Select to expand quote

Camarillo said..

frenchfoiler said..

Speaking of Axis : I would say 1150 for beginners or intermediate (light days) or bigger riders.

Then 1050 if you master the 1150, knowing you might still need the 1150 for light days.

Then 1099 if you master the 1050, knowing that you will still need the 1050 for light days.

I would say the same for Takuma : LOL 1900, then Kujira 1440, then Kujira 1210, then Kujira 1095 or 980.

And what about the Axis 1120 ? Would that be easier to paddle up than the 1150 for a 90 kg beginner when it is very light ?

I don't know, I haven't used this wing for a long time, I would say the 1150 is better overall.

What do you think of the new trend from the Maui crew Riggs/Kalama/Tomo using super long/skinny gun type board ? Looks like it is from 7'6 to 7'10.

I asked Jeremy, he said, those boards were designed for prone dw, but everybody realized it is super eassy to get up with the paddle and it doesn't bother much flying.

www.instagram.com/p/Cb5ywxPAwgn/

Select to expand quote

frenchfoiler said..
What do you think of the new trend from the Maui crew Riggs/Kalama/Tomo using super long/skinny gun type board ? Looks like it is from 7'6 to 7'10.

I asked Jeremy, he said, those boards were designed for prone dw, but everybody realized it is super eassy to get up with the paddle and it doesn't bother much flying.

www.instagram.com/p/Cb5ywxPAwgn/

I still remember using a 7 foot board and i also remember why we went shorter. IMO boards this long just don't look right and look like they would be a bitch to pump when needed. Maybe on Maui or other places where its always super windy you can get away with it but our wind is up and down so smaller lighter boards handle the flatter sections far better. There is just so much nose and tail over hang on a board this long that it would suck if the winds got light and you had to work to stay with the bumps.

I am sure they catch the swells no worries but there is so much more to it that just catching the bump. Maybe if you have a place that has large fast moving swells then the longer board can help more as well as catching big swells is quite tricky on a under 6ft board.

I can see some fun in it on the long ones but for me would much prefer something shorter.

They do look long and are prone focused. Somewhere between the super short boards and these would suit most people with a paddle.

Like the board in this video www.instagram.com/reel/CcA34BZAojO/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Select to expand quote

frenchfoiler said..
What do you think of the new trend from the Maui crew Riggs/Kalama/Tomo using super long/skinny gun type board ? Looks like it is from 7'6 to 7'10.

I asked Jeremy, he said, those boards were designed for prone dw, but everybody realized it is super eassy to get up with the paddle and it doesn't bother much flying.

www.instagram.com/p/Cb5ywxPAwgn/

I believe this tendency is here to stay. For me, this is a good solution if there is wind a swell. I mean if you can get up easily and ride the swell with limited pumping, it looks like a good solution.
After going from 5,6 by 26 to 6,2 by 23,5, I'm now going to order a 6,9 by 21,5 I will let you know how it goes.
I only use the 6,2 by 23,5 in the waves or downwind. It just requires less energy to catch waves and helps with my poor paddling technique.

I agree with all comments above - the longer boards do compromise you a bit once in the air, no doubt about it. I tried a 7ft x 25" 115L that weighed 6.6kg - the swing weight was manageable, but not optimal - mast placement is pretty critical. Conversely it did give more glide although the rocker rails etc also play a huge role.

As with most of these things your local conditions, rider physique and skills will determine whats right for you.

But I think the off-shoot of Kalama's longer boards is that we'll see boards that will allow many more to get into downwinding as it solves a large part of the hurdle of getting on foil. Countering that, is that for the longer boards to work, once on foil, they will have to be extremely light which adds cost or durability.

Combined with the much more efficient foils now available, the longer boards are making Downwind SUP-foil so much more accessible which is pretty cool.

Dave Kalama is just pushing the limits to see what is possible, longer and narrow will be easier for prone riders to get up. How many cool surfer dudes that foil now want to downwind but gave SUP the cold shoulder for years, now they are kicking themselves as they don't have the SUP skill set. It will open up so many more possibilities for people to enjoy DW. Yeah sure the turnability is compromised by x% but the pop up is maximised by xx% (can't tell you all the secrets). For the most part crew will be on the E3 downwind boards (or versions of it) for at least the next 12-18 months before they go to these style. Still in proto phase. Check out this clip, see how effortless it releases .. on a GT2200 too: www.instagram.com/tv/CcEByVIoD5J/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Long and skinny.

Select to expand quote

baldy123 said..
Long and skinny.

If your in OZ and want one DM me

A few creations back I made a creature that looks a little like Kalamas baracuda. Main idea was to copy the prone-style board tail end and total displacement hull. Board was shaped for "in-fjord" downwind runs. 100% wind swell. So went quite short.
Was hit by a brain-disease this winter (encephalitis) so can't remember where all
my boards are. So can't see exact dimensions.
But remember it was more than stable, and I wanted to go thinner, little longer and more nose-rocker for next try on the design concept. Also- the footstrap was mainly used for take-off. Once flying, my front foot would be around 15-20cm behind strap.
Take-offs were incredible smooth. And also no problem to catch rails on steep bumbs. The ridge at the nose section was quickly shaved off as it didnt do anything good.

Hope you make a full recovery Danish, good luck.

Select to expand quote

danish said..
A few creations back I made a creature that looks a little like Kalamas baracuda. Main idea was to copy the prone-style board tail end and total displacement hull. Board was shaped for "in-fjord" downwind runs. 100% wind swell. So went quite short.
Was hit by a brain-disease this winter (encephalitis) so can't remember where all
my boards are. So can't see exact dimensions.
But remember it was more than stable, and I wanted to go thinner, little longer and more nose-rocker for next try on the design concept. Also- the footstrap was mainly used for take-off. Once flying, my front foot would be around 15-20cm behind strap.
Take-offs were incredible smooth. And also no problem to catch rails on steep bumbs. The ridge at the nose section was quickly shaved off as it didnt do anything good.

I remember that build you posted, i was veey interested in it because i thought it would be the perfect low wind wingfoil board.
Truly innovative,very much ahead of anybody else.

Hope you get better Danish!.

www.instagram.com/p/CcJ6KR8loPO/

7'8 x 18.5

Huge fan of the longer and narrower boards. At 6'2" and 90-92kg (200+lbs), DW is a mission. IT's all about the get up. These longer boards are that 5% before the camel breaks its back (my back ).

Here's my new prototype-2 DW board I've been tweaking with James from Konrad. Weighs about 6.5kg, 6'6" x 26" at 130ltrs. Super easy to paddle up. I think going forwards I might go 6'10" x 24". Really don't mid the length.












I was 99% sold on the Kalama, but just wanted more volume and more width. 23.5" is gnarly for me. I had this concept in Shape 3DX for years but never moved forwards, then I saw Dave's boards and was blown away with the similarities. My concept was a Starboard ACE raceboard on the bottom and a square deck on top for stability. No tail kick but a pin tail so you can still pump it - and it works amazing.
I've since heard DK is doing some more real world sizes which will definitely help crew get out there. The Barracuda looks like a weapon, not sure I'm ready for that narrow .

It is soo good seeing all the DW shapes coming out. Once you get used to the DW board, it is hard to go back to your other board, getting waves/swells super early is awesome and you simply can not beat the feeling of pure Downwind - The apex of Foiling for sure.

More volume and more width are on the way. All the R&D had been done by the worlds best DW foil board designer. no need to try copy.
6'1 x 26 at 115L
6'5 x 27.5 at 130L

problem solved. Get your pre orders in now and don't miss out

Longer board won't be an issue if the board is light otherwise the swing weight will be a problem.

The good thing about those design that DK is testing is to make DW easier which is great.

Now the question is for riders who can already take off with short board (around 6'0), would it be an advaantag going super long ? Maybe it would help getting up faster on smaller foil.

Maybe the something in between ? My guess is that the dw board size will be longer than what it is right now.

My new board, coming up soon is 6'0 x 21 - 89L, my current board is 5'7 x 22.5 - 90L

The longer boards and new hull shapes will definitely make DW easier.

But there is one other aspect which is not spoken about too often and that is the AOA of the foil in relation to the rocker of the board. I've found that low or negative angle of attack, whereby foil is pointing down away from the board is a paddle-up killer as it sucks board into the water before it releases. Positive AOA is also not great as you are pushing water down and around the foil before it starts generating lift. Both scenarios makes board feel like it is stuck in mud.

When you are in waves, the significant push from the wave overcomes this issue ,to a point where you rarely notice it, but when you are on the limit of the margins for getting up on flat bumps, it can make, or break your day.

My formula is to put a level on the front foil and try shim mast until it is level with bottom of board in the mast area - but I'm not sure if anyone has better ideas on how to optimise this?

Select to expand quote

PeterP said..
The longer boards and new hull shapes will definitely make DW easier.

But there is one other aspect which is not spoken about too often and that is the AOA of the foil in relation to the rocker of the board. I've found that low or negative angle of attack, whereby foil is pointing down away from the board is a paddle-up killer as it sucks board into the water before it releases. Positive AOA is also not great as you are pushing water down and around the foil before it starts generating lift. Both scenarios makes board feel like it is stuck in mud.

When you are in waves, the significant push from the wave overcomes this issue ,to a point where you rarely notice it, but when you are on the limit of the margins for getting up on flat bumps, it can make, or break your day.

My formula is to put a level on the front foil and try shim mast until it is level with bottom of board in the mast area - but I'm not sure if anyone has better ideas on how to optimise this?

You want to get the mast plate or the fuselage to be parallel with the deck of the board. The majority of foils have both mast plate and fuse parallel to each other. If you have a foil with shims or angles between mast and fuse then go for getting the fuse parallel to the board deck.
Sit your foil setup on a level surface and put packers under the tail until you get the fuse level with the ground or put a spirit level on the mast plate and get it level.
Sit your board on top of the foil ( will need a helper) put a spirit level on the deck of the board and lift it up or down until it is level. You can attach the front or rear bolts if you know which way the gap will be.Measure the gap at the rear or front of mast plate and board.That is the thickness of the wedge you need.
I remember a post where JB found it easier to start with a foil that pointed upwards, so I would lean toward that direction if unsure as having the foil point down will be a killer for sure.

Select to expand quote

frenchfoiler said..
Longer board won't be an issue if the board is light otherwise the swing weight will be a problem.

The good thing about those design that DK is testing is to make DW easier which is great.

Now the question is for riders who can already take off with short board (around 6'0), would it be an advaantag going super long ? Maybe it would help getting up faster on smaller foil.

Maybe the something in between ? My guess is that the dw board size will be longer than what it is right now.

My new board, coming up soon is 6'0 x 21 - 89L, my current board is 5'7 x 22.5 - 90L

I'm not sure, when you look at the blue board..they seems to have the wide point fwd...and a fatter nose...slimer tail. So compare to a traditional board we had...I think you can now put the foil boxe more fwd...so maybe same swing weight as before?

The boxes on that blue board are really far forward, and I am going to go further forward again (front of the tracks is about 72cm from the tail).
It is also 6'6". I personally would not go any shorter than 6'6". I am thinking actually of going longer (not Barracuda 7'8") and maybe a tad narrower, 25" or 25.5".

Shimming the base plate is really effective, but it will put you in a nose down flight once up. Whilst down it theoretically increases your AoA in relation the water surface.

Weight is a big deal for sure. I'm envisaging hollow boards and dug outs down the track, sub 5kg & 7' long board at 22-24" wide still 130 virtual ltrs. Perfect for us larger humans.

JB

Makes good sense to have boxes as far forward as possible! As long as tail doesn't do weird stuff on steep dw sections?
what about nose section on these pintail-baracuda-prone-style boards? Not much focus on that. Would a scow-nose make sense?? Thin, less volume, more surface, more stability. Just throwing the ball up

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the Naish 7footer Prone board. It's been around a couple seasons. I've been wanting to try one on a DW but they are hard to find.

Select to expand quote

danish said..
Makes good sense to have boxes as far forward as possible! As long as tail doesn't do weird stuff on steep dw sections?
what about nose section on these pintail-baracuda-prone-style boards? Not much focus on that. Would a scow-nose make sense?? Thin, less volume, more surface, more stability. Just throwing the ball up

One of my early boards (7'6 SUP) had the foil quite far forward and I could barely paddle it as it seemed the board started pivoting around the mast. Not sure if it was only because of mast placement as the early boards also had more rocker than now. Anyone else experience this phenomenon?

Select to expand quote

JB said..
The boxes on that blue board are really far forward, and I am going to go further forward again (front of the tracks is about 72cm from the tail).
It is also 6'6". I personally would not go any shorter than 6'6". I am thinking actually of going longer (not Barracuda 7'8") and maybe a tad narrower, 25" or 25.5".

Shimming the base plate is really effective, but it will put you in a nose down flight once up. Whilst down it theoretically increases your AoA in relation the water surface.

Weight is a big deal for sure. I'm envisaging hollow boards and dug outs down the track, sub 5kg & 7' long board at 22-24" wide still 130 virtual ltrs. Perfect for us larger humans.

JB

Lightening the nose to the max is something i think we will see.
I sometimes wonder if an inflatable nose section would prove an advantage.

Select to expand quote

PeterP said..

danish said..
Makes good sense to have boxes as far forward as possible! As long as tail doesn't do weird stuff on steep dw sections?
what about nose section on these pintail-baracuda-prone-style boards? Not much focus on that. Would a scow-nose make sense?? Thin, less volume, more surface, more stability. Just throwing the ball up

One of my early boards (7'6 SUP) had the foil quite far forward and I could barely paddle it as it seemed the board started pivoting around the mast. Not sure if it was only because of mast placement as the early boards also had more rocker than now. Anyone else experience this phenomenon?

No, I place my mast (leading edge) between 60 and 70 cm from the back end of the board. No issues. I have been moving the foil box forward in every new custom board, so far no regrets.
The board seems to have better stability with the mast forward.

Select to expand quote

kobo said..

PeterP said..
The longer boards and new hull shapes will definitely make DW easier.

But there is one other aspect which is not spoken about too often and that is the AOA of the foil in relation to the rocker of the board. I've found that low or negative angle of attack, whereby foil is pointing down away from the board is a paddle-up killer as it sucks board into the water before it releases. Positive AOA is also not great as you are pushing water down and around the foil before it starts generating lift. Both scenarios makes board feel like it is stuck in mud.

When you are in waves, the significant push from the wave overcomes this issue ,to a point where you rarely notice it, but when you are on the limit of the margins for getting up on flat bumps, it can make, or break your day.

My formula is to put a level on the front foil and try shim mast until it is level with bottom of board in the mast area - but I'm not sure if anyone has better ideas on how to optimise this?

You want to get the mast plate or the fuselage to be parallel with the deck of the board. The majority of foils have both mast plate and fuse parallel to each other. If you have a foil with shims or angles between mast and fuse then go for getting the fuse parallel to the board deck.
Sit your foil setup on a level surface and put packers under the tail until you get the fuse level with the ground or put a spirit level on the mast plate and get it level.
Sit your board on top of the foil ( will need a helper) put a spirit level on the deck of the board and lift it up or down until it is level. You can attach the front or rear bolts if you know which way the gap will be.Measure the gap at the rear or front of mast plate and board.That is the thickness of the wedge you need.
I remember a post where JB found it easier to start with a foil that pointed upwards, so I would lean toward that direction if unsure as having the foil point down will be a killer for sure.

Select to expand quote

kobo said..

PeterP said..
The longer boards and new hull shapes will definitely make DW easier.

But there is one other aspect which is not spoken about too often and that is the AOA of the foil in relation to the rocker of the board. I've found that low or negative angle of attack, whereby foil is pointing down away from the board is a paddle-up killer as it sucks board into the water before it releases. Positive AOA is also not great as you are pushing water down and around the foil before it starts generating lift. Both scenarios makes board feel like it is stuck in mud.

When you are in waves, the significant push from the wave overcomes this issue ,to a point where you rarely notice it, but when you are on the limit of the margins for getting up on flat bumps, it can make, or break your day.

My formula is to put a level on the front foil and try shim mast until it is level with bottom of board in the mast area - but I'm not sure if anyone has better ideas on how to optimise this?

You want to get the mast plate or the fuselage to be parallel with the deck of the board. The majority of foils have both mast plate and fuse parallel to each other. If you have a foil with shims or angles between mast and fuse then go for getting the fuse parallel to the board deck.
Sit your foil setup on a level surface and put packers under the tail until you get the fuse level with the ground or put a spirit level on the mast plate and get it level.
Sit your board on top of the foil ( will need a helper) put a spirit level on the deck of the board and lift it up or down until it is level. You can attach the front or rear bolts if you know which way the gap will be.Measure the gap at the rear or front of mast plate and board.That is the thickness of the wedge you need.
I remember a post where JB found it easier to start with a foil that pointed upwards, so I would lean toward that direction if unsure as having the foil point down will be a killer for sure.

I like this method, but what it doesnt take into account is volume/surface distribution. For your
method to work, the volume needs to be evenly spread out over the center/standing position?

Hello. A lot of Interesting info on this post. i M starting DW sup foil and I have a question about paddle , what are the good paddle brand or model , is it better a adjustable one , or a fix one size paddle.
thank you for the info.

Select to expand quote

danish said..

kobo said..

PeterP said..
The longer boards and new hull shapes will definitely make DW easier.

But there is one other aspect which is not spoken about too often and that is the AOA of the foil in relation to the rocker of the board. I've found that low or negative angle of attack, whereby foil is pointing down away from the board is a paddle-up killer as it sucks board into the water before it releases. Positive AOA is also not great as you are pushing water down and around the foil before it starts generating lift. Both scenarios makes board feel like it is stuck in mud.

When you are in waves, the significant push from the wave overcomes this issue ,to a point where you rarely notice it, but when you are on the limit of the margins for getting up on flat bumps, it can make, or break your day.

My formula is to put a level on the front foil and try shim mast until it is level with bottom of board in the mast area - but I'm not sure if anyone has better ideas on how to optimise this?

You want to get the mast plate or the fuselage to be parallel with the deck of the board. The majority of foils have both mast plate and fuse parallel to each other. If you have a foil with shims or angles between mast and fuse then go for getting the fuse parallel to the board deck.
Sit your foil setup on a level surface and put packers under the tail until you get the fuse level with the ground or put a spirit level on the mast plate and get it level.
Sit your board on top of the foil ( will need a helper) put a spirit level on the deck of the board and lift it up or down until it is level. You can attach the front or rear bolts if you know which way the gap will be.Measure the gap at the rear or front of mast plate and board.That is the thickness of the wedge you need.
I remember a post where JB found it easier to start with a foil that pointed upwards, so I would lean toward that direction if unsure as having the foil point down will be a killer for sure.

kobo said..

PeterP said..
The longer boards and new hull shapes will definitely make DW easier.

But there is one other aspect which is not spoken about too often and that is the AOA of the foil in relation to the rocker of the board. I've found that low or negative angle of attack, whereby foil is pointing down away from the board is a paddle-up killer as it sucks board into the water before it releases. Positive AOA is also not great as you are pushing water down and around the foil before it starts generating lift. Both scenarios makes board feel like it is stuck in mud.

When you are in waves, the significant push from the wave overcomes this issue ,to a point where you rarely notice it, but when you are on the limit of the margins for getting up on flat bumps, it can make, or break your day.

My formula is to put a level on the front foil and try shim mast until it is level with bottom of board in the mast area - but I'm not sure if anyone has better ideas on how to optimise this?

You want to get the mast plate or the fuselage to be parallel with the deck of the board. The majority of foils have both mast plate and fuse parallel to each other. If you have a foil with shims or angles between mast and fuse then go for getting the fuse parallel to the board deck.
Sit your foil setup on a level surface and put packers under the tail until you get the fuse level with the ground or put a spirit level on the mast plate and get it level.
Sit your board on top of the foil ( will need a helper) put a spirit level on the deck of the board and lift it up or down until it is level. You can attach the front or rear bolts if you know which way the gap will be.Measure the gap at the rear or front of mast plate and board.That is the thickness of the wedge you need.
I remember a post where JB found it easier to start with a foil that pointed upwards, so I would lean toward that direction if unsure as having the foil point down will be a killer for sure.

I like this method, but what it doesnt take into account is volume/surface distribution. For your
method to work, the volume needs to be evenly spread out over the center/standing position?

True, I just average it out, but it gives you a good indication if it's way out of whack and you need a wedge.

For the geeks- here's some data comparison between axis PNG1300/short/420 and ART1099/Ushort/350P. Both setups ran 19mm aluminum mast.
1300 run was sitting until km #12
1099 was standing the whole way
conditions were unbelievable.
This shows how big a factor span is. Even though the 1300 is almost 600cm2 larger, it had a higher top speed, 1km, and 5km average. This could also be because the 1099 run was done a few hours later in the day when the conditions had changed a bit. Main difference in feel was the 1099 felt comfortable while the 1300 was like driving a bus on ice.

"1300 run was sitting until km #12"

Say whaaat!