GPS AND Speed.
GPS is one part for sure, but it's tech theory talk.
Actual windsurf speed is proven on the water, in real world conditions.
That's the OTHER part.

LeeD your flurry of posts above just confirm your ignorance of the typically equipment used and sailing conditions experienced by participants in the GPS Team Challenge (GPSTC). GPSTC was established in Australia 2007. The majority of participants are from Australia, but there are also participants from NZ, Europe and even a handlful in North America. Every participant wears an approved GPS device that records the best results across 6 disciplines, for each session. The six disciplines are:
- best 2 sec speed
- Ave of 5 best 10 sec speeds
- best hour
- best alpha 500 (which is measured over a 500m course with a gybe in the middle where you must finish with 50m of your entry point)
- best nautical mile
- total distance

Almost exclusively sailors have used, depending on sailing conditions, speed, slalom and freerace board coupled with 4 cam slalom or 3 cam freerace sails. All the best speeds are achieved in flatwater sailing locations with high wind. Check out the following URL to get an understanding of the database set that tbwonder has based his analysis on.

gpsteamchanllenge.com.au

Unfortunately your subjective comparative experience on San Francisco Bay on your freeride gear, comprehensive as it is, is not relevant to the topic.

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LeeD said..
Yes, good point.
But I am not feeling fast. I am comparing my speed with a freeride board and much smaller sail against decent sailors on Isonics, Manta, RS's, and Airs.

Exactly! You comparisons are pretty much irrelevant.

I sail at multiple venues with the best sailors in Australia, who are on the best and latest go fast equipment, in some of the best spots for going fast in the world, and and I can say for sure that the best off them still go faster than me by the same margins as before, but we are all going a LOT faster than 10-20 years ago in a lot less wind.

LeeD, you should come to Australia and see what real speed windsurfing looks like these days. Or come and show us how you can blow us all off the water with your old free ride gear.

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LeeD said..
GPS AND Speed.
GPS is one part for sure, but it's tech theory talk.
Actual windsurf speed is proven on the water, in real world conditions.
That's the OTHER part.

Actual windsurfing speed is accurately measured and proven by the data in any conditions! Try it, and be embarrassed!

Yeah, everyone knows data is easily manipulated, but it's all we have now.
We didn't have that data 15 years ago so how can YOU compare now and then?
And while Lake George is a great, treasured venue, it's not real world conditions, is it?

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LeeD
And while Lake George is a great, treasured venue, it's not real world conditions, is it?

It is for us

Wtf is real world anyway... Lake George or less desirable conditions for speed are on the same planet last time I checked. LeeD the thread is about GPS speed sailing... Do you do much of that?

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LeeD said..
Yeah, everyone knows data is easily manipulated, but it's all we have now.

And there are techniques which mitigate or completely-eliminate the ability to fake the data.

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We didn't have that data 15 years ago so how can YOU compare now and then?

Wes we did. Have you been living under a rock? Highly accurate GPS measurement has existed in the consumer space, since around 2007.

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And while Lake George is a great, treasured venue, it's not real world conditions, is it?

Clearly the hundreds of people sailing at Lake George are a figment of everyone's imagination but not yours.

-> What drugs are you on, because they are making you insane.

I can only reference what i've seen locally, but whilst the 2 & 5x10 of the top guys havnt increased everyone else got consistently faster across a wider range of conditions. Also the very top local guys aren't really chasing speed anymore or devoting the time they did before.

Personally I dont bother to post, but I think im continuing to get faster despite having worse fitness.

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LeeD said..
Yeah, everyone knows data is easily manipulated, but it's all we have now.
We didn't have that data 15 years ago so how can YOU compare now and then?
And while Lake George is a great, treasured venue, it's not real world conditions, is it?

From GPS-Speedsurfing.com, the 10s average rankings from Berkerley, San Francisco Bay, California, USA. I've added the year achieved. So we have the data from 15 years ago, but no recent data as nobody posts any longer.

Perhaps LeeD can borrow a GPS and let us know the latest speeds, or where the American website where they post their speeds.

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LeeD said..
Yeah, everyone knows data is easily manipulated, but it's all we have now.
We didn't have that data 15 years ago so how can YOU compare now and then?
And while Lake George is a great, treasured venue, it's not real world conditions, is it?

Neither is Ho'okipa.

I looked up 10s average speeds on GPS-Speedsurfing.com for UK spots West Kirby, top speed spot, Southend, Portland Harbour Weymouth and my local spot Poole Harbour.
WK just needs wind.
Southend needs a low Spring tide to expose a sandbar to get flat water
Portland needs a high Spring tide to work best, and 2020/2021 werent great years for wind.
Poole is more difficult to go fast, and people use small slalom boards rather than speed boards.

If the top speed sailors from 2006-2010 still sailed I reckon they would have gone quicker, although going fast depends mostly on conditions, wind, angle, tide etc.
If you look at an individual sailor like Simon Pettifer who gets new kit each year as he is top 5 UK slalom and is sponsored, his speeds have been improving over the years. www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=user&smnu=sessions&uid=4276&StartRow=0

The R is for still regularly sails at the spot.

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LeeD said..
20 year old gear goes as fast as 2021 gear.

Jim Crossley is the fastest currently in the UK and sometimes takes out 20 year old kit for fun. He says his speeds are 10% slower on old kit. Thats a fact.
Places like Luderitz might have faster speeds from a few years ago as conditions were better then.
In the UK I think there are fewer serious speed sailors than 15-20 years ago, so a UK average trend could well be stagnant or even downward.

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LeeD said..
Yeah, everyone knows data is easily manipulated, but it's all we have now.
We didn't have that data 15 years ago so how can YOU compare now and then?
And while Lake George is a great, treasured venue, it's not real world conditions, is it?

We go to great lengths to ensure data posted on GPS-TC and GPS-SS is valid. That is just not a thing.
GPS-SS begun in 2004, so we have data from many places for well over 15 years.
It's as real as any other treasured or famed spot. But there are at least another dozen spots where Aussie sailors regularly go very fast. You have no idea!

I'm guessing if LeeD borrowed a GPS he wouldn't crack 30.

You guessed wrong, then.
I bought the JP from Jon Robbins for 200 bucks in '08. Why so cheap? I was going easy 2 mph faster every run any day.
Jon is 6'3", maybe 195 then, now around 230. He claimed he could tack that 84 liter board. I can not.
That '07 JO is a dog.
Jason, I sold him a Kinetic JL he used for timing in addition t He'd just learned to jibe when he got his watch.
Isabella really sweet girl, moved to BC 2 years later, had kids, nowhere near speedy.
Andrew, another big dude, racer, towed a trailer around hung around me at the rigging area for a reason..moved back to East Coast.
Jean used to be pretty pedestrian in speed

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PhilUK said..

LeeD said..
20 year old gear goes as fast as 2021 gear.

Jim Crossley is the fastest currently in the UK and sometimes takes out 20 year old kit for fun. He says his speeds are 10% slower on old kit. Thats a fact.
Places like Luderitz might have faster speeds from a few years ago as conditions were better then.
In the UK I think there are fewer serious speed sailors than 15-20 years ago, so a UK average trend could well be stagnant or even downward.

This thread is a very good example of what is wrong with the Web.

With all due regards and trying to be nice: somebody posts a graph that is based on messy aggregate data that any statistician would toss in a garbage can. The data is meaningless when it comes to answer the question: "Is 15-20 years old equipment faster or slower than current equipment".

But still the graph is there! Published! and it shows, contrary to all evidence, that older equipment is as fast. (Or, mysteriously, faster if you are in the upper 25%!). As a result we are at page two of a meaningless discussion trying to refute (or support) a conclusion that is based on what statisticians would call "garbage data collection". [Yes, before you ask, I am (was) a professional statistician.]

But now at 210 lbs, could be very fast. A Cal Cup racer 1st
Greg is a current Cal Cup foiler, New blue Tillo.
And of course I know the rest, about 3 mph always separated us....
GPS was new then, but worse, sailing sites gave inconsistent wind, unlike steady Lake George.
Last Ponds day I competed in, super gusty 22-37 knot switch wind, my buddy Fat Dave clocked 40-44 repeatedly, the NP trio around 37, me 36 max, a bunch of guys over 37, and only the NP team was invited to stay for "official" timing the next day.
I have sailed with Roddy, Fred and Laird dozens of days on Maui. No biggie.

Of course, now at 73, I might not want to hang around a speed venue in my wetsuit for 4 hours, ready to go and constantly re tune ing my gear to try to match the wind that is going up or down, with 3 boards buried in sand.
I'd rather drive up, look and decide, sail for 1.5 hours, and go home to watch TV and log in to say stupid stuff to you guys.

2010.
That must mean data from '08 and '09, because of so much clutter and problems.
Fastest sailor could gave been a tuned MikeZ, who was pretty finicky to stop and adjust just about everything, making it impossible to sail side by side more than 2 runs.
He pretty much stopped riding slalom around then.

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duzzi said..

PhilUK said..

LeeD said..
20 year old gear goes as fast as 2021 gear.

Jim Crossley is the fastest currently in the UK and sometimes takes out 20 year old kit for fun. He says his speeds are 10% slower on old kit. Thats a fact.
Places like Luderitz might have faster speeds from a few years ago as conditions were better then.
In the UK I think there are fewer serious speed sailors than 15-20 years ago, so a UK average trend could well be stagnant or even downward.

This thread is a very good example of what is wrong with the Web.

With all due regards and trying to be nice: somebody posts a graph that is based on messy aggregate data that any statistician would toss in a garbage can. The data is meaningless when it comes to answer the question: "Is 15-20 years old equipment faster or slower than current equipment".

But still the graph is there! Published! and it shows, contrary to all evidence, that older equipment is as fast. (Or, mysteriously, faster if you are in the upper 25%!). As a result we are at page two of a meaningless discussion trying to refute (or support) a conclusion that is based on what statisticians would call "garbage data collection". [Yes, before you ask, I am (was) a professional statistician.]

Its an interesting discussion though.
Thread title "Are we going faster?"
The answer appears to be not really, even if you take the top 25% as a measure. Its not down to kit though.
Sailquik's first post listed possible variables, I cant thing of any others.

I know for sure I am slower.
That means everyone else hasn't improved much, since they are using newer gear designed for going fast.
Most of my gear is 10-23 years old.

I just looked up some Cloggies' stats, seeing as they still have lots of speed sailors. 4 different spots, and the top 10 speeds are mostly (50-60%) from 2015, must have been a windy year. A few earlier 2001-1014, and the rest from 2015 onwards. I suspect Oz & UK have declining numbers of decent sailors, or aging decent sailors who arent as fast as they once were. Just a guess though.

One other point..
Most of us were lighter weight back 10-20 years than we are now.
Fat is fast.
Now, when did our sailing skills and physical skills peak? For me, maybe 1995. That's maybe why I go pretty fast on old garbage.

Come on guys we all know LeeD was first to claim he felt he went 50knots on free ride gear in REAL world conditions in 1990's

Why the sarcasm?
You can't think why maybe YOU are faster now?
Could it be you are now a better sailor than you were 25 years ago?
Not gear...skill.
And wider boards are not faster, they are easier, and get going earlier.
Sails are not fastest, they might have more range.

I blame WingDings .

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LeeD said..
Why the sarcasm?
You can't think why maybe YOU are faster now?
Could it be you are now a better sailor than you were 25 years ago?
Not gear...skill.
And wider boards are not faster, they are easier, and get going earlier.
Sails are not fastest, they might have more range.

Izaak was only just born 25 years ago, was probably a few years before he could reach the boom!

Found that on the world wide web:

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duzzi said..

This thread is a very good example of what is wrong with the Web.

With all due regards and trying to be nice: somebody posts a graph that is based on messy aggregate data that any statistician would toss in a garbage can. The data is meaningless when it comes to answer the question: "Is 15-20 years old equipment faster or slower than current equipment".

But still the graph is there! Published! and it shows, contrary to all evidence, that older equipment is as fast. (Or, mysteriously, faster if you are in the upper 25%!). As a result we are at page two of a meaningless discussion trying to refute (or support) a conclusion that is based on what statisticians would call "garbage data collection". [Yes, before you ask, I am (was) a professional statistician.]

"and it shows, contrary to all evidence, that older equipment is as fast" - The graph doesn't show this, that is one possible (but unlikely) conclusion.

I don't recall posing the question "Is 15-20 years old equipment faster or slower than current equipment?"

The graphs are in no way a conclusion of anything, they are one representation of an incredibly large database of sailing sessions all recorded with accurate GPS devices. The idea was to discuss possible causes for the shape of the graphs which are clearly not what we would expect to see. People have put forward some suggestions regarding locations that no longer perform and the increasing average ages of speed sailors in Australia. Others have chosen to wander off topic somewhat, that is the nature of the web. like it or not!

I would be interested to see anybody's long term data analysis of sailing speeds.