Just came in, 6.7 in 9-17 breeze.
My 24" lines get me upwind and powered.
Letting them out to maybe 28 totally depowers the sail, sitting upright with no rake. Good for downwind, making a need for an 8 meter sail in that breeze.
With 24" lines, I might have been fine with a 5.0.

This is the exact same conversation I have with archers who lack the skill and experience to understand why their technique and equipment will keep them permanently stuck in a low performance mode. They simply don't know that they aren't performing well.

Well, we can't all be World Record breaking Olympians like you.
Some of us have to hold the foundation while you strut around at the top.

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LeeD said..
Windfoil, I hook in only for upwind and lightly powered reaching.
Powered reaching for me is scary, so I unhook.
Downwind, mostly unhooked as there is very little pull, and I'm mostly zigzagging and needing to sheet in at initiation of turns and sheeting out at recovery.

That's pretty much me as well. My lines are about the same as as the SS Pic below, and my corresponding lean angle going upwind.

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swoosh said..
Longer harness lines allows you to get your CoG further outboard which means more righting moment. More righting moment means that you can better convert gusts of wind into an increase in forward velocity. With less righting moment, gusts are more likely to pull you off balance, which you compensate for by having to sheet out or constantly wrestling your sail for control.

With longer lines your harness lines hang more vertical, which means that a gust needs to lift your whole body weight. Whereas with shorter lines your harness lines are more horizontal which means you are easier to unbalance.

Lastly, longer lines give you more space to the sail. So you don't have to unhook in gusts to make space to sheet our your sail.

Longer harness lines simply mean you can more efficiently use the all the wind power available to you. Righting moment is simply one of those things in sailing that regardless of any other factor that, you can never have enough of.

This is less critical if you are typically riding underpowered on big foils and small sails, and more critical if you are full race mode.

So to reference back to your original post. If you learn the stance/technique to sail with longer lines, you shouldnt have to work as hard controlling your sail in gusts or sheet our or need to do the thing where you have to preemptively unhook to give yourself space to arm wrestle with the sail. Just hook and get your weight into the harness and squeeze that accelerator when that gust hits.

Definitely love being able to sheet out while still hooked in and not losing all that mast foot pressure. More vertical force = great control over mast foot pressure too...

First rule of foiling: if you are not having the success you want start moving things around.

I haven't used harness lines in 40 years. It must be right. Just wanted to increase my post count, because I have nothing to do.

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LeeD said..
Just came in, 6.7 in 9-17 breeze.
My 24" lines get me upwind and powered.
Letting them out to maybe 28 totally depowers the sail, sitting upright with no rake. Good for downwind, making a need for an 8 meter sail in that breeze.
With 24" lines, I might have been fine with a 5.0.

Good to hear LeeD, sounds like my experience too, thanks!

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ZeroVix said..
I haven't used harness lines in 40 years. It must be right. Just wanted to increase my post count, because I have nothing to do.

me either

Well I want to thank everyone for their input and own personal experience, it has been very interesting reading all the responses. The old saying, "different horses for different courses" certainly applies here, in that different length harness lines are used for different kits. At least that is what I understand from all this

I was curious about this and tired so I fiddled a bit yesterday on my big windsup and 9.5 in light wind, didn't want the complication of a foil and it would've been a pumpfest.

All my harness lines are now adjustable.

Anyway, in light winds I tightened up the harness lines. It seemed that I got a little bit more upwind power with the daggerboard down and with the lines shorter, not sure the length because I didn't measure. I also focused on rolling my shoulders back, getting my arms as straight as possible, and straightening out my body.

In gusts it felt better to lengthen them, as I almost got my big pig of a windsup planing, kicking up the daggerboard.

I'll experiment more with my race foil gear next time, as I think getting them shorter helps me line up my shoulders/hips/knees/ankles for upwind power. But, I really do like the feel of longer lines when I'm not heading upwind and am doing more downwind and reaching. I've been in a sweet spot before where I felt really balanced and almost effortless on the race foil but I'm not sure what was different about my trim that day or if it was just the conditions.

well when I am foiling crosswind with short lines and perfectly balanced in steady winds, and then get hit with a gust, all I have to do is lean outward towards the gust to offset the increased pressure on the sail/harness line while maintaining my heading crosswind, though if the gust is really strong may also head upwind somewhat. Versus longer lines where I would still lean out but have to pull the sail windward with my arms and hold it there, that gets tiring on long runs.

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Sandman1221 said..
well when I am foiling crosswind with short lines and perfectly balanced in steady winds, and then get hit with a gust, all I have to do is lean outward towards the gust to offset the increased pressure on the sail/harness line while maintaining my heading crosswind, though if the gust is really strong may also head upwind somewhat. Versus longer lines where I would still lean out but have to pull the sail windward with my arms and hold it there, that gets tiring on long runs.

Honestly I think I'd have to get some video while foiling and tweaking line length in order to speak intelligently on this. Even on the SUP I had to adjust in order to load the harness and keep my arms straight.

Harness line length is nothing but a preferred choice!

If you are tall and have long limbs there's a real probability, you're in the 30-34" range. I have short arms it seems (always have to tailor the arms on an evening suit for example) and even when windsurfing used fairly short lines,

When I used race foil type set ups my boom was nose height with 30" lines, now that I only free foil, I use a shoulder/just under chin boom height with 28" lines, when I am chasing swell and waves, I like to unhook really quick and often foil for long distances unhooked, the longer lines would sometimes get in the way...but that's just me

Pic from Saturday 20mph wind on 4.5, nice and balanced

aero, I definitely have long arms and that may be why it took me so long to go to short lines, wanted to have my arms straight when hooked in, but finally realized that on my kit that if I wanted 100% sail pressure on the hook I needed to have bent arms with short lines. So when I lean out in a gust all the sail pressure is on the hook, and my arms are relaxed and bent at the elbows. Definitely want to be careful, because there is not a lot of room (lean angle) for error. It is like with long lines I have say 45 degrees of lean angle to play with (just an example not necessarily accurate), and with short lines I have say 25 degrees of lean angle to play with (again just an example). So when a gust hits me with short lines I have to react faster than with long lines if I want to stay on course, lean out while pushing hard with both feet against board rail. I feel like an integral part of the kit with short lines, versus long lines I feel like I am managing the kit. The big plus for me is my arms do not get tired and/or sore even when out for several hours on the water. Kinda like windsurfing where you have to have all the sail pressure in the hook, and your body becomes an integral part of the kit by necessity, not choice, when planing long distances. Now when foiling going almost straight downwind I am unhooked and loose and managing the kit, but like LeeD said not much sail pressure then, so relatively easy on the arms which are rested because I was hooked in with short lines on the crosswind runs.

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Sandman1221 said..
aero, I definitely have long arms and that may be why it took me so long to go to short lines, wanted to have my arms straight when hooked in, but finally realized that on my kit that if I wanted 100% sail pressure on the hook I needed to have bent arms with short lines. So when I lean out in a gust all the sail pressure is on the hook, and my arms are relaxed and bent at the elbows. Definitely want to be careful, because there is not a lot of room (lean angle) for error. It is like with long lines I have say 45 degrees of lean angle to play with (just an example not necessarily accurate), and with short lines I have say 25 degrees of lean angle to play with (again just an example). So when a gust hits me with short lines I have to react faster than with long lines if I want to stay on course, lean out while pushing hard with both feet against board rail. I feel like an integral part of the kit with short lines, versus long lines I feel like I am managing the kit. The big plus for me is my arms do not get tired and/or sore even when out for several hours on the water. Kinda like windsurfing where you have to have all the sail pressure in the hook, and your body becomes an integral part of the kit by necessity, not choice, when planing long distances. Now when foiling going almost straight downwind I am unhooked and loose and managing the kit, but like LeeD said not much sail pressure then, so relatively easy on the arms which are rested because I was hooked in with short lines on the crosswind runs.

Yeah I'm not sure what to say.

My serious, first windsurfing lesson ever was only about a month ago, and it was a humbling experience. I think I've been doing a lot wrong. So, a lot of my previous videos and all of that with windsurfing was likely with poor technique?

I have recently been able to sail with almost all of the effort in the harness, and not my arms. Windsurfing or windfoiling, doesn't matter. I realized that I wasn't committing fully. And it seemed like the harness lines were on the long side, but like I said I have never measured. But, I know that I am committing more because I am not getting burned out arms and cramps every time like I was getting.

And, with my race foil, I hardly ever sail out of the harness unless I am puckered up scared for my life, which doesn't happen unless it's gusting up to 20kts on the 9.0. Otherwise, I try to lean into the harness even downwind, but often keep my back foot out of the strap. But I've had lots of darts thrown at my posture but I don't know right for wrong unless I'm talking to the pros, honestly.

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aeroegnr said..

Sandman1221 said..
aero, I definitely have long arms and that may be why it took me so long to go to short lines, wanted to have my arms straight when hooked in, but finally realized that on my kit that if I wanted 100% sail pressure on the hook I needed to have bent arms with short lines. So when I lean out in a gust all the sail pressure is on the hook, and my arms are relaxed and bent at the elbows. Definitely want to be careful, because there is not a lot of room (lean angle) for error. It is like with long lines I have say 45 degrees of lean angle to play with (just an example not necessarily accurate), and with short lines I have say 25 degrees of lean angle to play with (again just an example). So when a gust hits me with short lines I have to react faster than with long lines if I want to stay on course, lean out while pushing hard with both feet against board rail. I feel like an integral part of the kit with short lines, versus long lines I feel like I am managing the kit. The big plus for me is my arms do not get tired and/or sore even when out for several hours on the water. Kinda like windsurfing where you have to have all the sail pressure in the hook, and your body becomes an integral part of the kit by necessity, not choice, when planing long distances. Now when foiling going almost straight downwind I am unhooked and loose and managing the kit, but like LeeD said not much sail pressure then, so relatively easy on the arms which are rested because I was hooked in with short lines on the crosswind runs.

Yeah I'm not sure what to say.

My serious, first windsurfing lesson ever was only about a month ago, and it was a humbling experience. I think I've been doing a lot wrong. So, a lot of my previous videos and all of that with windsurfing was likely with poor technique?

I have recently been able to sail with almost all of the effort in the harness, and not my arms. Windsurfing or windfoiling, doesn't matter. I realized that I wasn't committing fully. And it seemed like the harness lines were on the long side, but like I said I have never measured. But, I know that I am committing more because I am not getting burned out arms and cramps every time like I was getting.

And, with my race foil, I hardly ever sail out of the harness unless I am puckered up scared for my life, which doesn't happen unless it's gusting up to 20kts on the 9.0. Otherwise, I try to lean into the harness even downwind, but often keep my back foot out of the strap. But I've had lots of darts thrown at my posture but I don't know right for wrong unless I'm talking to the pros, honestly.

Well it is hard to commit to the harness when foiling in gusty conditions cause you can get hurt and/or damage equipment more easily. All I can say is when 100% of sail pressure is in the hook you feel like part of the kit and you stop trying to use your arms or feet to control the kit, but instead use body language (that is the best I could come up with) to respond to gusts. When you get it you will know it!

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aeroegnr said..

Sandman1221 said..
aero, I definitely have long arms and that may be why it took me so long to go to short lines, wanted to have my arms straight when hooked in, but finally realized that on my kit that if I wanted 100% sail pressure on the hook I needed to have bent arms with short lines. So when I lean out in a gust all the sail pressure is on the hook, and my arms are relaxed and bent at the elbows. Definitely want to be careful, because there is not a lot of room (lean angle) for error. It is like with long lines I have say 45 degrees of lean angle to play with (just an example not necessarily accurate), and with short lines I have say 25 degrees of lean angle to play with (again just an example). So when a gust hits me with short lines I have to react faster than with long lines if I want to stay on course, lean out while pushing hard with both feet against board rail. I feel like an integral part of the kit with short lines, versus long lines I feel like I am managing the kit. The big plus for me is my arms do not get tired and/or sore even when out for several hours on the water. Kinda like windsurfing where you have to have all the sail pressure in the hook, and your body becomes an integral part of the kit by necessity, not choice, when planing long distances. Now when foiling going almost straight downwind I am unhooked and loose and managing the kit, but like LeeD said not much sail pressure then, so relatively easy on the arms which are rested because I was hooked in with short lines on the crosswind runs.

Yeah I'm not sure what to say.

My serious, first windsurfing lesson ever was only about a month ago, and it was a humbling experience. I think I've been doing a lot wrong. So, a lot of my previous videos and all of that with windsurfing was likely with poor technique?

I have recently been able to sail with almost all of the effort in the harness, and not my arms. Windsurfing or windfoiling, doesn't matter. I realized that I wasn't committing fully. And it seemed like the harness lines were on the long side, but like I said I have never measured. But, I know that I am committing more because I am not getting burned out arms and cramps every time like I was getting.

And, with my race foil, I hardly ever sail out of the harness unless I am puckered up scared for my life, which doesn't happen unless it's gusting up to 20kts on the 9.0. Otherwise, I try to lean into the harness even downwind, but often keep my back foot out of the strap. But I've had lots of darts thrown at my posture but I don't know right for wrong unless I'm talking to the pros, honestly.

When you commit 100% to the harness you are at greater risk for getting hurt and/or damaging equipment, so it is hard to do. But when 100% of the sail pressure is in the hook you stop using your arms and feet to control the kit, but instead use body language (best I could think of) to move the kit. When you get it you will know it! The best example I can think of is technical mountain biking clipped in (think Alifia State Park black diamond trails), being clipped in you become one with the bike and use your body to move the bike.

I think you're still missing 1 critical point of longer harness lines and that is detaching the sail from the sailor in terms of balance and pressure on the foil. With short lines, your sail and you are quite solidly attached, if your sail gets yanked in a gust, you get yanked in a gust and the balance shifts completely. With longer lines the sail can get yanked, but your body can stay put. This is the main reason for me to ride longer lines on the freeride kit. This is regardless of whether or not you dedicate fully to the lines. With my freeride kit I often dodnt have my sail closed anyway, so no dedication really happening there.


If you do dedicate fully to the lines:

In light winds I ride shorter lines regardless of kit choice, as shorter lines are more efficient in terms of power delivery. Any bend at the hips (and/or knees) which is required for weighting longer lines reduces efficiency (and increases control).

Shorter lines (but arms fully extended) moves your shoulders/upper body further away from the sail and puts your body in a naturally rigid 7 position, increasing efficiency. Longer lines moves your shoulders/upper body closer to the sail, less rigid, but lowers your overall weight to increase leverage and thereby increases control.

I would never go as short to need a bend at the elbows, as a bend at the elbows would be indicative of a setup where you start getting worst of both worlds, as you reduce efficiency (distance between your shoulders and the sail), and reduce control (raised center of mass) at the same time.

The maximum length for me where I can extend my shoulders away from the rig maximally and still reach the boom is 28". Anything above 28" and I cannot reach the boom anymore with my shoulders pushed away from the rig (and would thus ride with a bend at the hips to be able to reach the boom). 28" is the optimal harness line length for my body / boom height for maximum efficiency. Anything below will decrease efficiency and control, everything above will decrease efficiency but increase control.

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WhiteofHeart said..
I think you're still missing 1 critical point of longer harness lines and that is detaching the sail from the sailor in terms of balance and pressure on the foil. With short lines, your sail and you are quite solidly attached, if your sail gets yanked in a gust, you get yanked in a gust and the balance shifts completely. With longer lines the sail can get yanked, but your body can stay put. This is the main reason for me to ride longer lines on the freeride kit. This is regardless of whether or not you dedicate fully to the lines. With my freeride kit I often dodnt have my sail closed anyway, so no dedication really happening there.


If you do dedicate fully to the lines:

In light winds I ride shorter lines regardless of kit choice, as shorter lines are more efficient in terms of power delivery. Any bend at the hips which is required for weighting longer lines reduces efficiency (and increases control).

Shorter lines (but arms fully extended) moves your shoulders/upper body further away from the sail and puts your body in a naturally rigid 7 position, increasing efficiency. Longer lines moves your shoulders/upper body closer to the sail, less rigid, but lowers your overall weight to increase leverage and thereby increases control.

I would never go as short to need a bend at the elbows, as a bend at the elbows would be indicative of a setup where you start getting worst of both worlds, as you reduce efficiency (distance between your shoulders and the sail), and reduce control (raised center of mass) at the same time.

The maximum length for me where I can extend my shoulders away from the rig maximally and still reach the boom is 28". Anything above 28" and I cannot reach the boom anymore with my shoulders pushed away from the rig (and would thus ride with a bend at the hips to be able to reach the boom). 28" is the optimal harness line length for my body / boom height for maximum efficiency. Anything below will decrease efficiency and control, everything above will decrease efficiency but increase control.

Thank you, I think this is filling in some missing gaps from my self-taught posture. It's something I'll need to fix now that I'm more aware of it.

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WhiteofHeart said..
I think you're still missing 1 critical point of longer harness lines and that is detaching the sail from the sailor in terms of balance and pressure on the foil. With short lines, your sail and you are quite solidly attached, if your sail gets yanked in a gust, you get yanked in a gust and the balance shifts completely. With longer lines the sail can get yanked, but your body can stay put. This is the main reason for me to ride longer lines on the freeride kit. This is regardless of whether or not you dedicate fully to the lines. With my freeride kit I often dodnt have my sail closed anyway, so no dedication really happening there.


If you do dedicate fully to the lines:

In light winds I ride shorter lines regardless of kit choice, as shorter lines are more efficient in terms of power delivery. Any bend at the hips (and/or knees) which is required for weighting longer lines reduces efficiency (and increases control).

Shorter lines (but arms fully extended) moves your shoulders/upper body further away from the sail and puts your body in a naturally rigid 7 position, increasing efficiency. Longer lines moves your shoulders/upper body closer to the sail, less rigid, but lowers your overall weight to increase leverage and thereby increases control.

I would never go as short to need a bend at the elbows, as a bend at the elbows would be indicative of a setup where you start getting worst of both worlds, as you reduce efficiency (distance between your shoulders and the sail), and reduce control (raised center of mass) at the same time.

The maximum length for me where I can extend my shoulders away from the rig maximally and still reach the boom is 28". Anything above 28" and I cannot reach the boom anymore with my shoulders pushed away from the rig (and would thus ride with a bend at the hips to be able to reach the boom). 28" is the optimal harness line length for my body / boom height for maximum efficiency. Anything below will decrease efficiency and control, everything above will decrease efficiency but increase control.

How tall are you?

Me, 5'10" and 3/4 height, wingspan 5'9" 1/2.
Skinny shoulder short arms.

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WillyWind said..

WhiteofHeart said..
I think you're still missing 1 critical point of longer harness lines and that is detaching the sail from the sailor in terms of balance and pressure on the foil. With short lines, your sail and you are quite solidly attached, if your sail gets yanked in a gust, you get yanked in a gust and the balance shifts completely. With longer lines the sail can get yanked, but your body can stay put. This is the main reason for me to ride longer lines on the freeride kit. This is regardless of whether or not you dedicate fully to the lines. With my freeride kit I often dodnt have my sail closed anyway, so no dedication really happening there.


If you do dedicate fully to the lines:

In light winds I ride shorter lines regardless of kit choice, as shorter lines are more efficient in terms of power delivery. Any bend at the hips (and/or knees) which is required for weighting longer lines reduces efficiency (and increases control).

Shorter lines (but arms fully extended) moves your shoulders/upper body further away from the sail and puts your body in a naturally rigid 7 position, increasing efficiency. Longer lines moves your shoulders/upper body closer to the sail, less rigid, but lowers your overall weight to increase leverage and thereby increases control.

I would never go as short to need a bend at the elbows, as a bend at the elbows would be indicative of a setup where you start getting worst of both worlds, as you reduce efficiency (distance between your shoulders and the sail), and reduce control (raised center of mass) at the same time.

The maximum length for me where I can extend my shoulders away from the rig maximally and still reach the boom is 28". Anything above 28" and I cannot reach the boom anymore with my shoulders pushed away from the rig (and would thus ride with a bend at the hips to be able to reach the boom). 28" is the optimal harness line length for my body / boom height for maximum efficiency. Anything below will decrease efficiency and control, everything above will decrease efficiency but increase control.

How tall are you?

194cm / 6'4" 3/8

Arm length 75cm / 29.5 inches.

Wingspan 195cm / 6'4" 49/64 (why you do this imperials??)

Arm length / wingspan is from tip of middle finger.

Imagine the line length needed for Moses Moody at 6'4" and 7'1" wingspan.

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LeeD said..
Imagine the line length needed for Moses Moody at 6'4" and 7'1" wingspan.

Haha, at least 31" by my estimation ;)

And yet, some on here say you need 32-34" lines in order to prove you have good technique

I do not know how the type of harness affects line length, since I have always used a seat harness, but the seat harness hook is ~1 cm below where a waist harness hook is on me (store demo boom and harness).

Maybe the Dakine Reflex seat harness is allowing me to use shorter lines? Maybe it is that a seat harness pulls the boom down and out, whereas a waist harness just pulls the boom straight out. So I can not lean into my seat harness with longer lines because the seat harness hook is moving downward too much to engage the longer line. I really like my seat harness and have no plans to change.

That said, WoH warning about the dangers of short lines is correct, as I pointed out too, but other than getting caught in the harness line when on the water slogging, and getting pulled over by the sail into the water, I have not had a crash while in-flight with the 23.5" lines, so far.

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CoreAS said..
Harness line length is nothing but a preferred choice!

If you are tall and have long limbs there's a real probability, you're in the 30-34" range. I have short arms it seems (always have to tailor the arms on an evening suit for example) and even when windsurfing used fairly short lines,

When I used race foil type set ups my boom was nose height with 30" lines, now that I only free foil, I use a shoulder/just under chin boom height with 28" lines, when I am chasing swell and waves, I like to unhook really quick and often foil for long distances unhooked, the longer lines would sometimes get in the way...but that's just me

Pic from Saturday 20mph wind on 4.5, nice and balanced

High boom, long lines & waist harness. Probably about same wind strength--but totally different setup. It's almost like a different sport

Seat harness, 24" lines for windfoil and windsurf freeride.

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LeeD said..
Seat harness, 24" lines for windfoil and windsurf freeride.

See that is the problem for me, I always used 32" lines windsurfing with a seat harness on a nearly identical board dimension wise, but while that seat harness was a Dakine XT it still does not explain the big difference with my 23.5" lines for foiling. It is just with foiling there is a lot less pressure on the sail, so I can not lean out as far, because my effective body weight increases the father it gets from the centerline of the board.

Hmm....
I use 24" for both, but my widest board for windsurf is 65cm with 43 rail. I sail it "underpowered", about 1.5 meters smaller than guys my size, and always faster and earlier planing.
Some guys are slightly faster in the lulls, but they are pro level sailors with newer slalom gear and 1.5 meter bigger slalom sails.
So my short lines are a result of using the smallest sails and fast freeride gear.