Select to expand quote

Pcdefender said..
Is a current model 7m M5 sail any faster than a 2012 NP Evo 7m - i doubt it.

Have you even tried any of the Mach sails on the correct masts?

I picked up a ga race sail the other day. My back is still hurting.
Wtf are they thinking making them like that? And wtf are people thinking buying them?
Does not compute.

Select to expand quote

sheddweller said..
I picked up a ga race sail the other day. My back is still hurting.
Wtf are they thinking making them like that? And wtf are people thinking buying them?
Does not compute.

In what way did you find they where bad ? I had a GA a few years ago and found it cranky .

Select to expand quote

sheddweller said..
I picked up a ga race sail the other day. My back is still hurting.
Wtf are they thinking making them like that? And wtf are people thinking buying them?
Does not compute.

Agree, the 7.1m from around 2016 to 17 that i tried felt very heavy.

Select to expand quote

SurferKris said..

Pcdefender said..
Is a current model 7m M5 sail any faster than a 2012 NP Evo 7m - i doubt it.

Have you even tried any of the Mach sails on the correct masts?

I tried the M4 7m and it felt very light in the hands, sort of breathed especially well.

I have owned 3 late model race sails and not noticed any real improvement in speed.

If new sails are faster the improvement is micro.

Select to expand quote

Pcdefender said.
I tried the M4 7m and it felt very light in the hands, sort of breathed especially well.

Yes, that is my impression too. So what is the problem?

Select to expand quote

Pcdefender said..
Sails started to get really good around 2011 to 2012. Since then, improvements if any have been micro.

Is a current model 7m M5 sail any faster than a 2012 NP Evo 7m - i doubt it.

The reduction in battens to 7 for race sails has dropped the weight slightly but no doubt at some cost to stability especially in stronger conditions.

A sail is not like a car engine where you can add horsepower through technology.

Most of the improvements from one year to the next are just claims.

Pete, I withdraw my comment that everything you post lacks credibility.
When you talk direct from experience it's much better than when you post stuff from conspiracy sites.

Select to expand quote

sheddweller said..
I picked up a ga race sail the other day. My back is still hurting.
Wtf are they thinking making them like that? And wtf are people thinking buying them?
Does not compute.

Let me guess, the amount of downhaul tension required.
A lad here has them various versions over the years. 3 or so years ago he broke a ratchet extension handle trying to get enough on. He is fast on them though.

I bought a 7.0 Evo IV for 90 dollars out of boredom

2012 model, i think.

I have both a M2 7.0 and Patrik 7.0 proto to test it against.

I did not like the other two due to their size but here's s hoping.

Friday might be a good day to test so long as no gusts above 15 knots

And an RRD mast that suits neither sail, that should be interesting...

Correct - a 460 100 percent Firewig mast.

So long as it rotates ok all good

So this thread should really be called "Sails that rotate ok and feel crap"

How can you tell the difference between sail technology when you are using the incorrect masts?

I've just got a few seasons under my belt now, intermediate i guess.

This year I bought an Ezzy 8.5 Cheetah and it is all i have used this season. 18 sails so far.
10-18kts seabreeze
It feels easy to use. Easier than how i remember my smaller sails were.

I am 65kg. On an RS1 200ltr board. It is flat water sailing where i am.
I used it on a Mistral Explosion 140ltr board when the RS1 was out of action, and it was a bit of work. SInking the board if i stuffed up a turn.
But the 8.5 on the big 200ltr board is no problem as I usually make a smooth turn with it on that board and keep going.
Hang and she's off again full speed (20kts feels like full speed to me anyway - how fast can these boards go, anyone know?)

Dmobbsy - my top speed on a Cheetah 8.5 was just over 28mph (25kt) and I used to hit that speed with it pretty consistently on both a big slalom board and a carbon Kona longboard, beam reaching in 16-18kt wind. Off the wind I might have pushed it a little harder but not much. A more aggressive sailor I'm sure could get more out of it but eventually the lack of stability and the drag of a big sail limits top end. If the RS1 you're referring to is the RS1 Convertible it probably has a higher top end than the smaller Explosion because you can ride the fin more easily with the mastfoot further back. My best speeds with the Cheetah were with an SDM Mauisails 490 rather than the RDM Hookipa but at 100kg I naturally favor a stouter mast than you would prefer, probably. I now use a four-cam Sailworks NX 8.6 which is both faster and more stable than the Cheetah, but it's a little heavier and more work to rig.

To go back to the "feel" discussion, I think it depends on what you want from a sail. I love the big stuff. I mostly foil nowadays but even there I prefer charging around on an 8.5 in a steady 10-12 to wrestling with a 5.7 in a gusty 12-18. My favorite thing is still sailing that 8.6 in flat water on a big fin, but then the feel is mostly about the fin's flex and AoA - the sail is just steady power. It is much steadier now that I have the proper Lightstick mast for it, because the twist is more progressive at proper downhaul settings.

Select to expand quote

Awalkspoiled said../quote]

Great info, thanks.

The feel. To me starts on the beach rigging. If i have a **** time rigging (we rig on the beach, if it goes bad, it can go real bad), it can stuff up my state of mind and then the session.
The Ezzy is great for that, super quick and easy to rig right.

Also, i know of guys here with smaller sails and boards that are not getting out there atall when i am, they might get 5-10 sessions a season. When i'm looking to get 100 sessions in a good season (which is now never in new normal wacky weather)
So, to me, the 8.5 feels waaaaaay better than no sailing atall.

Old RS1 board, not convertible. 40% Chinook SDM mast.
I was using RS1 fin but now using G10 55cm pointer.

I use to own a 8.5 Loft Switchblade, which I used with a Mistral 137, a good combo in 10 to 15kts. I now free foil with a 6m wave sail and Alien 125 in these conditions. I wouldn't go back to the big windsurfing gear. I retired my 8.5 and 7.7. I rarely use my 7 but still enjoy the 6 2.

Had a 5 minute sail of the 2015 Switchblade and it felt very big and heavy. Horrible actually.

The 2015 6.8m Switchblade that i used for a year felt the opposite - smallish and light.

The Switchblades are fast but you need to change down in size if caught out in too much wind as their leech is tight.

I could feel a difference in size between my 6.8 Loft and 7m M2.

7m sails start to feel on the big size at least for my size.

How can you identify that the .2 square metres was the difference and not all the other aspects of each sail, like draft, stability, leach tension, etc, or different conditions?

I forgot in my post to mention it was the 7.8m i tried

No doubt the heavier components and not enough downhaul it had when i used it were a factor.

It felt like sailing the QE2 compared to the 6.8.

Rigged the 7.0 NP 2012 RSR yesterday with the 460 RRD mast on the grass and with less than 10 knots blowing it rotated well.

Can't wait till Friday to give it a go.

It felt really light on the grass also.

Says 463 luff but i am going to try 471 as the foot was level with the bottom of the extension at 466 and i do not like the foot dragging in the water.

I used the 7m NP RSR today in winds averaging around 16 knots.

Lots of downhaul but struggled a bit for power in the lulls so let 5mm off and perfect.

Had a few runs before i let the downhaul off with French Nick on his 7.5m proto Severne race sail but he was faster by maybe 5 percent.

When the wind dropped a bit and with less downhaul i had more speed but then he was struggling for power.

Is it any slower than my other two 7m race sails?

Felt i was going identical speed.

The M2 feels lighter and has a bit more fullness in the luff than the NP.

Similar with the Patrik,a bit fuller in the luff.

Overall i strongly dislike 7m sails as my 110 sits a lot lower in the water.

Sailed till around 7pm after dropping the downhaul further but bottom line i do not like the QE2 feel of large sails.

Extended my older model Enigma boom that i fixed and cutdown to around 176cms by putting a North Aero extension over the arms and fixing it with tape and two nut and bolts and i have to say the boom felt like a rock.

Hey Pete have you tried going to a smaller board ,when you sail feels big ?
why I ask is the other week I was on my 110 Patrik with a Maui venom 7,0 which it handles nicely
I was starting to bounce a little as the wind came up ,too stuffed to change sails ,so switch to a smaller 100 litre Exocet slalom board ,because it was a smaller surface area the extra power of the 7,0 could escape easier through the board ,so it didn't feel as draggy .
and it was easier to handle .Speed also increased .
The Mauis are very light for their size ,I have the 100 venom mast to suit it ,it also has 8 battens .it feels lighter in the hand than my 7,0 SCR simmer 8 batten race sail that has torn and broke battens big crash .simmer to me was a faster sail ,but heavy built .

A bigger sail with a smaller board can feel nice.

I tried a 7m on my 100 litre once before and i was surprised it felt ok. Helps to power the board up if the wind is a little light.

I still dislike anything bigger than 5.6 unless the wind is less than 15 knots.

My 110 Patrik gybes like a dog unless you have excellent technique which i do not.

As the years go by i am thinking a Fox 105 is the board for me.

Gybing is such a big part of the enjoyment of windsurfing and the Fox is so much easier to do a planing gybe on than all slalom boards I've been on.

Select to expand quote

Subsonic said..
I can relate completely with a hatred of big sails, but 7m is really a medium sail so far as race sails go. My 7m is my go to sail for 18-23ish knots. It feels so light compared to a 7.8m/8.6m.

maybe spend some more time at the gym.

I totally agree about the gym

Select to expand quote

Pcdefender said..
Used my 7m Mach 2 a few days ago in 10 knots up to 20 knots and the physicality of it compared to my next sail size down a 5.6m was really stark.

7.6 Naish Indy is an amazing 2-cam sail. It is so well balanced that has no weight when on the water.
Even easy to do light wind helitacks, 360s and other moves. I'm through the second one now. Unfortunately, Naish stopped making it :-(
I'm 64 kg and 165cm tall.

I got stuck at Peli Point today with my 5.6 and 110 and it took me till dark to make the 1500 metres back upwind.

Never planed once after the wind dropped to 10 to 14 knots.

Definitely would have got going on one of my 7m sails.

You live and learn.

Or as the saying goes: "Go big or go home"

Why not sail on the coast with clean wind and smaller sails.
Seriously it's WA.

From the North website....

Simple rule: a heavier sailor needs to take a larger sail size to get planning in the same wind compared to a lightweight.Rough indication for the biggest sail size: to get going in the same wind a 10 kg heavier guy requires a 1 sqm larger sail.Max. sail size vs. body weight:
The larger the sail, the heavier and the more "sluggish" the rig becomes. In addition, larger sails require stiffer masts to keep the surface "in shape". A heavy rider provides more "counter-pressure" to the sail area and mast stiffness than a lightweight. That's why the sail tends to pull you out of balance, gets difficult to control during maneuvers and becomes inefficient to pump when it is too large for your body weight.
In relation to your body weight, there is a maximum sail size that should not be exceeded.
Here are some guidelines:
>> 9.0+: min. body weight 95kg
>> 8.0-8.3: min. body weight 80kg
>> 7.0-7.3: min. body weight 70kgAs a general rule rather use a slightly too small than a too big sail.


DUOTONE Warp_Fin 20.22 ? Your ultimate fin racing sail! (duotonesports.com)

Select to expand quote

Pcdefender said..
>> 7.0-7.3: min. body weight 70kgAs a general rule rather use a slightly too small than a too big sail.

Well, that doesn't sound right at all...

I'm close to 62kg at times and should then not use anything larger than a 6.0-6.3, independent on what board it is on. (!)
For me the break point is at around 11.0 sails, but above that is also fine once fully planning.

Select to expand quote

Pcdefender said..
From the North website....

Simple rule: a heavier sailor needs to take a larger sail size to get planning in the same wind compared to a lightweight.Rough indication for the biggest sail size: to get going in the same wind a 10 kg heavier guy requires a 1 sqm larger sail.Max. sail size vs. body weight:
The larger the sail, the heavier and the more "sluggish" the rig becomes. In addition, larger sails require stiffer masts to keep the surface "in shape". A heavy rider provides more "counter-pressure" to the sail area and mast stiffness than a lightweight. That's why the sail tends to pull you out of balance, gets difficult to control during maneuvers and becomes inefficient to pump when it is too large for your body weight.
In relation to your body weight, there is a maximum sail size that should not be exceeded.
Here are some guidelines:
>> 9.0+: min. body weight 95kg
>> 8.0-8.3: min. body weight 80kg
>> 7.0-7.3: min. body weight 70kgAs a general rule rather use a slightly too small than a too big sail.


DUOTONE Warp_Fin 20.22 ? Your ultimate fin racing sail! (duotonesports.com)

The few years I've been racing has taught me that limiting sail size based purely on rider weight can severely hamper your ability to stay in the race. I would take the advice from north with a rather large dash of salt. Especially given they make no mention of wind speed in the equation. I'm around 65kg, if I were to rig a 7.0 as my "big sail" I will struggle to plane in 15knots of wind, let alone be competitive in a race.


perhaps they are relating this to their own sail range, but talking to people who sail/have sailed North, I don't think they are.