Big sails feel crap

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Created by

Pcdefender > 9 months ago, 30 Jun 2022

Pcdefender

1607 posts

1 Jul 2022 1:54pm

Not the weight that is the problem.

The Severne M2 are super light sails and i use the lightest components.

To do with swing weight and even more to do with when you hit decent wind wind a lightweight will find it quite physically demanding trying to turn the power of a 7m race sail in to forward drive.

I just love the feel of cruising around on a smaller sail looking for gusts rather than avoiding them.

I can sail all day and rarely get tired on my 5.6m

On a 7m i am stuffed in no time and do not enjoy the time much when i am on the water.

SurferKris

495 posts

1 Jul 2022 2:10pm

I still think that you shouldn't have any problem with a 7.0 sail. Sounds like there is something wrong with the tuning, or perhaps you need to try larger sails in order for the 7.0 sail to "feel" light.

There shouldn't be any issue with forward drive when the sail is tuned properly, what mast are you using on the M2?

I've actually done my fastest speeds with a code red 6.7 sail, about 35 knots, used it on the isonic speed board that was around 54liters (if I remember correctly). It did require quite a lot of tuning and custom moving of the front foot straps etc. but is well worth it.

jn1

2683 posts

1 Jul 2022 8:04pm

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Pcdefender said..
To do with swing weight and even more to do with when you hit decent wind wind a lightweight will find it quite physically demanding trying to turn the power of a 7m race sail in to forward drive.

What is sail doing when you have a big (uncomfortable) gust ?. Is the sail going back handed all of a sudden ?

ozzimark

64 posts

1 Jul 2022 6:57pm

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jn1 said..
What is sail doing when you have a big (uncomfortable) gust ?. Is the sail going back handed all of a sudden ?

That's a sign of not enough downhaul, right?

jn1

2683 posts

2 Jul 2022 7:58pm

ozzimark,

Could be a number of tuning reasons (including mast incompatibility). Sails definitely should not be doing this. I would be interested to read Pcdefender's response to my question.

I know a guy who likes the going-back-handed-in-a-gust feeling. He detunes his sails to do it. I hate the feeling.

gavnwend

1373 posts

2 Jul 2022 8:48pm

Race sails liked to be powered up, that's why pwa sailors use them.they compete on the edge & hold no mercy for who they race against. For a average person like me & yourself,you should look for a more user friendly sail, not a full on race sail.it will still be fast but not so demanding to use.Windsurfing should be fun & a good exercise or release, from everyday pressures we all experience.Just enjoy it

Pcdefender

1607 posts

2 Jul 2022 9:05pm

jn1 - i use a RRD Firewig 100 percent 460 with 2 cms of extension. The rotation with this mast is effortless.

The guy who sails at Peli with the French sounding name let me have a go of his almost new M4 7.0 M 6 months ago.

He uses the recommended Apex mast. I think he said he had it rigged with a 460 not a 430.

I was amazed how light the thing was and how i was able to handle the 18 knot gusts with zero backhanded feeling.

Seemingly the M4 model has a significantly improved upper wind range on earlier models but you need to apply lots of downhaul to get the wide wind range.

No doubt the mast helps.

On the last session i used my own 7m M2 i was getting the backhanded feel a lot especially in the gusts which was not enjoyable and you need to use your strength in your backhand to sheet in.

I might try rigging it again with a old 430 Severne 100 percent hard top mast i have just out of curiosity and hopefully the backhanded feel might reduce.

More downhaul as well though honestly i had it rigged with lots the last session.

Awalkspoiled

533 posts

2 Jul 2022 10:46pm

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Pcdefender said..
jn1 - i use a RRD Firewig 100 percent 460 with 2 cms of extension. The rotation with this mast is effortless.

The guy who sails at Peli with the French sounding name let me have a go of his almost new M4 7.0 M 6 months ago.

He uses the recommended Apex mast. I think he said he had it rigged with a 460 not a 430.

I was amazed how light the thing was and how i was able to handle the 18 knot gusts with zero backhanded feeling.

Seemingly the M4 model has a significantly improved upper wind range on earlier models but you need to apply lots of downhaul to get the wide wind range.

No doubt the mast helps.

On the last session i used my own 7m M2 i was getting the backhanded feel a lot especially in the gusts which was not enjoyable and you need to use your strength in your backhand to sheet in.

I might try rigging it again with a old 430 Severne 100 percent hard top mast i have just out of curiosity and hopefully the backhanded feel might reduce.

More downhaul as well though honestly i had it rigged with lots the last session.

Gotta be the mast. The RRD is at the flex-top end of the CC spectrum and Severe is way at the hardtop end. If you can find an older Mauisails, Gaastra, Naish, even Sailworks, you'll be WAY happier even if you can't find the actual severe stick. Severne's are very picky about masts in the middle and larger sizes.

7.0 at my weight (100kg+) is for strong wind - 20-26 but for you it should be your favorite blasting sail in 12-16 and I bet the mast makes a huge difference.

SurferKris

495 posts

3 Jul 2022 3:58am

Yes, it does sound mostly like a mast issue, possibly in combination with poor tuning. A proper mast combined with more downhaul and less outhaul might be the way to go. Try an adjustable outhaul if you don't already have it.

I have a 7.8 M1 and it works very well on a severne mast, I think I have the version just before the Apex mast. The recommended downhaul is spot on (I never use less) and I then use the outhaul to tune for power. That is how I run all my sails, always full downhaul (even in light-wind) and adjust the outhaul for power and angle to the wind.

boardsurfr

2454 posts

3 Jul 2022 11:37am

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Pcdefender said..
jn1 - i use a RRD Firewig 100 percent 460 with 2 cms of extension. The rotation with this mast is effortless.

Too easy rotation could be an indication that the mast is not right. I don't know the Severne race sail, but I remember a PWA slalom sailor and sail tester/developer for a major brand showing how to trim their race sails. He called sails that I had a really hard time to get rotated on shore "just right".

For the race sails I use (Loft), strong gusts never produce backhand pressure. If the pressure moves at all, it's a little bit to the front. That may require using very little outhaul so the batten can touch the boom most of the time, which is how I usually rig the sails.

cammd

QLD

4331 posts

4 Jul 2022 9:37am

A big "over powered" sail running deep downwind is a glorious way to have a blast. Try sailing different angles and you will gain a appreciation for large sails.

jn1

2683 posts

4 Jul 2022 9:04pm

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Pcdefender said..
The rotation with this mast is effortless.

Rotation is not a good indicator (as boardsurfr said). I'm discovering this too being a newbie speed surfer myself.

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Pcdefender said..
On the last session i used my own 7m M2 i was getting the backhanded feel a lot especially in the gusts which was not enjoyable and you need to use your strength in your backhand to sheet in.

Plus I find that I can't trim board properly, as a result I go slow. I can't point up wind at all . When a gust hits, it makes me bear away slightly. I'm fighting the sail. By the time I want to gybe, my back arm muscles are burnt out. I spend the entire session just getting up wind enough to not beach walk, and doing quick tacks in order to stay up wind. Sails like this are no fun !

I think the bigger guys can control these mistuned sails far better than we light weights can. But, for me, the sail needs to be tuned perfectly for maximum enjoyment, speed and time on water.

Do as the guys above have suggested. My recommendation is don't spend money guessing. See if you can borrow a spec mast for your Severne. Rig it up and then take it for a run in the same conditions that causes it to back hand with your original mast. You won't need to use it for very long. 2 runs maybe. You will know immediately. Then, with a big fat grin on your face

, come back in, and rig your old mast. Then go out again. This should nail the fault, plus, you would have learnt something as well.

A sail is just a flappy piece of plastic that will blow away in the wind. A mast makes it happen. good luck !

Jasonwave

158 posts

6 Jul 2022 4:50pm

May I ask, along the lines of this thread : would a Severne Gorilla mast 430 with extension be OK on an Overdive 7,0m ? It seems at the limit of the measurements, plus an allegedly inferior mast albeit the same brand. This is a new sail, and my only large one, so a longer and more expensive Severne mast would only be for this sail. Moderate ability, 80kg, and on a Dyno 105 with 34mm Severne Fox fin (I know, board not really designed for that sail but I dont have room for more boards and my summer hols beach spot has a lagoon side that I want to play in).

Appreciate any thoughts on whether I am going to be way off with this set up. If I need to alter this set up I need to buy now before travelling.

Thank you

SurferKris

495 posts

6 Jul 2022 5:49pm

It depends a bit on which model (year) of the Overdrive that you have, and what cams it currently has in it.
The old ones were SDM only (as far as I know) while the later ones come set-up for SDM but can be changed to rigg on RDM masts (the lower two cams need replacement).

The Gorilla mast is a durable RDM mast. Nothing wrong with it, but it is an RDM mast.

Jasonwave

158 posts

6 Jul 2022 6:01pm

Thank you. The sail is RDM compatible.

sboardcrazy

NSW

8292 posts

7 Jul 2022 7:53am

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Jasonwave said..
May I ask, along the lines of this thread : would a Severne Gorilla mast 430 with extension be OK on an Overdive 7,0m ? It seems at the limit of the measurements, plus an allegedly inferior mast albeit the same brand. This is a new sail, and my only large one, so a longer and more expensive Severne mast would only be for this sail. Moderate ability, 80kg, and on a Dyno 105 with 34mm Severne Fox fin (I know, board not really designed for that sail but I dont have room for more boards and my summer hols beach spot has a lagoon side that I want to play in).

Appreciate any thoughts on whether I am going to be way off with this set up. If I need to alter this set up I need to buy now before travelling.

Thank you

I just changed my 2017 Overdrive to rdm using a Gorilla 430 mast. I love it!

Deeper profile , easier rotation and it feels lighter , more 'alive'. Just my impression, I don't think it is lighter. I'm 65 - 69kgs..
It was the first that I changed.I liked it so much I've now changed all my ODs and Machs to rdm.
I bought blue line rdms but I don't really think I can feel any difference between the Gorilla and blue lines.

boardsurfr

2454 posts

7 Jul 2022 9:33pm

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sboardcrazy said..
I liked it so much I've now changed all my ODs and Machs to rdm.

I really like how our race sails feel on RDMs. But the fastest windsurfer in the US (Boro) had one look at the rigged sails and then exchanged cams to rig it with and SDM to show us what it is supposed to look like. He convinced Nina, who got a couple of SDMs, and now usually uses the sails with SDMs (we ended up with 2 sets of the most used sizes!). Maybe that's why she's beaten my speeds this year

OldGuy3

165 posts

10 Jul 2022 12:11am

Like previous noted. Big is relative to body mass, board volume.
But like OP, dislike "big" sails. And big boards. One of the reasons started foiling.
At 60kg when "fat", big is any board >100L and any sail >5.8M. Largest sail in the quiver is a 6.5M Ezzy Cheetah. For foiling my big sail is 5.5M.

OT. Use to dislike any sail under 4.2M. Twitchy. Impressed with the feel in relatively recently designed smaller sails.

SurferKris

495 posts

10 Jul 2022 1:36am

I think a lot of the dislike for larger sails comes from not spending enough time on tuning them properly, together with the board and fin. Having the wrong mast and being lightweight (relatively) certainly doesn't help. Full downhaul and an adjustable outhaul is what works for me. Too little downhaul and the wrong mast certainly can kill the performance of any sail.

I guess in can take a while to adapt or get used to the feeling of large sails, and I have never really been that happy with the largest sail in my quiver, although that size has changed throughout the years. It is something about being able to change down in sailsize, that makes the second largest sail feel better. For Formula sailing (and my weight at 62-64kg) that meant that sails over 11m^2 felt a bit too large, and for wave sailing even a 5.3 can feel a little too powerful at times. With my sweet-spot in terms of sails size in waves is around 4.7m^2.

But a sail of around 7-7.8 m^2 paired with a a board around 100 liter (with suitable fin) can be a very sweet combination. I can get going very early and it can still handle a lot of wind.

Ben1973

1008 posts

10 Jul 2022 7:32am

Had a great sail with my 9.4 today

sailquik

VIC

6166 posts

10 Jul 2022 11:14am

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SurferKris said..
I think a lot of the dislike for larger sails comes from not spending enough time on tuning them properly, together with the board and fin. Having the wrong mast and being lightweight (relatively) certainly doesn't help. Full downhaul and an adjustable outhaul is what works for me. Too little downhaul and the wrong mast certainly can kill the performance of any sail.

There is some truth in that, but it's a chicken and egg thing. When you have local conditions that are predominantly windy and you don't often get to use the larger sails and boards, you have limited time and incentive to experience and set up that larger gear and get used to it, so it is always going to feel worse.
On my area 90% of my sailing is in over 18 Knots. When I go to Queensland, where 90% of their sailing seems to be under 18 Knots, I am impressed with the local sailors ability to get great performance from their 'big' gear.

Sailing 'big' gear is for desperation or serious racing.

Sailing smaller, efficient gear is for fun, and is often faster in good conditions.

Subsonic

3384 posts

10 Jul 2022 10:27am

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sailquik said..

Sailing 'big' gear is for desperation or serious racing.

Sailing smaller, efficient gear is for fun, and is often faster in good conditions.

Got to agree with that. Your most used gear will always be the best tuned.

When you race, you develop a taste for being over powered, because in a race you generally need to be, just to stay in the game (on the plane) out of a gybe. Rigging the most efficient gear starts to feel too docile when you're used to being on the edge. When just out free sailing, I find it's actually easier to hang onto my fast mates by rigging down a size, but I don't have to worry about wind shadow and areas that are devoid of wind.

But rigging down you don't get as big a hit of dopamine, because you're not crapping your pants as much as usual.

sboardcrazy

NSW

8292 posts

10 Jul 2022 2:07pm

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Subsonic said..

sailquik said..

Sailing 'big' gear is for desperation or serious racing.

Sailing smaller, efficient gear is for fun, and is often faster in good conditions.

But rigging down you don't get as big a hit of dopamine, because you're not crapping your pants as much as usual.

In the chop I used to rig for the lulls and hang on in the gusts.. think I'll be a whoose when I finally get back on the water and rig for the gusts.. I'm going to miss that 'hit' though..

BSN101

2378 posts

10 Jul 2022 2:17pm

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Pcdefender said..
Used my 7m Mach 2 a few days ago in 10 knots up to 20 knots and the physicality of it compared to my next sail size down a 5.6m was really stark.

Packed up after an hour as i was not enjoying sailing despite the wind still being good.

The weight of the 7m M2 is 5.4 kgs the same as my 5.6 Patrik but it feels heavier perhaps as its catching a lot more wind - lol.

Hated it in the 20 knot gusts despite having lots of downhaul.

It was fast enough but its going up for sale now.

Also disliked my Patrik 7m for the very same reason.

On my Patrik 110 with a 37 carbon fin i struggle big time to lift the windward rail with a 7m as i feel the sideways force created by the bigger sail considerably reduces the lift of the board.

With my 5.6 on the same board and fin the lift of the board is much greater which also means sailing upwind is a breeze which adds considerably to the enjoyment of the sport.

The more the windward rail lifts - the easier i find to sail upwind.

Realized i would rather be on / off the plane with my 5.6 than on the plane all the time with my 7m as the feel is so much nicer with my smaller sail.

Going to try my NP Evo 4 6.4m as a light wind option.

Just not convinced anything bigger than 5.6m really works for 70 kg sailors unless the wind is very marginal. 6.4m at a push.

Using a bigger board to get going earlier detracts from the feel less than using a bigger sail.

I see some wing ding or use a foil on the light days which is another option.

If you're having problems with the Patrik sails you really should speak to Patrik or one of the local team sailors. 5.6-7.0 is a big jump in size for any but conditions that had an extreme change. Best to try that mid size rig. 37 fin is on the very upper end for a 110 board and your weight. I find a 38 a bit twitchy when fully powered and I'm 90kg. When my NP V8 sails are feeling sluggish a touch more dh usually lightens them in my hands and allows me to fly effortlessly. Too much kills everything.

Kazza

TAS

2344 posts

12 Jul 2022 10:39am

Weighing 63 kgs & female I used to hate using my 7.0. Found it exhausting. Now it's my most used sail and find it easy to sail. I changed to rdm mast & sail the Severne M4 Overdrive and it's sooo light. The more you sail the bigger sails the more you get used to them and I gather your strength builds up with them the more you use them too. I'm even thinking about getting a 7.8. I'ld rather be planning powered up then trudging along underpowered, hate that feeling, feels like a real letdown sail. My thoughts anyway.
I do have trouble water starting my 7 so the uphaul rope come in very handy, or just perfect your gybes

mark62

509 posts

12 Jul 2022 7:06pm

Thinking about it, there's always been a debate about big sails. I remember 15/20 years ago, regular debates about Formula boards being no fun, to big and clumsy, it was almost like you'd gone to the dark side if you used Formula kit. Personally I had tons of fun on Formula kit, and loved the sensation of full power in UK sea breezes whilst most sat on the beach drinking tea and waiting for wind!!!

Sail size is only relevant to the wind conditions on the day, and for some it means using a big sail, especially if its your only day off and its make or break. For me, 5.4 through to 9.6 and I'm happy using any of them as long as I feel nicely powered up. Given the choice, obviously I'd take my 5.4 and 53ltr speed board every time, but I'd be waiting weeks or even months for that day.

Instead of having big sails, some turn to foiling as a light wind alternative, and I get it, but its just not for me. I much prefer big slalom boards and sails for light wind fun.

Obelix

1149 posts

13 Jul 2022 5:43am

I think it's the sail itself. Some sails are not well designed in every size. Felt floppy, slow, and sometimes I thought like they would break in half.

Ben1973

1008 posts

13 Jul 2022 8:19am

Had a great blast today on my little kit, 7.8overdirve and 120fox in 20knots. Still prefer the 9.4 and big slalom board days.

mariachi76

135 posts

13 Jul 2022 12:20pm

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a 7.0 should be the perfect sail for wind around 15kn for a 70kg rider.
I weigh 80kg, and have all the (Overdrive) M2/M3 range from 6.2/7.0/7.8/8.6 and a Turbo GT 9.2. Get it trimmed right with plenty of downhaul, almost no outhaul.
Yes, they are heavy to waterstart, but once powered up, the stability is just amazing. Get used it it, and after 3 session you'll love it.
I am the other way round, mostly going out with my overdrives on a Fox 105 or iSonic 72cm. Every once and a while I use my Gators for b&j conditions - and struggle with the lack of stability and power (although they are great sails too).
So get used to it, adjust the trim and your stance, and you'll be happy with it.

Macroscien

QLD

6808 posts

15 Jul 2022 10:19am

7.8 is almost all I need for 95% sailing. Works on foil when wind is less the 15 ktn or fin when wind is blowing. 6.4 have a chance few time when gale force wind comes to GC.

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