they

Proper vacuum resin infusion in a solid design should deliver a higher strength to weight product. Less voids with less resin and less waste.

No production sailboards, that I know of, use resin infusion. Polystyrene is too weak to take the pressure and is like a jar of marbles, it would fill up with resin. All boards will all be done using hand layup in a mould - either compression (Severne) or under vacuum (Cobra).

Only exception to this is Patrik with Airinside tech, which I believe is prepreg moulded in an autoclave.

Resin infusion needs relatively high pressure and all voids are filled, not always the easiest to get right, and certainly not necessarily the best way to get light weight. I have made a few surfboards with resin infusion, but you always end up with a lot more resin consumption than you would with hand layup. I guess the saturation of the fibre is better. But for sailboards this tech would crush the polystyrene blank.

Anyone know where Naish are made?
and how do brands get away with Made in Aus when they're from Cobra - eg JS Hyfi (surfboards)?

^^^ Are u finding the JS all crease badly just behind your front foot? I've done a lot of them. Shame when aussie built becomes just another GSI clone.

Patrick International posted a video series on their YouTube channel a while back giving a behind the scenes look at their board manufacturing suppliers in the Ukraine. Don't know if they still make their boards there or if only the air inside boards are build there.

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kateontour said..
and how do brands get away with Made in Aus when they're from Cobra - eg JS Hyfi (surfboards)?

Don't know about surfboards but I don't know of any brand here in Australia in the windsurf segment that claims any of their gear is build here unless it actually is. I would say in the surfboard segment brands get away with it because the market is simply a lot bigger and customers are not scrutinising quality as much because the boards are a lot less expensive. I mean most surfers expect their board to be a two piece if they get a heavy wipe out. Some of the carnage I have seen at places like Margaret River or Gnaraloo in big surf makes you wonder how anything survives.

There are some not-Airinside boards, what Patrik builds in his facility in the ucrania, too.

Last year the Foil-Comps and a small series of Foil-Ride (105, 125 and 145 ltr.) called "VIP" series. I had a 125 from them.
They are very stiff, a bit "beefed up" - no problems after crashes et cet.

The first Foil-Comps from the ucrania have been delivered these days - I got my FC 78 (209 cm x 78 cm, 145 liter, ca. 8kg) - it looks great.

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Mark _australia said..
^^^ Are u finding the JS all crease badly just behind your front foot? I've done a lot of them. Shame when aussie built becomes just another GSI clone.

I've never creased a board and did the nose of my Hyfi Nitro within a month - about 10 inches from the tip! And the repair guy decided to spray the crease with a thick black line, So now I have a cross under my nose when I'm paddling.
So are Naish made at Cobra?

^^ Black line to hide repair? Sound like you need to send them to me

This was two creases, full width, in midsection -

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kateontour said..

Mark _australia said..
^^^ Are u finding the JS all crease badly just behind your front foot? I've done a lot of them. Shame when aussie built becomes just another GSI clone.

I've never creased a board and did the nose of my Hyfi Nitro within a month - about 10 inches from the tip! And the repair guy decided to spray the crease with a thick black line, So now I have a cross under my nose when I'm paddling.
So are Naish made at Cobra?

Naish WIndsurfing boards are made at Cobra - not sure about SUP, kite etc...

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cammd said..

unlucky "friday afternoon board",

You wouldn't want a "friday afternoon board" from the Kinetic factory.

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philn said..
The only comment I'll add is that my Quatro boards have been above average strength compared to other brands I've owned.

You'd hope so... last I checked they now retail for $4,299 here in Australia or around Euro 2,600. That's a lot of money when you consider how quickly they drop in price. Try and sell a 3 year old production board. You are lucky to get $800 here in Australia.

Don't leave that Patrik Foil Comp board in the sun. Black solar oven.

I'm getting ready to order a new board and I'm looking at a Goya Airbolt which I believe is a Cobra build. The other option is a Tabou Magic Ride. I believe that one to be Kinetic. Now, here's the thing, it appears the Goyas are, at least in material and design choice, top of the line Cobra spec... Hopefully the build quality matches that. Then, Tabou, doesn't really have a whole lot of representation here in the states... but they appear to be quality builds from all I've ready. With Goya though, I can easily phone them on Maui and get support. With Tabou, the distributor in Florida seems to be really good... even though they don'y focus on Tabou and mostly sell other brands.

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eluviis said..
I'm getting ready to order a new board and I'm looking at a Goya Airbolt which I believe is a Cobra build. The other option is a Tabou Magic Ride. I believe that one to be Kinetic. Now, here's the thing, it appears the Goyas are, at least in material and design choice, top of the line Cobra spec... Hopefully the build quality matches that. Then, Tabou, doesn't really have a whole lot of representation here in the states... but they appear to be quality builds from all I've ready. With Goya though, I can easily phone them on Maui and get support. With Tabou, the distributor in Florida seems to be really good... even though they don'y focus on Tabou and mostly sell other brands.

My first Goya Bolt 135 from 2019 looked good, but on closer examination I noticed lots of pin holes on the rail edges around the tail cutouts, and the material around those pin holes flexed under thumb nail pressure. Contacted BigWinds and they arranged for the return, while Goya sent me a replacement that was perfect. That board has taken many impacts from the mast (put on a custom nose guard right away after the first minor mast nose ding, barely noticed it) and the foil box has handled many impacts and is still solid. My only complaint is the concave deck, but a 3/4" mast base shim eliminated that problem.

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eluviis said..
I'm getting ready to order a new board and I'm looking at a Goya Airbolt which I believe is a Cobra build. The other option is a Tabou Magic Ride. I believe that one to be Kinetic. Now, here's the thing, it appears the Goyas are, at least in material and design choice, top of the line Cobra spec... Hopefully the build quality matches that. Then, Tabou, doesn't really have a whole lot of representation here in the states... but they appear to be quality builds from all I've ready. With Goya though, I can easily phone them on Maui and get support. With Tabou, the distributor in Florida seems to be really good... even though they don'y focus on Tabou and mostly sell other brands.

Taboo are made at Cobra as far as I know. What is your source showing they are made at Kinetic ?

^^ thats what I thought too

Traditionally, all their WS boards are really tough. Dunno about the Magic Carpet - possibly a bit lighter to appear to the crossover crowd?

You can ask me...
I do support work for Tabou/GA (teamrider) and i can tell you that our boards are from Cobra.
At Cobra you can choose from different materials and lay up's and in our case Fabien says which ones he wants them to use. So every brand that let Cobra produce there boards can mix materials and lay up's to there preferance, thats why some Cobra produced brands are a bit stronger or lighter then other Cobra produced brands.
It's no rocket science though because Cobra helps with there know how etc etc

^^^^^^
Have you been inside the working part of the factory ? You wouldn't happen to have a walk through vid of the build process ?
I would love a tour in the Cobra factory . I wonder how many products a day are made , 100 ? They say 2500 workers . It must be huge . I would love to see the blank shaping process . Is there any automated systems ? Are cloths wetted out by machine ? Are there big runs of a particular board on an assembly line for efficiency or individually built ? Do they have a reusable vac bag system ? It would answer so many questions buzzing in my head . Because there are not many pics or vids I can find , I am dubious of a few things . I would love to be set straight that Cobra , IS , an eco striving company full of passionate well paid skilled craftsmen working in a clean healthy environment . There must be rows of sanding guys with huge sanding machines , please tell me they're wearing more than paper masks I am a realist and accept the huge amount of toxic rubbish produced in this kind of manufacture. In the pic below are those paper masks any protection against the resin fumes in the cramped confined room ? Tell me that's not polyester resin being used . Im sure it's a water based resin made from sustainable bean curd.

^^^ That's about the closest you'll get to a look inside a I reckon. Its like the CIA in there

:
videos of cobra

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Ben1973 said..

:
videos of cobra

The execution of that video tells you everything you need to know

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martR said..
You can ask me...
I do support work for Tabou/GA (teamrider) and i can tell you that our boards are from Cobra.
At Cobra you can choose from different materials and lay up's and in our case Fabien says which ones he wants them to use. So every brand that let Cobra produce there boards can mix materials and lay up's to there preferance, thats why some Cobra produced brands are a bit stronger or lighter then other Cobra produced brands.
It's no rocket science though because Cobra helps with there know how etc etc

Yes this is true. Cobra while Thai owned is a great Australian led success story, Kym Thompson, Aussie key top manager there in the manufacturing is a great shaper and a windsurfer as well as a surfer, Bruce Wylie, Aussie world class windsurfer and designer is also CCO. I suggest Cobra being the manufacturing market leader is more likely to have complaints. I think if you look at it the majority of windsurfing, surfing and SUP brands are made at Cobra hence the greatest probability and likelihood of complaints as some brands specs, lay up and the like may be more problematic or defective across a wide range of brands. Then of course there is the inevitable issue of occasional possible Cobra failure alleged by some in this thread in its own workscope but that may or may not be integrated into the OEM brand's failures. It seems many windsurfers never complain and probably some brands never receive complaints..perhaps there are too many hobbyists in the windsurfing sport who fix issues themselves or perhaps most issues are fair, wear and tear or just misuse by owner/user in surf eg you can break anything in the shore dump etc. Did anyone complain to JP Australia about the issues that triggered this thread as they are responsible (irrespective of any Cobra failures alleged) it seems unless I missed something ?

^^^ I don't think it was JP's fault but yes they have to rectify the issue with warranty. Imax said the board was no glass on the tail only bog so they have over-sanded the tail then slapped crap over it and painted. That's Cobra issue - slackness from worker or no QC from supervisors. Solution - oversanded areas should go back to laminator for couple layers of glass cutoffs, then back to the finally shaping bog person. Cost - nil

Having said that there was a run of JPs failing in the same place due to a material issue, I told them and showed them pics and they could not have been less interested as the boards were by now 18mths old. I'd at lest hope they gave the cobra blokes a slap. Or at least stop using round pieces of reinforcement that can be accidentally put in 90deg off (doubt it, all about minimising material)

So really, there is no care factor in a board made for $400 and sold to you for $4K

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Mark _australia said..
^^^ I don't think it was JP's fault but yes they have to rectify the issue with warranty. Imax said the board was no glass on the tail only bog so they have over-sanded the tail then slapped crap over it and painted. That's Cobra issue - slackness from worker or no QC from supervisors. Solution - oversanded areas should go back to laminator for couple layers of glass cutoffs, then back to the finally shaping bog person. Cost - nil

Having said that there was a run of JPs failing in the same place due to a material issue, I told them and showed them pics and they could not have been less interested as the boards were by now 18mths old. I'd at lest hope they gave the cobra blokes a slap. Or at least stop using round pieces of reinforcement that can be accidentally put in 90deg off (doubt it, all about minimising material)

So really, there is no care factor in a board made for $400 and sold to you for $4K

Did anyone complain to JP Australia about the issues that triggered this thread as they are responsible as brand seller (irrespective of any outsourced manufacturer Cobra failures alleged) ? Brands are responsible for the acts and omissions of their subcontractors. What did the retailer do ? Did they pursue JP ?

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RichardG said..

Mark _australia said..
^^^ I don't think it was JP's fault but yes they have to rectify the issue with warranty. Imax said the board was no glass on the tail only bog so they have over-sanded the tail then slapped crap over it and painted. That's Cobra issue - slackness from worker or no QC from supervisors. Solution - oversanded areas should go back to laminator for couple layers of glass cutoffs, then back to the finally shaping bog person. Cost - nil

Having said that there was a run of JPs failing in the same place due to a material issue, I told them and showed them pics and they could not have been less interested as the boards were by now 18mths old. I'd at lest hope they gave the cobra blokes a slap. Or at least stop using round pieces of reinforcement that can be accidentally put in 90deg off (doubt it, all about minimising material)

So really, there is no care factor in a board made for $400 and sold to you for $4K

Did anyone complain to JP Australia about the issues that triggered this thread as they are responsible as brand seller (irrespective of any outsourced manufacturer Cobra failures alleged) ? Brands are responsible for the acts and omissions of their subcontractors. What did the retailer do ? Did they pursue JP ?

The board was 3 years old and second hand . There is no manufacturer comeback from that . However , it was in good condition and well looked after .
Also the strange eps foam layer separation thing also going on which I have no answer for . So apart from those two monumental issues , I'm sure it's just ace .

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Imax1 said..

RichardG said..

Mark _australia said..
^^^ I don't think it was JP's fault but yes they have to rectify the issue with warranty. Imax said the board was no glass on the tail only bog so they have over-sanded the tail then slapped crap over it and painted. That's Cobra issue - slackness from worker or no QC from supervisors. Solution - oversanded areas should go back to laminator for couple layers of glass cutoffs, then back to the finally shaping bog person. Cost - nil

Having said that there was a run of JPs failing in the same place due to a material issue, I told them and showed them pics and they could not have been less interested as the boards were by now 18mths old. I'd at lest hope they gave the cobra blokes a slap. Or at least stop using round pieces of reinforcement that can be accidentally put in 90deg off (doubt it, all about minimising material)

So really, there is no care factor in a board made for $400 and sold to you for $4K

Did anyone complain to JP Australia about the issues that triggered this thread as they are responsible as brand seller (irrespective of any outsourced manufacturer Cobra failures alleged) ? Brands are responsible for the acts and omissions of their subcontractors. What did the retailer do ? Did they pursue JP ?

The board was 3 years old and second hand . There is no manufacturer comeback from that . However , it was in good condition and well looked after .
Also the strange eps foam layer separation thing also going on which I have no answer for . So apart from those two monumental issues , I'm sure it's just ace .

Thanks and well pointed out. Under the Australian consumer law legislation there is actually potential liability for the retailer for latent (ie hidden) defects and faults making it unfit for purpose like the one you noted and this is not limited by time although as time runs on the liability lessens for sure practically speaking due to many factors.

"Products must be of acceptable quality, that is: (a) safe, lasting, with no faults; (b) look acceptable; (c) do all the things someone would normally expect them to do. Acceptable quality takes into account what would normally be expected for the type of product and cost."

Indeed the repairs could have been done at the cost of the retailer if the original consumer pursued the retailer. JP Australia via its retailer should have been held to account by the consumer. However secondhand goods like the one you noted are excluded from such statutory warranties if the goods are secondhand and purchased from a private seller (different if purchased from a business). Always look to the retailer.

www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/consumer-guarantees

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Imax1 said..
^^^^^^
Have you been inside the working part of the factory ? You wouldn't happen to have a walk through vid of the build process ?
I would love a tour in the Cobra factory . I wonder how many products a day are made , 100 ? They say 2500 workers . It must be huge . I would love to see the blank shaping process . Is there any automated systems ? Are cloths wetted out by machine ? Are there big runs of a particular board on an assembly line for efficiency or individually built ? Do they have a reusable vac bag system ? It would answer so many questions buzzing in my head . Because there are not many pics or vids I can find , I am dubious of a few things . I would love to be set straight that Cobra , IS , an eco striving company full of passionate well paid skilled craftsmen working in a clean healthy environment . There must be rows of sanding guys with huge sanding machines , please tell me they're wearing more than paper masks I am a realist and accept the huge amount of toxic rubbish produced in this kind of manufacture. In the pic below are those paper masks any protection against the resin fumes in the cramped confined room ? Tell me that's not polyester resin being used . Im sure it's a water based resin made from sustainable bean curd.

No i am sorry i can't and i won't.
I just do support work and that's it... i started to do the Gaastra and Tabou forums (with Ross , Matt , Thomas and Alex) back in 2011 untill we decided to stop with the forums on our site because of the spam and **** that some people posted there on daily bases. Enough was enough and it was costing money.
And since then i kept on doing the same on the background.
Based in Europe (for newsports).
So i can't say much about the factory's builts. I only know that Mr. Wylie is doing a great job there.