Wow dave, you really are wasted on this forum

NotWal I won't quote that as the quotes are just getting too long.

Please tell the advantage to survaival that may be caused by an area of light sensitive cells? The animal cannot see, it is not receiving any information that would help it hunt better and thus survive in order to propagate further animals with a similar mutation.

That is what I mean: for a complex organism it does not matter how you imagine an organ may have started out because that first mutation would invariably NOT be a survival advantage.

Natural selection explains what we have observed in nature such as the moths changing colour or long haired dogs in cold places. It does not explain where we came from.

Your courtroom example... when they present DNA evidence it is stated as
"there is 1 chance in 10 billion that this DNA does not belong to the accused". It is accepted as fact that it could not be anyone else's DNA.
The probablility of these chance mutations ganging up to make a useful organ is in the realm of 1 in a billion or 1 in a hundred billion.... and we think it is likely...... so as a society we thing that 1 in 10 billion is not a chance in hell, but evolution is great.

wtf has this to do with wave sailing

If you go to church you miss out sailing sundays
if you dont go to church you get to sail sundays with less people

I dont care what people believe in just dont come knocking on my door telling me about it when im leaving for a sail

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Mark _australia said...

NotWal ...
Please tell the advantage to survaival that may be caused by an area of light sensitive cells? The animal cannot see, it is not receiving any information that would help it hunt better and thus survive in order to propagate further animals with a similar mutation.

I should have thought that it would be advantageous to be able to detect light. You could tell night from day. You could detect threatening shadows. You could detect rates of variation between light and dark, movement in other words.

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That is what I mean: for a complex organism it does not matter how you imagine an organ may have started out because that first mutation would invariably NOT be a survival advantage.

Two things 1) To tell if it would confer a survival advantage or not requires the application of a little imagination. 2) The engine of evolution is accidental variation. A variation may be benign, neither conferring an advantage nor costing much. DNA itself has large amounts of gibberish code that does nothing but is nonetheless perpetuated in the genome.

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Natural selection explains what we have observed in nature such as the moths changing colour or long haired dogs in cold places. It does not explain where we came from.

The theory of evolution including natural selection beautifully explains how, with no more than the known laws of nature, all organisms evolved from a very simple beginning. Evolution is a fact. The details remain debatable. There are holes in the story but the evidence for it is overwhelming.

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Your courtroom example... when they present DNA evidence it is stated as
"there is 1 chance in 10 billion that this DNA does not belong to the accused". It is accepted as fact that it could not be anyone else's DNA.
The probablility of these chance mutations ganging up to make a useful organ is in the realm of 1 in a billion or 1 in a hundred billion.... and we think it is likely...... so as a society we thing that 1 in 10 billion is not a chance in hell, but evolution is great.

Development is not a case of chucking a few grams of amino acids in a pot and giving it a good stir and hoping for a viable organism to jump out. This is what you imply when you quote these astronomical probabilities. It all happens incrementally by small steps, compounding complexity.

Compounding complexity is not an intuitive thing but if you imagine how computer programs for example are made of a small set of very simple processor instructions assembled into small sub functions that are in turn put together into library functions that are the basic components the programmer uses to compile a program- or how a child acquiring knowledge starts with nothing more than ears and eyes and curiosity learns to read write and windsurf, well windsurf anyway, you can begin to see how improbable it can seem that such simple systems can generate such complexity, and how distantly removed the finished product appears after just a few steps. How much MORE improbable does it seem for something as complex as living organisms to evolve from amino acids.

Nice talking to you Mark. It seems the natives are restless. You might want to continue by pm.

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Mark _australia said...



Please tell the advantage to survaival that may be caused by an area of light sensitive cells? The animal cannot see, it is not receiving any information that would help it hunt better and thus survive in order to propagate further animals with a similar mutation.

Come on Mark, you can do better than that. The normal example trotted out to demonstrate "Irreducable complexity" is this one:

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The flagella of certain bacteria constitute a molecular motor requiring the interaction of about 40 complex protein parts, and the absence of any one of these proteins causes the flagella to fail to function. Behe holds that the flagellum "engine" is irreducibly complex because if we try to reduce its complexity by positing an earlier and simpler stage of its evolutionary development, we get an organism which functions improperly.

In fact mammalian eyes are a good argument for evolution. What designer in their right mind would put the blood vessels IN FRONT of the light receptors, blocking some of the light? Not to mention the biggest design flaw of humans - the knee

At least He got it right when designing the eyes of squid [}:)]
pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/11/denton-vs-squid.html

I'm out I think we agree to disagree

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mkseven said...

Leech let's face it you probably sin just like all the other followers so none of us are going to heaven anyway.

Hi mkseven, I definitely sin, pretty much constantly. If I didn't sin I wouldn't need Christianity.

The promise that I cling to is that even though i'm a dreadful sinner and the consequences of my sins are that I deserve to die; Jesus was perfect and never sinned but he died a sinner's death. He took all our sins on himself and paid the price - total death and separation from God. He wore our punishment then turned it on its head, rose from the dead and paved the way for men and women to get to heaven.

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mkseven said...

If you believe fine just don't push your brand of BS on the rest of us.

Sorry if you think I'm pushy. I thought I was just putting forward my beliefs and opinions on a public forum. I don't think I've insisted that you should believe what I do. You can choose to believe what you like - that's one of the great things about living in Australia!

Maybe you were talking about other people who are pushy.

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gazza said...

wtf has this to do with wave sailing

If you go to church you miss out sailing sundays
if you dont go to church you get to sail sundays with less people

Plenty of time after church for the Sunday sesh, gazza

Personnally I like the graphics best viewed from a distance.
What does it matter once the board has delaminated and gone all soft anyhow.
Huey is my Jesus and he sure Loves Me.

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Gestalt said...
snip Youtube links

Que?

Whats this? interval?
I like the third one.

Ah The Cure
Love 'em. Robert Smith is definately one trippy dude. Met him when The Cure came to Perth in 90 or 91 I think?
Brings me back to early high school years. Making out with chicks behind the library

hey notwal,

thought i'd contribute with some songs about faith. i was going to post some bill hicks but thought it might get taken the wrong way. i reckon you'd like bill hicks dave.


hi greenroom,

to say i am a huge cure fan would understate the truth. i am a little envious that you have met robert. i kind of put it in the never meet your heroes basket due to fear of dissapointment.

have been to 3 gigs, 1 in germany, 2 in oz and the last one was the last tour downunder. one of the best live bands i've seen. every gig was different and the last one was 3 solid hours of their greatest hits. awesome!!!!!! the other stand out was in germany where they did a really fast guitar version of killing an arab. i managed to buy a bootleg of the german gig i was at. reckon i'll play that for today. hehe . nerd cure joke.

anyways.

i reckon the graphics are no more than a postmodern statement on a board.

cheers.

Hey Gestie, I didnt really get into The Cure until year 8. I did an art scholarship and a kid from Melbourne moved to Perth to study at the same school. He was a huge Robert Smith fan! He wore the tight black jeans, trench coats, shaved half his head and sometimes wore make up. He got me into wearing eight hole Dock Martin boots. I have a pair now actually. Anywho I think it was the album Disintegration they toured for. After the show we went outside to the back loading docks near the stage door. A group off us were standing around hoping to catch a glimpse of Robert Smith when a limo pulled up from around the back and guess who got out of the car to say hello to us!... Robert Smith! We shook hands and stood around for a few minutes talking about the show. He thanked us, got back in the limo and drove away. We were all gob smacked. Couldnt believe he actually stopped the limo to get out and talk to us! I think it was probably because we all looked like Robert Smith replicas dressed in black with black lips and eyes.

god works in really strange (wierd) ways when gestalt and greenroom have a nice online conversation together!!!!!

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greenleader said...

god works in really strange (wierd) ways when gestalt and greenroom have a nice online conversation together!!!!!

So what your saying is that there is a God!?

yep, its proven beyond doubt.

thanx for coming.....nothing left to see on this thread anymore.

(greeny you're a cack!)

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greenleader said...

thanx for coming.....nothing left to see on this thread anymore.

Release the hounds plague![}:)]

This has all gone far out man

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Greenroom said...

Spearsy said...

Greenroom said...

What makes you think you are right?

Common sense.

Common sense tells me that everything in the universe has a cause. Plants come from seeds. Birds hatch from eggs. Nothing in this world brings itself into being. If we trace everything in the universe back to its source, we find that there must be something that existed before anything else came to be. Something that gave rise to the whole chain of being.

Common sense also tells me that where there is design there must be a designer. Look at a sail. Could something so technical occur by chance? Of course not! And the universe is a cazillion times more complex than a sail! The design of the universe points to a Designer.

Can I just jump in here for a moment? Greenroom's initial points sumed up a large part of the creationist argument, and I'd like to answer them.

-What if the universe has just always, always, always been here? Perhaps there was no beginning point. It's hard for us humans to get our heads around such a concept, but you can't say it's not possible. And if there was no beginning point, then there was no creator.

-Also, seeing the things around us for how "technical" they are often makes people believe in a creator. It's a very human way of looking at things. We wonder how flowers and birds and trees "work" and realise that if we wanted to make something similar, it would take a vast amount of technical knowledge, planning, and testing. And we realise that we couldn't even come close to matching the wonders of nature. So therefore, we conclude that it (the universe) must have been designed by a vastly superior being.

BUUUUT, another way of looking at the universe is that it WASN'T designed at all, but rather, it's an organic, free-flowing, adapting thing, which has only arrived at it's present state after untold aeons of evolving, of energy flowing this way and that way, suns being born and dying, etc etc...

If you are willing to accept the possibility that the universe has always existed in some form, then you could also accept that there has always been some form of energy, and that life either evolved painstakingly from all the long-term cosmic goings on, or, possibly, that life, in some form has always existed also.

Either way, no need for a creator.

BTW, excellent work, NotWal...anyone who red thumbs your informed, insightful, logical and well-written posts obviously has some more evolving to do!

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Leech said......
Jesus was perfect and never sinned

-Leech, with all due respect, please give us one good reason to believe this.

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He took all our sins on himself

-Please give even a half-baked reason why anyone should believe this.

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He wore our punishment then turned it on its head, rose from the dead and paved the way for men and women to get to heaven.

-Is there any remote inkling of a reason anywhere that this might be even vaguely true? And HOW WOULD ANYBODY KNOW?????

You all know there is somthing far more greater than we dare want to meet, but iff you dare then please share your experiances so that we can all join in and fight together as one.

maybe one day greenroom and i can find a dark corner somewhere, count our doc holes and put on make up......

OR!!!!!!!!!!!!

in the words of stipe the philosopher.





just jokes greenroom.... share the stoke!

Arghhh, Gestalt, please stop with that music, you're killing me...try this instead







Take two and call me in the morning!

You and I Guestie are two peas in a pod
But I think I am...

some thoughts from uncle nick, aunty kylie and shane mcgowan, bless em.

Don't know what this convo has to do with wavesailing but.....I would rather live forever on the earth where I can windsurf and love my surroundings and the sea than to go to heaven and do.......what?

And....

If everyone loved their neighbor as themselves there wouldn't be any wars

i'll love my neighbours once they stop their cats from doing poos in my yard