This discussion here is misleading.

Cobra produces, what the different brands want - and the used material, structure and composition is for them different.

Therefore the reclamation numbers for the different brands - all build by Cobra - are significant different.

There are company's with cobra boards with this ominous 0,5% reclamation quote.

Fair bit of off-topic stuff here. T36 we all know the brands specify construction.
But this is about the substandard tail of a board opening up. I doubt any brand specifies to skimp on the tail glass. Or not have any at all.
Not talking heavy footed sailors or gorillas who break wave boards (Basher) - that will always happen as some people are hard on it. Having said that if you're learning big moves you want a custom not a factory board.

Back to what I said about the new (ish) trend of just making the ends of a board near enough then finishing with filler. Its very poor workmanship and I would expect to be able to stand my $3500 board on end without it fracturing. Or the odd bump on land to be survivable.

Its not just Cobra, some seem to think that Kinetic are better but I was specifically thinking of a BIG brand from Kinetic factory that has waveboard tails made of filler. Its designed to be easy sanding (weak) - not a structural component. Of course it falls to bits.
The other issue with sanding thru like the other board seen here lately is a clear laziness on the part of the worker and needs better supervision / QC

Nothing to do with hard use and full snaps etc. (Basher). Nothing to do with what the brands specify (T36). Its not a "some boards are light and strong" thing. Its a "giving a sh!t" thing
The last couple of pics on this forum with tail damage are bloody disgraceful. As I said, I increasingly see use of bog to finish, and total sand throughs that they clearly didn't give a crap about.

Here's why they don't always do it right - the proper way is a bit more work:

If you do this as one step it IS possible but needs lots of work after for wrinkles and fill and sand. For a complex tail shape they skimp.

The tail has the bevel on top bonded on first then sanded off. (Faded out at edges where u can see blue line).
The next day swallow tail has had three pieces bonded on, with the curve heat formed and taped to hold in position.
So this pic is three steps at least, and in this pic the deck lam is sitting a couple inches high while its being cut to size etc:


Then the deck laminate is vacuumed on





Then much sanding and blending

^^^ then that will get at least 3x glass and 1x carbon kevlar over.

Do you want that, or the last inch or so moulded on bog ...?

Overall I agree with Mark _australia. The only comment I'll add is that my Quatro boards have been above average strength compared to other brands I've owned. (Starboard I'm looking at you!)

^^ Never repaired one.

Starboard on the other hand...... phew......

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Mark _australia said..
Fair bit of off-topic stuff here. T36 we all know the brands specify construction.
But this is about the substandard tail of a board opening up. I doubt any brand specifies to skimp on the tail glass. Or not have any at all.
Not talking heavy footed sailors or gorillas who break wave boards (Basher) - that will always happen as some people are hard on it. Having said that if you're learning big moves you want a custom not a factory board.

Back to what I said about the new (ish) trend of just making the ends of a board near enough then finishing with filler. Its very poor workmanship and I would expect to be able to stand my $3500 board on end without it fracturing. Or the odd bump on land to be survivable.

Its not just Cobra, some seem to think that Kinetic are better but I was specifically thinking of a BIG brand from Kinetic factory that has waveboard tails made of filler. Its designed to be easy sanding (weak) - not a structural component. Of course it falls to bits.
The other issue with sanding thru like the other board seen here lately is a clear laziness on the part of the worker and needs better supervision / QC

Nothing to do with hard use and full snaps etc. (Basher). Nothing to do with what the brands specify (T36). Its not a "some boards are light and strong" thing. Its a "giving a sh!t" thing
The last couple of pics on this forum with tail damage are bloody disgraceful. As I said, I increasingly see use of bog to finish, and total sand throughs that they clearly didn't give a crap about.

Here's why they don't always do it right - the proper way is a bit more work:

If you do this as one step it IS possible but needs lots of work after for wrinkles and fill and sand. For a complex tail shape they skimp.

The tail has the bevel on top bonded on first then sanded off. (Faded out at edges where u can see blue line).
The next day swallow tail has had three pieces bonded on, with the curve heat formed and taped to hold in position.
So this pic is three steps at least, and in this pic the deck lam is sitting a couple inches high while its being cut to size etc:


Then the deck laminate is vacuumed on





Then much sanding and blending

I used to frequent a bike forum that much of was devoted to handbuilt bikes (steel, alu and even cf) and allowed newer and amateur builders to query more experienced plus builders could showcase what they were currently working on. It was amazing to see the craftsmanship and attention to detail the better builders did. The little stuff you were never aware of that went into a bespoke frame.

I got the same pleasure seeing these pics. And, having done just enough board mods to realize how hard and time consuming this all is to do correctly (and how much I have to learn), really appreciate all the little bits done here to make someone a really good board.

If one has the means and access to a custom builder, it can be a very fun and enjoyable process. Definitely something to consider.

This thread is a good example of the market at work. If a builder puts out a product with quality problems, the word gets around, and the builder changes their process or loses business. Pretty simple.

Years ago, I bought a production slalom board built in eastern Europe. After just one year of use, most of the paint had chipped off. Other uses had the same experience. We all had to get our boards repainted in the gorge. The builder changed their painting process to fix the problem.

The good news is that most dealers, and the builders behind them, are good at honoring warranties, and even sometimes honoring fixes after the warranty periods. This all makes for good business. Nobody wants to go out of business, and many (or most) will eat costs if it means keeping present and future business. If somebody's quality is so bad that is not profitable to fix their quality problems, then they will, and should, not be in the business in the first place.

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gorgesailor said..

Sandman1221 said..
So who makes the JP MagicRides and Goya Bolts?, overall they were well made in my opinion, though the first Bolt had some pin holes on the edges and cutouts that were not a smooth curve on the vertical (a little wavey), but Goya got me a replacement right away and it was perfect!

Cobra made both.

Thanks gorgesailer, I think!?

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philn said..
Overall I agree with Mark _australia. The only comment I'll add is that my Quatro boards have been above average strength compared to other brands I've owned. (Starboard I'm looking at you!)

Nah there all the same.

The breadth of this conversation comes down to quality control. As business and its manufacturing ramps/scales up, QC becomes increasingly important particularly where a market is forever expecting innovation. Add to this issues around maintaining knowledgeable staff on a production line who understand what they are looking at and QC becomes one of the most difficult if not overlooked areas of production.

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Mark _australia said..
quatro^^ Never repaired one.

Starboard on the other hand...... phew......

In all fairness I suppose when Quatro sells one board Starboard sell twenty more or less, so it's all relative.

But Quatro quality/strentgh/durability standards can also be higher than starboard at the cobra factory
interesting thread

I used to ride Patriks, they all went soft on the deck (4 of them)

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seanhogan said..

Mark _australia said..
quatro^^ Never repaired one.

Starboard on the other hand...... phew......

In all fairness I suppose when Quatro sells one board Starboard sell twenty more or less, so it's all relative.

But Quatro quality/strentgh/durability standards can also be higher than starboard at the cobra factory
interesting thread

I used to ride Patriks, they all went soft on the deck (4 of them)

I would suggest that Quatro sells many more waveboards than Starboard. All Quatro are premium carbon construction. Starboard sells many different models making their quality more questionable. For example I believe many issues have been reported with their big Phantom raceboards for example, at least for the earlier models. I bet a Phantom doesn't last 30+ years of sailing. Like the Equipe/Mistral One Design did and does.

In the last few years I have seen 5 boards delaminate. They popped and blew up like they were pregnant. 2 were Exocet's and 3 Patrick's. Don't have much experience with Exocet's but the Patrick's I have ridden were beautiful to ride, very nice boards. The one thing all these delammed boards had in common was they were BLACK. All were also 5+ years old so they still lasted quite a while.
I have a older Starboard Flare which is green/white but it's nose (1/3 of the board) is Black. I would never let it sit around in the sun when it wasn't being used as it would get so much hotter to touch than all my other boards. Even white boards with the sanded back look (some black showing through) seem to get as hot as an actual black board.
I don't think black is a good colour for longevity.

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KA360 said..
In the last few years I have seen 5 boards delaminate. They popped and blew up like they were pregnant. 2 were Exocet's and 3 Patrick's. Don't have much experience with Exocet's but the Patrick's I have ridden were beautiful to ride, very nice boards. The one thing all these delammed boards had in common was they were BLACK. All were also 5+ years old so they still lasted quite a while.
I have a older Starboard Flare which is green/white but it's nose (1/3 of the board) is Black. I would never let it sit around in the sun when it wasn't being used as it would get so much hotter to touch than all my other boards. Even white boards with the sanded back look (some black showing through) seem to get as hot as an actual black board.
I don't think black is a good colour for longevity.

I dont get why they make black boards either. In the UK its not really an issue, my 2015 Exocet S3 is black and I think I have use that board more times than any other board I've owned. In the UK summer sun I do make sure it is not left in the sun too long as it does become warm. If I stop for a while I leave it on its side so less surface facing the sun.

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seanhogan said..

Mark _australia said..
quatro^^ Never repaired one.

Starboard on the other hand...... phew......

In all fairness I suppose when Quatro sells one board Starboard sell twenty more or less, so it's all relative.

But Quatro quality/strentgh/durability standards can also be higher than starboard at the cobra factory
interesting thread

I used to ride Patriks, they all went soft on the deck (4 of them)

Which Patrik's did you have? I remember on another forum a guy from Capetown having Patrik slalom boards which failed, but that was 5 years ago I guess. It could have been a sun/heat issue with black boards.
Their F-Race is on my shortlist, but that is orange & white, with a bit of black.

ps how many sessions on the boards?

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KA360 said..
In the last few years I have seen 5 boards delaminate. They popped and blew up like they were pregnant.

Is there any saving a board like this or is it done?

^^ depends.... where and how big.
Even then, if its a jumper then probably one season at best after the fix.

And its a $250-$300 job on a board that was worth $600 - $800 before it delam'd. Usually advise retirement.

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KA360 said..
In the last few years I have seen 5 boards delaminate. They popped and blew up like they were pregnant. 2 were Exocet's and 3 Patrick's. Don't have much experience with Exocet's but the Patrick's I have ridden were beautiful to ride, very nice boards. The one thing all these delammed boards had in common was they were BLACK. All were also 5+ years old so they still lasted quite a while.
I have a older Starboard Flare which is green/white but it's nose (1/3 of the board) is Black. I would never let it sit around in the sun when it wasn't being used as it would get so much hotter to touch than all my other boards. Even white boards with the sanded back look (some black showing through) seem to get as hot as an actual black board.
I don't think black is a good colour for longevity.

My Goya Bolt was getting flexible spots along the concave deck ridge from where the mast would hit it. The small areas (1/2" wide x 1-3" long) were flexible using firm finger pressure in my living room, so no cracks just the thin carbon deck flexing because it was not bonded to the eps anymore since the eps had been compressed from the mast impact. Did not think it was a big issue, until I was doing the same flex test in the Florida sun, the areas on the deck ridge that were flexible with firm finger pressure in my living room were a lot more flexible and a larger area was flexible when I flexed the area in the sun. The deck was painted black in those areas and they were noticeably hot to the touch in the sun. That is when I decided to cover that whole area with white dual density deck padding.

Now someone is probably going to say you need have those spots opened up and repaired, but time will tell, so far deck is good and the dual density deck padding adds strength and of course protection to those small dented areas because my foot pressure gets spread out by the padding.

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PhilUK said..

seanhogan said..

Mark _australia said..
quatro^^ Never repaired one.

Starboard on the other hand...... phew......

In all fairness I suppose when Quatro sells one board Starboard sell twenty more or less, so it's all relative.

But Quatro quality/strentgh/durability standards can also be higher than starboard at the cobra factory
interesting thread

I used to ride Patriks, they all went soft on the deck (4 of them)

Which Patrik's did you have? I remember on another forum a guy from Capetown having Patrik slalom boards which failed, but that was 5 years ago I guess. It could have been a sun/heat issue with black boards.
Their F-Race is on my shortlist, but that is orange & white, with a bit of black.

ps how many sessions on the boards?

the slalom V2's 92/100/115/128, huge soft spot between pads and mast track.
Repair guy showed me they were barely "glued" on and also sanded down far too much. (recessed deck didn't help)
no idea of how many sessions !

haven't heard of stories like that since, but mind you they not sold over here anymore !
awesome bards to ride though !!! a delight blast in heavy chop !

Thanks Sean. I guess they have fixed the issues since then, otherwise they (PD) wouldnt be in business. Also another reason to not buy a board with a recessed deck, its harder to maintain a constant pressure whilst sanding.

Better than new, awesome repair job by Master craftsman Imax. Many thanks.

Beautiful repair

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Sandman1221 said..

gorgesailor said..

Sandman1221 said..
So who makes the JP MagicRides and Goya Bolts?, overall they were well made in my opinion, though the first Bolt had some pin holes on the edges and cutouts that were not a smooth curve on the vertical (a little wavey), but Goya got me a replacement right away and it was perfect!

Cobra made both.

Thanks gorgesailer, I think!?

Yep, A lot of people don't realize that like 95% of commonly available production boards from the last 15 years or so are made in the Cobra factory.

To my knowledge Kinetic produces these brands:

AV
Simmer
Futurefly
FMX

all other brands are cobra. I have had a lot of cobra boards and still have some of them but my slalomboards are AV now and the quality of the kinetic produced boards are just way better. Have an 6 months starboard iqfoil and it is not holding up nearly as good as the AV's. Just my two cents

I wonder if the Future Fly IQfoil boards are made at Kinetic or just a rebranded Cobra production?

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Kasper79 said..
To my knowledge Kinetic produces these brands:

AV
Simmer
Futurefly
FMX

all other brands are cobra.

AHD are made in Tunisia.

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Grantmac said..
I wonder if the Future Fly IQfoil boards are made at Kinetic or just a rebranded Cobra production?

The word on the street is that for the time being they are from cobra, because cobra hasn't been able to deliver a good enough form to Kinetic, so they can make their own. But if iq should be one design the layup has to be same. If one of factories produces a stiffer board then the other, then the top sailors will be on the better one.

For the time being they are cobra made, under starboard licence and rebranded to order.
Brands are now allowed to make their own (it's called the white board program) as long as it's same construction as the Original IQ

Boards can be the same construction but with better attention to detail (properly wrapped vs bogged rails etc), which is what I'd expect from Kinetic.

The WIndtech brand is also made at the Kinetic factory in Vietnam and the attention to detail and quality has been outstanding on both light construction slalom / fast freeride boards and wave board layups.