My 2020 Fanatic Falcons 97 & 115 are well designed and made.

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RichardG said..

Imax1 said..

AUS4 said..

RichardG said..
Does not Cobra build as a service provider to the lay up and other specifications of the brand (or badge engineered manufacturer) ? It is easy to blame the service provider but surely brands have some specifications to which the service provider will meet. What is the brand and the board ? Layup ? Specifications ?

True.

But you have to remember , Cobra doesn't make JP boards because they are the best , it's because they are the cheapest for an acceptable product . It's JPs specification on layup and build process but they can't check quality control on all stages on every board , and if Cobra can get away with bogging over a dodgy build , they will . They are pumping boards out by the hundreds , every day . Time is money and every minute matters . There is not a windsurfing enthusiast painstakingly with a small sanding block getting things perfect . It's more like an underpaid worker with a large sanding machine hooking into it while getting yelled at to go faster . Then the bog guys cover everything up and the painters make it look pretty .
You may get a perfect one or one like above .
Ps . When I gouged out the bog there was a gap of 3mm along the back , from edge to edge , where the top and bottom of the board wasn't joined . During the build , someone would have known of this and just bogged it up .

JP should be approached on this. Why not bag JP rather than Cobra ? Suggest you open up another thread and bag JP. Surely they are responsible as branded manufacturer, and I see you are making assumptions here on the factual basis of the matter but if there is a defect by way of error or omission in the performance by Cobra of the specification that can be sorted out between JP and Cobra. QA/QC may vary depending on the requirements of JP too.

I'm bagging Cobra because they made it . I have owned a few older well built JP boards and I like them . It's not JPs fault in the example above , its Cobras . I'm sure JP didn't ask for the layers to be sanded through and then get filled with bog . As you state JP would accept a number of dodgy builds for what they are paying for , so ultimately they are also responsible.

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JakeNN said.. That's the problem .. I would rather a board that has been refined, tested and selected by world's leading pros as the best design to use as the template for my production board.

Well I think you need to come see what custom guys do.

Firstly, if you think you're getting that, then you are very very wrong. They test the hell out of a 70L and 80L ish waveboard and its great.
Then the engineers get hold of it and skimp on material stuff and much as possible. Then the marketing guys change the shape a bit and force changes to make it trendy. Whether is quad, or 5 boxes, or cutouts or assy, or some other crap they are scared the competitor will do next season. Its not what the pro selected. Nor the shaper in many cases.
And then they force use of substandard things like bio resin to suck u in. Its only gotta last 13mths for them,...
Meanwhile the pro is riding the good version, usually a custom made by one of 2 or 3 big guys like Quatro and it is NOTHING like what you will get in a production board.

The smaller and bigger versions of that 70 or 80L will have NO prototype so if you think your 100L board rides anything like the 70L that was "refined, tested and selected by world's leading pros as the best design" then you are sadly misled. If you think a girl can get a decent 60L - likewise.


Secondly, almost all new boards now have the "hard" parts like tail and sharp rails moulded on with bog. Its easier.
In a custom you will have the PVC foam layer vac bagged on ALL of the board and glass etc over ALL of that. Its not easy at the borders, but we do it. Fussily. For the customer. An increasingly-seen trend is make a board with squared-off end then mould on bog for the last 10-15mm. That's why when you bang it lightly on the ground it fails.
I see this crap all the time - and Jake you have no idea what you're talking about. Come around, I'll show you.

I'm the first to say that some production stuff is good - CK over wood for Fanatic, RRD, old JP, RRD , Tabou is amazing. New Severne - likewise. Old starboard wood/carbon - tops. But new Starboard carbon reflex falls to bits, JP 2014-16 with the experiment construction broke, Fanatic slalom with the PVC join in a place that a schoolkid would not design it in. Cobra putting wood in the wrong way with grain across the deck not longitudinal - I've seen it all.

Lastly - $2K ish custom that lasts a few seasons of gorilla like wave use ........ or $3.5K for a production and you might get a couple seasons if you baby it.
If you don't think so, ask a few users of Stoney's,Hoopers, Rossy's or mine. Then you do the math about price vs longevity.

If I lived in Aus I'd have one of your boards in a heartbeat Mark. Heck I live in Canada and I'm still badly tempted after seeing how poorly most production boards are made. Let alone the issue of the bigger boards just not being that well developed.

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Mark _australia said..
Well I think you need to come see what custom guys do.

Firstly, if you think you're getting that, then you are very very wrong. They test the hell out of a 70L and 80L ish waveboard and its great.
Then the engineers get hold of it and skimp on material stuff and much as possible. Then the marketing guys change the shape a bit and force changes to make it trendy. Whether is quad, or 5 boxes, or cutouts or assy, or some other crap they are scared the competitor will do next season. Its not what the pro selected. Nor the shaper in many cases.
And then they force use of substandard things like bio resin to suck u in. Its only gotta last 13mths for them,...
Meanwhile the pro is riding the good version, usually a custom made by one of 2 or 3 big guys like Quatro and it is NOTHING like what you will get in a production board.

The smaller and bigger versions of that 70 or 80L will have NO prototype so if you think your 100L board rides anything like the 70L that was "refined, tested and selected by world's leading pros as the best design" then you are sadly misled. If you think a girl can get a decent 60L - likewise.


Secondly, almost all new boards now have the "hard" parts like tail and sharp rails moulded on with bog. Its easier.
In a custom you will have the PVC foam layer vac bagged on ALL of the board and glass etc over ALL of that. Its not easy at the borders, but we do it. Fussily. For the customer. An increasingly-seen trend is make a board with squared-off end then mould on bog for the last 10-15mm. That's why when you bang it lightly on the ground it fails.
I see this crap all the time - and Jake you have no idea what you're talking about. Come around, I'll show you.

I'm the first to say that some production stuff is good - CK over wood for Fanatic, RRD, old JP, RRD , Tabou is amazing. New Severne - likewise. Old starboard wood/carbon - tops. But new Starboard carbon reflex falls to bits, JP 2014-16 with the experiment construction broke, Fanatic slalom with the PVC join in a place that a schoolkid would not design it in. Cobra putting wood in the wrong way with grain across the deck not longitudinal - I've seen it all.

Lastly - $2K ish custom that lasts a few seasons of gorilla like wave use ........ or $3.5K for a production and you might get a couple seasons if you baby it.
If you don't think so, ask a few users of Stoney's,Hoopers, Rossy's or mine. Then you do the math about price vs longevity.

Spot on

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JakeNN said..

Flying Dutchman said..
Customs ... made exactly to your specifications.

That's the problem .. I would rather a board that has been refined, tested and selected by world's leading pros as the best design to use as the template for my production board.

You would be missing out on some local knowledge but you could always ask a custom board builder to clone a mass production board. Better construction, lower price and the board you think you want. Not sure if they would want to do it though?

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JakeNN said..

Flying Dutchman said..
Customs ... made exactly to your specifications.

That's the problem .. I would rather a board that has been refined, tested and selected by world's leading pros as the best design to use as the template for my production board.

This could also be a problem. The board can be the perfect board for the tester but not for 90% of the weekend warriors who use them. Custom builders might not have top PWA testers but most have been in he business for a long time. Even more, if you are lucky enough that the shaper sails where you do, chances are that board will perform better at your spots than a production board.

i prefer to have a board 200 grams heavier but more durable. 200 grams of carbon or glass with epoxy can give a lot of strength.

Think Jake must be the side kick from "Two & a half men".

Not the brightest colour on the chart.

I am sure all brands have had issues with Cobra over the years and they have been resolved,but l have owned 4 different brands that went soft between the straps or the bottom delaminated. There was a time about 5 years ago that a now popular Slalom board had serious issues with build quality,every second one which turned up at our local had repairs to the deck. I have a 2009 Naish sp sp which is in excellent condition and yet this 4 year old board is falling apart. Following pictures are after Imax had an inspection. The delamination on the deck is between the foam layers not the outer shell.

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init9999 said.. You would be missing out on some local knowledge but you could always ask a custom board builder to clone a mass production board. Better construction, lower price and the board you think you want. Not sure if they would want to do it though?

Do it all the time:
"here is my XYZ 82L. Can I get the same thing with a couple more litres and just a smidge better turning?"

Done. And yes, 300g heavier but lasts a LOT longer. Cheaper too. What's not to like?

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Mark _australia said..

init9999 said.. You would be missing out on some local knowledge but you could always ask a custom board builder to clone a mass production board. Better construction, lower price and the board you think you want. Not sure if they would want to do it though?

Do it all the time:
"here is my XYZ 82L. Can I get the same thing with a couple more litres and just a smidge better turning?"

Done. And yes, 300g heavier but lasts a LOT longer. Cheaper too. What's not to like?

You might need a bigger shed!

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nbr said..
I am sure all brands have had issues with Cobra over the years and they have been resolved,but l have owned 4 different brands that went soft between the straps or the bottom delaminated. There was a time about 5 years ago that a now popular Slalom board had serious issues with build quality,every second one which turned up at our local had repairs to the deck. I have a 2009 Naish sp sp which is in excellent condition and yet this 4 year old board is falling apart. Following pictures are after Imax had an inspection. The delamination on the deck is between the foam layers not the outer shell.

Did you prosecute any claims for warranty in writing with full particulars ? What was the JP reply ? Care to share the JP position ? You may be aware but consumer warranties may actually potentially survive longer than the stated warranty by JP unless there are other factors voiding or abrogating the consumer warranties. Did you or other owners approach the retailer who sold you the board(s) ? It is interesting airing these matters on seabreeze but prosecution of your or the other consumer's claim against the retailer/dealer is the best course.

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Orange Whip said..
Here's the secret to preventing this happening to you. Go and get a M-F job. That way your gear will never see enough water time to fail. Geez, I've got a trailer load of cobra built boards. They all look awesome.

I'm off to buy a Massey Ferguson tractor now. Doesn't need water time & it's already a proven status. Your clan of Cobra loaded boards on the trailer(without getting on the water) will never last the time a M.F. has & they're still going strong! Your Cobras will have washed away, dissolved into the soil (more like contamination issues leeching into the soil) & Wo be me. I'll still be plugging away on me ol' M.F.

Put em' side be side for 50yrs. See the outcome when we return. The tractors still there, your trailer may still be there. Your boards won't be.

BTW no thieving allowed for the 50yr. duration. Yeh like that's going happen.

Thanks for the advice. Go M.F.

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RichardG said..

nbr said..
I am sure all brands have had issues with Cobra over the years and they have been resolved,but l have owned 4 different brands that went soft between the straps or the bottom delaminated. There was a time about 5 years ago that a now popular Slalom board had serious issues with build quality,every second one which turned up at our local had repairs to the deck. I have a 2009 Naish sp sp which is in excellent condition and yet this 4 year old board is falling apart. Following pictures are after Imax had an inspection. The delamination on the deck is between the foam layers not the outer shell.

Did you prosecute any claims for warranty in writing with full particulars ? What was the JP reply ? Care to share the JP position ? You may be aware but consumer warranties may actually potentially survive longer than the stated warranty by JP unless there are other factors voiding or abrogating the consumer warranties. Did you or other owners approach the retailer who sold you the board(s) ? It is interesting airing these matters on seabreeze but prosecution of your or the other consumer's claim against the retailer/dealer is the best course.

In the top pic I just sanded through the paint and the bog fell out . They didn't even stuff the bog into the void ! Any carbon that may have been there was sanded away . That's what I call dodgy and shouldn't happen on a premium build board . Or any for that matter .
In the second pic I cut a inch hole to see what happened . Strange ! It delaminated a few mm under the foam . It was a smooth squashed finish on both surfaces . Not a bubbly break like if you broke the foam . I've never seen that . Odd and I cant explain . Its almost like a layer of thin eps over the blank eps . Surely it couldn't be ? It would give me nightmares if when machining the blank there was a bit on the top missing and they badly stuck more on the top ? Please tell me this didn't happen .Its a huge effected area from mast track back to foot straps . Mmmmmm?

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redrabbitz said..

Put em' side be side for 50yrs. See the outcome when we return. The tractors still there, your trailer may still be there. Your boards won't be.
BTW no thieving allowed for the 50yr. duration. Yeh like that's going happen.
Thanks for the advice. Go M.F.

I don't get it .. can you please re-explain your point.

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JakeNN said..

redrabbitz said..

Put em' side be side for 50yrs. See the outcome when we return. The tractors still there, your trailer may still be there. Your boards won't be.
BTW no thieving allowed for the 50yr. duration. Yeh like that's going happen.
Thanks for the advice. Go M.F.

I don't get it .. can you please re-explain your point.

Tractors are stronger than windsurfers ?

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Imax1 said..

RichardG said..

nbr said..
I am sure all brands have had issues with Cobra over the years and they have been resolved,but l have owned 4 different brands that went soft between the straps or the bottom delaminated. There was a time about 5 years ago that a now popular Slalom board had serious issues with build quality,every second one which turned up at our local had repairs to the deck. I have a 2009 Naish sp sp which is in excellent condition and yet this 4 year old board is falling apart. Following pictures are after Imax had an inspection. The delamination on the deck is between the foam layers not the outer shell.

Did you prosecute any claims for warranty in writing with full particulars ? What was the JP reply ? Care to share the JP position ? You may be aware but consumer warranties may actually potentially survive longer than the stated warranty by JP unless there are other factors voiding or abrogating the consumer warranties. Did you or other owners approach the retailer who sold you the board(s) ? It is interesting airing these matters on seabreeze but prosecution of your or the other consumer's claim against the retailer/dealer is the best course.

In the top pic I just sanded through the paint and the bog fell out . They didn't even stuff the bog into the void ! Any carbon that may have been there was sanded away . That's what I call dodgy and shouldn't happen on a premium build board . Or any for that matter .
In the second pic I cut a inch hole to see what happened . Strange ! It delaminated a few mm under the foam . It was a smooth squashed finish on both surfaces . Not a bubbly break like if you broke the foam . I've never seen that . Odd and I cant explain . Its almost like a layer of thin eps over the blank eps . Surely it couldn't be ? It would give me nightmares if when machining the blank there was a bit on the top missing and they badly stuck more on the top ? Please tell me this didn't happen .Its a huge effected area from mast track back to foot straps . Mmmmmm?

Sounds poorly constructed and not fit for purpose. I seriously doubt Cobra intentionally does this but I guess errors or omissions are made like this which constitute defects. Given the evidence has anyone got anything back from the retailer that sold these dodgy boards ? If not it is really a case of the customer not pursuing his or her rights. Who was the retailer ? Did the owner make a complaint for these latent defects ?

I helped a friend fix a big brand name SUP once and they had badly glued pieces of EPS together. I found more than 1 glue join and this is where the problems were. Maybe epoxy dosnt stick to the glue they had used to glue the EPS together with?

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Imax1 said..

JakeNN said..

redrabbitz said..

Put em' side be side for 50yrs. See the outcome when we return. The tractors still there, your trailer may still be there. Your boards won't be.
BTW no thieving allowed for the 50yr. duration. Yeh like that's going happen.
Thanks for the advice. Go M.F.

I don't get it .. can you please re-explain your point.

Tractors are stronger than windsurfers ?

I'm guessing it was more to do with not heeding Mum's advice about not messing with Major Tom.

Cobra and Kinetic made what board brands??

Kinetic
- Tabou
- Simmer

Cobra
- Starboard
- JP

??

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ADinis said..
Cobra and Kinetic made what board brands??

Kinetic
- Tabou
- Simmer
FUTURE FLY

Cobra
- Starboard
- JP

??

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seanhogan said..

ADinis said..
Cobra and Kinetic made what board brands??

Kinetic
- Tabou
- Simmer
FUTURE FLY
FMX
AV Boards

Cobra
- Starboard
- JP

??

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seanhogan said..

ADinis said..
Cobra and Kinetic made what board brands??

Kinetic
- Tabou
- Simmer
- FUTURE FLY
- FMX
- AV Boards

Cobra
- Starboard
- JP
- Fanatic

??

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John340 said..

seanhogan said..

ADinis said..
Cobra and Kinetic made what board brands??

Kinetic
- Tabou
- Simmer
- FUTURE FLY
- FMX
- AV Boards

Cobra
- Starboard
- JP
- Fanatic
-Quatro
-Goya
-Naish
-NSP
-Exocet
-i99
-RRD
-KT Surfing
-Mistral
-Surftech

??

cobrainter.com/assets/downloads/Innovations-in-surfboard-manufacturingtechnologies-from-COBRA-international-2.pdf

Av Boards are made in the Kinetic factory, and I honestly have never seen such a well made, well finished board.
Aurelio is so confident, that he is giving a 2 year construction warranty!!!!!

So the new collection that AV-Boards is going to introduce in beginning of 2022 features the same super strong and superlight technology that allows AV-Boards to give 2 years warranty on all the boards of the range, the same superlight paint process in order to save weight but still having super trendy artwork on the boards, and with many improvement in small details which will make the difference.

www.avboards.com/new-2022-av-boards-collection/

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hi, someone can tell me who produces the boards for Patrik?

How about Fanatic and Exocet?

My Kinetic built Simmer convinced me I wouldn't be buying another Cobra board unless it was at heavy discount and lightly used. From what I've read Kinetic built boards have only gotten better since then (2017).

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ADinis said..
Cobra and Kinetic made what board brands??

Kinetic
- Tabou
- Simmer

Cobra
- Starboard
- JP

??

Fanatic is cobra made too.

Notes on windsurf boards.

1) We can have light boards which are well made, and I've had several from the Cobra factory, and under many different brands. The one board I had a warranty claim on was made in a different factory. I have several old boards made at the Cobra factory which are still going strong. I have three recent ones as well.

2) A good construction can be lightweight AND strong. A heavier construction can actually be weaker if the cheaper materials are used and where little sanding of excess materials occurs. A good construction takes time, in terms of labour costs. And that's why most boards are not made in rich western countries.

3) Cobra are a manufacturing institution, based in Thailand, where many laminated products including our windsurf boards are made to the brand label's specifications. - This means some breakages or other failures are down to the brand's designer's layup specifications.

4) But some people will be unlucky with that 'Friday afternoon board' where the worker absent-mindedly sanded a seam too much or else just didn't care. If that neglect then caused a failure then that should be then a warranty claim, and your first call will be to the shop or online retailer who sold you the board. If the board is more than one year old, then you won't get much help because, after one year, it's often down to wear and tear, or owner abuse.

5) We do need to talk about abuse. Some windsurfers break boards regularly. Sometimes it's the same guys, who are just heavy footed, or heavy on their gear, and the average board structure - which might work just fine for your average 70-90kgs sailor - is not built for them. My advice to you serial board breakers is to go to a custom builder for a heavy duty construction. I suspect you may still break those boards

6) Many other windsurfers are learners, and they catapult a lot, usually smashing board noses. This can be heartbreaking when it happens to a new board, but the real answer is to learn not to catapult. Harsh, I know, but true.

7) And there's maybe a third type of windsurfer, who doesn't treat his equipment well and the damage seen later could have started through careless transport and storage - or after an accident that was conveniently forgotten about, and where self blame is never acknowledged.

8 ) Am I sticking up for the Cobra factory? Yeah. Most of their products turn out just fine, are very well presented, and the world would be a worse or more expensive place without them. But, for sure, if you can get a good board from a local custom builder, then that is a great alternative too.