The Crissy Field event was run in winds 9-18, flood tide. Mike used a 7.6, unheard of for Crissy.

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LeeD said..
The Crissy Field event was run in winds 9-18, flood tide. Mike used a 7.6, unheard of for Crissy.

You are missing the point ...

And yes, me personally maybe 2/3rd the sailor of me in 1995.
Why am I able to easily keep up with big young dudes on 3 year old gear? Talking guys with letters and #'s on their sails.
I'm 73 on 15 year old gear.

Duzzi, what is your point?
I was not nearly the fastest back in the '90's.
Yogi, Jeff Bayles, was faster than my practice partner Victor Zuffla. Victor was Dunk speed, but not nearly as tactical. He won 1, maybe 2 Oneill Classics.
I sailed with Yogi easily 500 days.
JD was fast, a Berkeley sailor.
The new gear only makes the lesser skilled sailors faster.

His point is your an egotistical name dropping wanker living in the past!!! The older I get the better I was.

Yes, this could've been an interesting discussion, but ruined by the troll/pest, continually talking about himself. Probably time for LeeD to take a little holiday from seabreeze.

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Dezza said..
Yes, this could've been an interesting discussion, but ruined by the troll/pest, continually talking about himself. Probably time for LeeD to take a little holiday from seabreeze.

Someone had to say it ....
From someone who is definitely faster

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The new gear only makes the lesser skilled sailors faster.

This bugs me LeeD. You say this which contradicts every thing else you have said.
To answer the question of OP, yes!!
Slowly, but as we encounter ideal the conditions that facilitate speed. From what I can see it will take a very bright idea to enable those at the top to take advantage...

Why are all the Aussies getting upset and taking it out on LeeD? It was Tbwonder who produced and posted the graph. (Post #3) He's one of us. He' s from NSW.

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Ian K said..
Why are all the Aussies getting upset and taking it out on LeeD? It was Tbwonder who produced and posted the graph. (Post #3) He's one of us. He' s from NSW.

Is this a trick question?

No? But here's one. Which board manufacturer first coined the phrase "real world" to describe the conditions for which one of their boards was designed?

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Ian K said..
Why are all the Aussies getting upset and taking it out on LeeD? It was Tbwonder who produced and posted the graph. (Post #3) He's one of us. He' s from NSW.

Ian, no one is upset with tbwonder.

This is one of my favourite photos of Pascal Maka breaking the world record. His location, strength and technique are perfect. His rig... almost perfect. The only thing stopping him from hitting 45 is the old board with a mast track 18 inches further forward than them new-fangled boards.

Good point. But 1986 is 36 years ago. TbWonder's graph only goes back 15 years. ( Though some have rounded up to an even 20. If 2 sec maxs don't rise in the next 3 or 4 years it will have demonstrated something - something that is unresolved at this stage of the thread)

Don't feed the troll.

He has not clue what speedsailing is. He never uses a GPS. He does not understand the difference between slalom and speedsailing. The only thing he is an expert in is claiming to know everything better, and poisoning forums - often with provocative statements that are intended to provoke a response, so he can respond again by outlining how great he is.

There is no speedsurfing in the US anymore. I am currently at a spot that has (for the US) good conditions, and where speed competitions were held regularly in the past. That is long gone. I have seen two other guys out on slalom gear in the last 2 months here. One of them is the local shop owner, and he's training slalom, not speed, and without a GPS. A couple of guys from the SF area post to GPSTC in the summer, and they have speeds that are impressive for current US standards - but they would be beaten by just about anyone on a decent day at Lake George, Albany, Mandurah, and many other spots in Oz. To know what speedsurfing is nowadays, you have to take a trip to Oz or some of the European hot spots.

So please, ignore the troll and let him starve.

Loads of speedsailing on the Columbia River in Oregon, only place in the USA where 40knot plus speeds have been achieved for the last 15 years. Speedsailing isn't dead in the USA, but lots of dead slow sailors that think it is!

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Ian K said..
Good point. But 1986 is 36 years ago. TbWonder's graph only goes back 15 years. ( Though some have rounded up to an even 20. If 2 sec maxs don't rise in the next 3 or 4 years it will have demonstrated something - something that is unresolved at this stage of the thread)

No, no. Those data will never demonstrate much of anything. You want to compare equipment? You have to compare equipment, not draw inference from garbage data collection. (Garbage data meant in a statistical sense.)

And we do strongly suspect that equipment got better in fifteen years Although there are obviously diminishing returns at play. Just four years after the 49.09, the top speed went up to 52.05, but now at Luderitz, and that points to a possible venue effect. And the 500 speed record has not moved since 2015 at Luderitz, when it went up 4.26 knots from 2008, with the same pilot. The nautical mile has gone up "only" two knots, 41 to 43 knots, 2006 to 2020, but in different venues.

Slalom...quickest around at least 2 buoys, usually set at a relatively short distance apart compared to freeride, accentuating good turning and acceleration more than pure top speed.
Speed....one rider at a time through 2 set marks, one start mark, one finish mark. Unlimited choice of gear, usually as many runs as you can get.

If the newest gear is constantly getting better, then all of YOU who buy it every 2 years is constantly getting SLOWER.
1986 is like 36 years ago. I said back to 1997, and mean specifically North Spectro......3 cam, fully twisted.

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duzzi said..

Ian K said..
Good point. But 1986 is 36 years ago. TbWonder's graph only goes back 15 years. ( Though some have rounded up to an even 20. If 2 sec maxs don't rise in the next 3 or 4 years it will have demonstrated something - something that is unresolved at this stage of the thread)

No, no. Those data will never demonstrate much of anything. You want to compare equipment? You have to compare equipment, not draw inference from garbage data collection. (Garbage data meant in a statistical sense.)

And we do strongly suspect that equipment got better in fifteen years Although there are obviously diminishing returns at play. Just four years after the 49.09, the top speed went up to 52.05, but now at Luderitz, and that points to a possible venue effect. And the 500 speed record has not moved since 2015 at Luderitz, when it went up 4.26 knots from 2008, with the same pilot. The nautical mile has gone up "only" two knots, 41 to 43 knots, 2006 to 2020, but in different venues.

The data doesn't allow comparison! Isn't that the whole point of Gps competition. Comparison. The data set is the most accurate and verified in the whole sporting world. It's whole point is comparison. Pb s , team challenge. Luderitz vs Sandy point. Aus vs US. Legends vs juniors. Your speed in 2006 vs 2026. A statistician is trying to kill the sport! Maybe he's a troll?

Oh well. All's fair on the internet

Statistician trying to kill the sport? The original post was by someone who's made a huge contribution to speed sailing recently with Garmin data fields which a lot of us are now using, (for free!) Some of the best NM and hour results posted on GPSTC this year, have been aided by using that data while sailing.

I thought the data graphs were interesting, many variables in there but still worth considering

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Roo said.. >>> Speedsailing isn't dead in the USA, but lots of dead slow sailors that think it is!

Careful Roo, you'll get shooting the breeze banned again

I agree with Roo....Plenty of fast sailors at flatwater venues. Klickatat.

..and my comparisons are really unfair...
Fast freeride is much easier to hammer down than pure slalom in rough water.
And sailing for 2 hours straight is different than blasting for 10 minutes.

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Dezza said..
Statistician trying to kill the sport? The original post was by someone who's made a huge contribution to speed sailing recently with Garmin data fields which a lot of us are now using, (for free!) Some of the best NM and hour results posted on GPSTC this year, have been aided by using that data while sailing.

I thought the data graphs were interesting, many variables in there but still worth considering

That last bit was tongue in cheek, an oblique reference to another post.

The point was how can you single out "equipment improvement "as the only point of comparison that the gps data is not useful? Why? Is there a better way to filter it for this comparison than that of TbWonder?
At the moment the hypothesis that "the top speed characteristics of equipment has barely improved in the last 20 years " has not been disproven.

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Ian K said..

duzzi said..

Ian K said..
Good point. But 1986 is 36 years ago. TbWonder's graph only goes back 15 years. ( Though some have rounded up to an even 20. If 2 sec maxs don't rise in the next 3 or 4 years it will have demonstrated something - something that is unresolved at this stage of the thread)

No, no. Those data will never demonstrate much of anything. You want to compare equipment? You have to compare equipment, not draw inference from garbage data collection. (Garbage data meant in a statistical sense.)

And we do strongly suspect that equipment got better in fifteen years Although there are obviously diminishing returns at play. Just four years after the 49.09, the top speed went up to 52.05, but now at Luderitz, and that points to a possible venue effect. And the 500 speed record has not moved since 2015 at Luderitz, when it went up 4.26 knots from 2008, with the same pilot. The nautical mile has gone up "only" two knots, 41 to 43 knots, 2006 to 2020, but in different venues.

The data doesn't allow comparison! Isn't that the whole point of Gps competition. Comparison. The data set is the most accurate and verified in the whole sporting world. It's whole point is comparison. Pb s , team challenge. Luderitz vs Sandy point. Aus vs US. Legends vs juniors. Your speed in 2006 vs 2026. A statistician is trying to kill the sport! Maybe he's a troll?

You are confusing data with study design. Let's take it step by step, and yes from a statistical perspective (you can call me troll if it makes you feel better):

1. A GPS competition can be seen as a study that answers a very specific question: who is faster among a collection of individuals using different equipment on a certain day, in a certain location.

2. A collection of 14 years of semi-random, self-reported, GPS data is what is called an observational data set. Those are data sets that do not actually correspond to any study in particular. And in this case were certainly not collected in a study designed to answer the question: is 2008 equipment faster of slower then 2022 equipment?

3. If you want to answer that question a study like the one reported at 1. might be a decent approximation. That is a GPS competition for people using 2008 vs 2022 equipment. Better of course would be to forget a competition, and put the same pilot on the different equipment, and track speed and wind speed.

Can ONE pilot dial in and and sail that range of gear?
Bud of mine was decently fast on '12 Isonic.
Is now decently fast on '20 Futura.
He would be decently fast on '22 slalom or fast freeride boards.

That's right it takes time to dial in a new board. More time maybe than folks are willing to spend on back to back testing. Then there's the placebo effect. Best to look at the speeds of the best guys fully dialled in sailing 2002 gear. Vs. The best guys fully dialled in sailing 2022 gear. If the gps records can't answer that question you might as well go off in search of the luminiferous ether.

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Roo said..
Loads of speedsailing on the Columbia River in Oregon, only place in the USA where 40knot plus speeds have been achieved for the last 15 years. Speedsailing isn't dead in the USA, but lots of dead slow sailors that think it is!

Says the captain of the other US team on GPSTC who was the only US-based windsurfer to post a session since July 2021, and only got sessions had the two required sessions for the monthly rankings with help from posts from Dutch/Bonaire windsurfers.

The grammar in the second part of the sentence is quite wrong, but it appears you're trying to call me a "dead slow sailor". So perhaps I am slow, not really making it into the top 1/3 of the GPSTC rankings for top speed. But in the US ranking on GPSTC for 2021, I came in 4th. Two of the guys faster than me last year who posted for the US rankings were from Bonaire, one of them a top-level PWA sailor. Perhaps you consider the 21 sessions that you posted in the summer and fall as "lots of speedsailing"? I don't - I've been on the water in Oz on days with more than 21 speedsurfers who all posted to GPSTC. On one day, not an entire summer.

But if you indeed consider me a "dead slow sailor", I have one question: does it hurt a lot that you have to share the 3rd spot in the US ranking on GPSTC with me? Considering that you're a former pro who has been speedsurfing for decades, and I'm an amateur who most days prefers windfoiling or other (not speed or slalom) forms of windsurfing?

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Ian K said..
That's right it takes time to dial in a new board. More time maybe than folks are willing to spend on back to back testing. Then there's the placebo effect. Best to look at the speeds of the best guys fully dialled in sailing 2002 gear. Vs. The best guys fully dialled in sailing 2022 gear. If the gps records can't answer that question you might as well go off in search of the luminiferous ether.

... we know that the best guys in 2002 were going slower then the best guys in 2008, who were going slower than the best guys in 2015, who are going a bit slower then the best guys in 2022.