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LeeD said..
Hmm....
I use 24" for both, but my widest board for windsurf is 65cm with 43 rail. I sail it "underpowered", about 1.5 meters smaller than guys my size, and always faster and earlier planing.
Some guys are slightly faster in the lulls, but they are pro level sailors with newer slalom gear and 1.5 meter bigger slalom sails.
So my short lines are a result of using the smallest sails and fast freeride gear.

Hey LeeD, thanks for explaining, now I understand why you can use 24" lines for both.

And my harness is loose, giving way maybe 2" from belly when hooked in and loaded.
Lines hang around 9" up away from hook when slogging.

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LeeD said..
And my harness is loose, giving way maybe 2" from belly when hooked in and loaded.
Lines hang around 9" up away from hook when slogging.

I have my harness snug, but the bar can be adjusted up/down and I have it adjusted all the way up, and it still gets pulled higher when hooked in and loaded. And as along as I have enough minimum wind I can stay hooked in slogging, but have to be very careful with my balance otherwise the sail can pull me forward into the water, if I do not unhook fast enough, and that is tricky with short lines that swing. Guy Cribb said to use the thumb to help flip the line out of the hook, and that works for me if I am quick enough.

When I am hooked in and on the water with short lines feel like I am my almost on my toes sometimes and I find that pushing down on the mast via the boom helps the most to prevent going over, but sometimes pulling up on the mast works too. Have not measured the unhooked gap between the hook and line but it is a lot, sometimes I am like, how do I hook in!, but time it with the wind.

Haven't tried it on the race foil gear yet BUT I think this thread has made me realize that my harness lines have been a bit too long in general.
Was just puttering around underpowered on an 8.0 and I tightened them. I was able to much more easily get into the 7 stance. So my default of going almost as long as all my lines would go as default wasn't optimal. I'm expecting my foiling to improve some with that experimentation.

Still I can always improve more but that one tweak has helped immediately.

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Sandman1221 said..
well when I am foiling crosswind with short lines and perfectly balanced in steady winds, and then get hit with a gust, all I have to do is lean outward towards the gust to offset the increased pressure on the sail/harness line while maintaining my heading crosswind, though if the gust is really strong may also head upwind somewhat. Versus longer lines where I would still lean out but have to pull the sail windward with my arms and hold it there, that gets tiring on long runs.

Tried raising your boom?

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aus201 said..

Sandman1221 said..
well when I am foiling crosswind with short lines and perfectly balanced in steady winds, and then get hit with a gust, all I have to do is lean outward towards the gust to offset the increased pressure on the sail/harness line while maintaining my heading crosswind, though if the gust is really strong may also head upwind somewhat. Versus longer lines where I would still lean out but have to pull the sail windward with my arms and hold it there, that gets tiring on long runs.

Tried raising your boom?

boom is as high as I want it, 59" from top of boom clamp to bottom of mast base.

Wow, mast base to highest part of boom clamp for me is 52", sometimes lower in marginal breeze.
That's bottom of cutout for most sails.

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Sandman1221 said..

LeeD said..
And my harness is loose, giving way maybe 2" from belly when hooked in and loaded.
Lines hang around 9" up away from hook when slogging.

I have my harness snug, but the bar can be adjusted up/down and I have it adjusted all the way up, and it still gets pulled higher when hooked in and loaded. And as along as I have enough minimum wind I can stay hooked in slogging, but have to be very careful with my balance otherwise the sail can pull me forward into the water, if I do not unhook fast enough, and that is tricky with short lines that swing. Guy Cribb said to use the thumb to help flip the line out of the hook, and that works for me if I am quick enough.

When I am hooked in and on the water with short lines feel like I am my almost on my toes sometimes and I find that pushing down on the mast via the boom helps the most to prevent going over, but sometimes pulling up on the mast works too. Have not measured the unhooked gap between the hook and line but it is a lot, sometimes I am like, how do I hook in!, but time it with the wind.

You do not need lines this short.

Sure I do....I like sailing and foiling with the smallest sail possible, not the largest.
24" lines allow power when everyone nearly my weight is slogging around and pumping like crazy.
Hooking in only for hard upwind directions.
And don't say I don't have angle, because I foil with the top 5 CalCup racers and a handful of those class racers. No, I can't match their angle when underpowered, but I'm using as much as 4.5 meters smaller sail.

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gorgesailor said..

Sandman1221 said..

LeeD said..
And my harness is loose, giving way maybe 2" from belly when hooked in and loaded.
Lines hang around 9" up away from hook when slogging.

I have my harness snug, but the bar can be adjusted up/down and I have it adjusted all the way up, and it still gets pulled higher when hooked in and loaded. And as along as I have enough minimum wind I can stay hooked in slogging, but have to be very careful with my balance otherwise the sail can pull me forward into the water, if I do not unhook fast enough, and that is tricky with short lines that swing. Guy Cribb said to use the thumb to help flip the line out of the hook, and that works for me if I am quick enough.

When I am hooked in and on the water with short lines feel like I am my almost on my toes sometimes and I find that pushing down on the mast via the boom helps the most to prevent going over, but sometimes pulling up on the mast works too. Have not measured the unhooked gap between the hook and line but it is a lot, sometimes I am like, how do I hook in!, but time it with the wind.

You do not need lines this short.

It not a matter of need, because I do not "need" harness lines for foiling, it is because I like the advantages of short lines!

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LeeD said..
Sure I do....I like sailing and foiling with the smallest sail possible, not the largest.
24" lines allow power when everyone nearly my weight is slogging around and pumping like crazy.
Hooking in only for hard upwind directions.
And don't say I don't have angle, because I foil with the top 5 CalCup racers and a handful of those class racers. No, I can't match their angle when underpowered, but I'm using as much as 4.5 meters smaller sail.

I'm not saying that you or Sandman can't do those thing with short lines.... just saying you don't need them -especially Sandman as his lines are very short for hid build & setup as is evidenced by the issues he describes. Similar to you, he has adapted his style to suit that line length. But he doesn't NEED to. He CAN sail efficiently with longer lines if he want to adapt his technique.

Why would I want longer lines?
Just depowers the sail, which is not a huge gain.
And raising boom....since I rig small, a higher boom is harder to waterstart and pump..when underpowered.
Yes, a higher boom and long lines is great for you long armed pro basketball players with long torsos.
I'm opposite, could not make my college basketball team and have wingspan shorter than my height, besides short torso and relatively long legs.
On a Formula board, I use adj lines 28-34.
On normal freeide board, 24".

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gorgesailor said..

LeeD said..
Sure I do....I like sailing and foiling with the smallest sail possible, not the largest.
24" lines allow power when everyone nearly my weight is slogging around and pumping like crazy.
Hooking in only for hard upwind directions.
And don't say I don't have angle, because I foil with the top 5 CalCup racers and a handful of those class racers. No, I can't match their angle when underpowered, but I'm using as much as 4.5 meters smaller sail.

I'm not saying that you or Sandman can't do those thing with short lines.... just saying you don't need them -especially Sandman as his lines are very short for hid build & setup as is evidenced by the issues he describes. Similar to you, he has adapted his style to suit that line length. But he doesn't NEED to. He CAN sail efficiently with longer lines if he want to adapt his technique.

goregesailer, why do you care so much about my harness line length? seriously, this is getting stranger by the post!

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Sandman1221 said..

gorgesailor said..

LeeD said..
Sure I do....I like sailing and foiling with the smallest sail possible, not the largest.
24" lines allow power when everyone nearly my weight is slogging around and pumping like crazy.
Hooking in only for hard upwind directions.
And don't say I don't have angle, because I foil with the top 5 CalCup racers and a handful of those class racers. No, I can't match their angle when underpowered, but I'm using as much as 4.5 meters smaller sail.

I'm not saying that you or Sandman can't do those thing with short lines.... just saying you don't need them -especially Sandman as his lines are very short for hid build & setup as is evidenced by the issues he describes. Similar to you, he has adapted his style to suit that line length. But he doesn't NEED to. He CAN sail efficiently with longer lines if he want to adapt his technique.

goregesailer, why do you care so much about my harness line length? seriously, this is getting stranger by the post!

I don't - just seems like you think you have no choice. You do.

But what is the GAIN from longer lines?
Why change what's working?
We're not saying short lines are good for everyone...YOU and Grantmac are saying that.
We can only learn from you and Grantmac.

Oh..."better technique" is not a clear explanation to me.
I am not nearly a "skilled" foiler, so I understand there is lots to learn.

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LeeD said..
But what is the GAIN from longer lines?
Why change what's working?
We're not saying short lines are good for everyone...YOU and Grantmac are saying that.
We can only learn from you and Grantmac.

There are certain advantages to short(er) lines, but 24", you're practically kissing the sail when hooked in.

Longer lines prevent more "intimate" moments with your sail when you get hit by a gust, and allow you to get your weight off the side of the board and maintain an upright rig. If theyre too short, the rig slants over with you which equates to lost power from the rig. Im a short ass, but the shortest i'll ever use for slalom is 28". Just the other day even that felt too short.

can you lay the palms of your hands on your boom with outstretched arms, without arching your back past straight in a backwards curve? Im going to hazard a guess that the wind where you are is mainly moderate to light, thats why youre getting away with using 24" lines.

I sail in the 2nd lightest spot in San Francisco Bay...Berkeley.
Average foil days are 11-22. 4.2 sail most used.
Average slalom days are 15-24. 5.8 sail.
Average bump days are 18-30. Mph. 4.5 sail.
Foil days can drop to 2-15, but maybe 5 times a season.
When the fastest slalom sailors show up, guys with National letters and numbers, I have no problem sailing as fast or jibing as well, usually with 1-2 meter smaller sail and fast freeride boards. I'd get dusted coming out of jibes in dirty air and water, of course.
Since I use adjustable lines, I find the shortest setting the best, and no need to hook in on a swell or downwind.
Slalom board reaching angle is slow and unhooked.

Big misconception here. Longer lines power up the sail, raking it overtop of yourself depowers it. Nobody who is a good slalom or race foiler is on short lines. Actually that applies to wavesailers too, even the little guys are on +30" with many on 32-34". Most of them have the lines well under their hook slogging.

Thanks for the insight, Grantmac.
My hands are mostly 24" apart. 24" lines, loose harness because I like comfort and can't be bothered tightening them all the way.
Low booms, middle of boom to bottom of mast base is 50-52" for wave and freeride, 54" for slalom, 60" for Formula, which I haven't done in 8 years.
Most used foil sail is 4.2. I have 3.7 to 8.2 sails.
Not sure I like my harness lines lower than my hook, but it would make hooked in slogging really easy.
No matter, I'm 73 and surf sailing is well out of reality.
Here, surfsailing is done in 50 degree weather, 52 degree water, and mostly head high mushy surf...Waddell, Davenport, Palo Marin, and Limintour.

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Grantmac said..
Big misconception here. Longer lines power up the sail, raking it overtop of yourself depowers it. Nobody who is a good slalom or race foiler is on short lines. Actually that applies to wavesailers too, even the little guys are on +30" with many on 32-34". Most of them have the lines well under their hook slogging.

Grantmac, you are so right!, I finally tested long lines out yesterday, wow what a difference, I went with 44" lines because longer is better right? Man what a difference 44" lines made, thank you so much!

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LeeD said..
But what is the GAIN from longer lines?
Why change what's working?
We're not saying short lines are good for everyone...YOU and Grantmac are saying that.
We can only learn from you and Grantmac.

You can get low and keep control over the rig in gusts even while sheeting out. You can also drive the board harder when not totally overpowered. That's how little 168cm/62kg me is fine with a 7.0 in 22+ kt gusts and a freeride 2cam sail instead of running back in and grabbing my 4.7 just in time for the next 8 kt lull. It also gives you some extra length for going downwind powered up when you can't fully close the sail but still want to be hooked in. While I often unhook freeriding downwind, it's also nice to rest up if you aren't in curvy mode.

You can go shorter but you limit your range as Subsonic suggests. It's not necessary to unhook in a big gust as some here think - it can actually be counterproductive.

Sam Ross at around 0:50 and see what happens when he gets up and closer to the rig at 1:25ish

So you are using race boards gear and technique for freeride foiling. Hmmmm....smart.

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LeeD said..
So you are using race boards gear and technique for freeride foiling. Hmmmm....smart.

Yeah, we need to buy super wide race boards at $2-3k, and the foils that go with them for another $2-3k, and I guess some race sails too!, just so we can stand way out on the rails to have long lines!

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Sandman1221 said..Yeah, we need to buy super wide race boards at $2-3k, and the foils that go with them for another $2-3k, and I guess some race sails too!, just so we can stand way out on the rails to have long lines!

I think longer lines are useful (even on small boards) if you like foiling powered-up in big swells.
As others have said keeping the rig away from my body gives more time to react to lift-boosts from swells and leaning out allows me to counter-balance the sail power.
I think most will find it easier in bigger chop with 30+ lines.

The board in the pix is 172 x 69 cm - 87L
36 inch lines, I'm 6 ft.

It's what works for me - if short lines work for your conditions it's all good

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LeeD said..
So you are using race boards gear and technique for freeride foiling. Hmmmm....smart.

Use 91/220 board with 8 and 7 and race foils (650-900 generally); 78/198 with 5.4 and down with freeride foil (1100). Lines 27-29 and 26-27 respectively. My comments work for me in wind from the single digits to 30. Again, lighter and probably a lot shorter than most posters here with little t-rex arms.

Just because I'm sometimes on freeride gear doesn't mean I don't want to push it to stay with friends or need to go a mile or two back upwind. We often stray a few miles from the launch so being comfortable with the gear in variable conditions is necessary unless I want to get an uber back home.

As for your assumptions about what and how I ride... let's just say that you are, indeed, consistent.

My purpose for posting this topic was to see how short people's lines were, not to have people try to tell me I am using lines that are too short and because of that doing it all wrong. Seriously, I felt incredible balance and control, including in the gusts, after getting down to 23.5" lines on my kit, and I just wanted to share that.

Paducah, you are awfully angry.
We're talking harness line lengths, not racial issues or Russian politics.
We already mentioned we hook in only upwind and powered. Don't need 34" lines for that.

Group HUG to Marty and Paducah!

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LeeD said..
Paducah, you are awfully angry.
We're talking harness line lengths, not racial issues or Russian politics.
We already mentioned we hook in only upwind and powered. Don't need 34" lines for that.

No, just really, really tired of certain things. You asked what the advantages of longer lines are. I responded where and how they can be of value. Told I'm "smart" for freeriding racing gear and now told I don't need 34" lines when I just said that little short me uses 26-29 depending on my gear choice and how I find that to be of use.

Like I said, consistency is one of your strong suits.