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Gestalt said..



that article is inline with what happened at burrum.

jmetcher said..

Gestalt said..

in less than 8 knots you'll find a one design able to beat a raceboard as well.

<blows coffee out nose>

Sorry, I know this is a formula thread, but I can't help myself. Which of these three looks like it might be going faster in this gentle breeze on Botany Bay? Hint - the raceboard is the one in the middle.

To be fair you have to take sailor abilities into account , at burrum, peter and Dennis are to very good windsurf sailors , and not to sound disrespectful but John is not of the same std on race board . if Leo was there it would of been interesting

Formula gets people talking. I love it.
Sounds like you already have a few keen formula guys. Just going back to stuff Sean was saying. Sean is very modest and as we know he is a world class sailor and he is very kind to us guys in the NSW fleet. If you line up with Sean or Luke don't feel dis heartened, we don't and they can both beat us by up to a leg in front. We still love formula and aren't about to quit it.

You only need one or two guys to train with. If I go out on Sydney Harbour I text a few guys and we go. This is how I would start the formula scene. Keep it cheap and simple. After a while have a fun weekend regatta from redcliff and one from RQ. and after another period when everybody is feeling more confident maybe one weekend at harvey bay or yeppoon. After this come you will be ready for the 3 day National title regatta. In NSW our races cater for beginners in that when you are learning the techniques you only do one lap and then finish. This way you don't hold up the days racing. After a while when you are skilled enough to race tactically with the fleet you do two laps.

Here is a video I film. Sean was on a borrowed Patrik board and a old gaastra with number AUS20

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bc said..

Gestalt said..

that article is inline with what happened at burrum.

jmetcher said..

Gestalt said..

in less than 8 knots you'll find a one design able to beat a raceboard as well.

<blows coffee out nose>

Sorry, I know this is a formula thread, but I can't help myself. Which of these three looks like it might be going faster in this gentle breeze on Botany Bay? Hint - the raceboard is the one in the middle.

To be fair you have to take sailor abilities into account , at burrum, peter and Dennis are to very good windsurf sailors , and not to sound disrespectful but John is not of the same std on race board . if Leo was there it would of been interesting

yes it would have been interesting. maybe next year some more raceboard guys will take the plunge.

interesting as well was that tibor won a few races on his slalom gear against the longboards. and the wind was real light. I remember years ago watching Steve A flog everyone at the lake at a course race. he was on slalom gear but it was more like 12-15knots. burrum was 8-12 knots during the course racing. 14 at a pinch.

^ Interesting? as in 'can Leo lap them?' sort of interesting?

Imagine if Tibor was on his formula gear

I reckon the race board gear has got allot faster. With the extra volume in the boards with bigger keels and skeps pushing 60cm the upwind lift is there. Add a formula or slalom style sail to the mix like a 9.5 Reflex in 14 knots and your honking.

Best as has been suggested any benchmarking needs similar sailor ability which is tricky.

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sausage said..

SeanAUS120 said..

brynoz said...
What's Elitist about sailing a door!

Mine is an 170L door at 8.9kg that can do +34 knots downwind with an 11m ... Not too many doors around that high-tech ;-)

Geez you should post the session to GPSSS - it'd put you right up the top (although I notice they did theirs on flat water, with smaller sails and small fins)
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=rankings&Year=-&Tab=0&Gender=0&WeightClass=0&AgeClass=0&SpeedType=9

Sean reference was to a high wind day on Formula with Dennis Littel at Oostvoornse Meer in the Netherlands. The 34 knots was a max 2 sec speed. Dennis was > 1 knot faster.

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Steve1001 said..

At low tide (yesterday) I go down the rocks and straight into the harbour mouth. Booties advisable on the rocks for grip and cuts.

Not exactly the safest thing to do.

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John0 said..





Sailor's fin stash at the PWA Costa Brava mens slalom event yesterday - photo by John Carter.

Note: fin lengths in 0.5cm increments; various stiffness S- S--; choice of outlines ZSF and ZSL

Ok im drooling right now

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vando said...

John0 said..





Sailor's fin stash at the PWA Costa Brava mens slalom event yesterday - photo by John Carter.

Note: fin lengths in 0.5cm increments; various stiffness S- S--; choice of outlines ZSF and ZSL

Ok im drooling right now

fin stash, that's not a fin stash

thats about a $8000 dollar fins stash there

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vando said...

Steve1001 said..

At low tide (yesterday) I go down the rocks and straight into the harbour mouth. Booties advisable on the rocks for grip and cuts.

Not exactly the safest thing to do.

Yeah your right Vando. You have to be very careful and it's not recommended for first timers. I find its best to do the board and sail separately with 2 trips. And then connect them at the bottom on the little sandy beach. And only launch into the bay once there are no boats entering or exiting the harbour.

The alternative is the 100m walk in the 1ft deep water and mud hoping not to step on broken glass, fishing hooks, or stingrays.

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rrdsailor said..

jmetcher said...

Steve1001 said...

So why aren't more of us doing Formula Windsurfing?

Had the best formula sail today which got me thinking why very few do it. i have my theories buy i'd like your thoughts?

today wind was 8-15kts. Planing 100% of the time. Powered up feeling. Sail where ever I wanted in the bay. Perfect light wind kit to suit our Queensland conditions.

Well, my 2c worth...

It's perfect light wind kit - only it's not. It's just better than slalom or freeride gear. If I look back over forty years of dinghy, cat, div 2, raceboard, and formula sailing, the formula events account for about 5% of the racing and about 80% of the time spent waiting for wind.

No question, if you can pick your day, pick your angle, and pick your patch of water it's great fun. But if you plan to turn up on a given day at a given place, like a regatta or regular club racing, not always great. Just ask Cam how long it can take to make that last tack into the windward mark if the wind isn't cooperating at that precise moment. Then ask him how often the wind cooperates. Then buy the poor guy a beer for bringing up such a painful subject ;)

I love formula when it's on, but in the end I decided I wanted to get back to: turn up, go sailing, have fun. Every weekend.

Good comment and pretty much on the ball, you are pretty much guaranteed to have
a sail with a raceboard, on any given day.
Having trouble justifying owning a formula and a raceboard.

Well said and echoes my thoughts very closely. I have an Exocet formula and an R4 10.7 and I love riding it but I don't like racing it that much. It's nothing to do with the gear. The gear is fine it's the sailing conditions I sail in, it's usually quite gusty and formula gear sucks balls when there is big holes in the breeze. I understand this is part of racing and pretty much every race I've ever done on every type of craft was gusty at some point. Gusty conditions on formula annoys me more than usual because of the vast difference in speed and pointing ability when you drop off the plane. This situation is more my problem that a problem with the formula concept as even now at my age and condition I have trouble getting around my competitive nature and sailing in a lottery frustrates me. The reason I bought formula gear was because they feel awesome to sail upwind and I love doing upwind runs and then blasting downwind again. I knew all this when I bought the gear and I'm not complaining, I'm just saying this is why I don't race very often.

I also have an old raceboard, one of the last caveman's built by Ronald Reagan. It goes very well upwind and ok downwind but as soon as there is enough wind I am straight on to the formula gear. It's just more fun. In sub planning conditions the raceboard murders the formula board upwind and in gusty conditions upwind, well I haven't tried it yet but at marmong where I sail I think it would be interesting. I used to do the old raceboard class with 7.5's and 8.5 on the old longboard in no wind and it was medieval torture. The pumping duels were brutal and relentless. Formula sailing may have it's limitations but its a gargantuan improvement over the old days.

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da vecta said..

^ Interesting? as in 'can Leo lap them?' sort of interesting?

Interesting in that Leo would be doing loops and stuff ?

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sausage said..

Geez you should post the session to GPSSS - it'd put you right up the top (although I notice they did theirs on flat water, with smaller sails and small fins)
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=rankings&Year=-&Tab=0&Gender=0&WeightClass=0&AgeClass=0&SpeedType=9

I was actually sailing with Dennis Littel (#2 spot) that day in Holland and posted a 2-sec around 1 knot slower than Dennis. I was pretty new to doing GPS speedsailing at the time so I didn't realise how many runs you really needed to do to get a good 10-sec average. If I'd done a few more runs that day I would have posted enough to get me in 3rd overall I think... Note that we were using the actual race gear we compete with, not just using 7 year old skinny formula boards with cutdown fins like all the other people getting the records are using... haha

105 replies. This is the thread that won't quit. It's been very topical, and source of debate.

Had 2 great sessions on my formula this week in the 6-12kt conditions we get a lot of this time of year. I'm hooked. Great concept for me, as it suits my sailing requirements.

Hey Sean, for someone in SE qld thinking of getting into formula, would you recommend they try formula experience or formula? It seems formula experience is alive and well in certain parts of the world, but Aust seems to be formula only?

It's disappointing that the enthusiasm on the forum for course racing (Formula) is not reflected in commitment on the water here in SE Qld.

Support for organised windsurfing events in SE Qld tanks.

Qld Raceboard Championships 3-4 May 2014 at Lake Coootharaba - 12 entries only of which 5 were RS:X sailors from RQYS.

RQYS Frostbite Regatta Day 1 24 May 2014 - Although non-members of RQYS were invited to join the racing on this Seabreeze forum , not 1 non RQYS windsurfer entered. It's a pity because there was wind with 3 races being held in 6-12knots - perfect for Raceboards. RS:X's even got planning downwind.

Icarbon I don't think the support is as bad as it looks. Remember very few of us Queensland windsurfers actually do raceboarding and formula. Those 7 raceboards at lake Cootharaba are probably half (guestimate) of the entire qld raceboard community. Why none of us went in the recent Frostbite races I don't know? I was interstate that weekend. I think Cameron and Jacob participated?

I'd estimate 90% or more of the SE qld windsurf community are into slalom, speed, bump&jump, and wave sailing, not raceboard nor formula. I'm the joke of the rigging area with my barn door or boat (raceboard). They have their competitions with GPS TC, freerace, figure 8 slalom racing etc. They're not interested in course racing, and that's cool. Each to their own.

Steve are you going to race your barn door next season

Yes, where possible.

Which races you referring to?

Anywhere we can I'm not fussy, RQ is great because its organised and you just roll up but fees will be a barrier to building interest plus races start to a schedule and not based on conditions. Bayside is great because its cheap and geared towards windsurfing. Cootharaba is great because the lake is awesome the club is very friendly just the distance is a problem. PPSC is friendly cheap but not enough room for formula.

Any committee members from Bayside reading this thread, can we set a windward mark during your slalom events for a simple windward leeward course and have seperate starts to accomodate a course racing fleet regardless of class ie raceboard/formula/rsx/techno.

Cameron, yeah I'll be in those regattas as much as possible. What about a trip interstate?

I went to the down under pro when it was at Hawks Nest, I would do a trip down there again for sure, the free formula concept is pretty cool as a way to get into the racing plus sailing in the big fleet is great.

Interesting thread

My rambling 2c - while race boards may have got faster ( Brynoz) they are not comparable to formula once its planing conditions - though I'm not sure thats what you where alluding to. Having raced alongside them a bit over the last twelve months I really don't see them as direct competitors. I'd love to own a race board but the bride says I already have too many toys

There is no shame being beaten by Tibor when it's light - they guy is a freak - and then you take into account his age. He can plane through lulls longer than your average chick flick.

As to the comments of formula racers waiting for wind 80% of the time .....this certainly hasn't been my experience and that's what SUPs are good for

Cluffy's comments re racing is a peculiarity of Marmong - summers NE have to come over a large ridge and the water state is confused by the adjoining sailing club setting their courses directly over ours

The structure of the NSW series is brilliant - 1 lap or 2 - suitable to all levels of sailor AND those who do not wish to join the arms race

Yes Formula is not for everyone - but for those who are already sailing slalom gear it's only a short step and greatly increases sailing time ( if like me sailing time is often not when it's windy)

I haven't sailed for over 2 months - not fit and an average sailor - yet today in 6-10 knots I planed for most of the time for an hour or so

Cam - good to hear the 161 is still going strong

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Steve1001 said..

105 replies. This is the thread that won't quit. It's been very topical, and source of debate.

Had 2 great sessions on my formula this week in the 6-12kt conditions we get a lot of this time of year. I'm hooked. Great concept for me, as it suits my sailing requirements.

Hey Sean, for someone in SE qld thinking of getting into formula, would you recommend they try formula experience or formula? It seems formula experience is alive and well in certain parts of the world, but Aust seems to be formula only?

Yep, talk is cheap and easy, participation numbers speak for themselves, the sport is called 'wind'surfing and its best done (and cheapest and easiest done) when its windy, with gear you shove in the back of the car. The 'gear' war and 'tech' or 'elite' side of the sport is what killed it! I'd much rather see a cheap windsurfer one design wally comp for crappy winds to promote the sport, rather than 'barn door' 11m $10k sailing.

It's great that you enjoy it, but don't push it down our throats as its past history, no one wanted it, no wants its, and most cant afford it, even if we could, we probably wouldn't bother, it was 5-10 knots today...had a great day Supping catching (trying) waves and getting a great work out, and on gear that costs not more than $1k.

For me (I'm sure I'm not alone) the 'Defi Wind' highlights windsurfing (non wave sailing) at it's best, and I think the general public see stuff like the this as great also, we should be putting energy (even talk) into organising events like this!
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Defi-Wind-2014/

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JonesySail said..

Steve1001 said..

For me (I'm sure I'm not alone) the 'Defi Wind' highlights windsurfing (non wave sailing) at it's best, and I think the general public see stuff like the this as great also, we should be putting energy (even talk) into organising events like this!
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Defi-Wind-2014/

watch this space!!

and that's all I'm going to say.

Steve

Comments like JonesySail are not helpful in supporting our great windsurfing sport in all its forms.

This is a Windsurfing forum. Pity he didn't post his Supp stuff on the Stand Up Paddle forum.

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JonesySail said..

Steve1001 said..

105 replies. This is the thread that won't quit. It's been very topical, and source of debate.

Had 2 great sessions on my formula this week in the 6-12kt conditions we get a lot of this time of year. I'm hooked. Great concept for me, as it suits my sailing requirements.

Hey Sean, for someone in SE qld thinking of getting into formula, would you recommend they try formula experience or formula? It seems formula experience is alive and well in certain parts of the world, but Aust seems to be formula only?

Yep, talk is cheap and easy, participation numbers speak for themselves, the sport is called 'wind'surfing and its best done (and cheapest and easiest done) when its windy, with gear you shove in the back of the car. The 'gear' war and 'tech' or 'elite' side of the sport is what killed it! I'd much rather see a cheap windsurfer one design wally comp for crappy winds to promote the sport, rather than 'barn door' 11m $10k sailing.

It's great that you enjoy it, but don't push it down our throats as its past history, no one wanted it, no wants its, and most cant afford it, even if we could, we probably wouldn't bother, it was 5-10 knots today...had a great day Supping catching (trying) waves and getting a great work out, and on gear that costs not more than $1k.

For me (I'm sure I'm not alone) the 'Defi Wind' highlights windsurfing (non wave sailing) at it's best, and I think the general public see stuff like the this as great also, we should be putting energy (even talk) into organising events like this!
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Defi-Wind-2014/

Bit harsh and not really constructive for the sport in general.

Formula is conducted in winds of 8 - 25knts in general, light to strong wind sailing.

It's fleet racing around a course in a variety of conditions at either club, state or national level or just free sailing upwind and downwind, for those who want this type of racing.

Like everything to compete at the top level you need to upgrade and have the best kit going, however to have fun, sail regularly and be part of a class, formula is extremely accessible, whilst it could cost $10,000 to get set up, if I need a car I don't go and buy a Porsche, there are other options. I'm certain someone could be quite competive and set up with 2nd hand 2 sails, mast, boom, board and fin for $3,000, the same cost as comparable slalom kit.

NSW has had a great scene for many years with strong local club racing available every weekend plus the state series and nationals.

Don't dismiss one great part of our sport without a full understanding or experience of what it's all about.

Btw Defi-wind is awesome but don't think we are going to see an event like this anytime soon in Aus, ledge is as close as we will have.

Cheers Ben, the 161 is a great board my son loves it, dare I say it, I think he loves it more than his slalom.

Hi Cam, I'm just saying it as it is, I'm not pumping something up that's not there to be pumped

I'm pretty safe in saying that less than 1% of windsurfers are into Formula, it's not a new thing, we are all aware if it, its great that you enjoy it more power to you go for it have fun.

My point is, it's not where the future of the sport lies, its not what 99% of windsurfers are interested in (pretty sure manufactures would say it represent as similar % of their business, I don't see the shops with racks of formula boards!).

But please, go ahead import a few containers of formula gear, get some skin in the game, and prove me and the vast majority of windsurfers wrong.

As for the SUP dig, WT? (Naish NISCO had 40+ this morning at Cotton tree, ) safe to say that's doing better than formula and windsurfing in general!

Maybe if you plugged a sail into a SUP on a 5-10knt day and taught someone to sail (gee they kind of look like a windsurfer don't they?!, instead of parading around with a million dollars of gear that you cant use until the waters a meter deep, there would be more people learning to sail/windsurf.

I have said before and I will say again the 'high end' expensive call it 'elite' end of the sport that the minority seem keen on pushing is actually not what is going to grow the sport, think the last 10 years has proven me correct.

What is good for the sport is working with sectors of the sport that
A)most people are into
B)are most likely to be picked up or seem cool/interesting to the general public, AKA potential newbies.

I'd suggest on the list of windsurfing disciplines, Formula would rate last

I'm all formula'd out....pheww...