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damned67 said..

Macaha said..
It is what it is, if you are short on dollars, just starting out or want a board family and friends can have a bash on well may be they are the go and they do make some nice shapes, however nothing is better than going to your shaper talking crap, asking about board designs and the smell of resin oh the smell. Not much froth or soul in SBW but a lot in your local board makers factory.

Macaha,
Have you read Tom Wegener's book/PhD thesis 'Surf board artisans: for the love'?
if not, you should.

Cheers mate I'll enjoy a good read.

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Buster fin said..
Yet some fail us with their honeyed tongues and substandard product.

To be honest Buster I haven't had that experience pretty much had great boards all my life from WA / east coast based crew including Katana but have lost count the hours of great conversations I have had with shapers over the years, conversations like no other that I have with friends family etc........including you too Dave

Select to expand quote

IFocus said..

Buster fin said..
Yet some fail us with their honeyed tongues and substandard product.

To be honest Buster I haven't had that experience pretty much had great boards all my life from WA / east coast based crew including Katana but have lost count the hours of great conversations I have had with shapers over the years, conversations like no other that I have with friends family etc........including you too Dave

thanks mate always got time to talk surf infact that's all for a while after I blew my ACL a few weeks back on an epic offshore session ,
hope to be back before winter !!!

I'm not going to talk about surfboards...
What I will say is, Surfboard Warehouse run a smart business model, which is extremely disruptive to the status quo..
Ultimately, the consumer gets better value for money..
Locally made boards help set a bench mark price..
So crew can bring in imports and actually make money with business models which actually are not that streamlined..

Take a few different business models and the steps involved..
Starboard for example..
1.. Cobra the manufacture sell to Starboard, the brand...
2.. Starboard the brand sells to a regional or country distributor...
3.. Distributor employs a sales rep...
4.. Sales rep visits retailers...
5.. Then depending on the model and brand , quite often an athlete or designer is getting a kick back/royalty...
6..Retailers sell to final customer..

So when a consumer hands his money over , 6 different people are getting a piece of the pie..
The reality is , a board that leaves the factory for $250 can sell for $1,000 or more...
That's all actually ok, as it still leaves local manufacturers the ability to compete when selling direct...

Surfboard Warehouse...
1.. Chinese Manufacturer sells containers to Surfboard Warehouse...
2.. Surfboard Warehouse sells to customer...

4 pieces of the pie can now be redistributed...
So the same $250 dollar board can sell for $500 or less...
Surfboard Warehouse wins, Consumer wins...
Everyone else in the industry hates them...

This is the new reality...

Where I currently sit, with my own Factory and Brand in Thailand.. I could easily run the same business model..
The reason I haven't.... I don't want to be a **** and disrupt the lives of crew I respect and have grown up working with...
I would much rather support them by building their boards and selling to their shops..

Interesting days, as I also know, another exact same business model is opening up in Osbourne Park called Surfland...

Select to expand quote

BertBurger said..
I'm not going to talk about surfboards...
What I will say is, Surfboard Warehouse run a smart business model, which is extremely disruptive to the status quo..
Ultimately, the consumer gets better value for money..
Locally made boards help set a bench mark price..
So crew can bring in imports and actually make money with business models which actually are not that streamlined..

Take a few different business models and the steps involved..
Starboard for example..
1.. Cobra the manufacture sell to Starboard, the brand...
2.. Starboard the brand sells to a regional or country distributor...
3.. Distributor employs a sales rep...
4.. Sales rep visits retailers...
5.. Then depending on the model and brand , quite often an athlete or designer is getting a kick back/royalty...
6..Retailers sell to final customer..

So when a consumer hands his money over , 6 different people are getting a piece of the pie..
The reality is , a board that leaves the factory for $250 can sell for $1,000 or more...
That's all actually ok, as it still leaves local manufacturers the ability to compete when selling direct...

Surfboard Warehouse...
1.. Chinese Manufacturer sells containers to Surfboard Warehouse...
2.. Surfboard Warehouse sells to customer...

4 pieces of the pie can now be redistributed...
So the same $250 dollar board can sell for $500 or less...
Surfboard Warehouse wins, Consumer wins...
Everyone else in the industry hates them...

This is the new reality...

Where I currently sit, with my own Factory and Brand in Thailand.. I could easily run the same business model..
The reason I haven't.... I don't want to be a **** and disrupt the lives of crew I respect and have grown up working with...
I would much rather support them by building their boards and selling to their shops..

Interesting days, as I also know, another exact same business model is opening up in Osbourne Park called Surfland...

Thank you for your input and overview, as a guy who obviously had a lot to do with technology advancements and pushing surfboard design it's clear you have understanding of the Australian shapers and also the market.
Do you think Simon Anderson should get $1 for every thruster produced?
Do you think you should get $1 for every sandwich board made?
(I do)
I remember when city beach Brought out new boards for 350/400 it clearly had an effect on market and they were a cheaper nastier board...

Do you see any separation in quality in regards to surfboard warehouse vs FireWire?

I've seen a dozen top spec top shaper boards mass produced with clear printed insert carbon wrap made to look like carbon, some of the stuff being pushed to market by large manufacturers is highly insulting , than their is an argument that Chinese made boards "have no soul"

PS : Over my life I have owned three Sunova boards and some of your earlier ones as well , additionally I think your contribution to surfing and industry in west oz surfing s and henomenal, I'd just like your perspective on some of the above, however diplomatically or undiplomatically you may care to respond

Hey Raz... Should Simon or others get $1 from every board.. I don't think so. It's fair to say multiple people are responsible for getting surfboards where they are today.. Some like Simon got good mainstream media coverage.. Others, crew who developed design software, shaping machines, resin formulas, invented foams, fabrics, sandwich foams, fin systems, processes, business models, marketing, design breakthroughs, seriously the list goes on and we build on the collective knowledge of those who came before us.. For those who were lucky enough to get credit for their work, I think the reward comes in the form of recognition and the ability to get paid more for your current work...
Brewer can get $5,000 dollars for a Balsa gun, anyone else is lucky to get $2,000....

City Beach.. Originally these boards were made in Australia by Dale Chapman.. At the time most Australian made boards wholesaled for high $400's to low $500's and at best a shop made 20% GP ( Gross Profit) So your average retail price was around 580 to $650... Dale, with the promise of high volumes, was wholesaling to City Beach for $400, they then retailed the boards at $399.... The concept was called a Loss Leader... With surfboards having the lowest profit margin of any product sold in a surf shop. The idea was to create surfers by offering them a surfboard 30% cheaper than any other possibility... But most other surf products have between 100% and 200% mark up for a retailer.. Once a guy owns a board , he is gonna need a Wetsuit, boardshorts, a rashie, wax, leg rope, deck grip, a beach towel, sunnies, sunburn cream, surf racks for car or bike, some surf related clothing and maybe even some surf vids or magazines, if he's really cool, a skateboard... Entry level surfers shop on the price of that new board.. the shop loses 1 dollar selling the board but doubles or triples their money on the add on's ....
Once imported board's were more accessible at the time for low $200's, City Beach thought they could make money on surfboards as well. Dropped Dale overnight. But it came at a time where China made boards were still in their infancy and quality just didn't exist yet.. City Beach dropped another 100 down to 299... The whole exercise was just another nail in the coffin for Australian manufacturers and retailers who specialized in surf hard ware, the net result being a loss of quality advice and knowledge to beginners...

A separation in quality between Surfboard Warehouse and FireWire? To be honest mate.. the line has blurred... I travel the globe yearly, so I'm walking into shops in USA, Japan, Europe and Australia.. Even in my own factory I can spot a **** up from 100 meters away.. I can even hear **** ups being made when a sanding machine is operating at the wrong pitch, or when a squeegee running over fiber has the wrong tone... I think regardless of where a surfboard is made, the quality of the final product comes down to the standards of management.. My observation of finished product in retail outlets... Thunderbolt made in China, ****ing amazing, never found a glitch in one, you pay a premium price for a premium product.. FireWire I see at least 1 in 5 with what I would call sub standard work, burn throughs, exposed weave, soft spots, exposed timber, shapes are good, finishing could be better, but I also see European, USA and Oz made boards with about the same ratio of sub standard work... So I don't believe at this point in time there is a massive difference in quality between Asian made or western made boards.. in fact Overall I think the standard in Asia is higher for mass produced boards.. The best standards overall that I see are coming from craft/backyard small operators that have done their time..

Carbon, timber or other exotic materials or fabrics are both expensive and difficult to work with.. I have even seen paper printed to look like timber and then passed off as timber,, Your right, it's insulting, it shows a level of greed and deception... But it's not the fault of any manufacturer, These days, Asian manufacturers and Western brands operate as separate entities, Western Brands will have a product development manager who works with manufacturers to create products, it means that western brands will sign off on the bill of materials, the process and the spec sheets prior to mass production... Brands know exactly what their getting...

Chinese boards have no soul??? Where does soul actually come from???
The designer??
The Materials???
The sponsored riders???
The manufacturing staff???
The production manager???
The Marketing team??
Could it possibly come from a retailers perception???
Is soul a reflection of the quality??
Is Soul based on the location of the factory?? If a board comes out of an Asian factory, is built by craftsmen with 20 plus years experience, the highest quality materials, designed by one of the masters, with a QC manager who knows his **** and surfed by CT surfers, does it have more or less Soul than a board built in Oz by kids fresh out of school, cheap materials and a production manager and QC guy with no idea, ridden by entry level
surfers??? How does everyone answer??

Thanks Raz.. 37 years in this industry... Diplomacy has never been my strong point... So I hope my opinion doesn't piss too many people off...




...

Select to expand quote

BertBurger said..
Hey Raz... Should Simon or others get $1 from every board.. I don't think so. It's fair to say multiple people are responsible for getting surfboards where they are today.. Some like Simon got good mainstream media coverage.. Others, crew who developed design software, shaping machines, resin formulas, invented foams, fabrics, sandwich foams, fin systems, processes, business models, marketing, design breakthroughs, seriously the list goes on and we build on the collective knowledge of those who came before us.. For those who were lucky enough to get credit for their work, I think the reward comes in the form of recognition and the ability to get paid more for your current work...
Brewer can get $5,000 dollars for a Balsa gun, anyone else is lucky to get $2,000....

City Beach.. Originally these boards were made in Australia by Dale Chapman.. At the time most Australian made boards wholesaled for high $400's to low $500's and at best a shop made 20% GP ( Gross Profit) So your average retail price was around 580 to $650... Dale, with the promise of high volumes, was wholesaling to City Beach for $400, they then retailed the boards at $399.... The concept was called a Loss Leader... With surfboards having the lowest profit margin of any product sold in a surf shop. The idea was to create surfers by offering them a surfboard 30% cheaper than any other possibility... But most other surf products have between 100% and 200% mark up for a retailer.. Once a guy owns a board , he is gonna need a Wetsuit, boardshorts, a rashie, wax, leg rope, deck grip, a beach towel, sunnies, sunburn cream, surf racks for car or bike, some surf related clothing and maybe even some surf vids or magazines, if he's really cool, a skateboard... Entry level surfers shop on the price of that new board.. the shop loses 1 dollar selling the board but doubles or triples their money on the add on's ....
Once imported board's were more accessible at the time for low $200's, City Beach thought they could make money on surfboards as well. Dropped Dale overnight. But it came at a time where China made boards were still in their infancy and quality just didn't exist yet.. City Beach dropped another 100 down to 299... The whole exercise was just another nail in the coffin for Australian manufacturers and retailers who specialized in surf hard ware, the net result being a loss of quality advice and knowledge to beginners...

A separation in quality between Surfboard Warehouse and FireWire? To be honest mate.. the line has blurred... I travel the globe yearly, so I'm walking into shops in USA, Japan, Europe and Australia.. Even in my own factory I can spot a **** up from 100 meters away.. I can even hear **** ups being made when a sanding machine is operating at the wrong pitch, or when a squeegee running over fiber has the wrong tone... I think regardless of where a surfboard is made, the quality of the final product comes down to the standards of management.. My observation of finished product in retail outlets... Thunderbolt made in China, ****ing amazing, never found a glitch in one, you pay a premium price for a premium product.. FireWire I see at least 1 in 5 with what I would call sub standard work, burn throughs, exposed weave, soft spots, exposed timber, shapes are good, finishing could be better, but I also see European, USA and Oz made boards with about the same ratio of sub standard work... So I don't believe at this point in time there is a massive difference in quality between Asian made or western made boards.. in fact Overall I think the standard in Asia is higher for mass produced boards.. The best standards overall that I see are coming from craft/backyard small operators that have done their time..

Carbon, timber or other exotic materials or fabrics are both expensive and difficult to work with.. I have even seen paper printed to look like timber and then passed off as timber,, Your right, it's insulting, it shows a level of greed and deception... But it's not the fault of any manufacturer, These days, Asian manufacturers and Western brands operate as separate entities, Western Brands will have a product development manager who works with manufacturers to create products, it means that western brands will sign off on the bill of materials, the process and the spec sheets prior to mass production... Brands know exactly what their getting...

Chinese boards have no soul??? Where does soul actually come from???
The designer??
The Materials???
The sponsored riders???
The manufacturing staff???
The production manager???
The Marketing team??
Could it possibly come from a retailers perception???
Is soul a reflection of the quality??
Is Soul based on the location of the factory?? If a board comes out of an Asian factory, is built by craftsmen with 20 plus years experience, the highest quality materials, designed by one of the masters, with a QC manager who knows his **** and surfed by CT surfers, does it have more or less Soul than a board built in Oz by kids fresh out of school, cheap materials and a production manager and QC guy with no idea, ridden by entry level
surfers??? How does everyone answer??

Thanks Raz.. 37 years in this industry... Diplomacy has never been my strong point... So I hope my opinion doesn't piss too many people off...




...

Awesome write up, very interesting!!
You should do a weekly article. For real.

Select to expand quote

BertBurger said..
Hey Raz... Should Simon or others get $1 from every board.. I don't think so. It's fair to say multiple people are responsible for getting surfboards where they are today.. Some like Simon got good mainstream media coverage.. Others, crew who developed design software, shaping machines, resin formulas, invented foams, fabrics, sandwich foams, fin systems, processes, business models, marketing, design breakthroughs, seriously the list goes on and we build on the collective knowledge of those who came before us.. For those who were lucky enough to get credit for their work, I think the reward comes in the form of recognition and the ability to get paid more for your current work...
Brewer can get $5,000 dollars for a Balsa gun, anyone else is lucky to get $2,000....

City Beach.. Originally these boards were made in Australia by Dale Chapman.. At the time most Australian made boards wholesaled for high $400's to low $500's and at best a shop made 20% GP ( Gross Profit) So your average retail price was around 580 to $650... Dale, with the promise of high volumes, was wholesaling to City Beach for $400, they then retailed the boards at $399.... The concept was called a Loss Leader... With surfboards having the lowest profit margin of any product sold in a surf shop. The idea was to create surfers by offering them a surfboard 30% cheaper than any other possibility... But most other surf products have between 100% and 200% mark up for a retailer.. Once a guy owns a board , he is gonna need a Wetsuit, boardshorts, a rashie, wax, leg rope, deck grip, a beach towel, sunnies, sunburn cream, surf racks for car or bike, some surf related clothing and maybe even some surf vids or magazines, if he's really cool, a skateboard... Entry level surfers shop on the price of that new board.. the shop loses 1 dollar selling the board but doubles or triples their money on the add on's ....
Once imported board's were more accessible at the time for low $200's, City Beach thought they could make money on surfboards as well. Dropped Dale overnight. But it came at a time where China made boards were still in their infancy and quality just didn't exist yet.. City Beach dropped another 100 down to 299... The whole exercise was just another nail in the coffin for Australian manufacturers and retailers who specialized in surf hard ware, the net result being a loss of quality advice and knowledge to beginners...

A separation in quality between Surfboard Warehouse and FireWire? To be honest mate.. the line has blurred... I travel the globe yearly, so I'm walking into shops in USA, Japan, Europe and Australia.. Even in my own factory I can spot a **** up from 100 meters away.. I can even hear **** ups being made when a sanding machine is operating at the wrong pitch, or when a squeegee running over fiber has the wrong tone... I think regardless of where a surfboard is made, the quality of the final product comes down to the standards of management.. My observation of finished product in retail outlets... Thunderbolt made in China, ****ing amazing, never found a glitch in one, you pay a premium price for a premium product.. FireWire I see at least 1 in 5 with what I would call sub standard work, burn throughs, exposed weave, soft spots, exposed timber, shapes are good, finishing could be better, but I also see European, USA and Oz made boards with about the same ratio of sub standard work... So I don't believe at this point in time there is a massive difference in quality between Asian made or western made boards.. in fact Overall I think the standard in Asia is higher for mass produced boards.. The best standards overall that I see are coming from craft/backyard small operators that have done their time..

Carbon, timber or other exotic materials or fabrics are both expensive and difficult to work with.. I have even seen paper printed to look like timber and then passed off as timber,, Your right, it's insulting, it shows a level of greed and deception... But it's not the fault of any manufacturer, These days, Asian manufacturers and Western brands operate as separate entities, Western Brands will have a product development manager who works with manufacturers to create products, it means that western brands will sign off on the bill of materials, the process and the spec sheets prior to mass production... Brands know exactly what their getting...

Chinese boards have no soul??? Where does soul actually come from???
The designer??
The Materials???
The sponsored riders???
The manufacturing staff???
The production manager???
The Marketing team??
Could it possibly come from a retailers perception???
Is soul a reflection of the quality??
Is Soul based on the location of the factory?? If a board comes out of an Asian factory, is built by craftsmen with 20 plus years experience, the highest quality materials, designed by one of the masters, with a QC manager who knows his **** and surfed by CT surfers, does it have more or less Soul than a board built in Oz by kids fresh out of school, cheap materials and a production manager and QC guy with no idea, ridden by entry level
surfers??? How does everyone answer??

Thanks Raz.. 37 years in this industry... Diplomacy has never been my strong point... So I hope my opinion doesn't piss too many people off...




...

Cheers for the response Bert,
Its epic to hear someone's viewpoint who has "skin in the game"
it certainly resonates with myself.
From my viewpoint nothing replaces standing in a shaping bay with foam on the floor and breathing in the smell of fibreglass curing and talking shop, in saying that sometimes I don't want to be made to feel guilty either when I pick up a cheap board knowing full well it's life may only exist for two weeks in tubes down south somewhere before snapping, It's got to the point where I have a couple vintage or one off boards that I'm too scared to ride knowing they can never be replaced.
These get saved for the every couple of years trips to the right wave, if they snap or get creased in their spiritual home it's not upsetting when you send them to Valhalla.
If I take out a $1500 custom or vintage board down south at a slapping beachy or reef, I don't care how well they go in the barrel because I spend half my surf avoiding putting them in it ,,, consequently this is generally when I do snap or crease them it's a paradox of thought and attracts a snapped board.
When I paddle out on my $500 consumer driven marketing hyped boards I don't care if I snap them, in fact I deliberately see what sort of late drop they handle best, how deep in the tube they can go and how very a turn can I do on this mass produced easy rider. Consequently they often last longer than initial calculations,
It is likely a psychological thing but sometimes I really feel that the ocean know which boards you are trying to protect and deliberately removes them from under your feet and ensures they land directly under the lip.
Thank you for your response, whilst these are my own psychological viewpoints I don't want the ocean to hear me as it's been eying off my favourite single fin for a couple years now and is getting closer every time I surf it to taking it away.
Whilst the above is written tongue in cheek, I am also serious..... shhhhh

Select to expand quote

Razzonater said..

BertBurger said..
Hey Raz... Should Simon or others get $1 from every board.. I don't think so. It's fair to say multiple people are responsible for getting surfboards where they are today.. Some like Simon got good mainstream media coverage.. Others, crew who developed design software, shaping machines, resin formulas, invented foams, fabrics, sandwich foams, fin systems, processes, business models, marketing, design breakthroughs, seriously the list goes on and we build on the collective knowledge of those who came before us.. For those who were lucky enough to get credit for their work, I think the reward comes in the form of recognition and the ability to get paid more for your current work...
Brewer can get $5,000 dollars for a Balsa gun, anyone else is lucky to get $2,000....

City Beach.. Originally these boards were made in Australia by Dale Chapman.. At the time most Australian made boards wholesaled for high $400's to low $500's and at best a shop made 20% GP ( Gross Profit) So your average retail price was around 580 to $650... Dale, with the promise of high volumes, was wholesaling to City Beach for $400, they then retailed the boards at $399.... The concept was called a Loss Leader... With surfboards having the lowest profit margin of any product sold in a surf shop. The idea was to create surfers by offering them a surfboard 30% cheaper than any other possibility... But most other surf products have between 100% and 200% mark up for a retailer.. Once a guy owns a board , he is gonna need a Wetsuit, boardshorts, a rashie, wax, leg rope, deck grip, a beach towel, sunnies, sunburn cream, surf racks for car or bike, some surf related clothing and maybe even some surf vids or magazines, if he's really cool, a skateboard... Entry level surfers shop on the price of that new board.. the shop loses 1 dollar selling the board but doubles or triples their money on the add on's ....
Once imported board's were more accessible at the time for low $200's, City Beach thought they could make money on surfboards as well. Dropped Dale overnight. But it came at a time where China made boards were still in their infancy and quality just didn't exist yet.. City Beach dropped another 100 down to 299... The whole exercise was just another nail in the coffin for Australian manufacturers and retailers who specialized in surf hard ware, the net result being a loss of quality advice and knowledge to beginners...

A separation in quality between Surfboard Warehouse and FireWire? To be honest mate.. the line has blurred... I travel the globe yearly, so I'm walking into shops in USA, Japan, Europe and Australia.. Even in my own factory I can spot a **** up from 100 meters away.. I can even hear **** ups being made when a sanding machine is operating at the wrong pitch, or when a squeegee running over fiber has the wrong tone... I think regardless of where a surfboard is made, the quality of the final product comes down to the standards of management.. My observation of finished product in retail outlets... Thunderbolt made in China, ****ing amazing, never found a glitch in one, you pay a premium price for a premium product.. FireWire I see at least 1 in 5 with what I would call sub standard work, burn throughs, exposed weave, soft spots, exposed timber, shapes are good, finishing could be better, but I also see European, USA and Oz made boards with about the same ratio of sub standard work... So I don't believe at this point in time there is a massive difference in quality between Asian made or western made boards.. in fact Overall I think the standard in Asia is higher for mass produced boards.. The best standards overall that I see are coming from craft/backyard small operators that have done their time..

Carbon, timber or other exotic materials or fabrics are both expensive and difficult to work with.. I have even seen paper printed to look like timber and then passed off as timber,, Your right, it's insulting, it shows a level of greed and deception... But it's not the fault of any manufacturer, These days, Asian manufacturers and Western brands operate as separate entities, Western Brands will have a product development manager who works with manufacturers to create products, it means that western brands will sign off on the bill of materials, the process and the spec sheets prior to mass production... Brands know exactly what their getting...

Chinese boards have no soul??? Where does soul actually come from???
The designer??
The Materials???
The sponsored riders???
The manufacturing staff???
The production manager???
The Marketing team??
Could it possibly come from a retailers perception???
Is soul a reflection of the quality??
Is Soul based on the location of the factory?? If a board comes out of an Asian factory, is built by craftsmen with 20 plus years experience, the highest quality materials, designed by one of the masters, with a QC manager who knows his **** and surfed by CT surfers, does it have more or less Soul than a board built in Oz by kids fresh out of school, cheap materials and a production manager and QC guy with no idea, ridden by entry level
surfers??? How does everyone answer??

Thanks Raz.. 37 years in this industry... Diplomacy has never been my strong point... So I hope my opinion doesn't piss too many people off...




...

Cheers for the response Bert,
Its epic to hear someone's viewpoint who has "skin in the game"
it certainly resonates with myself.
From my viewpoint nothing replaces standing in a shaping bay with foam on the floor and breathing in the smell of fibreglass curing and talking shop, in saying that sometimes I don't want to be made to feel guilty either when I pick up a cheap board knowing full well it's life may only exist for two weeks in tubes down south somewhere before snapping, It's got to the point where I have a couple vintage or one off boards that I'm too scared to ride knowing they can never be replaced.
These get saved for the every couple of years trips to the right wave, if they snap or get creased in their spiritual home it's not upsetting when you send them to Valhalla.
If I take out a $1500 custom or vintage board down south at a slapping beachy or reef, I don't care how well they go in the barrel because I spend half my surf avoiding putting them in it ,,, consequently this is generally when I do snap or crease them it's a paradox of thought and attracts a snapped board.
When I paddle out on my $500 consumer driven marketing hyped boards I don't care if I snap them, in fact I deliberately see what sort of late drop they handle best, how deep in the tube they can go and how very a turn can I do on this mass produced easy rider. Consequently they often last longer than initial calculations,
It is likely a psychological thing but sometimes I really feel that the ocean know which boards you are trying to protect and deliberately removes them from under your feet and ensures they land directly under the lip.
Thank you for your response, whilst these are my own psychological viewpoints I don't want the ocean to hear me as it's been eying off my favourite single fin for a couple years now and is getting closer every time I surf it to taking it away.
Whilst the above is written tongue in cheek, I am also serious..... shhhhh

I feel for you. Me? The ocean is my mother...

.

Get heavier glass jobs with bigger laps. Boards can be made pretty bloody strong. I hate snapping boards.

Farking epic to have Bert's input...love listening/reading his opinions with the little personal gems of info relating to West Oz, absolute gold. I listened to a very long/interesting podcast someone posted a link to a month or 2 or 3 ago somewhere on seabreeze. Wanted to post it here but could not find it. If someone knows where it is please post it coz I reckon people would find it of great value.

I feel our West Oz culture/waves differ to other parts of Oz/TheWorld & ultimately our numbers are so small in comparison, especially in times gone by that its pretty farking special to have blokes like Bert offer their next level POV of experience

Yeh some of your opinions surprised me Bert but pretty much agree with what you said.
What I don't understand is why you wouldn't go direct wholesale to the buyer.. buyer wins and you win as you sell more boards and demand increases ... it's only the middle man that doesn't do anything anyway that ends up losing. Don't understand the need to protect people who add no value to the product apart from taking a cut of your pie

Guys, would totally love to engage on all subjects... I think sites like this have amazing value at preserving surfing culture chronologically.. But what really helps is sticking to subject matter and keeping it related to the thread... Makes it way easier to reference for future users..
So call me out on other subjects and I'm there...

Ctngoodvibes...
Im going to discuss 2 other surf markets..
USA and Japan..
If I walk into an Australian shop... A brand you pay $850 dollars for , sells for $1,200 plus for the same board in USA... But that very same board from the very same factory Sells for $2,500 equivalent AUD dollars in Japan..
There exists a hierarchy and an established way of doing things.. So I see a market like Japan and I'm like I see $$$ , but I'm more likely to get a Samurai sword to my abdomen before I ever see a dollar..

it's called the status quo...
Call it what you want...
But I don't want to be that guy who changed the status quo...
But, once again, 15 years ago As an Australian manufacturer I was verbal about changes on the horizon.. It was a moving target and I adapted, whether I liked or not, I chose my day job and wanted to see it through...
So I'm still here... Even tho most of my contemporary colleagues are either now cleaning carpets, pushing lawn mowers or mowing foam in their backyard...

I totally get your point.. like it's painfully obvious... But I don't want to be the blame guy.. I will just follow suit to survive...

Excellent write up Bert. Great to hear someone stating the facts & no BS. Much appreciated.
Yes I am a Sunova fan & always recommend them above others to anyone I chat with.
But I have been guilty like so many others to buy the cheaper due to being impatient and wanting the product sooner than later. But as usual I regretted not waiting to save the extra dollars.
Just today I emailed one of these cheap sellers regarding one of their SUPs at a cheap price but the they didn't have the size I wanted.
Then I read your post. Which makes a lot of sense. I think I can wait just a few more months to get the board I want & like my other 3 Sunova SUPs & short boards I love em.
So looking forward to my next one!
Just hate waiting.

Select to expand quote

BertBurger said..
A brand you pay $850 dollars for , sells for $1,200 plus for the same board in USA... But that very same board from the very same factory Sells for $2,500 equivalent AUD dollars in Japan..
There exists a hierarchy and an established way of doing things.. So I see a market like Japan and I'm like I see $$$ , but I'm more likely to get a Samurai sword to my abdomen before I ever see a dollar..

Hi Bert,.
I live in Japan and sense that the higher prices are due to the sport not being a main street sport but also due to the length of winter here and retailers just not being able to sell that many boards all year round so they put their prices sky high to make each sale count. Would you agree somewhat?
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Also, what did you mean exactly about "I'm more likely to get a Samurai sword to my abdomen before I ever see a dollar.. " Has there been a gentlemanly request for you to leave the J-market alone? I hope my curiosity doesn't kill me here...
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Regarding the brand 'Thundebolt', I have never owned one due to being a shortboarder but I have a lot of time and respect for Yu 'Tonbi Sumitomo after knowing him for a bit and passing on some advice when I needed it a while back. God bless that bloke. Hope he still isn't trying to learn foiling though, as he nearly sliced his face off a few years back.

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As others have said, great to see you here.

Hey guys, yea, that last post was a bit cryptic..
I was sitting at the beach, drinking a few beers after a surf, and always seem to never be as clear as I should...
Regarding the Japanese market all good, have been selling boards there since 2009 and sales in Japan have definitely picked up over the last 12 months..
My point was related to there being an established system, where all the players respect each other, so they can all stay in business..
While its an unwritten code, the industry in Japan is somewhat regulated, so those in business can get by and new business models that disrupt everybody are shunned, therefore you just would not get away with a Surfboard Warehouse style of business...
As an example. years back in Australia I wanted to purchase some pipe with a particular thread, so I could make something that allowed me to pump resin from a vertical standing drum of resin...
The guy at the plumbing supply shop says, "have you got your plumbers license?" im like, "no, I just want to get some resin out of a drum"
he wouldn't sell me the pipe, saying " how do i know your not doing some dodgy back yard job" I had to get a Plumber mate to get it for me..
It was clear the plumbing industry had some safeguards in place to protect not only those in the business but also consumers...
Anyone in Australia can go to a surfboard manufacturing supply company and get everything they need without any qualifications...
Prior to Asian made boards disrupting the market, the bain of the surfboard industry used to be the backyarder..
Many tried over the years to create some sort of guild or structure the industry in a way to protect legitimate players and consumers, but ultimately the wholesalers never came to the party and sold any quantity to anybody...
So in Australia and the USA, its a dog eat dog race to the bottom, skilled craftsmen who in any other industry would be making 3 times as much because of a lifetime of skills, needing to bust their gut to survive, because anyone can go to China and bring in containers of stuff, and anyone can make a board..

My point was also, I dont want to add to the misery of many of my friends and respected colleagues, in both surf retail and manufacturing, by setting up my business in such a way that puts them out of business... I make enough to survive and go surfing with the current structure of the industry..
That being said, if things changed and I could no longer survive, then of coarse I would have to rethink..
But I still feel there is a difference between getting by and being greedy and disruptive...

I ordered a longboard last year and sent it back straight away ...very poor quality .Sanded through to stringer in many places .The stringer was just crapy pine with knots all through it ..Shape was ok but the glass job was shockingly bad and the blanks are rubbish..They sent me another that was just as bad ..Tried to tell me the boards had been checked, but somehow could not explain they didnt notice the bare pine poking through (twice ).

So I just bought a SBWH Carbon Jet. I'm a poor man at 54 YO, have always surfed non-suitable second-hand surfboards. I earn less than most and have a family with a very sick wife and four kids so don't get to hit the waves more than twice a month.

This is my first ever new surfboard purchase in 40 years of surfing, I could just never justify spending a custom shaped board price spend on myself when I was penny-pinching everywhere else.

Beyond the big issues of killing off local shapers etc. I believe that these business models serve the industry as much as they disrupt it. I mean seriously show me the handful of local shapers who could have kept up with production making customs for everyone that surfs? The logistics just do not work out. As surfing has become more mainstream demand has skyrocketed, all the backyard shapers that cry foul could not have kept up and would be crying foul on other fronts.

My purchase was a personal choice based on financial constraints, I did not want to fork out hard-earned cash to twice what I paid for a local shaper to fashion a design that at the end of the day I might not like. So I chose to purchase something close to my wish list for a lot cheaper, if it does what I hope then I'll be wrapped, if not then I will on-sell it and loose about $150, not $500 for a used custom.

And at the end of the day if I like what I have and the quality lets me down I'll surf it till it's almost dead and then have a local high-quality board maker replicate it and tweak it to suit me even better.

I think these boards serve a purpose for the popularity of surfing, making entry level affordable for people like me and creating a broader user base that when they have refined their skills and understanding of what they want will then engage with a custom shaper.

What I got in the Carbon Jet is a very progressive shape and fin set up combination at a very affordable price. The quality from having tried my hand at shaping and glassing in the past seems very good. Mine is a PU blank with polyester resin with a semi matt sanded finish, so not polished, but the glassing layup looks and feels excellent. Only concern is that it may be a bit too hard and could end up with shatters or splits, but only time will tell on that front.

Would I recommend them to others? Absolutely, good knowledge, good service, prompt replies, local outlet so I could handle the product before committing, and a true surfboard shop, not a pair of boardies, sunnies or bikinis in sight, let alone a funky hey I'm a cool shop try hard vibe.

But each to there own, if you can afford a custom then get one, I will guarantee it will make less than 5% difference to your surfing over spending some time finding a pop out that is close to what you need. And unless you get to surf 7 days a week you are unlikely to even notice the nuances in a custom shape over the pop out.

As for killing the local shapers etc. Doubt it, anyone who is actually good at what they do and works within the limits of their ambition will always be successful. There is little to no chance that any pop out will replace a custom with a dedicated work of art shape and paint job, and there will always be those who can afford it.

Just not me.

My two bob's worth.

I think youve been smoking Hydros man

Give me a good second hand board any day of the week. I like customs but its nice to see what your getting before you pay your hard earned dollars out. Always nice to look through second hand board racks. I hope it does work for you though Its never nice to read about crew buying boards and the quality isnt there or they dont live up to the expectation.

Had a look in the Osborne park shop a few weeks ago and the quality looks good. The glassing looked better than some of the js and Dhd boards you see in surf shops.
shapes ok, but more catered to longboards and fun boards. Think you'd still go to custom shaped for a board for decent waves

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Ctngoodvibes said..
Had a look in the Osborne park shop a few weeks ago and the quality looks good. The glassing looked better than some of the js and Dhd boards you see in surf shops.
shapes ok, but more catered to longboards and fun boards. Think you'd still go to custom shaped for a board for decent waves

I have a couple for when I go to Queensland - I reckon you nailed it. East coast shapes for East coast waves. I love mine, but, for the most part, they are designed for when it's gutless.

having said that, The Fountain Of Youth is one of the best all rounders I have ever owned.

Id just like to say, personally i was surprised at the actual cost of custom boards. Maybe some are crazy priced shapers but my experience would be many are much cheaper than of the rack branded boards.

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jbshack said..
Id just like to say, personally i was surprised at the actual cost of custom boards. Maybe some are crazy priced shapers but my experience would be many are much cheaper than of the rack branded boards.

Absolutely. Lots of the "name", stock global brands aren't as well made and are more expensive than custom made for you, for the waves you surf and to do what you want it to do.

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jbshack said..
Id just like to say, personally i was surprised at the actual cost of custom boards. Maybe some are crazy priced shapers but my experience would be many are much cheaper than of the rack branded boards.

Exactly,

they can vary a bit.

but to put in prospective here's two customs I've recently purchased

Webster 7'6 desert storm gun, $900




Scotty James custom: 5'10 fish. With tint, Edge lapped, polished and custom fins $950
Same board in white standard $650









Both boards rip at what there designed for. Both made to my needs after consultation.

hard to justify $400 dollars on a China pump out when for a couple of hundred more you can get a solidly built custom for $650?!

Wow that things a work of art mate!

functional art, have a look through his FB some cracking boards.
obviously price varies depending on what you want channels etc. but really for something that sexy it ain't bad. If you add channels on a list board your up for heaps more.
ive hijacked the thread I know, but if your laying down cash for a board, good to be informed on what your options are. I'm a Gumby, but still get more than my fare share on this board and turn better than my capabilities.
the guns a weapon also.


m.facebook.com/Scotty-James-Surfboards-sjs-2130015310548193/?refid=13&__tn__=%2Cg

****ing beautiful boards mate.

Have you used the DS and if so where?

Custom shaper in secret harbour does works of art too. Glen Stone Designs. Haven't got one (yet) but they look incredible
m.facebook.com/1505809963041046/photos/a.2152046515084051/2166950053593697/?type=3&source=54

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Cetus said..
****ing beautiful boards mate.

Have you used the DS and if so where?

Yeah a few time, mostly at the beach (Catherine hill bay) When big. It's got heaps of volume Gets in easy. still holds a line and turns good. Got a few shacks of a ledge there also.
so good to have a board that takes away the excuses. so far if I've had the guts to paddle out, it hasn't said no to a wave yet.

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DunkO said..

Cetus said..
****ing beautiful boards mate.

Have you used the DS and if so where?

Yeah a few time, mostly at the beach (Catherine hill bay) When big. It's got heaps of volume Gets in easy. still holds a line and turns good. Got a few shacks of a ledge there also.
so good to have a board that takes away the excuses. so far if I've had the guts to paddle out, it hasn't said no to a wave yet.

I have a 7' DS waiting for a local fickle wave to fire and fitness to line up thought later a 7'6" might have been better nice looking stick what volume did you end up with.

BTW Webby is pretty good at sussing out what you really want and need great to deal with.