Yesterday, I started to hack into my engine beds with a demolition saw. I thought I would be cutting into solid wood or GRP. I did not expect to find what appears to be a pile of off-cuts held together with some resin and air voids large enough to stick your fingers in.

I am now thinking about removing entire the bed assembly (the parts forward of the rear engine bracket - you can see the dark 'footprints' of the old bearings on the lighter beds on the upper 'steps') and replacing it with solid hardwood.

(The reason I am doing this is that the old beds were full of cracks, and the lower step was not parallel to the upper step. Also, when I put the reconditioned engine back in, I want it properly secured to the beds).

We have had 30 knot North Easters here the last couple of days. I took advantage of the draft through the boat to apply two coats of White Knights oil based paving paint to the front cabin. The white paint just visible forward in the photo. The photos and charts are mounted on the main bulkhead to hide slight defects in the plywood. The other side of this bulkhead and the the one just visible behind the jacket are plywood as well but have been skinned with Laminex in that '70's timber pattern. The galley area is also Laminex over ply. Note the bedside chest of drawers bolted up to the bulkhead opposite the heads. There is no handbasin but I did buy an Aldi fold up bucket during the week!

Achernar said..
I have recapped my adventures, so far, with my Bukh DV10 LSME Diesel engine on my blog, see here theboattinkerer.blogspot.com/2021/12/episode-30-diesel-engine-part-1-for.html

Great blog, a heap of information, thanks. Glory - obviously those engine beds don't do the original builders any credit.

r13 said..


Seeing as this is (as far as I can recall) the 3rd Ricochet based post you have mentioned the White Knight oil based paving paint is it ok if I ask some questions since using it inside my rescued 1/4tonner (hull and deckhead polyester grp circa 1977) makes a real lot of sense - as regards cost, quick dry and recoat time, minimal effort, hard wearing, satin finish, other. One of your prior posts showed a light grey version of it on the cabin sides and cockpit coamings if I recall right. I was going to use an epoxy based 2 pack satin ucoat/primer which would certainly do the job but the cost and mixing and applying time effort and drying time issues would all add up to a PITA.

So is this the paint? There are varied reviews of it on line but of course these need to be taken with more than a grain of salt. If not please advise which one you used.

www.bunnings.com.au/white-knight-accent-heavy-duty-ultra-pave-concrete-and-paving-paint-4l_p1540602

It is supposed to not need a primer over oil or water based paints but cover over grp is not mentioned in the paint blerb obviously - I assume you hand sanded the interior grp hull surfaces and de-greased them (acetone or IPA) and then slapped the paving paint on? If not what preparation was used over the grp?

Final question and probably daft - this being a paving paint with P4 slip rating I assume the resulting 2 coat finish won't take skin off elbows etc when they inadvertently contact it? Your prior photos of the cabin and cockpit coaming surfaces don't indicate this would occur.

Great thanks in advance.

That is the same paint. Just ensure you buy the oil based stuff, the acrylic is no where as good. It is a low gloss paint and I used it for years on the topsides and cabin on my fishing vessel. Does not have any non slip unless you add the non slip. On the wood hull I used to repaint every two or three years. Cabin sides were epoxy cloth over ply and the paint easily lasted 10 years. After 10 years the colour fades slightly but never chips. The only paint I found that sticks to spotted gum cappings in direct sun.
The grey paint on the cabin and decks is White Knights with Kiwigrip for the non slip. It's just two coats over epoxy and fibreglass cloth.
The fore cabin in Ricochet had been repainted by professionals in 2013. Probably by the apprentice who was sent out and slopped paint over the previous flowcoat with no preparation. I spent a lot of time removing flaking paint! A quick pass over with a disc sander then the lot was scrubbed out with "Metal Gleam" with a scouring pad {5:1}. Then a wash with truck wash to neutralize the acid. I painted the cabin out over two days and used mini rollers with the microfibre nap. The paint dries reasonably fast but the fumes are a problem. On the fishing boat I would start at the bow and with a full size roller just go around the hull twice. The paint was dry on the second pass.
When I first started using this stuff in the 1980's the company was a family Sydney based firm. Now it's been swallowed up by PPG Industries. PPG own all the good brands now like Dulux, Sikkens etc. Google PPG it's very enlightening.
January last year when I bought the grey stuff it was just over $60 a tin. The last tin from Bunnings was about $100! I have no idea where it's made now but the Americans have taken to it so I suspect it's made offshore.

Ramona said..

r13 said..


Seeing as this is (as far as I can recall) the 3rd Ricochet based post you have mentioned the White Knight oil based paving paint is it ok if I ask some questions since using it inside my rescued 1/4tonner (hull and deckhead polyester grp circa 1977) makes a real lot of sense - as regards cost, quick dry and recoat time, minimal effort, hard wearing, satin finish, other. One of your prior posts showed a light grey version of it on the cabin sides and cockpit coamings if I recall right. I was going to use an epoxy based 2 pack satin ucoat/primer which would certainly do the job but the cost and mixing and applying time effort and drying time issues would all add up to a PITA.

So is this the paint? There are varied reviews of it on line but of course these need to be taken with more than a grain of salt. If not please advise which one you used.

www.bunnings.com.au/white-knight-accent-heavy-duty-ultra-pave-concrete-and-paving-paint-4l_p1540602

It is supposed to not need a primer over oil or water based paints but cover over grp is not mentioned in the paint blerb obviously - I assume you hand sanded the interior grp hull surfaces and de-greased them (acetone or IPA) and then slapped the paving paint on? If not what preparation was used over the grp?

Final question and probably daft - this being a paving paint with P4 slip rating I assume the resulting 2 coat finish won't take skin off elbows etc when they inadvertently contact it? Your prior photos of the cabin and cockpit coaming surfaces don't indicate this would occur.

Great thanks in advance.

That is the same paint. Just ensure you buy the oil based stuff, the acrylic is no where as good. It is a low gloss paint and I used it for years on the topsides and cabin on my fishing vessel. Does not have any non slip unless you add the non slip. On the wood hull I used to repaint every two or three years. Cabin sides were epoxy cloth over ply and the paint easily lasted 10 years. After 10 years the colour fades slightly but never chips. The only paint I found that sticks to spotted gum cappings in direct sun.
The grey paint on the cabin and decks is White Knights with Kiwigrip for the non slip. It's just two coats over epoxy and fibreglass cloth.
The fore cabin in Ricochet had been repainted by professionals in 2013. Probably by the apprentice who was sent out and slopped paint over the previous flowcoat with no preparation. I spent a lot of time removing flaking paint! A quick pass over with a disc sander then the lot was scrubbed out with "Metal Gleam" with a scouring pad {5:1}. Then a wash with truck wash to neutralize the acid. I painted the cabin out over two days and used mini rollers with the microfibre nap. The paint dries reasonably fast but the fumes are a problem. On the fishing boat I would start at the bow and with a full size roller just go around the hull twice. The paint was dry on the second pass.
When I first started using this stuff in the 1980's the company was a family Sydney based firm. Now it's been swallowed up by PPG Industries. PPG own all the good brands now like Dulux, Sikkens etc. Google PPG it's very enlightening.
January last year when I bought the grey stuff it was just over $60 a tin. The last tin from Bunnings was about $100! I have no idea where it's made now but the Americans have taken to it so I suspect it's made offshore.

Thanks Woko good points regarding vertical surfaces and fumes. However this link is from the White Knights site for painting walls and it appears to be a suitable product for that.

www.whiteknightpaints.com.au/product-selector/category/concrete-garage-floors/what-are-you-painting/feature-wall-retaining-wall/whats-the-condition/previously-painted/what-type-of-finish-are-you-after/satin/

Thanks Ramona for the very detailed response including the preparation with acid wash and microfibre nap mini rollers. Will give this a go but wait for a decent southerly or noreaster like you say.

Hey Ach, Looking at that photo I see that where you have cut off the old bearer timber that it lines up with the shaft coupling. That makes it a weak point in shear and flex when you join in the new bearers.

I suggest when you marry up the new bearers that you latch into the remaining bearer timber with a tounge and groove joint or some heavy doweling. Alternatively you could through bolt galvanized steel plates joining the new to the old on the inside and outside of each bearer.

Great effort so far getting rid of what appeared to be a poor bearer installation.

Keep us posted. Cheers.

r13 said..

cisco said..
Hey Ach, Looking at that photo I see that where you have cut off the old bearer timber that it lines up with the shaft coupling. That makes it a weak point in shear and flex when you join in the new bearers.

I suggest when you marry up the new bearers that you latch into the remaining bearer timber with a tounge and groove joint or some heavy doweling. Alternatively you could through bolt galvanized steel plates joining the new to the old on the inside and outside of each bearer.

Great effort so far getting rid of what appeared to be a poor bearer installation.

Keep us posted. Cheers.

Top pick up right there. Better still would be to cut out all the original bearer timber - the 2 remaining lengths are the tapered aft ends. Leave the vertical side wall grp lay-up but remove the tapered timber pieces and the grp lay-up on the top face of them. Epoxy the new bearer timbers in and then complete the grp lay-up. Not a five minute job to take out these tapered pieces but it would leave the whole arrangement just timber and glass as per the original design - but a lot better done. Are the two fwd ends of the bearers tapered down going fwd so that they don't end in two hard spots on the hull floor? Which could be a problem. How did the original bearers fwd end finish? They could have had a lateral hull floor rib to stop this hotspot effect also?

Thanks Cisco and r13 for the observations.

Regarding the original arrangement, I can only describe it as a kludge. The rear steps appeared to be OK, but the forward steps were Jerry-made and extended with two lumps of timber bolted on to the end-grain (if you can call it that) of the steps with single coach-bolts. For a longer description, see my blog here theboattinkerer.blogspot.com/2022/01/episode-31-diesel-engine-part-2.html

Regarding the replacement, I have just purchased some Spotted Gum flooring to make up a new floor plate. (Purchase cost about $110 - thx for previous tip about red mahogany, but I could not find any in a convenient time and place). I'm currently working out how to epoxy the spotted gum with dowels (thinking of using birch dowels, Northane Boat Epoxy with Norglass - I've got a trial piece curing at present). The new floor plate is about 620 x 510mm in plan, up to 57mm thick (three layers of 19mm boards) and will do the work of spreading the loads from the beds to the hull. Its the biggest footprint I can fit in there and is intended to avoid localising the stress. The actual beds will probably be single-pieces of 6x4 hardwood from the local demolition yard, cut into wedges to match the angle between the floor and prop shaft. I'll bolt the beds onto the floor plate with brackets. The floor plate and beds are intended to be solidly built, stiff, hard and heavy - the mass and inertia will help damp the engine vibrations and the footprint will spread the load.

I will probably connect the new floor to the old hardwood beds for robustness, and to seal up the hole under the old hardwood piece. However, it will only be tabbing in the rear face of the new floor, so not a very strong point. There is no equivalent for tabbing in the front of the plate, except the cabin sole, which is also not a very strong point.

Although I can't put any calculations on it, one of the design criteria is to safely suspend the 80kg engine from the hull when the boat is upside-down. Not that I ever want to find myself in that kind of situation, but if I do, I don't want to be thinking about how the engine could be unzipping the drive shaft tube through the hull, like a wire through cheese, because the mounts have let go. Its more of a visualisation about what I want the new floor and beds to do.

I'll post more details on my blog as I get stuff done. Its been interesting, but really slow and very, very mucky.

woko said..
Stick at it ach, the filler you use for your engine bed floor be it glass, wood or wpc will only be as good as the bond to the substrate you need it really really really clean before your sand/grind it to form a key, to avoid sanding the oil/grease into the substrate ( the worst isn't over yet)
I'm a bit shocked that such a bodgy job was done initially, is it a factory layout or a backyard cowboy job ?

woke,

Yes, the bond to the hull is the weakest link. I'll be cleaning/brushing/grinding it as well as possible before pouring in the epoxy.

As far as I can tell, the existing beds were a factory job. The stepped beds suit the Bukh Engine, which is original. I would not like to say that this approach was adopted for every Cavalier 28 - hopefully the manufacturers got it right on other boats. It seems that the upper rear steps were designed properly, together with the engine bay sole. When they came to fit the engine, the lower front steps were not long enough, so they extended them, and it became a case of one bodge over another to get it out of the yard.

Update to my engine rebuild.
theboattinkerer.blogspot.com/2022/02/episode-33-diesel-engine-04-paint-acid.html

The blogs are a little behind, but I'm posting them as I find the solutions, rather than the problems.

Constructing the floor plate ... theboattinkerer.blogspot.com/2022/02/episode-34-diesel-engine-part-5.html

I've noticed that my outboard bracket has a lot of slop in it. It's getting to the point that I worry that the outboard will break free with every swell that comes by. It's only a 6hp two stroke weighing 20kg but I leave it on the bracket most of the time. Today I pulled it off the boat to see what I need to do. It looks like the stainless bolts have caused some corrosion in the Ali supports. I could just buy a new mount but I'm a cheapskate and I'm going to try and fix this.

Toss the aluminium and replace with a plastic chopping board.

Ramona said..
Toss the aluminium and replace with a plastic chopping board.

Trust this is another sarcastic comment .......................albeit there is no reason that 4 small pieces of suitably high hardness marine plastic would not do the job, saving the rest of the alum frame assuming it is of suitable structural integrity. Dotmar have a WA location and are an excellent company, selling a range of plastics to all industries of various grades, hardnesses and UV resistance. Depending on the clearances on each side of the alum plate where the holes are you should be able to fit say 6mm thick square (outside perimeter) washers each side of the alum plate (so 4 square washers in total) with the appropriate tight clearance hole for the stainless rod going through. Countersink bolt the washers to the alum plate each side with 8 off 316ss 1/8 bolts nuts washers, Tefgel flush filled as before. The plastic may not need to be marine grade - Dotmar can advise including how long you want it to last but with a suitable plastic should get 10yrs +.

But with those purchases maybe a new bracket could be cheaper.

www.dotmar.com.au/index.php

Back to the epoxy. More thickener added the thicker it gets, different thickeners for different applications. Waxed paper also makes a good release barrier, as long as you observe ppe guidelines it's a rewarding product to work with. I have seen an epoxy thread made by pouring thickened epoxy around a stainless bolt and after the epoxy set heating the bolt and unscrewing it. I'm constantly finding new ways to use epoxy, be safe with it and enjoy

r13 said..

Ramona said..
Toss the aluminium and replace with a plastic chopping board.

Trust this is another sarcastic comment .......................albeit there is no reason that 4 small pieces of suitably high hardness marine plastic would not do the job, saving the rest of the alum frame assuming it is of suitable structural integrity. Dotmar have a WA location and are an excellent company, selling a range of plastics to all industries of various grades, hardnesses and UV resistance. Depending on the clearances on each side of the alum plate where the holes are you should be able to fit say 6mm thick square (outside perimeter) washers each side of the alum plate (so 4 square washers in total) with the appropriate tight clearance hole for the stainless rod going through. Countersink bolt the washers to the alum plate each side with 8 off 316ss 1/8 bolts nuts washers, Tefgel flush filled as before. The plastic may not need to be marine grade - Dotmar can advise including how long you want it to last but with a suitable plastic should get 10yrs +.

But with those purchases maybe a new bracket could be cheaper.

www.dotmar.com.au/index.php

No I was deadly serious. Industrial sized chopping board if you can find it. I have several from the wardroom at Albatross that I use for all sorts of jobs including brackets in my race car.