I do not believe in theories only real cons that the flock are unable to fathom

Looks a good day to try out my 5m today.

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Maddlad said..

Subsonic said..

Pcdefender said..
I remember borrowing a 400 NP flextop mast for my KA 5.6 and honestly i hated it.

Through the lulls the performance was very poor, and the feel was less responsive as in lacking power.

For really powered up sailing off the wind i am sure it would be a lot easier to handle.

My 6.4 with the stiff mast pulls like a horse but i accept it would be easier to hold with a softer mast.

Interestingly, I tried rigging it with a Severne Enigma 430 mast and the rotation was impossible.

With the Maui race mast the 4 cambers rotate in unison with just a moderate pull of the backhand.

Getting 4 cambers to rotate as you flick the sail over without having to pull the backhand in is a bit of a dream.

Doing planing gybes is sure to be easier.

So the only picture im getting here is that your under downhauled "big sail" doesn't work well with just about every mast you've tried, none of which are the actual mast that its meant to be rigged on? Did i miss anything?

You know who this is dont you? Why are you surprised? hahaha :P

Didn't click with me until he mentioned the flock.

Makes sense, only sheeples would believe the propaganda about using matching masts and sails.

Glad to hear your back sailing PCdefender.

Ben Severne has explained this very well. They carefully design the sail for a specific mast and all the testing is done with that mast too. Imagine their frustration when users then think that they can do better than that with any random mast and bend curve...

@Pcdefender: Perhaps you should try with a free-race sail that suits your current masts instead. Free-race sails are usually less sensitive to the tuning, and can often feel like they have a better "power to weight" ratio, compared to full on race sails.

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Maddlad said..

Subsonic said..

Pcdefender said..
I remember borrowing a 400 NP flextop mast for my KA 5.6 and honestly i hated it.

Through the lulls the performance was very poor, and the feel was less responsive as in lacking power.

For really powered up sailing off the wind i am sure it would be a lot easier to handle.

My 6.4 with the stiff mast pulls like a horse but i accept it would be easier to hold with a softer mast.

Interestingly, I tried rigging it with a Severne Enigma 430 mast and the rotation was impossible.

With the Maui race mast the 4 cambers rotate in unison with just a moderate pull of the backhand.

Getting 4 cambers to rotate as you flick the sail over without having to pull the backhand in is a bit of a dream.

Doing planing gybes is sure to be easier.

So the only picture im getting here is that your under downhauled "big sail" doesn't work well with just about every mast you've tried, none of which are the actual mast that its meant to be rigged on? Did i miss anything?

You know who this is dont you? Why are you surprised? hahaha :P

I'm surprised he's lasted as long as this with the new profile. He's been using it for a while now, and a couple of his previous profiles got shut down quite rapidly. I guess it won't be long for this one now, if you follow a few of the more controversial threads in shooting the breeze

Rather windy today on the river with gusts in the mid to high twenties.

Most on 4 to 5.5m sails.

Attempting to gybe around the outer pole in the gusts overpowered with my 5m was fun.

Had a full length rashie and 5mm wetsuit on in mid November in Perth - whatever happened to their global warming theory.

Forgot, the same effect seemingly also causes cooling, silly me

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SurferKris said..
Ben Severne has explained this very well. They carefully design the sail for a specific mast and all the testing is done with that mast too. Imagine their frustration when users then think that they can do better than that with any random mast and bend curve...

I don't know if it has been mentioned on this thread but PWA and Olympic racers get several masts (same size, brand, etc) and pick the one that they feel fits their sail the best (same with fins). Even more, some sailors always position the mast on the same way, for example, the sticker/specs facing the pulleys. That shows how important is to have the right mast.

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WillyWind said..

SurferKris said..
Ben Severne has explained this very well. They carefully design the sail for a specific mast and all the testing is done with that mast too. Imagine their frustration when users then think that they can do better than that with any random mast and bend curve...

I don't know if it has been mentioned on this thread but PWA and Olympic racers get several masts (same size, brand, etc) and pick the one that they feel fits their sail the best (same with fins). Even more, some sailors always position the mast on the same way, for example, the sticker/specs facing the pulleys. That shows how important is to have the right mast.

Yeah and they even run adjustable downhaul with different settings for different masts, because it's easier to get the downhaul precise with the mechanical advantage of adjustable downhaul. Same spec sails and masts but tolerances make them noticeably different (to them).

I've got 2 apex 490 mast and they are both very different, you can't even swap the tops and bottoms as they won't fit and one is much softer than the other so which one did they design there sails to fit?

there's no way they can say their mast work best with their sails unless they have tried every mast with their sails and that goes for any brand. There's always that chance someone's else's mast will suit your sail and style better than the recommend one.

If the rotation of the cambers is good, then the mast has my approval.

If you look at the sails slowboat uses he goes out with his 7 and 7.7m sails with low downhaul in strong wind.

Recommended mast or not the way he rigs his sails is not going to perform for me with so little twist.

Heavier people can use their weight to create twist in the sail possibly.

I do accept the recommended mast is likely going to result in a better overall performance but not everyone can afford them.

Stiffer masts make the sail more powerful from my experience.

Lighter masts break more easily but surprise surprise, feel nicer.

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Pcdefender said..
If the rotation of the cambers is good, then the mast has my approval.

And that's where it all goes wrong, I guess.
A smooth rotation of the cambers should only be an added "bonus", it should never dictate the sail tuning in terms of mast selection and amount of downhaul etc.

Heavy booms also feel crap.....especially for gybes.

I used my cutdown 180 - 230 Enigma on Saturday which weighs only 2.8kgs including lines with my 5,6m, however since i bought a 140 - 190 X9 for my 5m which is a massive 400g lighter including lines at 2.4kgs i have now found myself addicted to its light weight and have started using it for my 5.6 and 6.4 as well.

Not as stiff yes but my rig feels a good bit more throwabout.

I think my gybes are better with the lighter boom and maybe more glide thru the lulls.

Full rig including base using my lightest boom weighs only 9.8 kgs.

I will take my scales down and weigh the rig complete next time to double check.

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SurferKris said..
Ben Severne has explained this very well. They carefully design the sail for a specific mast and all the testing is done with that mast too. Imagine their frustration when users then think that they can do better than that with any random mast and bend curve...

@Pcdefender: Perhaps you should try with a free-race sail that suits your current masts instead. Free-race sails are usually less sensitive to the tuning, and can often feel like they have a better "power to weight" ratio, compared to full on race sails.

But on the other hand, just about no other form of performance sailing craft just sticks to one style of mast bend across the variety of conditions (apart from wind strength).

If you are sailing a racing yacht, you don't use the same mast bend in 10 knots and flat water that you do in 10 knots and lumpy swell and chop. From memory, in a typical dinghy you may go from having the mast set up so that it's got basically no pre-bend (ie the bend with no wind loads or sail control loads applied) to having maybe 100mm, depending on whether you are sailing on smooth watr or flat water. Even in a Laser, you don't use the same mast bend in 12 knots when you are trying to go low and fast, as you do when you are in 12 knots and trying to get maximum pointing.

In most boat classes, you change mast bend (by using fairly static measures such as stay tensions, spreader angle adjustment etc as well as the ones you can adjust on the fly) to the individual crew weight and to the conditions, because that's vastly faster than just using downhaul and outhaul to adjust the mast and nothing else. So why are board rigs any different?

On top of that, there's individual preference. Some of us like a lot of bottom end power in wave sails because we hate struggling in the lulls. I don't care about a sail that loads up the back hand, but others do. Even in strict pop-out one designs like Lasers and Windsurfer LTs, two top-of-the-fleet sailors may dial in different amounts of mast bend, sail depth, twist etc to match their preferences, weaknesses and strengths. And a really good sailor (like the ones Severne probably test their sails with) has different needs to average sailors.

Given all the factors involved in mast bend and sail interaction, it's understandable why some people would feel it's OK to mix and match.

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Pcdefender said..
Heavy booms also feel crap.....especially for gybes.

I used my cutdown 180 - 230 Enigma on Saturday which weighs only 2.8kgs including lines with my 5,6m, however since i bought a 140 - 190 X9 for my 5m which is a massive 400g lighter including lines at 2.4kgs i have now found myself addicted to its light weight and have started using it for my 5.6 and 6.4 as well.

Not as stiff yes but my rig feels a good bit more throwabout.

I think my gybes are better with the lighter boom and maybe more glide thru the lulls.

Full rig including base using my lightest boom weighs only 9.8 kgs.

I will take my scales down and weigh the rig complete next time to double check.

"Only 9.8kgs" says a lot, considering that the original Windsurfer rig from the '60s was about 8-9kg and the '80s rig was about 6.5kg! I know I've said it before, but it's funny how the the industry keeps on saying sails are getting lighter when there seems to be so little evidence for that. It's like the fact that they always claim that wind ranges are getting wider, but they advertise sail quivers that use the same number of sails for the same sort of wind range they did over 30 years ago.

Having got into foiling I have dragged out my old slalom style sails and it really underlines that while heavy sails may not be an issue in steady conditions, they can be a complete PITA in marginal and puffy stuff where you have to balance them through the lulls. I wonder if it's the old issue, where the testers tend to sail at times and places that give better conditions than the end user (who is normally more tied down by their job, home life, other commitments etc) tends to sail in.

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WillyWind said..

I don't know if it has been mentioned on this thread but PWA and Olympic racers get several masts (same size, brand, etc) and pick the one that they feel fits their sail the best (same with fins). Even more, some sailors always position the mast on the same way, for example, the sticker/specs facing the pulleys. That shows how important is to have the right mast.

Some Olympic and PWA sailors definitely do as you describe, but it's not the only way to approach the issue. Several people in the Australian Olympic team DIDN'T get several masts and pick the one that feels best, because at major events some classes are supplied by the organiser and therefore if the sailor cannot adapt their style to the mast they receive, they are stuffed. At least some of Olympic sailors therefore had a policy of taking what they get and learning how to use it. I've also been told first hand (by Tom Slingsby) that the claims that the Olympic Laser guys get to go through a whole stack of masts at the factory were rubbish.

The other factor is that there's rarely "the right mast" and "the wrong mast" since the optimum mast bend changes with a huge variety of factors. Issues like the amount of waves compared to the wind strength, whether you are trying to go high and slower or lower and faster, the amount of wind sheer and other factors affect the desired mast bend. In yachts, the top guys can adjust mast bend (via the stays) from gust to gust, and also within a few seconds depending on the tactical situation. In boards we can't do that, but the fact that adjusting mast bend to the situation irrespective of wind strength changes is such a critical factor in other classes indicates that a lot of the time there's no one "right" bend and other "wrong" bends.

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Tardy said..

makes me want to get a 9.5 cheetah from 2020 that's available locally for around ?400, I'd need to get a suitable mast for it though...

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cheekyrafiki said..

Tardy said..

makes me want to get a 9.5 cheetah from 2020 that's available locally for around ?400, I'd need to get a suitable mast for it though...

I have a 9.5 Cheetah. Run it with a GT 490 w/ ezzy curve. They aren't expensive masts (SDM though).

Select to expand quote

"Only 9.8kgs" says a lot, considering that the original Windsurfer rig from the '60s was about 8-9kg and the '80s rig was about 6.5kg! I know I've said it before, but it's funny how the the industry keeps on saying sails are getting lighter when there seems to be so little evidence for that. It's like the fact that they always claim that wind ranges are getting wider, but they advertise sail quivers that use the same number of sails for the same sort of wind range they did over 30 years ago.

Surely you mean one of these retro remakes of the late early 70s models? I'm seen an early 70s rig and the boom alone must have been around 8kg, it also was laboriously tied in to a single-piece fiberglass mast that must have weighted over 5kg. Granted this was a large rig for the time.

I don't think sails are going to get much lighter than ~2010 models without painful durability compromises, but they are indeed a lot better now. Boards haven't evolved nearly as much in the last decade as sails.

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Chris 249 said..
But on the other hand, just about no other form of performance sailing craft just sticks to one style of mast bend across the variety of conditions (apart from wind strength).

For windsurfing in planing conditions (Formula and Slalom etc) you tune the sail for planing, not for slogging.

In RSX and Bic Techno you will tune on the downhaul, while on the water, similar to sailing boats and dinghies.

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aeroegnr said..

cheekyrafiki said..

Tardy said..

makes me want to get a 9.5 cheetah from 2020 that's available locally for around ?400, I'd need to get a suitable mast for it though...

I have a 9.5 Cheetah. Run it with a GT 490 w/ ezzy curve. They aren't expensive masts (SDM though).

SDM is better with the 8,5 cheetah and lion ,A Real GRUNT sail .I'm getting A 9,5 soon .since this video i now have a 140 Patrik FRace .
It just pops out of the water with a 47 Zfin ,the cheetah is not fussy what brand 490 you buy ,,I have a old north and a new simmer both rig beautiful mate ..

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SurferKris said..

Chris 249 said.....

For windsurfing in planing conditions (Formula and Slalom etc) you tune the sail for planing, not for slogging.

In RSX and Bic Techno you will tune on the downhaul, while on the water, similar to sailing boats and dinghies.

Add IQFoil to the list.

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Chris 249 said..
Some Olympic and PWA sailors definitely do as you describe, but it's not the only way to approach the issue. Several people in the Australian Olympic team DIDN'T get several masts and pick the one that feels best, because at major events some classes are supplied by the organiser and therefore if the sailor cannot adapt their style to the mast they receive, they are stuffed. At least some of Olympic sailors therefore had a policy of taking what they get and learning how to use it. I've also been told first hand (by Tom Slingsby) that the claims that the Olympic Laser guys get to go through a whole stack of masts at the factory were rubbish.

So those from the Australian Olympic team who didn't get several masts to pick what they thought was the best would only grab a random mast from a pile even if they were given the chance to test several? Probably not.
Having said that, there are quite a few sailors in the PWA that do not care much about ultra fine tuning and they do more than fine. As for me, I try to get the correct mast (otherwise I don't think I'll be able to tell if there is something wrong with a sail/mast combo) or the one that's on sale :)

I always start with the mast the sail maker recommends to get a baseline. That is a no brainer.
BUT, as I have said here before, tuning with different masts is personally, my most powerful tuning tool. I have more than one mast in each size (yes, I am a mast hoarder ) and 4 or 5 with slightly different tested specs in some most used sizes , and I often find that I get a better feel and results from one particular combo, for me, in the conditions I sail in. Sails vary slightly as well, even in the same model and year due to (very small) build tolerances. Not to mention they can stretch and change over time. Changing between an SDM and RDM of the same specifications and brand can also dramatically change the way a sails feels and performs.
But of course, the sail makers recommended mast specification is always the best place to start, and the safest choice if you have the option of only one mast in that size.
* edit to clarify: 95% of my windsurfing is done with 'Race/Speed' type sails

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Chris 249 said..

WillyWind said..

I don't know if it has been mentioned on this thread but PWA and Olympic racers get several masts (same size, brand, etc) and pick the one that they feel fits their sail the best (same with fins). Even more, some sailors always position the mast on the same way, for example, the sticker/specs facing the pulleys. That shows how important is to have the right mast.

Some Olympic and PWA sailors definitely do as you describe, but it's not the only way to approach the issue. Several people in the Australian Olympic team DIDN'T get several masts and pick the one that feels best, because at major events some classes are supplied by the organiser and therefore if the sailor cannot adapt their style to the mast they receive, they are stuffed. At least some of Olympic sailors therefore had a policy of taking what they get and learning how to use it. I've also been told first hand (by Tom Slingsby) that the claims that the Olympic Laser guys get to go through a whole stack of masts at the factory were rubbish.

The other factor is that there's rarely "the right mast" and "the wrong mast" since the optimum mast bend changes with a huge variety of factors. Issues like the amount of waves compared to the wind strength, whether you are trying to go high and slower or lower and faster, the amount of wind sheer and other factors affect the desired mast bend. In yachts, the top guys can adjust mast bend (via the stays) from gust to gust, and also within a few seconds depending on the tactical situation. In boards we can't do that, but the fact that adjusting mast bend to the situation irrespective of wind strength changes is such a critical factor in other classes indicates that a lot of the time there's no one "right" bend and other "wrong" bends.

This is true within a specified range... such as the variation in production batches, or the variation between a certain manufacturer's flex top mast & a 3rd party branded flex top mast. This is NOT the case with the OP. He is taking a known flex top sail & rigged it on a known hard top branded mast. This is all fine & dandy for experimentation, but don't be surprised when the sail does not perform well in the range it was designed - this is 100% the wrong mast used. If he had used a "constant curve" mast instead or maybe a more moderate flex top mast he could still expect some loss of performance on one side or other but it would be less extreme. The same would happen if you took the hard top designed sail & put a flex top mast in it - it will probable work but it will not reach the designed performance & wind range.

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cheekyrafiki said..

"Only 9.8kgs" says a lot, considering that the original Windsurfer rig from the '60s was about 8-9kg and the '80s rig was about 6.5kg! I know I've said it before, but it's funny how the the industry keeps on saying sails are getting lighter when there seems to be so little evidence for that. It's like the fact that they always claim that wind ranges are getting wider, but they advertise sail quivers that use the same number of sails for the same sort of wind range they did over 30 years ago.

Surely you mean one of these retro remakes of the late early 70s models? I'm seen an early 70s rig and the boom alone must have been around 8kg, it also was laboriously tied in to a single-piece fiberglass mast that must have weighted over 5kg. Granted this was a large rig for the time.

I don't think sails are going to get much lighter than ~2010 models without painful durability compromises, but they are indeed a lot better now. Boards haven't evolved nearly as much in the last decade as sails.

A while ago I put a bunch of very different sails, including an original dacron Windsurfer sail as in your pic, on the scales. It came out at 1.58kg - a fraction of the weight of most modern 5.7s. That's in line with the Laser Radial dinghy sail, of the same nominal size but obviously heavier cloth, at 1.85kg. Both were measured with battens.

The original blue masts on the early Windsurfer rigs were bendy as hell and the rig felt shocking, but I still have one in the garage mezzanine and it seems very light. A wooden boom felt terrible and was maybe 3-4kg, but that still makes the whole rig (minus mast base) about 8-9kg.

Yes, the new sails are far more stable, gust responsive, etc, but they aren't lighter.

Select to expand quote

gorgesailor said..

Chris 249 said..

WillyWind said..

I don't know if it has been mentioned on this thread but PWA and Olympic racers get several masts (same size, brand, etc) and pick the one that they feel fits their sail the best (same with fins). Even more, some sailors always position the mast on the same way, for example, the sticker/specs facing the pulleys. That shows how important is to have the right mast.

Some Olympic and PWA sailors definitely do as you describe, but it's not the only way to approach the issue. Several people in the Australian Olympic team DIDN'T get several masts and pick the one that feels best, because at major events some classes are supplied by the organiser and therefore if the sailor cannot adapt their style to the mast they receive, they are stuffed. At least some of Olympic sailors therefore had a policy of taking what they get and learning how to use it. I've also been told first hand (by Tom Slingsby) that the claims that the Olympic Laser guys get to go through a whole stack of masts at the factory were rubbish.

The other factor is that there's rarely "the right mast" and "the wrong mast" since the optimum mast bend changes with a huge variety of factors. Issues like the amount of waves compared to the wind strength, whether you are trying to go high and slower or lower and faster, the amount of wind sheer and other factors affect the desired mast bend. In yachts, the top guys can adjust mast bend (via the stays) from gust to gust, and also within a few seconds depending on the tactical situation. In boards we can't do that, but the fact that adjusting mast bend to the situation irrespective of wind strength changes is such a critical factor in other classes indicates that a lot of the time there's no one "right" bend and other "wrong" bends.

This is true within a specified range... such as the variation in production batches, or the variation between a certain manufacturer's flex top mast & a 3rd party branded flex top mast. This is NOT the case with the OP. He is taking a known flex top sail & rigged it on a known hard top branded mast. This is all fine & dandy for experimentation, but don't be surprised when the sail does not perform well in the range it was designed - this is 100% the wrong mast used. If he had used a "constant curve" mast instead or maybe a more moderate flex top mast he could still expect some loss of performance on one side or other but it would be less extreme. The same would happen if you took the hard top designed sail & put a flex top mast in it - it will probable work but it will not reach the designed performance & wind range.

I was mainly responding to a specific claim about specific practises allegedly done by Olympians, not to the more general point.

Agree that mixing a flex top and hard top often wouldn't work, but the other general point is that the variation between different wind strengths, wave conditions, sail weight and technique, wind shear etc mean that in some conditions a different mast to the recommended one could work as well or better in some situations.

After all, in boats we can often change the rig from a "soft top" to a "hard top" by winding a few wires or pulling a few strings, and many sailors do just that because it's often the best way to tune the rig for varying conditions. Similarly, some cat sailors vary their wing mast rotation, which has a very powerful effect on sail shape, depending on the waves. There's not just one mast bend that works ideally across all conditions.

The last time I did a Raceboard nationals I just dragged a bunch of old miss-matched gear from the shed, including miss-matched mast and sail, and once it was tweaked ended up with a very flat sail as I had to outhaul too hard to keep the leach tight - but it worked quite well in the flat water and low wind shear conditions, ending up 6th out of about 38 despite the fact that I hadn't raced Raceboards in years and the other missmatched bits didn't work well. If the conditions had been different it could perhaps have been very slow, but conditions vary so much that there's not just one ideal shape or response for any sail.

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WillyWind said..

Chris 249 said..
Some Olympic and PWA sailors definitely do as you describe, but it's not the only way to approach the issue. Several people in the Australian Olympic team DIDN'T get several masts and pick the one that feels best, because at major events some classes are supplied by the organiser and therefore if the sailor cannot adapt their style to the mast they receive, they are stuffed. At least some of Olympic sailors therefore had a policy of taking what they get and learning how to use it. I've also been told first hand (by Tom Slingsby) that the claims that the Olympic Laser guys get to go through a whole stack of masts at the factory were rubbish.

So those from the Australian Olympic team who didn't get several masts to pick what they thought was the best would only grab a random mast from a pile even if they were given the chance to test several? Probably not.
Having said that, there are quite a few sailors in the PWA that do not care much about ultra fine tuning and they do more than fine. As for me, I try to get the correct mast (otherwise I don't think I'll be able to tell if there is something wrong with a sail/mast combo) or the one that's on sale :)

I explained the reasoning behind their decision. They know that it's best to learn to use different masts and sail combos. At the Olympics and normally at the worlds (there have been some stuff-ups) they get given boats supplied by the manufacturer, so they need to know how to adjust to the gear they are given so that they can win at the major regattas.

They have no reason to go and test masts; the AIS did that years ago, for Lasers at least, but they found that the results were pretty simple (the heavier, the stiffer) and getting stuck on specific gear is a dead end when you must be able to adapt. Getting a (mythical) super topmast in OZ is of zero use when you lob up to the worlds in Italy and they hand you a different topmast from the container - and the wind is very different in a different place anyway, so you may have to learn to trim differently anyway so getting fixated about special settings and gear is a recipe for disaster.

Our guys, who won the last three Laser gold medals, are coached by Michael Blackburn who used to regularly train on an old boat owned by Middle Harbour Amateur Sailing Club, so not only did he not try to choose the best mast, he actually used a complete set of gear that he knew was far from the best. Another of our Olympic Laser reps wasn't the best at taking after their gear because, as they said when they let their sail blow across the park, one bad tack was far more of a problem than a "slow" sail.

In some classes people have bought and tested lots of sets of gear to find the best stuff, but the point is that there is more than one way to approach the issue, and anyway the minute differences that Olympians can feel are irrelevant to the weekend warriors who will be sailing knots slower.

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Chris 249 said..

A while ago I put a bunch of very different sails, including an original dacron Windsurfer sail as in your pic, on the scales. It came out at 1.58kg - a fraction of the weight of most modern 5.7s. That's in line with the Laser Radial dinghy sail, of the same nominal size but obviously heavier cloth, at 1.85kg. Both were measured with battens.

The original blue masts on the early Windsurfer rigs were bendy as hell and the rig felt shocking, but I still have one in the garage mezzanine and it seems very light. A wooden boom felt terrible and was maybe 3-4kg, but that still makes the whole rig (minus mast base) about 8-9kg.

Yes, the new sails are far more stable, gust responsive, etc, but they aren't lighter.

My first rig was a second-hand triangle 5.7 mistral sail from IIRC 1983 without any battens, a 1-piece Hood mast and a tie-in boom. It was relatively light, in fact I think the tie-in boom was aluminium. Now this one I believe it was around the same weight than my closest current sail by size, but I don't think it would be with the wooden booms from a few years prior. I may be wrong.

So yeah the weight reduction manufacturers talk about is just over older sails that already have all the modern features which make such a massive difference in performance.

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cheekyrafiki said..

Chris 249 said..

A while ago I put a bunch of very different sails, including an original dacron Windsurfer sail as in your pic, on the scales. It came out at 1.58kg - a fraction of the weight of most modern 5.7s. That's in line with the Laser Radial dinghy sail, of the same nominal size but obviously heavier cloth, at 1.85kg. Both were measured with battens.

The original blue masts on the early Windsurfer rigs were bendy as hell and the rig felt shocking, but I still have one in the garage mezzanine and it seems very light. A wooden boom felt terrible and was maybe 3-4kg, but that still makes the whole rig (minus mast base) about 8-9kg.

Yes, the new sails are far more stable, gust responsive, etc, but they aren't lighter.

My first rig was a second-hand triangle 5.7 mistral sail from IIRC 1983 without any battens, a 1-piece Hood mast and a tie-in boom. It was relatively light, in fact I think the tie-in boom was aluminium. Now this one I believe it was around the same weight than my closest current sail by size, but I don't think it would be with the wooden booms from a few years prior. I may be wrong.

So yeah the weight reduction manufacturers talk about is just over older sails that already have all the modern features which make such a massive difference in performance.

I'd still wonder how much weight has actually been lost, even since the "modern features" came in. A lot of the time the concentration on new features can distract us from noticing a weight increase, and it's not all that easy to see why new sails should be lighter. The new "lightweight" North sails, for instance, use a technology that even North says saves only 10% over their 30 year old material - and battens and hardware make up a large amount of a windsurfer sail's weight.

I'm not saying that the original 1.58kg dacron sail was better, but when there has been a major increase in sail weight over the years it's no wonder that to some people, sails are so heavy that big ones feel like crap.

I haven't gone through old catalogs etc to check sail weight, but when I did do that to check out recommended sail ranges it was interesting to see that manufacturers still recommend about as many sails to cover the wind range as they did 30+ years ago! Obviously definitions of "range" could have changed and the modern sails have much better top end speed and stability. The other issue is that a top-level performer can feel (and use) a tiny increase in performance whereas the average sailor is making so many mistakes that a 2% increase in sail performance can effectively be hidden by the 50% lost by mistakes. The windsurfing industry is still an industry and therefore querying their marketing seems to be perfectly rational and reasonable.

Sails started to get really good around 2011 to 2012. Since then, improvements if any have been micro.

Is a current model 7m M5 sail any faster than a 2012 NP Evo 7m - i doubt it.

The reduction in battens to 7 for race sails has dropped the weight slightly but no doubt at some cost to stability especially in stronger conditions.

A sail is not like a car engine where you can add horsepower through technology.

Most of the improvements from one year to the next are just claims.

There is a night and day difference between the Reflex I sails compared to the Mach I, no doubt about it.
The Mach series are better in all aspects, including the weight.