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Sandman1221 said..
I agree, the pros know how to go fast, but they are on foil boards 90-100 cm wide "at the tail", and that makes long lines necessary due to the geometry.

Only in light air or course racing. First of all, 91 is the PWA max which they use as light air board. A lot of time fast riders are on mid 80s and even 70s. A lot of the pics you see of NG ripping, he's on an 85 or even 78.

According to Phantom
"Here is the gear used by Nico Goyard during the [Le Defi Superstars] challenge:

combo 12-17 knots: IRIS Rf 7 / R91/ 430/ fuselage 100/ stab 175
combo 17/24 knots: IRIS RF 6m/ R85 / 430 / fuselage 100/ stab 175
Combo 24/ 31 knots: IRIS RF 5.1/ R78 / 350/ fuselage 100/ stab 175
Combo 31/38 knots: IRIS RF 4.3 / R78/350 / fuselage 100/ stab 175"

Guy knocking out 29.5 on a 72cm board

www.facebook.com/pierre.tavish/videos/903185270366679

For me it's the same as sailing with a fin: Well powered I like long lines, marginally powered short lines are more comfortable, especially upwind. Long lines help with control and mast foot pressure. Nothing to do with board type or size, fin or foil. I have 30" lines on my wave boom and 28-34" vario lines on my slalom booms, both used for fin and foil. With both fin and foil I would be more comfortable with 26" when marginally powered, but that is not what I rig for

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Sandman1221 said..

Grantmac said..
Sure you can be humped over and inefficient one handed. Getting the rig upright and efficient requires a long set of lines, if you don't have good technique you won't be able to keep those longer lines engaged.
6' 92kg everything from a 1700cm2 low aspect to 800cm race foil use the same line length. Proper race board probably 34" like the good sailors use.

Ah, a really wide board Grantmac, of course you have longer lines, you need them for proper stance. For my Goya Bolt at 31.5"wide in the middle but only 17" wide at the tail where I place my rear foot, the 23.5" lines work perfect!

My board is 72cm wide with a narrow tail.

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Sandman1221 said..

LeeD said..
well, with 24" lines, I can "fly" one handed with a 78 liter wave, 85 liter bump, 95-111 slalom, and 73cm foil boards...
Does that really mean anything?

Yes, it means there are at least two foilers here that use really short lines, even though we have very different builds/weights, and that means there is something in the geometry of balancing the board separate from the foiler.

The similarity is poor technique.

Well of course short lines mean lack of skill and anyone with long lines are always the best pro sailors. What else is new?

Maybe one of the resident Pros can you give me a little input on my harness lines.

How do they look?

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Paducah said..

Sandman1221 said..
I agree, the pros know how to go fast, but they are on foil boards 90-100 cm wide "at the tail", and that makes long lines necessary due to the geometry.

Only in light air or course racing. First of all, 91 is the PWA max which they use as light air board. A lot of time fast riders are on mid 80s and even 70s. A lot of the pics you see of NG ripping, he's on an 85 or even 78.

According to Phantom
"Here is the gear used by Nico Goyard during the [Le Defi Superstars] challenge:

combo 12-17 knots: IRIS Rf 7 / R91/ 430/ fuselage 100/ stab 175
combo 17/24 knots: IRIS RF 6m/ R85 / 430 / fuselage 100/ stab 175
Combo 24/ 31 knots: IRIS RF 5.1/ R78 / 350/ fuselage 100/ stab 175
Combo 31/38 knots: IRIS RF 4.3 / R78/350 / fuselage 100/ stab 175"

Guy knocking out 29.5 on a 72cm board

www.facebook.com/pierre.tavish/videos/903185270366679

Paducah you are giving extreme examples to support using long lines!, I mean to go that fast you need to be borderline over powered in really high winds. That is not the average conditions I sail in!

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Grantmac said..

Sandman1221 said..

LeeD said..
well, with 24" lines, I can "fly" one handed with a 78 liter wave, 85 liter bump, 95-111 slalom, and 73cm foil boards...
Does that really mean anything?

Yes, it means there are at least two foilers here that use really short lines, even though we have very different builds/weights, and that means there is something in the geometry of balancing the board separate from the foiler.

The similarity is poor technique.

Are you okay Grantmac?, I mean life wise and all? You keep saying I and now LeeD have poor technique, and that tells me you are just not very happy, so why not try working on enjoying your life more, instead of trying to convince me that I have poor technique? Because I know my technique is good, so I am now concerned about your mental health, seriously.

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Gwarn said..
Maybe one of the resident Pros can you give me a little input on my harness lines.

How do they look?

Bad angle. Can you go back out and retake the shot? ??

With the Freeride technique in Windfoiling - you stand upright and harness lines are short.

with the race technique in windfoiling - you place your weight out of the board and completely in the harness: so the lines are long, and getting longer (I use 28-34). And with short lines - you cannot bring your weight wide enough outside the board, tilt the board, control the mast base and so on.

If I look on this little image of Sandman1221 (bytheway, your reply to grantmac is disgusting!) or what I read my LeeD - you both are doing freeride-windfoiling - so your short harness lines are perfect (for you) but not for any 91 foilracer.

What's the title of this thread?
Is this reserved specifically for you famous racer dudes?

If you aren't able to put your ego aside and say "the people much better than me are all doing X and I'm over here doing Y" then you'll never progress, especially if you live in a place where nobody is better than you are. Given how slow your local kitefoilers are I'd say you're in an area of marginal competence.

I see this ALL the time in the online archery community, people think they are competent because they've never seen anyone who is actually good at it perform. Those same folks usually have a bunch of setup or technique issues that they think are working for them but they really just don't know how poor their own performance is.

DLee has a different issue, he gained a degree of competency in an era where the equipment was different and is too old to adjust to a more modern and efficient style. Fortunately he lives in the windiest major city in North America, efficiency doesn't really matter.

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Gwarn said..
Maybe one of the resident Pros can you give me a little input on my harness lines.

How do they look?

They look DaKine to me! Seriously I've heard people arguing over this forever to each his own.Can't teach old dog new tricks.

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t36 said..
With the Freeride technique in Windfoiling - you stand upright and harness lines are short.

with the race technique in windfoiling - you place your weight out of the board and completely in the harness: so the lines are long, and getting longer (I use 28-34). And with short lines - you cannot bring your weight wide enough outside the board, tilt the board, control the mast base and so on.

If I look on this little image of Sandman1221 (bytheway, your reply to grantmac is disgusting!) or what I read my LeeD - you both are doing freeride-windfoiling - so your short harness lines are perfect (for you) but not for any 91 foilracer.

t36 why would I want long harness lines when I am freeride foiling?? And the picture of me is when I am foiling downwind coming into shore! As for my reply to Grantmac, that is none of your business, but by making it your business you are telling me you have a very boring life!

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Sandman1221 said..

swoosh said..
Im very average height 5'10, I run 30in lines with a waist harness. I can't imagine how you are running 24" lines with a seat harness ??

Maybe something else wrong with the balance in your setup if you are finding you are getting sore arms from needing to muscle your sail with longer lines. I wouldn't think that line length should make any difference to forearm soreness, but has been a long time since I've run short lines.

well my fore arms get sore because I am holding the sail with my arms so much of the time while in flight in gusty conditions, because the hook is not holding enough of the sail pressure with long lines

I had that problem when I fist got started. The solution was not line length, but distance from my front foot to sail mast base. Once those got closer together, no more fore arm load, everything balanced and way more fun. Haven't measure mine, but on the shorter side. Have my tuning such that most all the load goes through the harness line to waist. Arms used for sail trim and pivot hips below waist harness for board flight control. Boom height is about nipple high. I get a lot more time without getting tired if everything is balanced. Just took me a while to get there.

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Grantmac said..
DLee has a different issue, he gained a degree of competency in an era where the equipment was different and is too old to adjust to a more modern and efficient style. Fortunately he lives in the windiest major city in North America, efficiency doesn't really matter.

Dlee has much more than a degree of competency and if I sail half as well and half as much as he does when I hit his age I will consider myself lucky.

Longer harness lines allows you to get your CoG further outboard which means more righting moment. More righting moment means that you can better convert gusts of wind into an increase in forward velocity. With less righting moment, gusts are more likely to pull you off balance, which you compensate for by having to sheet out or constantly wrestling your sail for control.

With longer lines your harness lines hang more vertical, which means that a gust needs to lift your whole body weight. Whereas with shorter lines your harness lines are more horizontal which means you are easier to unbalance.

Lastly, longer lines give you more space to the sail. So you don't have to unhook in gusts to make space to sheet our your sail.

Longer harness lines simply mean you can more efficiently use the all the wind power available to you. Righting moment is simply one of those things in sailing that regardless of any other factor that, you can never have enough of.

This is less critical if you are typically riding underpowered on big foils and small sails, and more critical if you are full race mode.

So to reference back to your original post. If you learn the stance/technique to sail with longer lines, you shouldnt have to work as hard controlling your sail in gusts or sheet our or need to do the thing where you have to preemptively unhook to give yourself space to arm wrestle with the sail. Just hook and get your weight into the harness and squeeze that accelerator when that gust hits.

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LeeD said..
Wide boards need longer lines, just like windsurfing.
Formula needs 30"
But narrow boards and inboard straps don't.
One size does not fit all.

I ride longer on my freeride kit than racing, but in terms of racing I have a relatively conservative stance (very little bend at the hips). Good for lightwind, not as efficient in high winds as a good bend at the hips.

However, I use longer lines (34") on my 69cm wide foilboard. I like / need the freedom and time to correct when its weather for the 3.0. Its not about hiking out further, its about distancing myself from my sail to kind of detach the two (my sail and I) in terms of the influence on the balance of the board.

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swoosh said..
Longer harness lines allows you to get your CoG further outboard which means more righting moment. More righting moment means that you can better convert gusts of wind into an increase in forward velocity. With less righting moment, gusts are more likely to pull you off balance, which you compensate for by having to sheet out or constantly wrestling your sail for control.

With longer lines your harness lines hang more vertical, which means that a gust needs to lift your whole body weight. Whereas with shorter lines your harness lines are more horizontal which means you are easier to unbalance.

Lastly, longer lines give you more space to the sail. So you don't have to unhook in gusts to make space to sheet our your sail.

Longer harness lines simply mean you can more efficiently use the all the wind power available to you. Righting moment is simply one of those things in sailing that regardless of any other factor that, you can never have enough of.

This is less critical if you are typically riding underpowered on big foils and small sails, and more critical if you are full race mode.

So to reference back to your original post. If you learn the stance/technique to sail with longer lines, you shouldnt have to work as hard controlling your sail in gusts or sheet our or need to do the thing where you have to preemptively unhook to give yourself space to arm wrestle with the sail. Just hook and get your weight into the harness and squeeze that accelerator when that gust hits.

swoosh, you and several others are not understanding the physics of harness lines! Harness lines connect your body to the boom, and you then balance your body weight against the pressure on the sail using the harness lines. 6 factors affect the length of lines and so balance point (i.e. how far you can lean out): 1) wind speed and pressure on sail, 2) sail size and type, 3) width of board at front foot AND rear foot, 4) how far your feet are from the center line of the board and the mast base, 5) body weight, 6) type of foil and wing/stabilizer and drag through water.

You can not just say, "if you have proper technique you can use long harness lines!", it depends on the above 6 factors. So for me here are the values for the 6 factors: 8-10 knot wind, 8.0 non cambered sail, 75 cm wide board at front foot and 43 cm at rear foot, with front foot heal on the rail and rear foot arch on the rail, 86 kg, and an AFS W95 foil with F1080 cm2 wing and V1 320 cm2 stabilizer. With those 6 factors I am balanced with the sail using 23.5" harness lines, and you can not change that! The pressure on the sail can only support so much weight, longer lines will increase the leverage on the sail effectively increasing my body weight and so allow me to pull the sail windward so I fall into the water, have done that experiment.

Now when I say balanced with the sail, I mean 100% of my body weight is supported by the sail through the harness lines so my arms do not carry any sail pressure.

That is the physics for my 6 factors, and I can not change the balance point with different length lines using those 6 factors, I have tried many times.

Of course if I use a bigger sail and wider board with both of my feet farther away from the board center line, or a foil that generates more drag with the water, then yes I can use longer lines! Or if I lost 10 kgs of body weight, I could use longer lines too!

Now for windsurfing I used 32" harness lines, how is that possible?, because I used a 9.0 sail in a minimum of 12 knots, that meant there was a lot more wind pressure on the sail, and for my body weight I needed to be father away from the sail to effectively increase my weight to offset the greater pressure on the sail, and 32" lines did just that. With shorter lines my effective body weight would be too little and the sail would pull me downwind onto the sail and water.

Select to expand quote

Sandman1221 said..

swoosh said..
Longer harness lines allows you to get your CoG further outboard which means more righting moment. More righting moment means that you can better convert gusts of wind into an increase in forward velocity. With less righting moment, gusts are more likely to pull you off balance, which you compensate for by having to sheet out or constantly wrestling your sail for control.

With longer lines your harness lines hang more vertical, which means that a gust needs to lift your whole body weight. Whereas with shorter lines your harness lines are more horizontal which means you are easier to unbalance.

Lastly, longer lines give you more space to the sail. So you don't have to unhook in gusts to make space to sheet our your sail.

Longer harness lines simply mean you can more efficiently use the all the wind power available to you. Righting moment is simply one of those things in sailing that regardless of any other factor that, you can never have enough of.

This is less critical if you are typically riding underpowered on big foils and small sails, and more critical if you are full race mode.

So to reference back to your original post. If you learn the stance/technique to sail with longer lines, you shouldnt have to work as hard controlling your sail in gusts or sheet our or need to do the thing where you have to preemptively unhook to give yourself space to arm wrestle with the sail. Just hook and get your weight into the harness and squeeze that accelerator when that gust hits.

swoosh, you and several others are not understanding the physics of harness lines! Harness lines connect your body to the boom, and you then balance your body weight against the pressure on the sail using the harness lines. 6 factors affect the length of lines and so balance point (i.e. how far you can lean out): 1) wind speed and pressure on sail, 2) sail size and type, 3) width of board at front foot AND rear foot, 4) how far your feet are from the center line of the board and the mast base, 5) body weight, 6) type of foil and wing/stabilizer and drag through water.

You can not just say, "if you have proper technique you can use long harness lines!", it depends on the above 6 factors. So for me here are the values for the 6 factors: 8-10 knot wind, 8.0 non cambered sail, 75 cm wide board at front foot and 43 cm at rear foot, with front foot heal on the rail and rear foot arch on the rail, 86 kg, and an AFS W95 foil with F1080 cm2 wing and V1 320 cm2 stabilizer. With those 6 factors I am balanced with the sail using 23.5" harness lines, and you can not change that! The pressure on the sail can only support so much weight, longer lines will increase the leverage on the sail effectively increasing my body weight and so allow me to pull the sail windward so I fall into the water, have done that experiment.

Now when I say balanced with the sail, I mean 100% of my body weight is supported by the sail through the harness lines so my arms do not carry any sail pressure.

That is the physics for my 6 factors, and I can not change the balance point with different length lines using those 6 factors, I have tried many times.

Of course if I use a bigger sail and wider board with both of my feet farther away from the board center line, or a foil that generates more drag with the water, then yes I can use longer lines! Or if I lost 10 kgs of body weight, I could use longer lines too!

Now for windsurfing I used 32" harness lines, how is that possible?, because I used a 9.0 sail in a minimum of 12 knots, that meant there was a lot more wind pressure on the sail, and for my body weight I needed to be father away from the sail to effectively increase my weight to offset the greater pressure on the sail, and 32" lines did just that. With shorter lines my effective body weight would be too little and the sail would pull me downwind onto the sail and water.

I would ride a 5.5 or so maximum on a board that narrow in the tail. One reason you cant use longer harnesslines might be because your kit is awfully out of balance. Such a big sail on such a tiny board puts you very close to the sail geometrically, but also very much limits the possibility for you to hike out, hence the short lines. In 8-10 knots with an 8.0 theres plenty of power for my weight (96kgs) to weight the harnesslines with a similar foil, although granted, I would always ride a larger board with such a sail. 8.0 is pretty much the upper limit for me on my JP135, which is 76cm wide in the tail..

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Sandman1221 said..
Paducah you are giving extreme examples to support using long lines!, I mean to go that fast you need to be borderline over powered in really high winds. That is not the average conditions I sail in!

If I'm sailing in 8 with a 7.0 or 8.0, I'm still using 27-28 lines with a waist harness and I'm close to 15cm shorter than you and proportionally shorter arms (think penguin). I spend a lot of time in light air.

What works for you works for you but I think a lot of us understand both the physics of it and the reasons why longer lines work very well for most experienced foilers. That you use both a sail and board not primarily designed for foiling may somewhat be the reason behind your choices. I'm not saying you need to change your gear but your preferences reflect as much your own gear and style rather than what works for the broad population over a broader range of conditions. It's sufficient to say it works for you rather than suggest to some pretty skilled foilers that I look up to that they don't get it.

Gwarns formula=
56 cm short lines + short chubby boards + short chubby rider =Keeping it easy chubb style.

I cheat by using a harness with the bar that slides and I run it pretty loose so it gives me anywhere from zero to 5 inches of adjustments.

Well, then about 3/4 of the dudes on here will categorically say you have bad technique; slow, and will never improve.
Me, since I use lines 2" longer, have more potential and better technique..

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WhiteofHeart said..

Sandman1221 said..

swoosh said..
Longer harness lines allows you to get your CoG further outboard which means more righting moment. More righting moment means that you can better convert gusts of wind into an increase in forward velocity. With less righting moment, gusts are more likely to pull you off balance, which you compensate for by having to sheet out or constantly wrestling your sail for control.

With longer lines your harness lines hang more vertical, which means that a gust needs to lift your whole body weight. Whereas with shorter lines your harness lines are more horizontal which means you are easier to unbalance.

Lastly, longer lines give you more space to the sail. So you don't have to unhook in gusts to make space to sheet our your sail.

Longer harness lines simply mean you can more efficiently use the all the wind power available to you. Righting moment is simply one of those things in sailing that regardless of any other factor that, you can never have enough of.

This is less critical if you are typically riding underpowered on big foils and small sails, and more critical if you are full race mode.

So to reference back to your original post. If you learn the stance/technique to sail with longer lines, you shouldnt have to work as hard controlling your sail in gusts or sheet our or need to do the thing where you have to preemptively unhook to give yourself space to arm wrestle with the sail. Just hook and get your weight into the harness and squeeze that accelerator when that gust hits.

swoosh, you and several others are not understanding the physics of harness lines! Harness lines connect your body to the boom, and you then balance your body weight against the pressure on the sail using the harness lines. 6 factors affect the length of lines and so balance point (i.e. how far you can lean out): 1) wind speed and pressure on sail, 2) sail size and type, 3) width of board at front foot AND rear foot, 4) how far your feet are from the center line of the board and the mast base, 5) body weight, 6) type of foil and wing/stabilizer and drag through water.

You can not just say, "if you have proper technique you can use long harness lines!", it depends on the above 6 factors. So for me here are the values for the 6 factors: 8-10 knot wind, 8.0 non cambered sail, 75 cm wide board at front foot and 43 cm at rear foot, with front foot heal on the rail and rear foot arch on the rail, 86 kg, and an AFS W95 foil with F1080 cm2 wing and V1 320 cm2 stabilizer. With those 6 factors I am balanced with the sail using 23.5" harness lines, and you can not change that! The pressure on the sail can only support so much weight, longer lines will increase the leverage on the sail effectively increasing my body weight and so allow me to pull the sail windward so I fall into the water, have done that experiment.

Now when I say balanced with the sail, I mean 100% of my body weight is supported by the sail through the harness lines so my arms do not carry any sail pressure.

That is the physics for my 6 factors, and I can not change the balance point with different length lines using those 6 factors, I have tried many times.

Of course if I use a bigger sail and wider board with both of my feet farther away from the board center line, or a foil that generates more drag with the water, then yes I can use longer lines! Or if I lost 10 kgs of body weight, I could use longer lines too!

Now for windsurfing I used 32" harness lines, how is that possible?, because I used a 9.0 sail in a minimum of 12 knots, that meant there was a lot more wind pressure on the sail, and for my body weight I needed to be father away from the sail to effectively increase my weight to offset the greater pressure on the sail, and 32" lines did just that. With shorter lines my effective body weight would be too little and the sail would pull me downwind onto the sail and water.

I would ride a 5.5 or so maximum on a board that narrow in the tail. One reason you cant use longer harnesslines might be because your kit is awfully out of balance. Such a big sail on such a tiny board puts you very close to the sail geometrically, but also very much limits the possibility for you to hike out, hence the short lines. In 8-10 knots with an 8.0 theres plenty of power for my weight (96kgs) to weight the harnesslines with a similar foil, although granted, I would always ride a larger board with such a sail. 8.0 is pretty much the upper limit for me on my JP135, which is 76cm wide in the tail..

WoH, good point, but that is my only board right now. The JP135 with 76 cm tail is a lot wider!

Select to expand quote

Paducah said..

Sandman1221 said..
Paducah you are giving extreme examples to support using long lines!, I mean to go that fast you need to be borderline over powered in really high winds. That is not the average conditions I sail in!

If I'm sailing in 8 with a 7.0 or 8.0, I'm still using 27-28 lines with a waist harness and I'm close to 15cm shorter than you and proportionally shorter arms (think penguin). I spend a lot of time in light air.

What works for you works for you but I think a lot of us understand both the physics of it and the reasons why longer lines work very well for most experienced foilers. That you use both a sail and board not primarily designed for foiling may somewhat be the reason behind your choices. I'm not saying you need to change your gear but your preferences reflect as much your own gear and style rather than what works for the broad population over a broader range of conditions. It's sufficient to say it works for you rather than suggest to some pretty skilled foilers that I look up to that they don't get it.

Paducah, well I said what board and sail I am using, maybe the experienced foilers you look up to missed that? I am just stating what works for my equipment. Realize a foil board would allow me to hike out more, but there are other advantages to a slalom style foil board, and that is why I have stuck with it so far.

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LeeD said..
Well, then about 3/4 of the dudes on here will categorically say you have bad technique; slow, and will never improve.
Me, since I use lines 2" longer, have more potential and better technique..

, thanks LeeD!, I needed that laugh!

So to everyone, especially the experienced foilers, I am not saying you all should be using 23.5" lines! Just saying that is what works for me and my somewhat Frankenstein kit!

I can harken back to the OLD days of windsurfing.....
Plenty of guys my size showed me their lines lengths..4-8" longer, for whatever reason.
On the water, we were around the same speed and similar wind range.
Then in mid '90's, this instructor popped up, Jason Voss, who touted even SHORTER lines.
Guess what?
It all works, just fine.
Jason still uses short lines.

Windsurfing I progressed to shorter and shorter lines until I found my comfort length. Not sure if the most "efficient" length. Into comfort and control. Windsurf foiling I'm running a 5cm longer at the shortest length. Using on the fly adjustable with ~15cm of range. Initially thinking was adjustable to figure out what I prefer. Turns out I prefer to adjust the length based on going up or downwind, overpowered, underpowered.....

Windfoil, I hook in only for upwind and lightly powered reaching.
Powered reaching for me is scary, so I unhook.
Downwind, mostly unhooked as there is very little pull, and I'm mostly zigzagging and needing to sheet in at initiation of turns and sheeting out at recovery.