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Scotty Mac said...

CANT WAIT TILL THIS THREAD ENDS.......

Yeah, it's called Armagedon, Judgement day, Big Wednesday(hang-on that's a surfing movie), the end is nigh, blah, blah, blah.....

Quick joke - What did the agnostic, insomniac, dyslexic lay in bed at night thinking?

Answer: Is there a Dog!

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MavericK040 said...

both arguments have there facts and flaws, it was at this point that i came to the conclusion that - it doesn't really matter how we got here the fact is were here.

were here and we need to do the best we can with what we have.

exactly, as long as you have good values focus on being here rather than wasting time focusing on where you are going when you are not here.

If I was a god i'd want everyone to go about living a carefree existance rather than worshipping me, having good values and morals while you are here is what religion should focus on (knowing the religious people I do they seem to have missed that part) not scare mongering you into parting with you're tithe. You ever want to see ferrari's, porshe's, bently's, maserati's, audi r8's etc all in one place outside of a car show visit the carpark of those that run the catholic church.

If you don't think this is a valid argument look at kids going to school, some religious schools don't teach evolution. When I went to a public school the religious student's were regularly excused from science. Why the one thing designed for the purpose of explaining the natural world might upset someone? It's similar to the japanese just skipping 1935-1945 from their history.

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sausage said...

<snip> In saying this though I still believe you should respect people's beliefs, regardless of how hairbrained, idiotic, fanatical, or downright weird they may be. It just sh1ts me when they try to impose those beliefs onto all and sundry - <snip>

Exactly!! Thankyou.

Now of course, if schools and the science community believed the same, that we should not impose out beliefs on others, they'd have to take some bits out of all the texts (the below evolutionary principles were disproved 20yrs + ago and still remain in the schoolbooks). I know some of the above posters will switch off here cos if i disagree with evolution i must be a Sun morning door knocker weirdo but oh well why not....even though I expect they will not read it.

(1) stalactites / stalagtites take thousands of years to form. Bzzz... wrong. Seen in 100 yar old mines and even on water pipes under buildings in cities. But still listed in the texts we give to our kids.


(2) fossilisation takes thousands of years. Bzzz.... wrong. Fossilised hats and wooden tool handles found in mines. But still listed in the texts we give to our kids.


(3) now this one is important: a lot of evolutionary theory has relied upon this one.... Sedimentary layers in rock or dirt take thousands - millions of years to form. THEREFORE if we find a fossil in a lower layer it must be waaay older (it could not have co-existed with species found in higher layers a million years later, or it must be a precursor to the ones higher up, like moneys and half human looking monkey things in different layers. Must be a progression right??).

Well guess what? There are countless examples of fossilised whole trees standing up, through many different deep layers of earth, which any evolutionist would have said were 1000's years old stata (if he wasn't shown the vertical trees!). There are also fossilised (large) animals with their head in one layer and a$$ in another. The evolutionists ignore those examples. What, did half a tree fossilise, and the rest kept growing until the next layer was dumped on it 1000 yrs later? Were these discoveries published in mainsteam scientific journals? No way, it would upset the apple cart.

Now there is just 2 examples that are downright disproven, yet the science community still imposes their beliefs on us. And a 3rd that is pretty sus, and still imposed on us.

I can go on but I'll bore you with proven facts that point against evolution.
The evolutionists however have no facts. Big statement? Indeed it is. bloke in the USA offered $250,000 to anyone who can offer scientifi proof as to evolution. 10 yrs ago and the money is still unlcaimed.
Evolution is a theory with a sh!tload of evidence against it, and evey time negative evidence comes up it is not reported in the journals. Wonder why.....

1) Any scientist with half a brain would assume that limestone formation is dependant upon the flow of water and concentration of minerals present. Their formation explains evolution how?

2) Chemical transformations have a large number of factors, typically fossilisation is rare (on a per organism fossilised basis) and takes a long time in conditions typically found in an unaltered world.

3) Sedimentary layers can form in a day dependant upon conditions ie volcano, glacier, earth quake, plate shift and can be disrupted just as easily (im sure a geologist can correct me here). Of course that outdated method is incorrect... in africa we find elephant at layer 26, in america we find T-Rex in layer 27 they must have co-existed? It is when both occur in a layer together you have some argument to be investigated further by carbon dating which has been the tool used now since well before i was born.

Mark we have progressed past Darwin, there is much science way beyond the archaeic methods you have described. I don't know if you read Scientific journals but if something does not make it into an "official" scientific publication it has not carried enough weight to do so. It has nothing to do with disagreeing with current theories, in fact there is nothing science loves more as it keeps people in business.

Speaking of the world only being 6000 years old, odd that carbon dating can date stuff up to 60,000 years old. Maybe god wasn't born then [}:)]

Wikipedia:

Young Earth creationism (YEC) is the religious belief that Heaven, Earth, and life on Earth were created by a direct act of God dating between 6,000[1] and 10,000 years ago. Its adherents are those Christians and Jews[2] who believe that God created the Earth in six 24-hour days, taking the Hebrew text of Genesis as a literal account. Some adherents believe that existing evidence in the natural world today supports a strict interpretation of scriptural creation as historical fact. Those adherents believe that the scientific evidence supporting evolution, geological uniformitarianism, or other theories which are at odds with a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation account, is either flawed or misinterpreted.[3]

Many Young Earth creationists (YECs) are active in the development of creation science, an endeavor that holds that the events associated with supernatural creation can be evidenced and modelled through an interpretation of the scientific method. This has led to the establishment of a number of Young Earth Creation Science organizations such as the Institute for Creation Research and the Creation Research Society.

YECs claim that the lack of support for a Young Earth theory in professional science journals or among professional science organizations is due to discrimination and censorship.[4][5][6][7] However, the overwhelming scientific consensus is that YEC claims have no scientific basis. For example, a statement by 68 national and international science academies lists the following as evidence-based facts, established by numerous observations and independently derived experimental results from a multitude of scientific disciplines, without any contradiction from scientific evidence: that the Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old and has shown continuing change; that life appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago, and has subsequently taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve; and that the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicates their common primordial origin.

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Scotty Mac said...

CANT WAIT TILL THIS THREAD ENDS.......

Mark Australia really has no life. Go sailing nerd LOL

An atheist was walking through the woods.
'What majestic trees!
'What powerful rivers!
'What beautiful animals!
He said to himself.

As he was walking alongside the river,he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him.
He turned to look. He saw a 7-foot grizzly bear charge towards him.

He ran as fast as he could up a path. He looked over his shoulder & saw the bear closing in.
He looked again & the bear was even closer.
He tripped & fell on the ground.

He rolled over to pick himself up but saw the bear was right on top of him, reaching for him with his left paw & raising his right paw to strike him.

At that instant the Atheist cried out,
'Oh my God!'
Time Stopped.
The bear froze.
The forest was silent.
As a bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky.
'You deny my existence for all these years, teach others I don't exist & even credit creation to cosmic accident.'
'Do you expect me to help you out of this predicament?
Am I to count you as a believer?

The atheist looked directly into the light, 'It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly ask you to treat me as a Christian now, but perhaps you could make the BEAR a Christian'?

'Very well,' said the voice.
The light went out. The sounds of the forest resumed. The bear dropped his right paw, brought both paws together, bowed his head & spoke:

'Lord bless this food, which I am about to receive from thy bounty through Christ our Lord, Amen.'






Artificial Intelligence Is NO Match for Natural Stupidity.

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Mark _australia said...

sausage said...

<snip> In saying this though I still believe you should respect people's beliefs, regardless of how hairbrained, idiotic, fanatical, or downright weird they may be. It just sh1ts me when they try to impose those beliefs onto all and sundry - <snip>

Exactly!! Thankyou.

Now of course, if schools and the science community believed the same, that we should not impose out beliefs on others, they'd have to take some bits out of all the texts (the below evolutionary principles were disproved 20yrs + ago and still remain in the schoolbooks). I know some of the above posters will switch off here cos if i disagree with evolution i must be a Sun morning door knocker weirdo but oh well why not....even though I expect they will not read it.

(1) stalactites / stalagtites take thousands of years to form. Bzzz... wrong. Seen in 100 yar old mines and even on water pipes under buildings in cities. But still listed in the texts we give to our kids.


(2) fossilisation takes thousands of years. Bzzz.... wrong. Fossilised hats and wooden tool handles found in mines. But still listed in the texts we give to our kids.


(3) now this one is important: a lot of evolutionary theory has relied upon this one.... Sedimentary layers in rock or dirt take thousands - millions of years to form. THEREFORE if we find a fossil in a lower layer it must be waaay older (it could not have co-existed with species found in higher layers a million years later, or it must be a precursor to the ones higher up, like moneys and half human looking monkey things in different layers. Must be a progression right??).

Well guess what? There are countless examples of fossilised whole trees standing up, through many different deep layers of earth, which any evolutionist would have said were 1000's years old stata (if he wasn't shown the vertical trees!). There are also fossilised (large) animals with their head in one layer and a$$ in another. The evolutionists ignore those examples. What, did half a tree fossilise, and the rest kept growing until the next layer was dumped on it 1000 yrs later? Were these discoveries published in mainsteam scientific journals? No way, it would upset the apple cart.

Now there is just 2 examples that are downright disproven, yet the science community still imposes their beliefs on us. And a 3rd that is pretty sus, and still imposed on us.

I can go on but I'll bore you with proven facts that point against evolution.
The evolutionists however have no facts. Big statement? Indeed it is. bloke in the USA offered $250,000 to anyone who can offer scientifi proof as to evolution. 10 yrs ago and the money is still unlcaimed.
Evolution is a theory with a sh!tload of evidence against it, and evey time negative evidence comes up it is not reported in the journals. Wonder why.....

So what are you saying Mark? - that the world is only 6000 years old

Can't speak for Mark but most Christians do not believe that earth is only 6000 years old.

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Wet Willy said...

And Suzie, "Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist" is the lamest one yet!! Sorry!! This applies equally to the Easter Bunny, and every other mythical character ever described.

So Willy are you saying that if you can't see it, it doesn't exist?

When someone mentioned "single cell organisms", I thought this topic had finally returned to wavesailing!

Seriously folks .. before you get all cranky over each other (religious topics tend to do that), we all need to return to talking about wavesailing.

There are a bazillion other websites where you can discuss whether a dog exists (sorry, I'm dislexic), and you should visit them to continue the discussion.

Thanking you.

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Leech said...

Can't speak for Mark but most Christians do not believe that earth is only 6000 years old.

Wet Willy said...

And Suzie, "Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist" is the lamest one yet!! Sorry!! This applies equally to the Easter Bunny, and every other mythical character ever described.

So Willy are you saying that if you can't see it, it doesn't exist?

C'mon Willy

Everyone knows the Easter Bunny is invisable and is the major shareholder in ur business, Willy Wonkas industries....

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laurie said...

When someone mentioned "single cell organisms", I thought this topic had finally returned to wavesailing!

Seriously folks .. before you get all cranky over each other (religious topics tend to do that), we all need to return to talking about wavesailing.

There are a bazillion other websites where you can discuss whether a dog exists (sorry, I'm dislexic), and you should visit them to continue the discussion.

Thanking you.

was someone getting cranky?
but this seems to be getting lots of views, so some must find it worthwhile.
there's more to the life of a wavesailor that just waves.

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laurie said...

When someone mentioned "single cell organisms", I thought this topic had finally returned to wavesailing!

Seriously folks .. before you get all cranky over each other (religious topics tend to do that), we all need to return to talking about wavesailing.

There are a bazillion other websites where you can discuss whether a dog exists (sorry, I'm dislexic), and you should visit them to continue the discussion.

Thanking you.

Amen brother - and on the seventh day Laurie locked this thread and sat down and had a coldie.

I sort of imagine God looks like Clint Eastwood (only with a beard though)

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Leech said...

Can't speak for Mark but most Christians do not believe that earth is only 6000 years old.

Wet Willy said...

And Suzie, "Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist" is the lamest one yet!! Sorry!! This applies equally to the Easter Bunny, and every other mythical character ever described.

So Willy are you saying that if you can't see it, it doesn't exist?

Do you think that's what I'm saying?

What I'm saying is, "Just because you can't see God, doesn't mean He doesn't exist" doesn't exactly count as much of an argument in favour of his existence, does it?

However, I agree that you can't assume something doesn't exist just because you can't see it. I've got something in my pocket right now, and you can't see it, can you?

Suzie said you can't see the wind, but you know it's there. But that's different -you can feel it, or see it's effects, or measure it in some way. If you couldn't feel it, see it's effects (eg clouds moving, flags waving, whitecaps etc), at all, then you might well assume there was no wind.

If you told me there was a strange substance called "Eckywambongus" and it was really powerful, I wouldn't just believe you unconditionally. I'd really expect you to be able to measure it, see, feel, or otherwise sense it in some way, or see some effect which is definitely caused by Eckywambongus, and can't be attributed to something else. Or else why should I believe in it?

So you can't actually see God, but some people look at the universe and assume they are seeing the result of God's handiwork, and they take this as proof of His existence. But you are just seeing an amazing universe; there is no direct or necessary reason why this has to be the work of a God. It could have evolved naturally, it might have always existed, and always been changing; in fact it could have been made by Santa's Elves for all we know. (I'm not suggesting that the latter is the case, but I wouldn't give it much less credence than the God theory)

there is no way santas elves could have possibly created anything......they are too busy wrapping presents for next year!.......and laurie butt out please, this thread is for serious discussion!

no worries!



have a nice day!

hmmm "a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day"according to that same book. Could it be that a creative DAY is a longer time period than ours?

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choco said...

Artificial Intelligence Is NO Match for Natural Stupidity.

Thats a good one for the "one liners" thread.

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Wet Willy said...

Leech said...

Can't speak for Mark but most Christians do not believe that earth is only 6000 years old.

Wet Willy said...

And Suzie, "Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist" is the lamest one yet!! Sorry!! This applies equally to the Easter Bunny, and every other mythical character ever described.

So Willy are you saying that if you can't see it, it doesn't exist?

Do you think that's what I'm saying?

What I'm saying is, "Just because you can't see God, doesn't mean He doesn't exist" doesn't exactly count as much of an argument in favour of his existence, does it?

However, I agree that you can't assume something doesn't exist just because you can't see it. I've got something in my pocket right now, and you can't see it, can you?

Suzie said you can't see the wind, but you know it's there. But that's different -you can feel it, or see it's effects, or measure it in some way. If you couldn't feel it, see it's effects (eg clouds moving, flags waving, whitecaps etc), at all, then you might well assume there was no wind.

If you told me there was a strange substance called "Eckywambongus" and it was really powerful, I wouldn't just believe you unconditionally. I'd really expect you to be able to measure it, see, feel, or otherwise sense it in some way, or see some effect which is definitely caused by Eckywambongus, and can't be attributed to something else. Or else why should I believe in it?

So you can't actually see God, but some people look at the universe and assume they are seeing the result of God's handiwork, and they take this as proof of His existence. But you are just seeing an amazing universe; there is no direct or necessary reason why this has to be the work of a God. It could have evolved naturally, it might have always existed, and always been changing; in fact it could have been made by Santa's Elves for all we know. (I'm not suggesting that the latter is the case, but I wouldn't give it much less credence than the God theory)

The problem with science is that it can only deal with what can be seen, tasted, touched, heard or smelt.

God doesn't fit into the scientific model therefore it is not possible to "prove" his existence through science.

Science is great for uncovering and learning more about the marvels of his works, but then again it can't prove that they are his works (or that they are not).

If science was able to provide all the answers I'd be a Scienctian but unfortunately science is limited.

If you seek God you will find him. But seek him humbly, God doesn't tolerate arrogance.

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It violates the laws of thermodynamics / entropy (things tend towards DISorder, not become more ordered)

Sorry. But it doesn't

You are missing a small but important bit about it being a closed system.

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Leech said...
The problem with science is that it can only deal with what can be seen, tasted, touched, heard or smelt.

If science was able to provide all the answers I'd be a Scienctian but unfortunately science is limited.

If you seek God you will find him. But seek him humbly, God doesn't tolerate arrogance.

Leech you need to take a closer look at science if that is what you believe.

Science is evolving like everything else, it's impossible to have all the answer in a day or 3000 years for that matter. Sorry but you have to have an open mind for science yet be critical of your own and others work.

Why doesn't god tolerate something he created? Hopefully he isn't so quick to judge/mistake arrogance as you are.

God must be real - he/she was on the Simpsons.

Boy there seems to be a lot of god lovin Flanderers out in Seabreeze land!

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Leech said...

The problem with science is that it can only deal with what can be seen, tasted, touched, heard or smelt.

For the other stuff, we have philosophy and mathematics.

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God doesn't fit into the scientific model therefore it is not possible to "prove" his existence through science.

Science is great for uncovering and learning more about the marvels of his works, but then again it can't prove that they are his works (or that they are not).

So at least we got that part straight.

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If science was able to provide all the answers I'd be a Scienctian but unfortunately science is limited.

If you seek God you will find him. But seek him humbly, God doesn't tolerate arrogance.

Now HOW the HELL could you possibly know that?



***

Here are 3 questions for you:

1) Where does the universe come from (or "how did it get here")?
2) Does God really exist?
3) What happens to us after we die?

I put it to you that probably NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON IN THE WHOLE WORLD knows the answers to these questions, although many think they do.

What do you think?

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Wet Willy said...

Suzie said you can't see the wind, but you know it's there. But that's different -you can feel it, or see it's effects, or measure it in some way. If you couldn't feel it, see it's effects (eg clouds moving, flags waving, whitecaps etc), at all, then you might well assume there was no wind.

If you told me there was a strange substance called "Eckywambongus" and it was really powerful, I wouldn't just believe you unconditionally. I'd really expect you to be able to measure it, see, feel, or otherwise sense it in some way, or see some effect which is definitely caused by Eckywambongus, and can't be attributed to something else. Or else why should I believe in it?

So you can't actually see God, but some people look at the universe and assume they are seeing the result of God's handiwork, and they take this as proof of His existence. But you are just seeing an amazing universe; there is no direct or necessary reason why this has to be the work of a God. It could have evolved naturally, it might have always existed, and always been changing; in fact it could have been made by Santa's Elves for all we know. (I'm not suggesting that the latter is the case, but I wouldn't give it much less credence than the God theory)

John 15:26

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Greenroom said...

Wet Willy said...

Suzie said you can't see the wind, but you know it's there. But that's different -you can feel it, or see it's effects, or measure it in some way. If you couldn't feel it, see it's effects (eg clouds moving, flags waving, whitecaps etc), at all, then you might well assume there was no wind.

If you told me there was a strange substance called "Eckywambongus" and it was really powerful, I wouldn't just believe you unconditionally. I'd really expect you to be able to measure it, see, feel, or otherwise sense it in some way, or see some effect which is definitely caused by Eckywambongus, and can't be attributed to something else. Or else why should I believe in it?

So you can't actually see God, but some people look at the universe and assume they are seeing the result of God's handiwork, and they take this as proof of His existence. But you are just seeing an amazing universe; there is no direct or necessary reason why this has to be the work of a God. It could have evolved naturally, it might have always existed, and always been changing; in fact it could have been made by Santa's Elves for all we know. (I'm not suggesting that the latter is the case, but I wouldn't give it much less credence than the God theory)

John 15:26

15.26 is that the time john left the message on your phone

Here's a challenge for all those arguing

For the Believers in God
Prove beyond a doubt that god exists

For those who do not believe in God
Prove beyond a doubt that god does not exist

This proof must be backed up by hard and fast physical evidence (no theories or hearsay) proving for once and for all that God does or does not exist.




To make it easy on you all I'll give you the answer now

Neither side can prove beyond a doubt that God does or does not exist.


So what we have in reality is conflicting BELIEFS in either the existence or non existence of God.

Nobody is right, nobody is wrong.

We only have our perception in what is the right or wrong belief.


Here is a thought to ponder on realities.

What is reality?
My reality is my perception of the world.
Your reality is your perception of the world
Your reality is different to mine.
If my reality is different to your reality
Which is the right and which is wrong reality?
To the schizophrenic who hears the voices in their head, those voices are real yet we can't hear them.
Who is to say that you are not all a part of my twisted imagination or I part of yours.

There is no spoon !

Anyone actually been wave sailing of late ?
I think all this DOG talk may have offended Huey !

Maybe we should be preparing some sacrificial lambs

What was it the Roman's used to do with them ?
Could be a way to finally end this thread once and for all.

Anyone got a hungry lion or three at their disposal ?

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WindWarrior said...

There is no spoon !

exacerly

Mobile Church anyone ?

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Susie said...

hmmm "a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day"according to that same book. Could it be that a creative DAY is a longer time period than ours?

Yep - time dilation. It's all explained in the Theory of Relativity. If you move very fast time slows down... umm for you, not a slow moving observer. So if the labeller that called it a "day" was hiking along at close to the speed of light he could have seen God's millions of years of handiwork happen in a day.

Gravity has a similar effect but it has to be absolutely massively massive. So for the fun of it let's hypothesise about the conditions just after the Big Bang.

What do you know - enormous amounts of matter synthesising out of energy (presumably). So dense that for the first 300,000 years it's just a chaotic plasma like the inside of the sun but a tad hotter, a nuclear explosion that lasts for 300,000 years. If you were there that 300,000 years would have been quite a bit shorter because under the influence of an absolutely staggering amount of mass time would have slowed down so your experience would have sped up. Voila - 100,000 years in a day .... ummm maybe

Don't quote me. I really don't understand this stuff. Just typing in tongues