The analysis of mast drag as a percentage of the complete foil was done by Cody with Inde Foil but the site is down. He showed that reducing mast thickness from 19 to 12mm (about 20% mast drag reduction) lowered overall drag of the foil system by about 3%. This is because the vast majority of the foil drag comes from the foil wings, which have far more wetted area than the submerged portion of the mast, and lift-induced drag. It's also in-line with my experiences selling Project Cedrus: Most people did not notice additional drag. Partly because it's about average in terms of drag, but they also gained confidence at speed due to more control. It really depended on what the rider was coming from. There was also definitely a placebo affect. I've learned some people just believe what they want to believe, and they read or heard that it was slower so that's what they felt.

This all being said, the #1 request from my Evolution Cedrus survey was to improve high speed performance. This is somewhat related to the #2 requested area of improvement which was ventilation resistance. I 100% agree with @alysum that ventilation should be higher priority for designers. However, as you mention it's a really complex phenomenon (projectcedrus.com/cedrus-development/notes-on-ventilation/) that few designers truly know how to tackle. I've also found that it's extremely rider/conditions dependent. I do get emails from people asking me to print fences for their OEM masts too. I definitely address ventilation resistance with Evolution Cedrus, and am confident that it will be one of if not the most ventilation resistant masts on the market.

In the same survey I asked riders what they would give up, and those answers were weight and $$. So, the new mast will be heavier and more expensive than the Classic... but that's what you wanted:)

I,m saving up for it :)
I tried lots of foils and gear the last few months including the new Neilpryde and Cabrinha MK2. The Cab MK2 has noticeable less drag as the Cedrus, but i,m 97kg and where MK1 was a complete noodle for me, he MK2 was better but still not stiff enough for me. What l learned from all that trying is that I can get away with a bit less stiffness as the Cedrus, but not a lot. So for NOW the clasic Cedrus is the best compromise for me..probably till the new one is abvailable.

btw: I wing most of the time in very confused choppy water with a strong current under high angles and had some ventilation problems in the past with my Cedrus (without the vent ribble) when going fast with my Cab H800 foil, but since I saned it very lightly with 1500 and 2000 sandpaper it is smoother and no vent at all anymore.Of course this could be increase skills or placebo, but the difference between before and after sanding was quite big

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BayAreaKite said..
The analysis of mast drag as a percentage of the complete foil was done by Cody with Inde Foil but the site is down. He showed that reducing mast thickness from 19 to 12mm (about 20% mast drag reduction) lowered overall drag of the foil system by about 3%. This is because the vast majority of the foil drag comes from the foil wings, which have far more wetted area than the submerged portion of the mast, and lift-induced drag.

If this was true then we probably wouldn't be able to feel the difference between riding at the top of the mast and the bottom of a tapered mast, and yet it feels very noticeable when you get low on them. This especially true on a modern high performance foil.

It isn't noticeable on a bigger pump foil. I think that Inde foil study while appreciated is not longer that relevant as it was done on a big thick foil?

your counterpoint is flawed. The main factor in why you feel such a difference riding high and low on a mast is how much mast is in the water (tapered or untapered) - which is going to have much more of an impact than a few mm of chord or thickness. Furthermore all the tapered masts I know of are tapered in both thickness and chord (Axis, Uni, Code).

Of course the masts contribution to system drag (as a %) is going to depending on the drag of the foil, but that doesn't change the point about thickness vs chord that Kyle is making.

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BayAreaKite said..
In the same survey I asked riders what they would give up, and those answers were weight and $$. So, the new mast will be heavier and more expensive than the Classic... but that's what you wanted:)

Thanks for that analysis, it's very much in line with what I'm "feeling" comparing different masts recently.

Just yesterday I made the decision to demo the new Lift mast for my Lift wings as a temporary solution and have given up waiting for the V2 NL. The only real advantage of the NL to me would be that it's considerably lighter which I've already proven to myself isn't noticeable in use, only carrying it. Could even be a negative as Burchas once pointed out, the board is less likely to end up upside down after a crash.

Looking forward though to see what your V2 Cedrus look like Kyle as my universal solution.

cornwallis you are arguing my point exactly. Masts taper in both thickness and chord length, with the latter having a bigger impact on drag. This is why they feel so much slower as your ride height decreases. As I said earlier it's really hard to argue "feels". I am an engineer and I make decisions based on data and analysis. I leave the wing design to others because those are "feels." The tapered mast argument is not one I'm really interested in going down. Increased chord length does nothing beneficial up high. It doesn't add bending stiffness (this would come from thickness) and it increases drag a lot when you are riding low. It's typically done because that's where carbon masts break (due to inerlaminar tension failures). Short chord length down low also doesn't help, as it reduces torsional stiffness and promotes ventilation. I have never understood why masts taper. I know most brands do it, but the engineering justification is not there. A constant chord length mast will have more progressive "feels" as ride height changes, better stiffness characteristics, and can have less drag potentially when ridden at half height and definitely when fully submerged.

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BayAreaKite said..
I have never understood why masts taper.

I was lucky enough to test super wide span front wings back to back on the Axis 19mm Aluminum mast, versus their best tapered carbon mast prototype.

With those super wide front wings, the place the mast is flexing from can be felt by anyone. Even a kook like me. The Aluminum mast felt like it was flexing right under my board. Massive board wobbles. The tapered carbon mast had far less board wobble. The flex felt lower on the mast.

Switch to normal span front wings, and you cannot feel any difference.

Just depends on where you play. In the crazy span wings, or normal.

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DWF said..

BayAreaKite said..
I have never understood why masts taper.

I was lucky enough to test super wide span front wings back to back on the Axis 19mm Aluminum mast, versus their best tapered carbon mast prototype.

With those super wide front wings, the place the mast is flexing from can be felt by anyone. Even a kook like me. The Aluminum mast felt like it was flexing right under my board. Massive board wobbles. The tapered carbon mast had far less board wobble. The flex felt lower on the mast.

Switch to normal span front wings, and you cannot feel any difference.

Just depends on where you play. In the crazy span wings, or normal.

Another point of consideration with ultra HA span foils is the foil itself flexing.
I believe that is why BETA foils has a dual mast configuration.

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DWF said..

BayAreaKite said..
I have never understood why masts taper.

... The Aluminum mast felt like it was flexing right under my board. Massive board wobbles. The tapered carbon mast had far less board wobble. The flex felt lower on the mast...

You are arguing his point exactly. With Super wide span wings this $200 Cedrus Alu mast takes care of the stiffness issue, even at 90cm.

Kyle, Velociraptor - apologies I probably mis-stated the point I was trying to make which is the following and has nothing to do with chord and taper and shouldn't have mentioned it, which on review you're right, that explains why I dislike the taper..

On slow foils the mast drag isn't apparent and on fast foils it is, which is a comment on the Inde research which I think is excellent and would love someone to do it for contemporary foils (and include the full mast section)

And yes good point on feeling - I feel the difference between more or less mast in the water, and would like to minimise that feeling (I know you can't engineer for feelings ) the same way I'd like a foil to feel less pitchy and a board to feel more rigid.

v2 mast info is public now. Tapered in thickness and chord. foil end of the mast tapers to 15.5mm x 118.9mm. No universal option.

www.nolimitz.com/nolimitzv2foilmast

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Velocicraptor said..
v2 mast info is public now. Tapered in thickness and chord. foil end of the mast tapers to 15.5mm x 118.9mm. No universal option.

www.nolimitz.com/nolimitzv2foilmast

Well I guess there are some limitz. This mast looks sick but half of the fun is that it could be used on different brands. Bummer

"The NoLimitz V2 is offered with a bonded on, dedicated adapter that fits the foil brand of your choice's fuselage. The V2 is not offered with a universal adapter. The adapter it comes with will only fit that fuselage. "

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broVan said..

Velocicraptor said..
v2 mast info is public now. Tapered in thickness and chord. foil end of the mast tapers to 15.5mm x 118.9mm. No universal option.

www.nolimitz.com/nolimitzv2foilmast

Well I guess there are some limitz. This mast looks sick but half of the fun is that it could be used on different brands. Bummer

"The NoLimitz V2 is offered with a bonded on, dedicated adapter that fits the foil brand of your choice's fuselage. The V2 is not offered with a universal adapter. The adapter it comes with will only fit that fuselage. "

What most folks do is get the Takuma adapter bonded in place. You could almost call the Takuma foot a universal adapter. It's one of the "lowest volume" (smallest). Many adapters available to "larger volume" mast foots like Lift, Uni, etc. via Stringy and Foil Parts, probably others. You can also get custom fuses from Stringy for Sab and Go Foil with a Takuma pocket for the NL.

Just fondled the V2 NL a couple of hours ago. It's amazingly light

I messaged Stringy on Insta & he confirmed that his adapter's made to suit the old Takuma (3xM6 bolts) mast are also compatible with the new NLV2 Takuma.

The old Takuma connection is crap. Wish they would move to an m8 standard for all of the adapters. Whatever company uses a m8 butt connection (Cedrus) or small pocket m8 should be the standard for adapters. Even better yet - standardize a universal m8 connection so we don't need to stack adapters.

Yeah, it's not a perfect solution but there's always the option of having it setup for one brand. For me the length is kind of a deal breaker. The NL is either 78 or 85. Compared it to the Lift 32 (about 81.3cm) and they seem to be measuring in the same way, board to top of fuse. Prefer to stay in the low 80's.

I did some measuring yesterday on a Mikes Lab 600 and mast, nowadays I bring calipers everywhere
Mast was 14mm x 120mm down near the fuse.

The Lift X2 is a bit portly at 17 x 125mm, it is super stiff though, at least the 32. The old standby Axis Alu, 19 x 120mm

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burchas said..

DWF said..

BayAreaKite said..
I have never understood why masts taper.

... The Aluminum mast felt like it was flexing right under my board. Massive board wobbles. The tapered carbon mast had far less board wobble. The flex felt lower on the mast...

You are arguing his point exactly. With Super wide span wings this $200 Cedrus Alu mast takes care of the stiffness issue, even at 90cm.

How do you think that Cedrus aluminum mast (in a 80cm) would do with the 156cm front wing?

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Fishdude said..

burchas said..

DWF said..

BayAreaKite said..
I have never understood why masts taper.

... The Aluminum mast felt like it was flexing right under my board. Massive board wobbles. The tapered carbon mast had far less board wobble. The flex felt lower on the mast...

You are arguing his point exactly. With Super wide span wings this $200 Cedrus Alu mast takes care of the stiffness issue, even at 90cm.

How do you think that Cedrus aluminum mast (in a 80cm) would do with the 156cm front wing?

I'd say that if the Cedrus can't handle it I'm not sure if you'll find success elsewhere. I mostly ride this setup with my 74cm Carbon Cedrus.
FYI I just saw someone posted on the Zone forum an 80cm Carbon Cedrus for $550.

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burchas said..

Fishdude said..

burchas said..

DWF said..

BayAreaKite said..
I have never understood why masts taper.

... The Aluminum mast felt like it was flexing right under my board. Massive board wobbles. The tapered carbon mast had far less board wobble. The flex felt lower on the mast...

You are arguing his point exactly. With Super wide span wings this $200 Cedrus Alu mast takes care of the stiffness issue, even at 90cm.

How do you think that Cedrus aluminum mast (in a 80cm) would do with the 156cm front wing?

I'd say that if the Cedrus can't handle it I'm not sure if you'll find success elsewhere. I mostly ride this setup with my 74cm Carbon Cedrus.
FYI I just saw someone posted on the Zone forum an 80cm Carbon Cedrus for $550.

That someone is me. It's still available.

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Alysum said..
Everyone is indeed obsessed with stiffness/thickness/chord/drag etc... but what about ventilation ?
I've heard the NL v1 ventilated a lot, glad I never bought one.

Really you heard the V1 ventilates.. I have nothing to do with NL but that statement is so far from the truth , I just had to kick in. The only thing ventilating in these pics is my foil , the NL mast is slicing through like a hot knife in butter. What you feel and what's actually happening can be two very different things .What's often the culprit is the over sized fat rear wing blowing out .

FYI:

Kyle from ProjectCedrus:

"I'll give you a sneak peak that Evolution Cedrus is 16mm. But the way I really cut drag? Chord length. Evolution Cedrus will have less drag than NoLimitz V2, despite being thicker in certain areas. And it's going to be a lot stiffer, and stronger, and universal, just like it always has been."

Source: forum.progressionproject.com/t/opinions-no-limitz-v2-especially-vs-new-f-one-hm-14-mast/2886/24

Just incase you're rushing to buy the latest and greatest NLV2 could be beneficial to hold off until Evolution Cedrus lands and see how things stack up.

Can,t wait and started saving :)To be honest: I tried mast that felt more slippery through the water like the carbon Fone 14mm and the Cabrinha V2 mast. Both felt faster with the same foils as with the Cedrus BUT i,m also 96kg....and so far no mast did hit that sweet spot of drag vs stiffness like my Cedrus. If thew one is even better it will be a hit for me.

Do you accept deep frozen kidneys?

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Jeroensurf said..
Can,t wait and started saving :)To be honest: I tried mast that felt more slippery through the water like the carbon Fone 14mm and the Cabrinha V2 mast. Both felt faster with the same foils as with the Cedrus BUT i,m also 96kg....and so far no mast did hit that sweet spot of drag vs stiffness like my Cedrus. If thew one is even better it will be a hit for me.

Do you accept deep frozen kidneys?

At 96Kg neither the F one or Cabrinha systems will hold up for you for very long (or even me at 90Kg). I know a 60Kg guy that breaks F-one parts. We're pretty much stuck with Go Foil or replacing bits of other brands every six months.

I,m riding the Cab H1200-1000-800 with my Cedrus and that combo is fine. I demoed the new MK2 mast and that is a fair bit stiffer as the old one. It feels faster/less drag as the Cedrus but has still has noticeable flex (although a lot less as the first gen). More then I like so for now I stick with my Cedrus and start saving for the evolution hoping it feels almost like a revolution.

Gofoil is great too, but in the netherlands very hard to get. only available on order from France, no demo-gear or 2th hand market.

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foilthegreats said..
FYI:

Kyle from ProjectCedrus:

"I'll give you a sneak peak that Evolution Cedrus is 16mm. But the way I really cut drag? Chord length. Evolution Cedrus will have less drag than NoLimitz V2, despite being thicker in certain areas. And it's going to be a lot stiffer, and stronger, and universal, just like it always has been."

Source: forum.progressionproject.com/t/opinions-no-limitz-v2-especially-vs-new-f-one-hm-14-mast/2886/24

Just incase you're rushing to buy the latest and greatest NLV2 could be beneficial to hold off until Evolution Cedrus lands and see how things stack up.

Interesting topic with the like of MrBennetts and Kane de Wilde chipping in, the objective versus subjective experience and a whole lot of theories and bruised ego's.

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RaymondWitvoet said..

foilthegreats said..
FYI:

Kyle from ProjectCedrus:

"I'll give you a sneak peak that Evolution Cedrus is 16mm. But the way I really cut drag? Chord length. Evolution Cedrus will have less drag than NoLimitz V2, despite being thicker in certain areas. And it's going to be a lot stiffer, and stronger, and universal, just like it always has been."

Source: forum.progressionproject.com/t/opinions-no-limitz-v2-especially-vs-new-f-one-hm-14-mast/2886/24

Just incase you're rushing to buy the latest and greatest NLV2 could be beneficial to hold off until Evolution Cedrus lands and see how things stack up.

Interesting topic with the like of MrBennetts and Kane de Wilde chipping in, the objective versus subjective experience and a whole lot of theories and bruised ego's.

I love it. So much better than companies hiding behind marketing departments.

forum.progressionproject.com/t/opinions-no-limitz-v2-especially-vs-new-f-one-hm-14-mast/2886/67

That is a great read, tons of info to sort through.

Regardless of whether you believe thickness or chord length has the greatest impact on drag (my gut says they're about equal factors), neither the NL or the new Cedrus can compete with the the Allure or Phantom masts. They (NL & Cedrus) are just "good" in the drag department and a slight step up in performance from stock manufacturers masts. They 'might' be stiffer but is that stiffness of noticeable benefit?

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Thatspec said..

At 96Kg neither the F one or Cabrinha systems will hold up for you for very long (or even me at 90Kg). I know a 60Kg guy that breaks F-one parts. We're pretty much stuck with Go Foil or replacing bits of other brands every six months.

To clarify this a bit... I break Lift parts too and keep buying them. Even my Go Foil RS1300 has cracks, (possibly just in the fill material and still perfectly useable). I'm still considering an F-one Sk8 setup mainly to get on that mast. It might break (hopefully slowly) but that's just the cost of higher performance gear

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Thatspec said..
forum.progressionproject.com/t/opinions-no-limitz-v2-especially-vs-new-f-one-hm-14-mast/2886/67

That is a great read, tons of info to sort through.

Regardless of whether you believe thickness or chord length has the greatest impact on drag (my gut says they're about equal factors), neither the NL or the new Cedrus can compete with the the Allure or Phantom masts. They (NL & Cedrus) are just "good" in the drag department and a slight step up in performance from stock manufacturers masts. They 'might' be stiffer but is that stiffness of noticeable benefit?

I think that is very much depending on your weight.Someone who is like 50-60 kg can get away with a less stiff mast to get the same feel as I do with my 95kg (and slowly shrinking).I tried the 14mm Fone mast and it is okay, but I feel it bending and twisting allover the place. That inflicts with steering and control.A local I had a chat with last week didn't notice that at all with the mast.....but he was 35kg lighter.

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Jeroensurf said..

Thatspec said..
forum.progressionproject.com/t/opinions-no-limitz-v2-especially-vs-new-f-one-hm-14-mast/2886/67

That is a great read, tons of info to sort through.

Regardless of whether you believe thickness or chord length has the greatest impact on drag (my gut says they're about equal factors), neither the NL or the new Cedrus can compete with the the Allure or Phantom masts. They (NL & Cedrus) are just "good" in the drag department and a slight step up in performance from stock manufacturers masts. They 'might' be stiffer but is that stiffness of noticeable benefit?

I think that is very much depending on your weight.Someone who is like 50-60 kg can get away with a less stiff mast to get the same feel as I do with my 95kg (and slowly shrinking).I tried the 14mm Fone mast and it is okay, but I feel it bending and twisting allover the place. That inflicts with steering and control.A local I had a chat with last week didn't notice that at all with the mast.....but he was 35kg lighter.

What front wing? Some fone foils are very loose and extremely responsive and if your not familiar with the setup it's would be hard to decipher anything. Fone 14mm is very stiff. It's as stiff or stiffer than anything I have felt on the beach. In the progression discussion Adam compares it to the no limits v2. Cedrus will be noticeably stiffer but not much else.