Used my 7m Mach 2 a few days ago in 10 knots up to 20 knots and the physicality of it compared to my next sail size down a 5.6m was really stark.

Packed up after an hour as i was not enjoying sailing despite the wind still being good.

The weight of the 7m M2 is 5.4 kgs the same as my 5.6 Patrik but it feels heavier perhaps as its catching a lot more wind - lol.

Hated it in the 20 knot gusts despite having lots of downhaul.

It was fast enough but its going up for sale now.

Also disliked my Patrik 7m for the very same reason.

On my Patrik 110 with a 37 carbon fin i struggle big time to lift the windward rail with a 7m as i feel the sideways force created by the bigger sail considerably reduces the lift of the board.

With my 5.6 on the same board and fin the lift of the board is much greater which also means sailing upwind is a breeze which adds considerably to the enjoyment of the sport.

The more the windward rail lifts - the easier i find to sail upwind.

Realized i would rather be on / off the plane with my 5.6 than on the plane all the time with my 7m as the feel is so much nicer with my smaller sail.

Going to try my NP Evo 4 6.4m as a light wind option.

Just not convinced anything bigger than 5.6m really works for 70 kg sailors unless the wind is very marginal. 6.4m at a push.

Using a bigger board to get going earlier detracts from the feel less than using a bigger sail.

I see some wing ding or use a foil on the light days which is another option.

I felt the same when having to use 10's & 11's on Formula boards.
Enjoying winging much more now

Pcdefender, before you sell gear, investigate your tuning. You are a light guy. You rigging guides are tuned for heavier riders. Unfortunately you may need to throw the rigging guide out the window and experiment. Sails are expensive and you need to fully investigate before walking away from them. Otherwise you learn nothing and the next sail you buy becomes the next pitfall. Sails are rarely defective IMO. It's normally a tuning issue. The mast, boom and rider all work together.

Nb/ Certain brands sell 3 or 4 different masts of different sniffnesses to cater for varying weighted riders and recognise that you can't have 1 size fits all.

Yes, Severne sails after 2011, I struggled to tune up properly IMO (mostly issues with the top end wind range). So I avoid Severne now. But, they work for a lot of people (not to dest the brand).

Good luck. I know exactly how you feel !. Been there too. it's very frustrating and deflating

7.0 is my smallest sail. Usually I am going out with 8.5 I need 20kt+ to get the 7 out.

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Pcdefender said..
Used my 7m Mach 2 a few days ago in 10 knots up to 20 knots and the physicality of it compared to my next sail size down a 5.6m was really stark.

Packed up after an hour as i was not enjoying sailing despite the wind still being good.

The weight of the 7m M2 is 5.4 kgs the same as my 5.6 Patrik but it feels heavier perhaps as its catching a lot more wind - lol.

Hated it in the 20 knot gusts despite having lots of downhaul.

It was fast enough but its going up for sale now.

Also disliked my Patrik 7m for the very same reason.

On my Patrik 110 with a 37 carbon fin i struggle big time to lift the windward rail with a 7m as i feel the sideways force created by the bigger sail considerably reduces the lift of the board.

With my 5.6 on the same board and fin the lift of the board is much greater which also means sailing upwind is a breeze which adds considerably to the enjoyment of the sport.

The more the windward rail lifts - the easier i find to sail upwind.

Realized i would rather be on / off the plane with my 5.6 than on the plane all the time with my 7m as the feel is so much nicer with my smaller sail.

Going to try my NP Evo 4 6.4m as a light wind option.

Just not convinced anything bigger than 5.6m really works for 70 kg sailors unless the wind is very marginal. 6.4m at a push.

Using a bigger board to get going earlier detracts from the feel less than using a bigger sail.

I see some wing ding or use a foil on the light days which is another option.

I'm 90kg and I use my 7.0 in 15 to 22 kts. I've got a mate your weight and he uses a 6.2 in the same wind conditions. Your 6.4 would work well in these conditions

What is the 5.6?

The 5.6 is a Patrik 4 cam race rail. I took the top camber off and works just as good - i think.

I remember last year in 10 to 13 knots using my 6.4 i struggled to get going at all and then rigged up my 7m and was planing at least half the time so maybe i will keep it for the super light days.

In 15 to 20 knots a 7m is never going to feel as good for a lightweight as a 5.6m in my opinion.

Yes i should keep it for less than 15 knots but have been scarred for life after last weeks experience.

I see some women holding up 6.3 and 7m sails in 15 to 22 knots when i feel a smaller sail maybe with less downhaul would likely work a whole lot better which is really the point of the thread.

As a 73Kg sailor I can completely relate to that. My favourite and most commonly used sail is my 5.7m KA Race/Speed on my Isonic80. I go to 6.4m and IS87 in light wind days. I didnt use my 7m/IS97 combo all summer. Likewise, I'm wondering why I even have a IS117 and a 7.8m?? Sail still new in the bag. LOL! Second most used sail this last summer at LG was the 5.2m with my speed board. . I think those who live in places that are not blessed with consistent winds over 15-18 knots do get to know how to manage the bigger, heavier stuff and get it working, but I don't have the need (or desire) so I have never got tuned and used the bigger stuff. And these days, I think I would go foiling if the only option was under 15 knots.

I can relate completely with a hatred of big sails, but 7m is really a medium sail so far as race sails go. My 7m is my go to sail for 18-23ish knots. It feels so light compared to a 7.8m/8.6m.

maybe spend some more time at the gym.

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Subsonic said..
I can relate completely with a hatred of big sails, but 7m is really a medium sail so far as race sails go. My 7m is my go to sail for 18-23ish knots. It feels so light compared to a 7.8m/8.6m.

maybe spend some more time at the gym.

I think it is all relative. At 73Kg I use the 6.4m/5.7m in that exact wind range. Perhaps cooler, denser wind as well?

My biggest is a 6.6 and I use it from 13 to 15. But I have to be fairly desperate to do so, 18kts with the 6.2 is nicer.
and 30 with a 5.2 is close to perfect.
It's all relative to weight, I'm around 70kg, and with age, loosing strength and endurance. I just can't use a 7.0 and have no interest in doing so.

As a wave sailor that often uses 4.8 - 5.6 - one of my favourite sails is my old Severne 8.6 Reflex.
For sure it weighs a bit - and i even like using it with a (stiff) ally boom.

The thing is - it flies itself with its own lift - so it may be heavy in no wind but once it has airflow over it its kind of self supporting.What i love is that from around 11/12 knots through to 20 or so it just does not budge - it is so stable and crisp in gusts.

I have it tuned so that i can sail both hands off for 100s of meters.

I have had so many great 130 litre board (Windtech Silver Bullet 74) and 8.6 light wind sessions - the regular water time keeps you relatively fit for when it is actual wave sailing weather.

With a bit of practice freeride foiling up to 20knts wind is a lot of fun and you will use 4 - 5 m. sails.
I had sails up to 11m. and since I took up foiling my biggest is a 7. My foil board replaced 3 slalom boards.

Foiling is not for everyone or for every location and beside that, I bet your still going slower than you were...

Sounds to me a bit like the Ooriginal poster might have needed more fin with the 7m, struggling to lift the windward rail. Once its all balanced well it won't feel so heavy.

Being a lightweight myself (about 62-64kg) I can certainly relate to the use of heavy full race sails. But for me it means that I'm no longer using a 11.7 sail as my largest sail, instead I have settled for a 10.7 (Reflex IV) as my largest sail as it has broader wind range (for me).

Trying to read between the lines in the following:
"On my Patrik 110 with a 37 carbon fin i struggle big time to lift the windward rail with a 7m as i feel the sideways force created by the bigger sail considerably reduces the lift of the board.

With my 5.6 on the same board and fin the lift of the board is much greater which also means sailing upwind is a breeze which adds considerably to the enjoyment of the sport."

It does sound more like a tuning issue, than a "real issue". A 5.6 sail will for sure feel lighter than a 7.0 sail, and using the same fin will for sure exaggerate this even further. Furthermore, the Severne M series are some of the lightest full-race sails that one can find, and they do feel very light compared to the Reflex series, for instance. So there is no reason for it not to work well on a 110 liter board. Do you have the recommended mast for the sail?

There are few tuning things that you can try. Compared to others locally, with more weight than me, I feel that I am often using:
- slightly larger or softer fin
- more downhaul
- less outhaul (adjustable on the fly)
- mast-foot further back (as far as it will go, on slalom boards)
- foot straps far back (as far as they will go, on slalom boards)

When everything is set-up right you really should be able to sail "hands off", as said earlier.

PS. I've never tried wing dinging myself, but I find that I'm sailing circles around them on my current gear... ;)

I'm the other way, I love my 7.7 in 20 kts at 87 kg. I'd play with the tuning

Sail size is directly proportional to sailor weight. To take Kato's numbers, a 7.7 for 87 kg corresponds to a 6.2 at 70 kg. I'm similar in weight to Kato, with lower skill levels, and am perfectly fine on a 7.8. So a properly trimmed 6.4 should be a good size for 70 kg.

If the 7.0 feels heavy when powered, it's likely a trim issue, which is fixable. But if the wind is unsteady and you slog a lot, or have to uphaul or waterstart often, then the increased mast and boom lengths become an issue, even if the sail weight is not much higher than your 5.6.

For reference, my wife is a few kg lighter than you, and has used a 7.0 race sail often (before she switched to winging in lighter wind). Nowadays, she'll use a 6.3 on the lighter days, and switches to a 5.6 when wind averages increase above 21 knots (measured by stationary windmeters - on-shore measurements would be a few knots lower). She's gotten top speeds with the 6.3 on a day where it was gusting 28 knots, but that was on flat and shallow water.

Even a 12.5 is light as a feather when you are up and going in the harness and footstraps. The problem is the part about getting to that point. Mostly the uphaul. But once up and vertical, just keep it balanced.

All that said, my biggest now (for foiling) is a 7.0.

Dunno why everyone complains about sail size on race sails, the rsx girls were still holding onto 8.5 when men are changing down from 7's? I have no complaints about 9m+ sails I use, just gotta rig them right & just use them- never used a 12.5, 11 feels bit on big side mostly as I don't use that size much. Sure they go through transitions differently, if you find them heavy maybe more gym less clicky. Alot of same complaint happened with people transitioning from old style sails to new, no comparison look at swing weights so old 5.6 similar handling to later 7.0

Wave (especially) & freeride sails way different story though, never met a wave sail above 6.2 that I liked & even then 5.3 & down seems to be when they feel nice.

My favourite sail is my 9.4overdrive, stick it on my falcon 140 and everything just feels great.
I have smaller overdrives and boards but nothing is as balanced and fun to use as that combo.

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mkseven said..
Dunno why everyone complains about sail size on race sails, the rsx girls were still holding onto 8.5 when men are changing down from 7's? I have no complaints about 9m+ sails I use, just gotta rig them right & just use them- never used a 12.5, 11 feels bit on big side mostly as I don't use that size much. Sure they go through transitions differently, if you find them heavy maybe more gym less clicky. Alot of same complaint happened with people transitioning from old style sails to new, no comparison look at swing weights so old 5.6 similar handling to later 7.0

Wave (especially) & freeride sails way different story though, never met a wave sail above 6.2 that I liked & even then 5.3 & down seems to be when they feel nice.

I guess my problem with them as a lighter rider is you get a much diminished range from them. They feel great in a much smaller window of wind strength. so it's not really a case of their being anything wrong with the sail, rather a mismatch of sailor weight and useable power from the sail. Im sure i would appreciate an 8.6 much more given another 10kg.

It's true that some boards work better with smaller sails. I had a similar experience with a 105L freeride and a 7.0. Felt like the board lacked torque down low even with a 36cm fin.

However using the 7.0 on a formula board worked perfectly! So you may need a 125L to make the most out of your 7.0.

Big sails feel great . 8.2 is my favorite , 9.4 is my most used . 5.8 is my smallest and used for damage control in nuking wind and feels horrible .
That's what happens when your a heavy bastard .

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Subsonic said..

mkseven said..
Dunno why everyone complains about sail size on race sails, the rsx girls were still holding onto 8.5 when men are changing down from 7's? I have no complaints about 9m+ sails I use, just gotta rig them right & just use them- never used a 12.5, 11 feels bit on big side mostly as I don't use that size much. Sure they go through transitions differently, if you find them heavy maybe more gym less clicky. Alot of same complaint happened with people transitioning from old style sails to new, no comparison look at swing weights so old 5.6 similar handling to later 7.0

Wave (especially) & freeride sails way different story though, never met a wave sail above 6.2 that I liked & even then 5.3 & down seems to be when they feel nice.

I guess my problem with them as a lighter rider is you get a much diminished range from them. They feel great in a much smaller window of wind strength. so it's not really a case of their being anything wrong with the sail, rather a mismatch of sailor weight and useable power from the sail. Im sure i would appreciate an 8.6 much more given another 10kg.

Really how much lighter than old rsx class sailors is the average windsurfer? They hold onto 9.5/8.5 fine because they practice with it.

I love my 9m race sails, with practice/tuning they aren't exactly slow either. To me the single biggest issue with big sails is they weight board too much in gybes so not easy to get clean gybe, for similar reason I wouldn't say I plane much if any earlier than 8.6 or 7.8.

My favourite combo in chop is a 7m Severne Turbo ( twin cam) on a 90ltre 57wide board .I use it in a patchy 10 - 18 kts.
I usually weigh 65kgs but probably more 68-70 lately.
My biggest board is a narrower 111ltres 64 wide and I use the 7.5m Turbo.
I find I need to sail regularly to have the fitness and muscles ( biceps, abs) to comfortably use the 7.5m .I much prefer the 7m but we don't often get perfect wind.

@100kg my most used size is 7.7 warp by far. I have used it on boards from 81cm wide to 66cm wide and fins from 42cm to 36cm. when the sail is tuned right on any of the board/fin combos it feels light but it can get a dead and heavy feeling when tuned wrong - usually its not enough downhaul or too much outhaul can have a similar effect.

7m is small and "light" because it's blowing 23+ by then and it is hang on time, fighting more to keep it down than keep it up. I dream of using a 6.2, bought one used it once so far

Bottom line, I think if a 7m is feeling heavy its not the weight, its the tuning and conditions

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Subsonic said..

mkseven said..
Dunno why everyone complains about sail size on race sails, the rsx girls were still holding onto 8.5 when men are changing down from 7's? I have no complaints about 9m+ sails I use, just gotta rig them right & just use them- never used a 12.5, 11 feels bit on big side mostly as I don't use that size much. Sure they go through transitions differently, if you find them heavy maybe more gym less clicky. Alot of same complaint happened with people transitioning from old style sails to new, no comparison look at swing weights so old 5.6 similar handling to later 7.0

Wave (especially) & freeride sails way different story though, never met a wave sail above 6.2 that I liked & even then 5.3 & down seems to be when they feel nice.

I guess my problem with them as a lighter rider is you get a much diminished range from them. They feel great in a much smaller window of wind strength. so it's not really a case of their being anything wrong with the sail, rather a mismatch of sailor weight and useable power from the sail. Im sure i would appreciate an 8.6 much more given another 10kg.

Yes. As a lighter sailor I've often wondered if I'm getting the true benefit from my race sails that are designed for heavier guys to use overpowered in much more wind. 18kts consistent would be a handful for me on the 7m but they are probably designed to be used in 25kts plus..
I use them in 12- 18kts and change down at 18kts plus .. does that mean I haven't experienced the sail as it's designed to be used??

I agree with Manuel that on a bigger board my 7m will feel better.

I have used it on a 135 lite Patrik and it felt much lighter and the board trimmed with more windward rail lift.

For lightweights a 7m has a small window of wind, possibly around 11 to 15 knots where it feels good.

Above 15 knots and closer to 20 they become increasingly physical to use unless excessive downhaul is used.

Years back i would see many sailors using 8.6m sails which is rare now.

Sails bigger than 7.8 you cant give them away now such is their value.

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mkseven said..

Subsonic said..

mkseven said..
Dunno why everyone complains about sail size on race sails, the rsx girls were still holding onto 8.5 when men are changing down from 7's? I have no complaints about 9m+ sails I use, just gotta rig them right & just use them- never used a 12.5, 11 feels bit on big side mostly as I don't use that size much. Sure they go through transitions differently, if you find them heavy maybe more gym less clicky. Alot of same complaint happened with people transitioning from old style sails to new, no comparison look at swing weights so old 5.6 similar handling to later 7.0

Wave (especially) & freeride sails way different story though, never met a wave sail above 6.2 that I liked & even then 5.3 & down seems to be when they feel nice.

I guess my problem with them as a lighter rider is you get a much diminished range from them. They feel great in a much smaller window of wind strength. so it's not really a case of their being anything wrong with the sail, rather a mismatch of sailor weight and useable power from the sail. Im sure i would appreciate an 8.6 much more given another 10kg.

Really how much lighter than old rsx class sailors is the average windsurfer? They hold onto 9.5/8.5 fine because they practice with it.

I love my 9m race sails, with practice/tuning they aren't exactly slow either. To me the single biggest issue with big sails is they weight board too much in gybes so not easy to get clean gybe, for similar reason I wouldn't say I plane much if any earlier than 8.6 or 7.8.

For sure its possible to hang onto them, but they are inefficient past that sweet window. As a lighter rider, youre better off being on a smaller sail that you can hold down easier. And under that wind range, sure you can plane, but you can certainly feel that extra weight when the sail is underpowered.

sure the rsx sailors can hold down the 9.5/8.5 in all sorts of breeze, but they have to, its one design. and everyones in the same boat, they're all overpowered together.

not forgetting rsx is also course racing orientated. they're negating some of that excess power by aiming on more upwind/downwind tracks than a slalom sailor generally would.

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Pcdefender said..

Using a bigger board to get going earlier detracts from the feel less than using a bigger sail.

Looking at the PWA equipment list, the women tend not to use the 140l/85cm wide boards and still have 7.8m/8.6m as their largest sail depending on their weight I guess. Thy use the next size down as their largest board as its more controllable for them.
nor.pwaworldtour.com/Registered_slalom_equipment_portugal_2018.htm

For slalom kit, I guess you need to match board, fin, sail size, conditions to your skill level if you want to sail fast.

I dislike using wide boards. I use an 8.5m Ezzy Lion 2 cam on 125l/80cm board, 7.5m on 110l/67cm board. 2 weeks I tried the 7.5m on 125l/80cm board as the wind was a bit patchy and after spending time on wide foil boards recently the 67cm board suddenly felt very small. The 7.5m/80cm board combo didnt feel good at all. A couple of sessions on the 67cm board and I soon regained the balance.

Yesterday I was foiling with the 8.5m Ezzy. Came in, and a friend had rigged his 8m Phantom foil slalom sail. I picked it up and rotated it, and though f&^k that, I'll stick with freeride sails.

Arent there lighter easier to use freerace sails you could use instead of full on slalom sails?

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Pcdefender said..

For lightweights a 7m has a small window of wind, possibly around 11 to 15 knots where it feels good.

Above 15 knots and closer to 20 they become increasingly physical to use unless excessive downhaul is used.

11 to 15 knots average wind, plus gusts? 5 knots wind range per sail sounds ok to me.

I (80kg) reckon I use my sails within a 5-6 knot range for flat water harbour sailing:
sail - board vol - wind min avg - wind max avg (maxed out)
8.5 Lion - 125 - 10 - 15
7.5 Lion - 110 - 14 - 19
6.5 Lion - 110 - 16 - 21
6 Cheetah - 94 - 17 - 22
5.2 Tiger - 94 - 20 - 25 (different on the sea in waves)
4.5 Panther - 94 - 23 - 28 "

If I'm maxed out on the 7.5m, I can easily get going on the 6.5m sail which is more fun.

The 110l/6.5m combo tends to be used on flatter water, I use the 94l/6m on the sea where its wavier or in the harbour when its very choppy and top speed isnt important.