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Ozone Kites Aus > 9 months ago, 6 Nov 2015

juandesooka

615 posts

9 Nov 2015 11:42pm

What do you think of rope like this for the slider? Got it at outdoor store....climbing rope. Can't remember breaking strength but it was big. Rope feels more solid than dyneema.

Haha, all ropes break eventually. I bought some rope from my ship chandlery and the dude said it would never break, they use it in the North Sea. It LOOKED like it would never break. So when it eventually did start to fray I didn't worry too much...Until it broke. I got a whole season on that rope but once it started to wear on the outer sheath, it broke. Moral of the story is this: if you see signs of wear, swap it out sooner rather than later.

Ozone Kites Aus

NSW

884 posts

Site Sponsor

10 Nov 2015 6:51am

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juandesooka said..
What do you think of rope like this for the slider? Got it at outdoor store....climbing rope. Can't remember breaking strength but it was big. Rope feels more solid than dyneema.

That rope will work, but the biggest issue with that type is that it has a woven sheath over a braided or unifibre core. The outer sheath on climbing rope is there only for protection, not for strength. The outer sheath adds size, which is needed because you use your hands to grip the rope in climbing, and to the untrained eye it looks big and therefore strong. No doubt its strong, because it climbing rope, but the sheath will hide the wear that will occur to the core. The core will wear due to salt crystals and sand contamination, and you will not be able to see this happening, until bang one day it breaks and you think wtf if you make it back home because the sheath looked fine and was not badly frayed.
Climbing rope is best used for climbing, its harder to tie compact, no slip knots in too.
Use open weave line like the stuff centre lines are made from, like the stuff thats on an original Dynabar. Rinse your lines and harness in fresh water after every session, bridles on kites that have pulleys should also be rinsed in fresh water after each use, just to help prevent salt crystals forming within the line, the crystals form when the line dries out after its been wet in salt water.

Ozone Kites Aus

NSW

884 posts

Site Sponsor

10 Nov 2015 6:59am

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Absolutbeginer said..
I don't get the carbon spreader setup?
With that ring thing on the safety that has the main loop through it, are you relying on the loop to come out of the metal ring if you pull the main safety?
Wouldn't it more than likely just get caught and not allow the safety to flag out the kite?

Please tell me what I'm missing.

Like Techtonic said it works, and I can vouch for that because I use it almost (unless there is someone to land my kite) everytime I kite. The ring and the Fig 8 shaped ring are much larger than the chicken loop and there is no way that the end of the chicken loop can get caught on the round rings.

The kite industry has not created the perfect attachment and release system, YET. All of the systems that rely on you attaching the chicken loop to a harness hook have inherent safety issues, because all of them can come unhooked accidentally and the hook itself can trap steering lines and leashes and cause accidents.
For most kiters the hook is not needed.

Do you ever think that when you put your seat belt on in the car that you have permanently attached yourself into a car? The only way out of that seat belt in an emergency is to push the release button isn't it? (and even then you have to open a door)
When you attach yourself to a kite with a harness hook and fit the donkey dick thing, then you have basically done the same thing, and the only reliable way out is to push your red safety release isn't it?
So its no different to attaching to a ring, but the ring cannot tangle your lines and cause accidents, and you cannot accidentally come "unhooked" which has also cause accidents.

Some people will say that they prefer the hook because that gives them the chance in an emergency to manually unhook, but the reality is that if the kite is looping and pulling you hard towards rocks and your probable death, is that you will not have the strength or mental reaction to release yourself. They say that the chicken loop might jam, but I'll bet my life on the chicken loop I use releasing over that other dubious scenario because I test my chicken loop almost every time I kite, and everyone that does not unhook should use this method of attaching to the kite.

loftsofwind

QLD

226 posts

10 Nov 2015 7:20am

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TerryMcTool said..

loftsofwind said..
Why wouldn’t you chuck some plastic tubing around the rope.

Bye bye rope wear

You could do that, but I'd advise against it.
There have been countless accidents in kiting (including large single line novelty/display kites) and yachting, using sheathed ropes, because the user cannot see any wear that occurs due to the action of the sliding load or pulley wheel and contamination with sand or even salt crystals. Its happend to me in buggying, and I've seen it happen with large and potentially very dangerous when let loose, single line kites, etc. The open braided rope is the best option for this type of application, because the wear is visible.

@DimiSUP
Although its highly unlikely, because as you said the outer rope on the Dynabar ropes, tend to break in the middle. For the eye to lease from the pin, all of that mangled/frazzled outer rope would need to get pulled through the small hole in the bar AND around the pin. I think just the fact that there are 2 changes in direction and the small hole in the spreader where the rope goes through would prevent the outer rope from ever slipping, but technically its possible. I'd recommend changing the Dynabar rope just a bit sooner than when its completely broken the outer sheath! Or make your own with the 4/5mm dyneema most good kite shops sell as replacement rope for broken uncovered centre line.
I like your fixed centre ring option, easy to do and use as the leash connection point until you want to ride TT or race, then just swap c-loop and leash positions, nice!

Well then use clear see through tube

juandesooka

615 posts

10 Nov 2015 6:51am

Hey, that's a pretty good idea....clear tubing for both depower lines and chicken loops, see what's going on under there. On a semi-unrelated note, I just got a new-to-me used 2015 BWS bar. The chicken loop material is noticeably harder than previous version, more like hard plastic rather than rubber tubing. It had some dents in it from hook of prior user. My first session, I had to punch out due to large gust, and the chicken loop shattered into 3 pieces. However, the line inside it was fine. So, there you go ... the opposite problem! Another thing to look for, cracks in the chicken loop plastic.

toppleover

QLD

2067 posts

10 Nov 2015 8:55am

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loftsofwind said...

TerryMcTool said..

loftsofwind said..
Why wouldn’t you chuck some plastic tubing around the rope.

Bye bye rope wear

Well then use clear see through tube

I tried using clear fuel line hose, think I had the CL hooked straight to it & it didn't slide very well. (Seems to grab then release)
I've used my V8 about 30 times now using the double rings & amazed at how little the rope has stretched.

nebbian

6277 posts

10 Nov 2015 8:10am

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juandesooka said..
Hey, that's a pretty good idea....clear tubing for both depower lines and chicken loops, see what's going on under there. On a semi-unrelated note, I just got a new-to-me used 2015 BWS bar. The chicken loop material is noticeably harder than previous version, more like hard plastic rather than rubber tubing. It had some dents in it from hook of prior user. My first session, I had to punch out due to large gust, and the chicken loop shattered into 3 pieces. However, the line inside it was fine. So, there you go ... the opposite problem! Another thing to look for, cracks in the chicken loop plastic.

Yeah that's not a perfect solution. That's how windsurfing adjustable harness lines work -- clear tubing over braided rope. The problem is that the clear tubing fills up with sand, grinding it into the rope whereas if the tubing wasn't there the sand would just fall out.

It's a tricky problem.

IanR

NSW

1327 posts

10 Nov 2015 12:24pm

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TerryMcTool said..

Whilst I think mosts of the system shown are fine, particularly the ones after Dafish's intput
I would not ride with the above setup
The CL goes through both the blue and black rope and the shackle
The likelyhood of the metal tag on the end of the CL tangling on the rope and shackle is too high for me

Also I think that releasing your loop under no load is not a test.
To test a CL safety release it must release under load, preferably 100% of your body wieght
I am not aware of any issues with the release on Terry's favorite brand of CL and believe they release underload

Ozone Kites Aus

NSW

884 posts

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10 Nov 2015 12:29pm

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nebbian said..

Yep, and worse still some black tubing chicken loops break from sand getting inside, worth changing them every couple of seasons, but also taking care of it and not letting it get covered in sand and rinsing it after each use to help prevent salt crystal formation.
Clear tubing also prevent the rope from flexing at the ends, so the whole slider does not move as far.
And there is the issue of wear points created by the ends of the clear tubing. Most shops sell the spare dyneema line for about $5 per metre, thats enough for 2 lines, not worth bothering with a tubing cover is it, apart from all the problems you create by putting the tube on anyway.

Absolutbeginer

QLD

105 posts

10 Nov 2015 10:33pm

Terry, that rope he suggested is not climbing rope.
Climbing rope is not bulked up to make it easier to pull on, you don't pull on it.
The rope is only there to catch you if you fall, you pull on the rock.

The outer core of climbing rope is very tightly woven to prevent as much dirt intrusion as possible, most are also dry coated so that water falls off them and not soaks through to leave your dreaded salt crystals.
Climbing rope is balls strong and yes the sheath does contribute to that strength, but a lessor portion.
Climbing rope also has a very good 'hand', so is very easy to tie and handle.
Climbing rope would be ideal but way overated and too bulky.

The rope he has purchased is typically used for building anchors and is very strong and as it has been designed to resist sheath abrasion and dirt penetration is an ideal choice.

Now something that seems to be missing here is physics.
All of the setups shown above have quite high force multiplication built into them.
Again from the climbing world, when building a two piece anchor, the goal is never to let the angle between the arms exceed around 60 degrees.
Anything more than this and the forces start to go through the roof.

Imagine if you could tie your rope with a virtually zero slack in it.
Set up like that the forces on either end of the rope approach infinity.
You have created mechanical advantage system where a small force from the kite creates a huge force on both the spreader bar and the rope.

And coming from a climbing background where you soon learn that strange things can happen under high load whippy chord situations, I doubt that the above system using the figure 8 or the one using the small D shackle leave enough room for funky things to happen without risk of not so nice circumstances.

Below is my setup I have been playing with over winter waiting for the wind to come.

Big ring is large diametre for easy sliding and also big enough inside to not get hooked up on release. (hopefully that is, I may yet switch to a bigger one)
Sling is 22Kn rated dyneema climbing sling and note that the angle it makes is around 90 degrees so as to avoid high force multiplication.
Even at this angle the sling will see higher loads than what the kite is pulling. If it was 60 degrees, it would see equal to the kite pulling power.
Donkey dick to be removed as well as hook and a short safety made.
Also need to make a safety keeping in mind simplicity to prevent strange things happening under load and twisting/moving bits getting caught.
The ring is hard anodised 22Kn rated rap ring, don't yet know how it will fare in the salt, but is way lighter than a stainless equivalent.

That rap ring for some reason looks smaller in the photo......

rollo19

93 posts

10 Nov 2015 9:16pm

If the duct tape holds..

LostDog

445 posts

10 Nov 2015 9:48pm

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Absolutbeginer said..
Terry, that rope he suggested is not climbing rope.
Climbing rope is not bulked up to make it easier to pull on, you don't pull on it.
The rope is only there to catch you if you fall, you pull on the rock.

The outer core of climbing rope is very tightly woven to prevent as much dirt intrusion as possible, most are also dry coated so that water falls off them and not soaks through to leave your dreaded salt crystals.
Climbing rope is balls strong and yes the sheath does contribute to that strength, but a lessor portion.
Climbing rope also has a very good 'hand', so is very easy to tie and handle.
Climbing rope would be ideal but way overated and too bulky.

The rope he has purchased is typically used for building anchors and is very strong and as it has been designed to resist sheath abrasion and dirt penetration is an ideal choice.

Now something that seems to be missing here is physics.
All of the setups shown above have quite high force multiplication built into them.
Again from the climbing world, when building a two piece anchor, the goal is never to let the angle between the arms exceed around 60 degrees.
Anything more than this and the forces start to go through the roof.

Imagine if you could tie your rope with a virtually zero slack in it.
Set up like that the forces on either end of the rope approach infinity.
You have created mechanical advantage system where a small force from the kite creates a huge force on both the spreader bar and the rope.

And coming from a climbing background where you soon learn that strange things can happen under high load whippy chord situations, I doubt that the above system using the figure 8 or the one using the small D shackle leave enough room for funky things to happen without risk of not so nice circumstances.

Below is my setup I have been playing with over winter waiting for the wind to come.

Big ring is large diametre for easy sliding and also big enough inside to not get hooked up on release. (hopefully that is, I may yet switch to a bigger one)
Sling is 22Kn rated dyneema climbing sling and note that the angle it makes is around 90 degrees so as to avoid high force multiplication.
Even at this angle the sling will see higher loads than what the kite is pulling. If it was 60 degrees, it would see equal to the kite pulling power.
Donkey dick to be removed as well as hook and a short safety made.
Also need to make a safety keeping in mind simplicity to prevent strange things happening under load and twisting/moving bits getting caught.
The ring is hard anodised 22Kn rated rap ring, don't yet know how it will fare in the salt, but is way lighter than a stainless equivalent.

That rap ring for some reason looks smaller in the photo......

chalks

10 posts

11 Nov 2015 4:01am

A pic of my set up. Not perfect as the rope tends to stretch but otherwise seems to work ok.

Ozone Kites Aus

NSW

884 posts

Site Sponsor

11 Nov 2015 9:48am

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Yeah I'm no climber, but my son is, and I've learned a bit from him, Goshen Watts www.facebook.com/goshenw/videos/10153777697137174/
I'm going to argue that you do use the rope for pulling on, when you ascend and descend, and it is bulked up for sure so that its easier to handle, similar rated line could be made much thinner but it would be very hazardous to use.

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Absolutbeginer said..
The outer core of climbing rope is very tightly woven to prevent as much dirt intrusion as possible, most are also dry coated so that water falls off them and not soaks through to leave your dreaded salt crystals.
Climbing rope is balls strong and yes the sheath does contribute to that strength, but a lessor portion.
Climbing rope also has a very good 'hand', so is very easy to tie and handle.
Climbing rope would be ideal but way overated and too bulky.

The rope he has purchased is typically used for building anchors and is very strong and as it has been designed to resist sheath abrasion and dirt penetration is an ideal choice.

In his post, he said he bought from a outdoors shop and it was sold to him as climbing rope? My sons ropes have a very high quality, fine, outer sheath, but its not woven super tight, he always protects the rope from contamination, they are stored in sealed bags and groundsheets are used when climbing. Protection is used where the rope crosses rocks or trees, climbers are super careful with their ropes, UNLIKE kiters!

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Absolutbeginer said..
Now something that seems to be missing here is physics.
All of the setups shown above have quite high force multiplication built into them.
Again from the climbing world, when building a two piece anchor, the goal is never to let the angle between the arms exceed around 60 degrees.
Anything more than this and the forces start to go through the roof.

Imagine if you could tie your rope with a virtually zero slack in it.
Set up like that the forces on either end of the rope approach infinity.
You have created mechanical advantage system where a small force from the kite creates a huge force on both the spreader bar and the rope.

And coming from a climbing background where you soon learn that strange things can happen under high load whippy chord situations, I doubt that the above system using the figure 8 or the one using the small D shackle leave enough room for funky things to happen without risk of not so nice circumstances.

I'm glad you raised this point as I see some riders who have made their rope too tight, the only thing saving them is the massive over rating of the dyneema rope they have used. The reason they do it is because the chicken loop movement is smoother.
I don't think the forces on a slider set up like we use in kiting can approach infinity. Not sure that any force can approach infinity, well especially infinity +1 (joke), I think you mean the forces can rise exponentially - but still related the applied load?

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Absolutbeginer said..
Below is my setup I have been playing with over winter waiting for the wind to come.

Big ring is large diametre for easy sliding and also big enough inside to not get hooked up on release. (hopefully that is, I may yet switch to a bigger one)
Sling is 22Kn rated dyneema climbing sling and note that the angle it makes is around 90 degrees so as to avoid high force multiplication.
Even at this angle the sling will see higher loads than what the kite is pulling. If it was 60 degrees, it would see equal to the kite pulling power.
Donkey dick to be removed as well as hook and a short safety made.
Also need to make a safety keeping in mind simplicity to prevent strange things happening under load and twisting/moving bits getting caught.
The ring is hard anodised 22Kn rated rap ring, don't yet know how it will fare in the salt, but is way lighter than a stainless equivalent.

That rap ring for some reason looks smaller in the photo......

The anodising should stop it corroding for a while, until the coating is worn off or scratched, weight of a ring is not an issue, but the ring you have used will not hang up on the chicken loop end. Use an Ozone, Dynabar or Cabrinha short leash, they are all well designed and do the job.
Is the sling made from webbing, not rope? How have you attached the ends can't see in the photo?
Remove the donkey dick by removing the screw retaining the chicken loop, then slide it off, keep it in case you want to sell the bar and lines later?

Ozone Kites Aus

NSW

884 posts

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11 Nov 2015 9:51am

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rollo19 said..

If the duct tape holds..

Have you used this setup rollo19? Does the chicken loop slide from side to side easily along the spreader bar?
Is that a quick release that has been taped shut? Hope its good waterproof tape and there is no way the release can open when you are kiting?

SimonDreyer

82 posts

11 Nov 2015 9:52am

I wonder if you could use one of these?

Maximum working load 300kg
Maximum breaking strain 1050kg
50mm length

The track can be bent slightly. Would just need some ends fabricated.

Ozone Kites Aus

NSW

884 posts

Site Sponsor

11 Nov 2015 1:27pm

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chalks said..
A pic of my set up. Not perfect as the rope tends to stretch but otherwise seems to work ok.

Looks good, simple and strong. You could adjust more easily if you did not have the knots on the inside of the spreader bar clips, but like Absolutebeginner said don't make it too tight/short, make sure you don't go tighter/shorter than a 50/60degree angle.

LostDog

445 posts

11 Nov 2015 10:29am

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LostDog said..

I think your opinion on the forces on the rope slider is being over-thought.
A quick calculation can show that the rope forces for a heavy bloke should never get anywhere near the breaking strain of 6mm dyneema.

Also consider that the rope manufacturers will have factors of safety approaching 3-6x (in some cases) on what they state as the breaking strain.

The more slack you have in the rope, the more difficult it will be for the ring to slide, you want a small angle for an effective slider.

flyingcab

VIC

942 posts

11 Nov 2015 4:39pm

Nice try Lostdog, here is a more in depth one that is actually accurate.

LostDog

445 posts

11 Nov 2015 2:51pm

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flyingcab said..
Nice try Lostdog, here is a more in depth one that is actually accurate.

Do I need to draw you a picture for you to understand it?

ColTech

QLD

47 posts

11 Nov 2015 5:02pm

Can you guys make the simple act of kite surfing any more complicated and lame?

chalks

10 posts

11 Nov 2015 5:55pm

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TerryMcTool said..

chalks said..
A pic of my set up. Not perfect as the rope tends to stretch but otherwise seems to work ok.

Agreed. I put the knots on the inside to try to stop the rope pulling through but as you say, it does make it more difficult to adjust so will remove them. As for making it too tight, I find that the angle tends to widen as I kite.

I have experimented with rings and find that the larger diameter is better for releasing the safety, which otherwise could catch. I also think that I will move the rope to above the clips on the bar so as to reduce twisting force. Other than that, it seems to work pretty well and means that the bar is nearer to me than when I use my Dynabar, though not by much. It is much lighter though.

sir ROWDY

5378 posts

11 Nov 2015 6:08pm

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ColTech said..
Can you guys make the simple act of kite surfing any more complicated and lame?

Shutup and post your hook Col!

flyingcab

VIC

942 posts

11 Nov 2015 9:42pm

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ColTech said...
Can you guys make the simple act of kite surfing any more complicated and lame?

Without people like us you would still be using the gear in my avatar

Prawnhead

NSW

1317 posts

11 Nov 2015 9:51pm

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sir ROWDY said..

ColTech said..
Can you guys make the simple act of kite surfing any more complicated and lame?

Shutup and post your hook Col!

just a thought ....unhooked riding should be/is a helpful fundamental kitesurfing skill! by all means ditch the hook but be comfortable with or without it or permanent tether !

just throwing it out there!

JacobMatan

431 posts

11 Nov 2015 7:28pm

I am glad that this thread has been started as I have been meaning to bring it up here for a while. I have been using my customised sliding spreader for about a year now and I love it I wouldn't go back to a fixed hook. I have included a pic below, I use 3 pieces of 500kg dyneema one of which I keep a little looser than the others so that it wears last and is the safety, I have tied these directly onto the spreader bar, I then use 2 rope sliders lashed to a piece of hook that I cut off. Overall it makes for a nice smooth ride. I keep an eye on the condition of all the components, the line needs to be replaced about every 3 months or so depending on how much I have been kiting, the other parts require little to no maintenance.

I like the setup but the only problem I have with it is the extra reach that it adds which can be uncomfortable in powered up conditions. After reading this thread I think I will swap the hook to 2 rings. I had been worried about one ring breaking the chicken loop as it does not spread the load like a normal hook but I guess 2 rings would be ok.

I had also been worried a bit about using a direct connection. I guess really when it comes down to it if your CL jams when you really need it whether your on a hook or a ring your kinda screwed either way. At least with a direct connection you are constantly checking your release and keeping the parts moving.

Using rings would take a very small amount out of the reach but it won't really solve the problem. I need to get a much shorter chicken loop or customise my own chicken loop. Does naish do a smaller chicken loop?

Kamikuza

QLD

6493 posts

11 Nov 2015 9:30pm

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Prawnhead said..

sir ROWDY said..

ColTech said..
Can you guys make the simple act of kite surfing any more complicated and lame?

Shutup and post your hook Col!

Tosh.

JacobMatan

431 posts

11 Nov 2015 7:35pm

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Hi Dimi Sup how have you made the custom chicken loop for the naish bar, what did you use for the metal part that fits into the QR and what is that your using to hold the safety line next to the bar?

That is pretty much what I am after

Absolutbeginer

QLD

105 posts

11 Nov 2015 11:28pm

Lost Dog, breaking strain is just that, whatever average it breaks at to whatever sigma level they tested.
Safe working load or SWL will be several times less than that, as you suggested.

So for my set up with 22Kn sling ( that is what it will break at )derated for knots, loss of strength from being wet, loss of strength for tight bends where it goes around the spreader bar I would figure that with aging and a bit of strength loss from UV exposure that it could really only be 9Kn at best.
For simplicity lets call it 900kg.

Now if you weigh 100kg (easy number to use and not unrealistic for some kiters) and if you can pull 3G in a maneuver (300kg) my setup will be fine, but if you tighten that sling up to 30 deg, you are dangerously close to breaking it.

Much better to make it slide easier by increasing the ring/rope bearing surface than by tightening the rope or sling; Also makes the rope much stronger at this high wear, high load point. Same applies to the chicken loop, they are not designed to interface with a skinny stainless ring.

Terry, you use ascenders to go up, and descenders to go down.
The only time you actually hold the rope is when belaying or rapping and that is by the tail that has a large amount of mechanical advantage built into the system.
Try climbing a rope by just grabbing it and climbing up and tell me how you go, the real world is not like the movies, there are very few people that can actually hand over hand themselves up a rope.

For those of you who understand the difference between Kg and Kn, I apologise for dumbing it down to non geek level.

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