You're a sad angry man.

Just do whatever works for you. Some people use long lines. Some people use short lines. High boom, low boom. Big sail, small sail, Big foil, small foil. Wide board, narrow board. Footstraps, strapless. Some people drive Ford. Some people drive Chevy. (Ok, don't forget Chrysler/Dodge. In the rest of the non-USA world, add many others.) Coors, Bud, Miller, Corona.

Whatever works, but, yes, it has to work. If it doesn't work, change something. The nice thing about sport is that we can change things.

In general, I look for advice from this group since some of you already went through the same dilemma raised by original contributor. It would be nice to keep it more mellow, respectful so that we could benefit from each other. Do whatever works for your condition may not be that useful but providing specific guidance for specific conditions, riders, foil type, sail type etc would be beneficial to improve our rides and skills.

The problem with that is the chagrin created by so many variables.

Since most of us ride on flat water (up to 30 cm chop) in medium winds (12-18 kts) it is easy to start simple.

I contend that the following applies to 95% of us.

Mount the foil and footstraps such that the front wing is at the mid point between front and back feet, then set the sail mast base at 108 cm in front of the foil mast leading edge. Use as 5.5-6.5 sail (any type) depending on wind. Leave off the foostraps and harness for now. Then go out and foil your brains out. You can get as LOT of good productive foiling with these settings. Dozens or hundreds of sessions. Whole seasons' worth.

95% of us can foil this way forever.

However, most of us are not satisfied with the status quo. We gotta get better. This is built in to the whole windsport mindset.

So then, and only then, do you start to tweak things such as footstraps, harness, sail size and type, and geometry. By then you will not be so confused by all the variables. You will have the basic skills, so you can tweak each variable one at a time and see the result.

After 5 years I still tweak. It's a big part of the fun. I guarantee you your tweaks will be different from the next guy's tweaks.

Yes experimenting makes a huge difference. For me, when I was trying to find my balance point on a IQfoil 800 or 1000 wing 115+ fuselage, I did not know where to put the sail mast but I found out putting very close to the front end of sail track made my runs more managable. I tried to run this set up without front straps and it was impossible to lift up since I needed leverage for lift up. I could lift without footstraps on freeride foil but it was not same for the race set up. I also noted longer 30 inch harness was better for race set up than the 24 inch I used for freeride. Some of the people in this forum recommended these set up for my transition to race foil ride and helped me to get this point.

Interesting.
I mainly freeride foil. Naish 1150.
Do ride 600 HA, and 4 cam 6.0 as a change.
Instead of longer lines, I use a wider boom.
Triangle is full on slalom windsurf, sail mast base 24" from center of front footstrap. Harness lines might be 2" longer, so 26".

Select to expand quote

WhiteofHeart said..
I think you're still missing 1 critical point of longer harness lines and that is detaching the sail from the sailor in terms of balance and pressure on the foil. With short lines, your sail and you are quite solidly attached, if your sail gets yanked in a gust, you get yanked in a gust and the balance shifts completely. With longer lines the sail can get yanked, but your body can stay put. This is the main reason for me to ride longer lines on the freeride kit. This is regardless of whether or not you dedicate fully to the lines. With my freeride kit I often dodnt have my sail closed anyway, so no dedication really happening there.


If you do dedicate fully to the lines:

In light winds I ride shorter lines regardless of kit choice, as shorter lines are more efficient in terms of power delivery. Any bend at the hips (and/or knees) which is required for weighting longer lines reduces efficiency (and increases control).

Shorter lines (but arms fully extended) moves your shoulders/upper body further away from the sail and puts your body in a naturally rigid 7 position, increasing efficiency. Longer lines moves your shoulders/upper body closer to the sail, less rigid, but lowers your overall weight to increase leverage and thereby increases control.

I would never go as short to need a bend at the elbows, as a bend at the elbows would be indicative of a setup where you start getting worst of both worlds, as you reduce efficiency (distance between your shoulders and the sail), and reduce control (raised center of mass) at the same time.

The maximum length for me where I can extend my shoulders away from the rig maximally and still reach the boom is 28". Anything above 28" and I cannot reach the boom anymore with my shoulders pushed away from the rig (and would thus ride with a bend at the hips to be able to reach the boom). 28" is the optimal harness line length for my body / boom height for maximum efficiency. Anything below will decrease efficiency and control, everything above will decrease efficiency but increase control.

@sandman read this again. Lines which are shorter than optimal (/cause you to have to bend at the elbows) decrease both control and efficiency compared to lines which allow a perfect 7. Efficiency here means power in the rig. In lighter winds in my experience the problem is often not power in the foil, but power in the rig, and having it as far away from you as possible while still remaining rigid (7 stance) means maximum power in the rig as the sail has the most projected surface area, and the least rake backward (resulting in keeping spanwise airflow across the sail to a minimum, increasing power).

Add to that that for a lot of well tuned foil setups, the foil can be overpowering the downforce from the sail in light wind, extending the harness lines to "optimal" length increases mastfoot pressure given any fixed windspeed, allowing you to ride with equal (or more equal) weight across both legs in light winds instead of having to lean forward, increasing efficiency (and thus speed / glide) even more.

For me this "optimal" length is 28", which is about as long as my arm upto the palm of my hand (quite logical I think).

In practice I often run lines a little longer, not so I can sit lower, but so that I can extend the rig away from me further in gusty conditions and increase control. In 15-20 knots with a 5m I dont have to be efficient, but I like to keep in control if a sudden gust yanks my sail all over the place.


To explain why I'm taking the time to answer your question: To me it doesnt matter whether you or LeeD are going to do anything about your setup, want to, or even have to (e.g. you dont have to be 100% efficient all the time right?). I just want to have clear for other users / people who might find this thread in the future that there is an optimal harness line length (for maximum efficiency), and that while it is dependent on a lot of factors, an optimal length can 99% be found at 28" +/- 1".

If you hold your boom at shoulder width, can fully extend your arms and maintain a straight posture without bend at the hips you've found the correct length. If you have to bend at the hips you're "too long" for optimal efficiency, if you have to bend at the elbows you're "too long" for optimal efficiency. The harness line length for optimal control is a lot longer (I think for me around 34", beyond that I start losing control because I'm too low / far away etc.), between those two "optimal" lengths its a tradeoff between efficiency and control.

If you dont have to bend at the elbows / hips, maintain a straight 7 posture and end up with 23" lines either you're a kid or kid sized person, or there's a serious mismatch in your kit (way too large sail for the width probably).

Select to expand quote

WhiteofHeart said..








To explain why I'm taking the time to answer your question: To me it doesnt matter whether you or LeeD are going to do anything about your setup, want to, or even have to (e.g. you dont have to be 100% efficient all the time right?). I just want to have clear for other users / people who might find this thread in the future that there is an optimal harness line length (for maximum efficiency), and that while it is dependent on a lot of factors, an optimal length can 99% be found at 28" +/- 1".

If you hold your boom at shoulder width, can fully extend your arms and maintain a straight posture without bend at the hips you've found the correct length. If you have to bend at the hips you're "too long" for optimal efficiency, if you have to bend at the elbows you're "too long" for optimal efficiency. The harness line length for optimal control is a lot longer (I think for me around 34", beyond that I start losing control because I'm too low / far away etc.), between those two "optimal" lengths its a tradeoff between efficiency and control.

If you dont have to bend at the elbows / hips, maintain a straight 7 posture and end up with 23" lines either you're a kid or kid sized person, or there's a serious mismatch in your kit (way too large sail for the width probably).

Thank you, this is the main thing I've been learning here. My lines have been a bit too long out of my own ignorance. Advice from others IRL as well as seeing how my stance differed in video made me realize this. Often times people will say that my stance is not optimal but will not indicate the lines as part of the reason.

I still want to get out on the IQFoil gear and try to get in figure 7 with two different lengths just to see how it looks different on video and so everyone can throw darts at my technique as well.

Select to expand quote

LeeD said..
So you are using race boards gear and technique for freeride foiling. Hmmmm....smart.

When you are comfortable with your gear, categories matter much less

www.facebook.com/WindsurfPt/videos/1658423774492694

Select to expand quote

Paducah said..

LeeD said..
So you are using race boards gear and technique for freeride foiling. Hmmmm....smart.

When you are comfortable with your gear, categories matter much less

www.facebook.com/WindsurfPt/videos/1658423774492694

That reminds me of this, skip to 34min in, also 38min for some waves:

Select to expand quote

aeroegnr said..

Paducah said..

LeeD said..
So you are using race boards gear and technique for freeride foiling. Hmmmm....smart.

When you are comfortable with your gear, categories matter much less

www.facebook.com/WindsurfPt/videos/1658423774492694

That reminds me of this, skip to 34min in, also 38min for some waves:

Yeah, I remember that and certainly on my mind when I posted. Inspiring and motivating. One thing some people overlook about race gear, even race longboards, is they really open up your playground.

Select to expand quote

Paducah said..

aeroegnr said..

Paducah said..

LeeD said..
So you are using race boards gear and technique for freeride foiling. Hmmmm....smart.

When you are comfortable with your gear, categories matter much less

www.facebook.com/WindsurfPt/videos/1658423774492694

That reminds me of this, skip to 34min in, also 38min for some waves:

Yeah, I remember that and certainly on my mind when I posted. Inspiring and motivating. One thing some people overlook about race gear, even race longboards, is they really open up your playground.

Yes, there is a spot here with a safe and protected launch without shorebreak in flat water that has a channel going out to the gulf. It often has pretty strong currents. I wouldn't attempt it on a small volume board, but having a race foil, 200L board, and 9.0 I've given it a go once, albeit underpowered. One of these days I'll make it out while foiling. It's a couple of miles from the launch to the open gulf. I was getting on foil in one direction due to current but not in the other, was rough coming back with strong outbound current (seemed like 2knots).

I would not want to take it out through the shorebreak that I normally wavesail in, as around 8.0 (without cams) it gets a bit dicey/silly unless it's subplaning conditions. Around 5.8-6.6 fin conditions it's not bad as long as it is mostly sideshore.

Why so much emphasis on the length of the lines when what matters most is that your arms are roughly shoulders apart and they are stretched?

I was using "short" lines for foiling until I bought a new boom for sails 6 and down. I noticed that my new boom was four inches wider so my lines were set two inches inches longer.

if your arms reach is one inch less than you buddy and everything else is equal, your harness lines will need to be two inches shorter (roughly).

if you like to have you boom at chest height and your friend with same height and arm lengths likes to place it one in higher, you will need to have lines 2 inches longer (roughly).


all that talk about harness lengths is related to the sailing stance

I measured my lines for foiling and they are set at 30 inches. Depending on whether I'm going upwind, reaching, downwind, I adjust the length a little bit

for the average person, I think that maybe 28 could be a starting point? But there are so many variables that those numbers are not and should not be set in stone


that is why instructors say that you should be able to place your forearm in the harness lines and then adjust as needed.

if I see a new sailor sailing, I will pass him and see his stance, I'm not going to yell "I need to know the length of you lines so I can give you unsolicited advice!" Of course If that person asks me at the beach if he should use 22" lines, I will say "as long as you can have your arms shoulder apart and your boo is at a reasonable height and your arms are somewhat straight, use whatever you need and change things around to fit your needs

Select to expand quote

WhiteofHeart said..

WhiteofHeart said..
I think you're still missing 1 critical point of longer harness lines and that is detaching the sail from the sailor in terms of balance and pressure on the foil. With short lines, your sail and you are quite solidly attached, if your sail gets yanked in a gust, you get yanked in a gust and the balance shifts completely. With longer lines the sail can get yanked, but your body can stay put. This is the main reason for me to ride longer lines on the freeride kit. This is regardless of whether or not you dedicate fully to the lines. With my freeride kit I often dodnt have my sail closed anyway, so no dedication really happening there.


If you do dedicate fully to the lines:

In light winds I ride shorter lines regardless of kit choice, as shorter lines are more efficient in terms of power delivery. Any bend at the hips (and/or knees) which is required for weighting longer lines reduces efficiency (and increases control).

Shorter lines (but arms fully extended) moves your shoulders/upper body further away from the sail and puts your body in a naturally rigid 7 position, increasing efficiency. Longer lines moves your shoulders/upper body closer to the sail, less rigid, but lowers your overall weight to increase leverage and thereby increases control.

I would never go as short to need a bend at the elbows, as a bend at the elbows would be indicative of a setup where you start getting worst of both worlds, as you reduce efficiency (distance between your shoulders and the sail), and reduce control (raised center of mass) at the same time.

The maximum length for me where I can extend my shoulders away from the rig maximally and still reach the boom is 28". Anything above 28" and I cannot reach the boom anymore with my shoulders pushed away from the rig (and would thus ride with a bend at the hips to be able to reach the boom). 28" is the optimal harness line length for my body / boom height for maximum efficiency. Anything below will decrease efficiency and control, everything above will decrease efficiency but increase control.

@sandman read this again. Lines which are shorter than optimal (/cause you to have to bend at the elbows) decrease both control and efficiency compared to lines which allow a perfect 7. Efficiency here means power in the rig. In lighter winds in my experience the problem is often not power in the foil, but power in the rig, and having it as far away from you as possible while still remaining rigid (7 stance) means maximum power in the rig as the sail has the most projected surface area, and the least rake backward (resulting in keeping spanwise airflow across the sail to a minimum, increasing power).

Add to that that for a lot of well tuned foil setups, the foil can be overpowering the downforce from the sail in light wind, extending the harness lines to "optimal" length increases mastfoot pressure given any fixed windspeed, allowing you to ride with equal (or more equal) weight across both legs in light winds instead of having to lean forward, increasing efficiency (and thus speed / glide) even more.

For me this "optimal" length is 28", which is about as long as my arm upto the palm of my hand (quite logical I think).

In practice I often run lines a little longer, not so I can sit lower, but so that I can extend the rig away from me further in gusty conditions and increase control. In 15-20 knots with a 5m I dont have to be efficient, but I like to keep in control if a sudden gust yanks my sail all over the place.


To explain why I'm taking the time to answer your question: To me it doesnt matter whether you or LeeD are going to do anything about your setup, want to, or even have to (e.g. you dont have to be 100% efficient all the time right?). I just want to have clear for other users / people who might find this thread in the future that there is an optimal harness line length (for maximum efficiency), and that while it is dependent on a lot of factors, an optimal length can 99% be found at 28" +/- 1".

If you hold your boom at shoulder width, can fully extend your arms and maintain a straight posture without bend at the hips you've found the correct length. If you have to bend at the hips you're "too long" for optimal efficiency, if you have to bend at the elbows you're "too long" for optimal efficiency. The harness line length for optimal control is a lot longer (I think for me around 34", beyond that I start losing control because I'm too low / far away etc.), between those two "optimal" lengths its a tradeoff between efficiency and control.

If you dont have to bend at the elbows / hips, maintain a straight 7 posture and end up with 23" lines either you're a kid or kid sized person, or there's a serious mismatch in your kit (way too large sail for the width probably).

WoH, read it, thanks for taking the time, does not change the physics!, was out yesterday in 8-11 knots with an 8.0 Aerotech Freespeed, AFS W95 with F1080 wing, and Goya Bolt 135 board 80 cm wide, nicely balanced most of the time with bent arms, had the energy at the ends of the runs to do planing gybes and aggressive tacks, because I was using short lines that allowed my harness to hold the sail pressure instead of my arms. I actually had to adjust the seat harness bar down because the 24" lines were too long (but the tubing prevented further shortening). Could still stand flat footed on the deck hooked in with board on the water slogging, but just barely! and probably in only one small area of the deck, really need good balance for that and need use downward pressure on sail mast, but sometimes upward, to prevent the sail from pulling you over.

And a very athletic winger was on the water before me, he looked reasonably fast, but when I got on the water just blew right past him, he tried racing me but was far behind after one lap.

WS or foil, my lines are about 9" above my hook when slogging with 24" lines. I just jump to unhook when caught hooked in.

Select to expand quote

LeeD said..
WS or foil, my lines are about 9" above my hook when slogging with 24" lines. I just jump to unhook when caught hooked in.

Good tip LeeD, never tried jumping out, now that takes some balance!

Select to expand quote

WillyWind said..
Why so much emphasis on the length of the lines when what matters most is that your arms are roughly shoulders apart and they are stretched?

One reason is because most people start out by shortening their lines from fin windsurfing. They tend to be more over the board, getting their first flights and aren't putting a lot of pressure on their rigs. They are also probably moving their lines forward but that's for another absurdly long thread. Some people get stuck at this stage for various reasons and may not know why they should consider foiling with longer lines. They may instead be unhooking or avoiding being well/overpowered. Others may eventually move their lines back to their finning length and more than a few of us find ourselves on lines longer than finning.

WhiteofHeart, for example gave a very good example above:

Select to expand quote

WhiteofHeart said..

... For me this "optimal" length is 28", which is about as long as my arm upto the palm of my hand (quite logical I think).

In practice I often run lines a little longer, not so I can sit lower, but so that I can extend the rig away from me further in gusty conditions and increase control. In 15-20 knots with a 5m I dont have to be efficient, but I like to keep in control if a sudden gust yanks my sail all over the place.

Select to expand quote

Sandman1221 said..

WhiteofHeart said..

WhiteofHeart said..
I think you're still missing 1 critical point of longer harness lines and that is detaching the sail from the sailor in terms of balance and pressure on the foil. With short lines, your sail and you are quite solidly attached, if your sail gets yanked in a gust, you get yanked in a gust and the balance shifts completely. With longer lines the sail can get yanked, but your body can stay put. This is the main reason for me to ride longer lines on the freeride kit. This is regardless of whether or not you dedicate fully to the lines. With my freeride kit I often dodnt have my sail closed anyway, so no dedication really happening there.


If you do dedicate fully to the lines:

In light winds I ride shorter lines regardless of kit choice, as shorter lines are more efficient in terms of power delivery. Any bend at the hips (and/or knees) which is required for weighting longer lines reduces efficiency (and increases control).

Shorter lines (but arms fully extended) moves your shoulders/upper body further away from the sail and puts your body in a naturally rigid 7 position, increasing efficiency. Longer lines moves your shoulders/upper body closer to the sail, less rigid, but lowers your overall weight to increase leverage and thereby increases control.

I would never go as short to need a bend at the elbows, as a bend at the elbows would be indicative of a setup where you start getting worst of both worlds, as you reduce efficiency (distance between your shoulders and the sail), and reduce control (raised center of mass) at the same time.

The maximum length for me where I can extend my shoulders away from the rig maximally and still reach the boom is 28". Anything above 28" and I cannot reach the boom anymore with my shoulders pushed away from the rig (and would thus ride with a bend at the hips to be able to reach the boom). 28" is the optimal harness line length for my body / boom height for maximum efficiency. Anything below will decrease efficiency and control, everything above will decrease efficiency but increase control.

@sandman read this again. Lines which are shorter than optimal (/cause you to have to bend at the elbows) decrease both control and efficiency compared to lines which allow a perfect 7. Efficiency here means power in the rig. In lighter winds in my experience the problem is often not power in the foil, but power in the rig, and having it as far away from you as possible while still remaining rigid (7 stance) means maximum power in the rig as the sail has the most projected surface area, and the least rake backward (resulting in keeping spanwise airflow across the sail to a minimum, increasing power).

Add to that that for a lot of well tuned foil setups, the foil can be overpowering the downforce from the sail in light wind, extending the harness lines to "optimal" length increases mastfoot pressure given any fixed windspeed, allowing you to ride with equal (or more equal) weight across both legs in light winds instead of having to lean forward, increasing efficiency (and thus speed / glide) even more.

For me this "optimal" length is 28", which is about as long as my arm upto the palm of my hand (quite logical I think).

In practice I often run lines a little longer, not so I can sit lower, but so that I can extend the rig away from me further in gusty conditions and increase control. In 15-20 knots with a 5m I dont have to be efficient, but I like to keep in control if a sudden gust yanks my sail all over the place.


To explain why I'm taking the time to answer your question: To me it doesnt matter whether you or LeeD are going to do anything about your setup, want to, or even have to (e.g. you dont have to be 100% efficient all the time right?). I just want to have clear for other users / people who might find this thread in the future that there is an optimal harness line length (for maximum efficiency), and that while it is dependent on a lot of factors, an optimal length can 99% be found at 28" +/- 1".

If you hold your boom at shoulder width, can fully extend your arms and maintain a straight posture without bend at the hips you've found the correct length. If you have to bend at the hips you're "too long" for optimal efficiency, if you have to bend at the elbows you're "too long" for optimal efficiency. The harness line length for optimal control is a lot longer (I think for me around 34", beyond that I start losing control because I'm too low / far away etc.), between those two "optimal" lengths its a tradeoff between efficiency and control.

If you dont have to bend at the elbows / hips, maintain a straight 7 posture and end up with 23" lines either you're a kid or kid sized person, or there's a serious mismatch in your kit (way too large sail for the width probably).

WoH, read it, thanks for taking the time, does not change the physics!, was out yesterday in 8-11 knots with an 8.0 Aerotech Freespeed, AFS W95 with F1080 wing, and Goya Bolt 135 board 80 cm wide, nicely balanced most of the time with bent arms, had the energy at the ends of the runs to do planing gybes and aggressive tacks, because I was using short lines that allowed my harness to hold the sail pressure instead of my arms. I actually had to adjust the seat harness bar down because the 24" lines were too long (but the tubing prevented further shortening). Could still stand flat footed on the deck hooked in with board on the water slogging, but just barely! and probably in only one small area of the deck, really need good balance for that and need use downward pressure on sail mast, but sometimes upward, to prevent the sail from pulling you over.

And a very athletic winger was on the water before me, he looked reasonably fast, but when I got on the water just blew right past him, he tried racing me but was far behind after one lap.

Your response to WOH is a great example of the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink"

Like WOH I adjust the length of my harness lines so my arms are straight when in a relaxed sailing position. If my arms are bent, I get tendonitis around my elbow joint. For me, at 5' 8", the sweet length of harness is 28 to 30 inches. I then adjust boom height to optimise hooking in out out.

If, as you say, your sweet length is 23.5 inches, then either:
- your shorter than me
- your arms are bent (which you have confirmed)
- your boom is too low

If this works for you, then go for it, but it's probably not optimum

Select to expand quote

Paducah said..One reason is because most people start out by shortening their lines from fin windsurfing. They tend to be more over the board, getting their first flights and aren't putting a lot of pressure on their rigs. They are also probably moving their lines forward but that's for another absurdly long thread. Some people get stuck at this stage for various reasons and may not know why they should consider foiling with longer lines. They may instead be unhooking or avoiding being well/overpowered. Others may eventually move their lines back to their finning length and more than a few of us find ourselves on lines longer than finning.

WhiteofHeart, for example gave a very good example above:

WhiteofHeart said..

... For me this "optimal" length is 28", which is about as long as my arm upto the palm of my hand (quite logical I think).

In practice I often run lines a little longer, not so I can sit lower, but so that I can extend the rig away from me further in gusty conditions and increase control. In 15-20 knots with a 5m I dont have to be efficient, but I like to keep in control if a sudden gust yanks my sail all over the place.

^^^ 100% agree with all of that.

Select to expand quote

John340 said..

Sandman1221 said..

WhiteofHeart said..

WhiteofHeart said..
I think you're still missing 1 critical point of longer harness lines and that is detaching the sail from the sailor in terms of balance and pressure on the foil. With short lines, your sail and you are quite solidly attached, if your sail gets yanked in a gust, you get yanked in a gust and the balance shifts completely. With longer lines the sail can get yanked, but your body can stay put. This is the main reason for me to ride longer lines on the freeride kit. This is regardless of whether or not you dedicate fully to the lines. With my freeride kit I often dodnt have my sail closed anyway, so no dedication really happening there.


If you do dedicate fully to the lines:

In light winds I ride shorter lines regardless of kit choice, as shorter lines are more efficient in terms of power delivery. Any bend at the hips (and/or knees) which is required for weighting longer lines reduces efficiency (and increases control).

Shorter lines (but arms fully extended) moves your shoulders/upper body further away from the sail and puts your body in a naturally rigid 7 position, increasing efficiency. Longer lines moves your shoulders/upper body closer to the sail, less rigid, but lowers your overall weight to increase leverage and thereby increases control.

I would never go as short to need a bend at the elbows, as a bend at the elbows would be indicative of a setup where you start getting worst of both worlds, as you reduce efficiency (distance between your shoulders and the sail), and reduce control (raised center of mass) at the same time.

The maximum length for me where I can extend my shoulders away from the rig maximally and still reach the boom is 28". Anything above 28" and I cannot reach the boom anymore with my shoulders pushed away from the rig (and would thus ride with a bend at the hips to be able to reach the boom). 28" is the optimal harness line length for my body / boom height for maximum efficiency. Anything below will decrease efficiency and control, everything above will decrease efficiency but increase control.

@sandman read this again. Lines which are shorter than optimal (/cause you to have to bend at the elbows) decrease both control and efficiency compared to lines which allow a perfect 7. Efficiency here means power in the rig. In lighter winds in my experience the problem is often not power in the foil, but power in the rig, and having it as far away from you as possible while still remaining rigid (7 stance) means maximum power in the rig as the sail has the most projected surface area, and the least rake backward (resulting in keeping spanwise airflow across the sail to a minimum, increasing power).

Add to that that for a lot of well tuned foil setups, the foil can be overpowering the downforce from the sail in light wind, extending the harness lines to "optimal" length increases mastfoot pressure given any fixed windspeed, allowing you to ride with equal (or more equal) weight across both legs in light winds instead of having to lean forward, increasing efficiency (and thus speed / glide) even more.

For me this "optimal" length is 28", which is about as long as my arm upto the palm of my hand (quite logical I think).

In practice I often run lines a little longer, not so I can sit lower, but so that I can extend the rig away from me further in gusty conditions and increase control. In 15-20 knots with a 5m I dont have to be efficient, but I like to keep in control if a sudden gust yanks my sail all over the place.


To explain why I'm taking the time to answer your question: To me it doesnt matter whether you or LeeD are going to do anything about your setup, want to, or even have to (e.g. you dont have to be 100% efficient all the time right?). I just want to have clear for other users / people who might find this thread in the future that there is an optimal harness line length (for maximum efficiency), and that while it is dependent on a lot of factors, an optimal length can 99% be found at 28" +/- 1".

If you hold your boom at shoulder width, can fully extend your arms and maintain a straight posture without bend at the hips you've found the correct length. If you have to bend at the hips you're "too long" for optimal efficiency, if you have to bend at the elbows you're "too long" for optimal efficiency. The harness line length for optimal control is a lot longer (I think for me around 34", beyond that I start losing control because I'm too low / far away etc.), between those two "optimal" lengths its a tradeoff between efficiency and control.

If you dont have to bend at the elbows / hips, maintain a straight 7 posture and end up with 23" lines either you're a kid or kid sized person, or there's a serious mismatch in your kit (way too large sail for the width probably).

WoH, read it, thanks for taking the time, does not change the physics!, was out yesterday in 8-11 knots with an 8.0 Aerotech Freespeed, AFS W95 with F1080 wing, and Goya Bolt 135 board 80 cm wide, nicely balanced most of the time with bent arms, had the energy at the ends of the runs to do planing gybes and aggressive tacks, because I was using short lines that allowed my harness to hold the sail pressure instead of my arms. I actually had to adjust the seat harness bar down because the 24" lines were too long (but the tubing prevented further shortening). Could still stand flat footed on the deck hooked in with board on the water slogging, but just barely! and probably in only one small area of the deck, really need good balance for that and need use downward pressure on sail mast, but sometimes upward, to prevent the sail from pulling you over.

And a very athletic winger was on the water before me, he looked reasonably fast, but when I got on the water just blew right past him, he tried racing me but was far behind after one lap.

Your response to WOH is a great example of the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink"

Like WOH I adjust the length of my harness lines so my arms are straight when in a relaxed sailing position. If my arms are bent, I get tendonitis around my elbow joint. For me, at 5' 8", the sweet length of harness is 28 to 30 inches. I then adjust boom height to optimise hooking in out out.

If, as you say, your sweet length is 23.5 inches, then either:
- your shorter than me
- your arms are bent (which you have confirmed)
- your boom is too low

If this works for you, then go for it, but it's probably not optimum

John, if you are getting tendonitis with bent arms I have to assume you are using your arms to hold the sail pressure, I use short lines and a higher boom (63" deck to top of boom clamp) so I do not need to use my arms to hold the sail! And when a gust hits I just lean out pulling rig windward while pressing on the rail., very locked in feeling, obviously not for everyone!

Maybe mountain biking with regular shoes (long lines) versus clip in shoes (short lines), is an analogy, when clipped in you are part of the bike and that is a good feeling because it allows you to control the bike even in the air, but if you are not careful you can go over and hit the ground if you do not know how to un clip your feet fast enough.

Select to expand quote

Sandman1221 said..

John340 said..

Sandman1221 said..

WhiteofHeart said..

WhiteofHeart said..
I think you're still missing 1 critical point of longer harness lines and that is detaching the sail from the sailor in terms of balance and pressure on the foil. With short lines, your sail and you are quite solidly attached, if your sail gets yanked in a gust, you get yanked in a gust and the balance shifts completely. With longer lines the sail can get yanked, but your body can stay put. This is the main reason for me to ride longer lines on the freeride kit. This is regardless of whether or not you dedicate fully to the lines. With my freeride kit I often dodnt have my sail closed anyway, so no dedication really happening there.


If you do dedicate fully to the lines:

In light winds I ride shorter lines regardless of kit choice, as shorter lines are more efficient in terms of power delivery. Any bend at the hips (and/or knees) which is required for weighting longer lines reduces efficiency (and increases control).

Shorter lines (but arms fully extended) moves your shoulders/upper body further away from the sail and puts your body in a naturally rigid 7 position, increasing efficiency. Longer lines moves your shoulders/upper body closer to the sail, less rigid, but lowers your overall weight to increase leverage and thereby increases control.

I would never go as short to need a bend at the elbows, as a bend at the elbows would be indicative of a setup where you start getting worst of both worlds, as you reduce efficiency (distance between your shoulders and the sail), and reduce control (raised center of mass) at the same time.

The maximum length for me where I can extend my shoulders away from the rig maximally and still reach the boom is 28". Anything above 28" and I cannot reach the boom anymore with my shoulders pushed away from the rig (and would thus ride with a bend at the hips to be able to reach the boom). 28" is the optimal harness line length for my body / boom height for maximum efficiency. Anything below will decrease efficiency and control, everything above will decrease efficiency but increase control.

@sandman read this again. Lines which are shorter than optimal (/cause you to have to bend at the elbows) decrease both control and efficiency compared to lines which allow a perfect 7. Efficiency here means power in the rig. In lighter winds in my experience the problem is often not power in the foil, but power in the rig, and having it as far away from you as possible while still remaining rigid (7 stance) means maximum power in the rig as the sail has the most projected surface area, and the least rake backward (resulting in keeping spanwise airflow across the sail to a minimum, increasing power).

Add to that that for a lot of well tuned foil setups, the foil can be overpowering the downforce from the sail in light wind, extending the harness lines to "optimal" length increases mastfoot pressure given any fixed windspeed, allowing you to ride with equal (or more equal) weight across both legs in light winds instead of having to lean forward, increasing efficiency (and thus speed / glide) even more.

For me this "optimal" length is 28", which is about as long as my arm upto the palm of my hand (quite logical I think).

In practice I often run lines a little longer, not so I can sit lower, but so that I can extend the rig away from me further in gusty conditions and increase control. In 15-20 knots with a 5m I dont have to be efficient, but I like to keep in control if a sudden gust yanks my sail all over the place.


To explain why I'm taking the time to answer your question: To me it doesnt matter whether you or LeeD are going to do anything about your setup, want to, or even have to (e.g. you dont have to be 100% efficient all the time right?). I just want to have clear for other users / people who might find this thread in the future that there is an optimal harness line length (for maximum efficiency), and that while it is dependent on a lot of factors, an optimal length can 99% be found at 28" +/- 1".

If you hold your boom at shoulder width, can fully extend your arms and maintain a straight posture without bend at the hips you've found the correct length. If you have to bend at the hips you're "too long" for optimal efficiency, if you have to bend at the elbows you're "too long" for optimal efficiency. The harness line length for optimal control is a lot longer (I think for me around 34", beyond that I start losing control because I'm too low / far away etc.), between those two "optimal" lengths its a tradeoff between efficiency and control.

If you dont have to bend at the elbows / hips, maintain a straight 7 posture and end up with 23" lines either you're a kid or kid sized person, or there's a serious mismatch in your kit (way too large sail for the width probably).

WoH, read it, thanks for taking the time, does not change the physics!, was out yesterday in 8-11 knots with an 8.0 Aerotech Freespeed, AFS W95 with F1080 wing, and Goya Bolt 135 board 80 cm wide, nicely balanced most of the time with bent arms, had the energy at the ends of the runs to do planing gybes and aggressive tacks, because I was using short lines that allowed my harness to hold the sail pressure instead of my arms. I actually had to adjust the seat harness bar down because the 24" lines were too long (but the tubing prevented further shortening). Could still stand flat footed on the deck hooked in with board on the water slogging, but just barely! and probably in only one small area of the deck, really need good balance for that and need use downward pressure on sail mast, but sometimes upward, to prevent the sail from pulling you over.

And a very athletic winger was on the water before me, he looked reasonably fast, but when I got on the water just blew right past him, he tried racing me but was far behind after one lap.

Your response to WOH is a great example of the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink"

Like WOH I adjust the length of my harness lines so my arms are straight when in a relaxed sailing position. If my arms are bent, I get tendonitis around my elbow joint. For me, at 5' 8", the sweet length of harness is 28 to 30 inches. I then adjust boom height to optimise hooking in out out.

If, as you say, your sweet length is 23.5 inches, then either:
- your shorter than me
- your arms are bent (which you have confirmed)
- your boom is too low

If this works for you, then go for it, but it's probably not optimum

John, if you are getting tendonitis with bent arms I have to assume you are using your arms to hold the sail pressure, I use short lines and a higher boom (63" deck to top of boom clamp) so I do not need to use my arms to hold the sail! And when a gust hits I just lean out pulling rig windward while pressing on the rail., very locked in feeling, obviously not for everyone!

Maybe mountain biking with regular shoes (long lines) versus clip in shoes (short lines), is an analogy, when clipped in you are part of the bike and that is a good feeling because it allows you to control the bike even in the air, but if you are not careful you can go over and hit the ground if you do not know how to un clip your feet fast enough.

Like I said, if it works for you, go for it. But if you don't want to change, don't ask the question.

Select to expand quote

John340 said..

Sandman1221 said..

John340 said..

Sandman1221 said..

WhiteofHeart said..

WhiteofHeart said..
I think you're still missing 1 critical point of longer harness lines and that is detaching the sail from the sailor in terms of balance and pressure on the foil. With short lines, your sail and you are quite solidly attached, if your sail gets yanked in a gust, you get yanked in a gust and the balance shifts completely. With longer lines the sail can get yanked, but your body can stay put. This is the main reason for me to ride longer lines on the freeride kit. This is regardless of whether or not you dedicate fully to the lines. With my freeride kit I often dodnt have my sail closed anyway, so no dedication really happening there.


If you do dedicate fully to the lines:

In light winds I ride shorter lines regardless of kit choice, as shorter lines are more efficient in terms of power delivery. Any bend at the hips (and/or knees) which is required for weighting longer lines reduces efficiency (and increases control).

Shorter lines (but arms fully extended) moves your shoulders/upper body further away from the sail and puts your body in a naturally rigid 7 position, increasing efficiency. Longer lines moves your shoulders/upper body closer to the sail, less rigid, but lowers your overall weight to increase leverage and thereby increases control.

I would never go as short to need a bend at the elbows, as a bend at the elbows would be indicative of a setup where you start getting worst of both worlds, as you reduce efficiency (distance between your shoulders and the sail), and reduce control (raised center of mass) at the same time.

The maximum length for me where I can extend my shoulders away from the rig maximally and still reach the boom is 28". Anything above 28" and I cannot reach the boom anymore with my shoulders pushed away from the rig (and would thus ride with a bend at the hips to be able to reach the boom). 28" is the optimal harness line length for my body / boom height for maximum efficiency. Anything below will decrease efficiency and control, everything above will decrease efficiency but increase control.

@sandman read this again. Lines which are shorter than optimal (/cause you to have to bend at the elbows) decrease both control and efficiency compared to lines which allow a perfect 7. Efficiency here means power in the rig. In lighter winds in my experience the problem is often not power in the foil, but power in the rig, and having it as far away from you as possible while still remaining rigid (7 stance) means maximum power in the rig as the sail has the most projected surface area, and the least rake backward (resulting in keeping spanwise airflow across the sail to a minimum, increasing power).

Add to that that for a lot of well tuned foil setups, the foil can be overpowering the downforce from the sail in light wind, extending the harness lines to "optimal" length increases mastfoot pressure given any fixed windspeed, allowing you to ride with equal (or more equal) weight across both legs in light winds instead of having to lean forward, increasing efficiency (and thus speed / glide) even more.

For me this "optimal" length is 28", which is about as long as my arm upto the palm of my hand (quite logical I think).

In practice I often run lines a little longer, not so I can sit lower, but so that I can extend the rig away from me further in gusty conditions and increase control. In 15-20 knots with a 5m I dont have to be efficient, but I like to keep in control if a sudden gust yanks my sail all over the place.


To explain why I'm taking the time to answer your question: To me it doesnt matter whether you or LeeD are going to do anything about your setup, want to, or even have to (e.g. you dont have to be 100% efficient all the time right?). I just want to have clear for other users / people who might find this thread in the future that there is an optimal harness line length (for maximum efficiency), and that while it is dependent on a lot of factors, an optimal length can 99% be found at 28" +/- 1".

If you hold your boom at shoulder width, can fully extend your arms and maintain a straight posture without bend at the hips you've found the correct length. If you have to bend at the hips you're "too long" for optimal efficiency, if you have to bend at the elbows you're "too long" for optimal efficiency. The harness line length for optimal control is a lot longer (I think for me around 34", beyond that I start losing control because I'm too low / far away etc.), between those two "optimal" lengths its a tradeoff between efficiency and control.

If you dont have to bend at the elbows / hips, maintain a straight 7 posture and end up with 23" lines either you're a kid or kid sized person, or there's a serious mismatch in your kit (way too large sail for the width probably).

WoH, read it, thanks for taking the time, does not change the physics!, was out yesterday in 8-11 knots with an 8.0 Aerotech Freespeed, AFS W95 with F1080 wing, and Goya Bolt 135 board 80 cm wide, nicely balanced most of the time with bent arms, had the energy at the ends of the runs to do planing gybes and aggressive tacks, because I was using short lines that allowed my harness to hold the sail pressure instead of my arms. I actually had to adjust the seat harness bar down because the 24" lines were too long (but the tubing prevented further shortening). Could still stand flat footed on the deck hooked in with board on the water slogging, but just barely! and probably in only one small area of the deck, really need good balance for that and need use downward pressure on sail mast, but sometimes upward, to prevent the sail from pulling you over.

And a very athletic winger was on the water before me, he looked reasonably fast, but when I got on the water just blew right past him, he tried racing me but was far behind after one lap.

Your response to WOH is a great example of the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink"

Like WOH I adjust the length of my harness lines so my arms are straight when in a relaxed sailing position. If my arms are bent, I get tendonitis around my elbow joint. For me, at 5' 8", the sweet length of harness is 28 to 30 inches. I then adjust boom height to optimise hooking in out out.

If, as you say, your sweet length is 23.5 inches, then either:
- your shorter than me
- your arms are bent (which you have confirmed)
- your boom is too low

If this works for you, then go for it, but it's probably not optimum

John, if you are getting tendonitis with bent arms I have to assume you are using your arms to hold the sail pressure, I use short lines and a higher boom (63" deck to top of boom clamp) so I do not need to use my arms to hold the sail! And when a gust hits I just lean out pulling rig windward while pressing on the rail., very locked in feeling, obviously not for everyone!

Maybe mountain biking with regular shoes (long lines) versus clip in shoes (short lines), is an analogy, when clipped in you are part of the bike and that is a good feeling because it allows you to control the bike even in the air, but if you are not careful you can go over and hit the ground if you do not know how to un clip your feet fast enough.

Like I said, if it works for you, go for it. But if you don't want to change, don't ask the question.

Oh, sorry John you missed the title, I was asking what length lines other people were using, not for advice about my line length! My other post "are my harness lines too short" is for that!