Cost is a big thing and just the size of everything. hell of a walk at low tide too.
Generally once a slalom board is planning it will be quicker and you can plane on a slalom when its around 10knots if you have a big enough sail.
so not alot of advantage for the extra $$$$ really except maybe upwind with ya 70cm fin
each to there own i suppose.

Having sailed Formula from the beginning in Australia and continuously racing in the NSW series I have seen the highs and lows of the class.

In the early days constant evolution in the class made upgrading essential to be competitive (not saying I was).

This however had the benefit of providing cheap entry price gear for those wishing to get started.

In more recent times say the last 4 - 5 seasons the development has slowed and it has been demonstrated on many occasions older models of boards and fins still being competitive.

There are plenty of older boards more than capable of providing a great ride when just going for a free sail whilst also capable of racing well on.

Yes you do need specific booms and masts but that's just part of being able to get the most out of something, the alternative sitting on the beach, your choice.

From our series and nationals we would generally race at close to 70-80% of days we turn up for doing upto 5 races per day, which I would say is really good bang for your windsurfing buck.

From those who have taken part in the NSW series over the years I'd say the vast majority have had some very memorable races and social occasions and would be glad to do it all over again.

It's hard to understand how QLD doesn't have a similar series, it would be great to strengthen the class.

On a free sailing point I have enjoyed many hours exploring Lake Macquarie, anyoing yatchs and racing skiffs, formula boards are just another way to enjoy this great sport of ours.

Yeah spot on Vando, biggest negatives for most guys are cost and transport.

For me, i already had the 260 boom, 530 mast, and big sail for my raceboard, so getting into formula wasn't too big a cost.

Re transport, i've made it work happily enough with my ute and roofracks (maybe a trailer later on).

Agree 10kts is enough for slalom, but i find the fun starts at about 13-14kts, before that i'm struggling to not drift downwind, pumping lots to plane, and gybes are slow. Whereas the formula is nicely powered up at 10-14kts, pointing upwind easily, and can plane thru the inevitable 6 to 8kt lulls.

I'm new to windsurfing after a long break, and the spot has changed so much. I'm keen to try all the different disciplines for now. See you on the water soon.

Hey one more thing, isn't the best formula sailor in the world Steve Allen, a local Wynum boy?

Muz720, what are the wind limits for formula racing? thought i read somewhere min 6kts, max 35kts? that's a huge range? Anything else that can cancel a race? Tide, weed, chop?

I love watching the Formula at Hawks Nest and have huge respect for it. However, as mentioned it seems very 'arms racey' and still doesn't guarantee sailing. I like the tactics required for Raceboards. Mostly for me though, the Broadwater lends itself better to Raceboards.

I think the cost is pretty comparable to slalom if not cheaper. Most slalom guys would have two boards and a range of fins and sails whereas with formula one board 2 sails and one fin will get you by. The second hand market is very cheap, my son bought a 10.0m sail for $200.00 and 8.8 for around the same money, a board and fin and board bag for $400.00, he uses a mast I bought for $400.00 which covers both sails and a alloy chinook boom for $250.00. The mast and boom were brand new the sails and board SH. Thats pretty reasonable given all that gear will cover from 10-25knts. What would a slalom set up cost to cover the same wind range.

I think where the guys are coming from on cost is, they are already into slalom, and what would it cost to add formula kit. For them slalom is a given, formula is a maybe if it's not too expensive to add it to their quiver. They wouldn't give up slalom, so they wouldn't sell their slalom kit to replace it with formula kit.

So from that perspective, they think I need a new board, new boom, 1 or 2 new masts, 2 new sails, fins etc. they do the sums and come up with anywhere from 3k used to 8k new. Too much for most considering they get their slaloms going in 10-12kts anyway. Also they've heard formula doesn't go across the wind (which is 90% of their slalom sailing experience) and downwind formula is scary. Also the formula kits look massive and awkward. I'm the joke of the day in the rigging area "steve why you riding a barn door, and yacht sail?"

Queensland seems to punch well above its weight in formula. World champ, and Sean multiple Oz champ, Luke snapping at his heels. It seems we excel in the sport.

Why go formula? Jamie answered it earlier. They don't course race as well as a race board, don't reach well, so can't race in slalom. Too specific, and not a good recreational kit for all points sailing when compared to a race board.

FYI slalom is up to 10 m and an 85 cm wide board, with the PWA having an all winds racing policy with a bottom limit of 7 knots. So slalom kit is very good in the wind range you are talking about. Personally if it is under 10 knots and there is no swell I would prefer to teach my kids to sail.

"with the PWA having an all winds racing policy with a bottom limit of 7 knots" . Hmmm interesting you put that forward, I remember a recent slalom event that more than covered that bottom wind range but your comments were as follows.

Ray, I reckon the only racing will be boat races at the bar. Remember windsurfing requires WIND

The horse is dead - stop flogging it. It will still be a great arvo if Ritchie's providing the tunes and the beer is cold.

Just checked the NOR which has no minimum wind limit. So I guess the forecast is ideal??????.for a Mountain Bike Ride

Yep, there is reason why there is so much 'cheap 2nd hand formula gear on SB'

I had written a long winded dialogue about this topic, but it seemed like a rant, so left it.

My POV is backed up by the numbers, which speak for themselves, it's a dead horse enjoyed by very few.

If you remember the sport is called WINDsurfing and have modern kit, you fast realise you only need a small amount of gear to enjoy it, and if we all stick with that then the sport looks a lot more attractive to newbies and will grow.

0-12 knts is an ideal time to teach a newbie! or SUP/GYM or play around on a longboard, this will help keep your fitness for the next big blow!

Low wind, high performance windsurfing is not attractive, even Bjorn Dunkerbeck said as much in a recent article, and rarely comments much on stuff like this.

For my $5-$8k Formula experience I could nearly by a small trailer sailor for the entire family, or have a great holiday in WA, Maui, or a fraction of the cost Green Island! And I will come back a much better sailor for the quality and volume of windy time on the water.

Each and everyone to their own, better than doing nothing, but at that wind ranges mentioned here there is heaps of other things I'd rather be doing, if you wanted to promote a 0-12 knt windsurfing class then surely long boarding and or one design has got to be it.

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cammd said...
"with the PWA having an all winds racing policy with a bottom limit of 7 knots" . Hmmm interesting you put that forward, I remember a recent slalom event that more than covered that bottom wind range but your comments were as follows.

Ray, I reckon the only racing will be boat races at the bar. Remember windsurfing requires WIND

The horse is dead - stop flogging it. It will still be a great arvo if Ritchie's providing the tunes and the beer is cold.

Just checked the NOR which has no minimum wind limit. So I guess the forecast is ideal??????.for a Mountain Bike Ride

Your point Cammd? It was a massive success, for all what 10 or 12 of you that competed?

You may also like to know that if the PWA guys drop off the plane then the race is cancelled, and they go bike riding.... Oh didn't a formula board win that race? So how can it be a slalom event when the formula clearly is outside the PWA and the local Sailboard club regulated width.

Personally I don't see the point of this post apart from being a lame attempt at stirring.

here's my long winded rant.

I sailed formula on a recreational basis for 10 years.

sailed locally, the Caloundra bar, out from Bribie, Wello, gold coast broadwater, the lake, Redcliffe, the islands around redy bay. I sailed alongside vando on his slalom kit many times and he would plane within 2 knots of me easily.

I had an 8.5m sail and a $150 second hand fin and an $800 board I saved from the bin because it collapsed during vacuum bagging.

I never struggled in no wind, I never found it difficult to sail at any point of sail, I speed sailed on broad reaches, explored islands with tight upwind downwind legs and took the thing in the surf from time to time.

I found it to be the perfect all round piece of kit. I had the formula setup for under 20 knots and a wave board for over 20 knots.

sure there are formula design that are not so friendly. look for the ones with lots of volume in the tail and avoid them.

you don't need a specialised boom/mast/sail to go formula sailing. you can get the things to plane in 8-10 knots with an 8.5m sail.

shoulda seen the look on the chair police's faces when I turned up at the train around 2001 with a formula setup.

one guy asked me if I had brought the dining table from home.

I asked him if he was comfortable enjoying the view.

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Personally I don't see the point of this post apart from being a lame attempt at stirring.

Not stirring. I'm new to the sport and wondered why formula isn't popular in qld whereas it is popular down south. I'm loving it. That said, I'm unusual in that I have gear for everything, slalomx2, B&J, Raceboard, and Formula. Speed board coming.

It's been interesting to get everyone's opinion on formula. I'm gunna keep doing formula, it works for me. And I can now see why it doesn't work for some others.

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Steve1001 said...

Personally I don't see the point of this post apart from being a lame attempt at stirring.

Not stirring. I'm new to the sport and wondered why formula isn't popular in qld whereas it is popular down south. I'm loving it. That said, I'm unusual in that I have gear for everything, slalomx2, B&J, Raceboard, and Formula. Speed board coming.

It's been interesting to get everyone's opinion on formula. I'm gunna keep doing formula, it works for me. And I can now see why it doesn't work for some others.

Steve, not a question to you, but cammd's. I understand why you are asking, just did not see the point in cammd's response, and how it related to the general thread.

Dam71 my point didn't relate to the general thread I just failed to understand why today you were espousing the virtues of light wind slalom sailing yet a few months ago you were doing your best to keep everyone away from a light wind slalom event with your negative comments.

Another point seeing as though you brought the subject up, it was a slalom event, marks were set across the wind, ok it wasn't a PWA sanctioned event nor was it within the Bayside regulated width, perhaps the organiser's didnt realise they needed to meet those criteria to host an event and call it slalom.

Now to how successful it was, I think those that stayed and sailed would call it a success, hats off to the guys on the slalom gear for sailing despite the marginal conditions, it served to really show the skills they have. But why bag it, everyone who organises a windsurfing event is at the mercy of the wind. Bayside have had their share of getting skunked but no one gets on here and points it out, its part of the risk of stepping up to doing something for the sport. And who are you to bag someone else's efforts, how successful was the season at Bayside when it was under your leadership as "el presidente" not very from what I've heard.

Finally in regard to lame attempts at stirring, can I ask you to re read your comments I posted above, if that wasn't stirring I don't know what is.

Why don't we discuss trailer parking at Wello? Could be a good direction change for this thread?

Windsurfing trailer? What about them? Wello? You need two car parks? One for the car, one for the trailer?

I want a trailer. They rule. Take your entire quiver with you. Rig to suit the actual conditions. Go home, unhook, done.

Hmmmm- trailer at well with ALL the gear- Def the way to go!!

Thanks Handyman
I would like to add that we should stop immigration to prevent any more overcrowding at Wello and all the other beautiful venues we like to sail at.
300 000 people are added every year through immigration. I am an immigrant myself but lets not pretend anything is going to get better when Australias population has doubled in 40 years time.

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Steve1001 said...
Windsurfing trailer? What about them? Wello? You need two car parks? One for the car, one for the trailer?

I want a trailer. They rule. Take your entire quiver with you. Rig to suit the actual conditions. Go home, unhook, done.

you get vip parking at wello if you have a trailer , over half the car parks are for trailer only

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you get vip parking at wello if you have a trailer , over half the car parks are for trailer only

Cool, I'm definitely getting a trailer then .

If I could have only one board it would be a Formula Board! For me they offer the most value in that you can sail them in under ten knots and up to thirty knots and they get very high angles upwind and deep downwind. In NSW you get club racing, tour events, state and national championships. If I lived in Brisbane I would be into race boards probably although redcliff and RQ is made for it. I love training formula and I don't have to race. The boards are challenging never boring. For me the gear is most impressive in light winds, you can glide through lulls straight past multi million dollar yachts like they are standing still. Having said that sailing the boards well in rough weather is crazy fun, gets your heart really pumping!! Check out my YouTube channel WindsurfingReligion for formula vids. I reckon a 85cm Slalom or a 100cm wide Formula get planning in about the same wind. A formula board has parallel rails and are generally sailed through the water on a angle which gives a very soft ride through the chop which is nice.

formula doesnt plane a whole lot earlier than slalom, so the light guys are always going to clean up. Cost- it is an additional mast & boom over what most people already have, whilst there are plenty of cheap boards & sails & fins the mast & boom can add nearly another $300. Guys like vando, glynn & I sail 120+ days per year, so why do you need a formula- if you sail more then no work gets done. Launch spots on southside suck at low tide for formula. If you are limited for time & need to sail raceboard much better for any conditions, launching, imo are more fun/technical to sail & you dont need an additional mast & boom over the slalom kit.

If you are going to bring a trailer to wello respect the other guys & park in the trailer bays.

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JustinL said...
If I could have only one board it would be a Formula Board! For me they offer the most value in that you can sail them in under ten knots and up to thirty knots and they get very high angles upwind and deep downwind. In NSW you get club racing, tour events, state and national championships. If I lived in Brisbane I would be into race boards probably although redcliff and RQ is made for it. I love training formula and I don't have to race. The boards are challenging never boring. For me the gear is most impressive in light winds, you can glide through lulls straight past multi million dollar yachts like they are standing still. Having said that sailing the boards well in rough weather is crazy fun, gets your heart really pumping!! Check out my YouTube channel WindsurfingReligion for formula vids. I reckon a 85cm Slalom or a 100cm wide Formula get planning in about the same wind. A formula board has parallel rails and are generally sailed through the water on a angle which gives a very soft ride through the chop which is nice.

With my limited formula experience, i have to agree with lots of what Justin says. 10-30kts, maybe not 30 for me just yet, but 10-20 is no worries, high angle upwind and downwind is great, potential to race if one desires is good, and never boring is very true. gliding thru lulls is a big advantage, and re chop, formulas do eat chop in most conditions. that did surprise me when i started. I'm hooked.

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mkseven said...
formula doesnt plane a whole lot earlier than slalom, so the light guys are always going to clean up. Cost- it is an additional mast & boom over what most people already have, whilst there are plenty of cheap boards & sails & fins the mast & boom can add nearly another $300. Guys like vando, glynn & I sail 120+ days per year, so why do you need a formula- if you sail more then no work gets done. Launch spots on southside suck at low tide for formula. If you are limited for time & need to sail raceboard much better for any conditions, launching, imo are more fun/technical to sail & you dont need an additional mast & boom over the slalom kit.

If you are going to bring a trailer to wello respect the other guys & park in the trailer bays.

$300? i think you meant to say $3,000?

yes tide is an issue with formula. Low tide is possible in the bay but you have to stay out the back. But same goes for raceboard with its 70cm centreboard. Raceboards do need an old school tight leech raceboard sail for <15kts, and you won't use this sail on any of your other boards. Tried it and it don't work. Draft to rear, putting too much pressure on fin.

yeah $3000 stupid phone. Launching is the tide issue, at least with raceboard & rsx you can use boat ramp/harbour & have better pointing for channel. Purchasing sails & boards is a given & you can get second hand, I try to avoid second hand carbon stuff raceboard is pretty much same boom & mast you'd use for slalom.

So if you can sail at least 1 in every 3 days, its easier, faster planes essentially the same & there is a healthy slalom & speed fleet yes why go formula? Limited to one board... for me it'd be a 70 wide slalom & a 7.8 & 6.2 for brisbane. Under that i'll go fishing or race cars, at wello not many people sail on 10-12 knot days & often it's only 4 or 5 guys that get to enjoy the sandbank.

I think it's each to their own, i dont like the way the ride & i dont like eating sh!t when the formula ploughs through something a slalom wouldve gone over top of.

I'll stick to my 6 boards which are perfect, easy, fast, fun etc in the right conditions for them.

Lets not get side tracked here with traiker parking at wello etc etc. nice post Steve, you've got them talking. I would love to see formula take off. It's ten years plus since I've done it, I remember it as a blast. What I like about racebiard/ formula is that you can go anywhere you want, whenever, however and forever. Pick a destination, upwind, downwind, tangalooma for a steak sandwich and a cold corona(lemon or lime) or wherever you wish to go. I love having a destination or a course, blasting back and forwards 100m of the beach and back bores me to tears.
Some of you slalom heads should give it a go some time. Learn to go upwind and you may discover another avenue of our beautiful sport....

This has been a great thread. It seems that Formulas are 'love or hate'. I didn't expect this thread to create so much debate. Our windsurf community is alive and well.

It would great to get a regular QLD formula crew together. We could go south occasionally and race the cockroaches, a sailing 'State of Origin'. Apparently there's 3 of us who formula regularly in the bay. Then there's the pros Luke and Sean but they are often overseas. We need more. Come on guys give it a go.