The above graph is the average speeds in knots of all the best posted results from Team Challenge from 2007 to 2021. Extracted from the individual rankings for Australian members.
Probably best to ignore 2007 and 2008 as the comp was just starting and there is not as much data as other years, as many people had not yet joined.
The dotted lines on the 2 sec and 5*10 are the linear best fits.
There has been a slight improvement in Nautical Miles - Perhaps people are slowly discovering better places to do them.

So it appears there is very little to show for 15 years of development in sails, boards and fins.

It is possible that as the competition has grown, more casual people have joined that may pull down the averages. I will work on a revised graph with just the top 25% of competitors.

2017 was a bad year. Must have been when I joined.

So here we have the same graph but only includes the top 25% of sailors for each year. Interestingly there has been a slight decline in 2 sec and 5*10 speeds over the years. However Nautical miles and Hours have seen a significant rise since 2018, probably in part due to the conditions at Lake George suiting these categories.

Not sure the average means much. You have continuous stream of rookies like me continuously joining that keeps the average down. Roughly there is equilibrium between top sailors leaving and rookies joining. Might be more realistic to display just the peak speeds in various categories over same time period. The top 25% might not be representative either... you can massage data many ways

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tbwonder said..


So here we have the same graph but only includes the top 25% of sailors for each year. Interestingly there has been a slight decline in 2 sec and 5*10 speeds over the years. However Nautical miles and Hours have seen a significant rise since 2018, probably in part due to the conditions at Lake George suiting these categories.

The trend lines are not showing up.

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Flex2 said..
Not sure the average means much. You have continuous stream of rookies like me continuously joining that keeps the average down. Roughly there is equilibrium between top sailors leaving and rookies joining. Might be more realistic to display just the peak speeds in various categories over same time period. The top 25% might not be representative either... you can massage data many ways

Indeed. Observational historical semi-random data sets like these only show ... themselves. In that data set the 25% upper percentile 2s (?) speeds has slightly decreased from 2007 to 2021, but that is a long way from indicating much about how windsurfing equipment has become faster or slower. The data set collection is not designed to demonstrate or refute that.

The gap however, might not be that large. In 2008 the speed record was 49 knots and change (by AA), in 2022, in a different probably faster venue, it is 53 and change (still by AA!).

same speeds, but older people, not that bad...I think very few young guys are joining

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powersloshin said..
same speeds, but older people, not that bad...I think very few young guys are joining

Well I know that I am 10 years older then I was in 2012!

The gradual decline of speed could be the slow death of Sandy Point where all the best speeds were done.

With boards and sails significantly getting faster , lighter , better handling , easier to use , stronger and more dynamic whilst saving the world even more , every year , .......................... .we're going the same speed ?
Surely the brochures are not lying .
Is it the testing conditions are getting worse but mating to better gear that the speeds seem to be the same ?
Makes me wonder , with good and average sailers , how much slower would we be on 10 year old top of the line gear in the same conditions . Like , if we ran back to back new and 10 year old set ups every session . That's new 10 year old equipment , not flogged out stuff .
I would predict very little .
The older sails I'm using to go fast are the sails Anton used to crack 100 kmph for the first time . I don't understand why I'm not going as fast . Lucky for him I don't have newer gear

my speed pbs done with a $300 JP board of 2008, super tough, very hard to damage, done over 3000 kms on it

Going FAST:
To go fast one has to be in the right place, at the right time, on the right gear.

And then of course, one has to have the level of skill, fitness, motivation and confidence to do the deed.

Breaking it down:
The 'right place' is some where with flat water at the ideal angle to a very strong wind.
We are very much at Natures behest on this one. Venues and conditions change over the years. Arguably, the fastest place in the world from 1988 until about 2010 was the speed strip at Sandy Point. GPS speed results from 2004 to 2010 from this venue dominated the GPS world speed results. This venue is no longer consistently anywhere near as fast due to the physical changes evolving. A couple of specially built canals have dominated record speeds in that time and to the present, but they are accessible by only a very small number of windsurfers at sporadic intervals, so you won't really see much influence of them on GPSTC speeds.
New venues were discovered and exploited in Europe, particularly in the Netherlands and France since then and the fastest speeds now regularly come from those places. Weather patterns go in cycles so the ideal strong winds do as well. It can be many years between weather patterns (and water conditions) that favour a particular venue. Lake George is an example of that, where the best speeds were done in 2012-2013 when conditions, both wind and water, were exceptional, and have not been quite that good since. Budgiewoi, Primbee, Albany, Wellinton Point, Barrun Heads etc, have had exceptional conditions at different times over the years.

The 'right time' is the day hour and minute where the very strongest or best wind comes through at that 'right place', and all the other factors are at the optimum. The more often that happens, and the more often one can be at just the right place when it happens, the more often you will be able to go fast and the more likely you will be to achieve a PB.

The 'right gear' is the best combination of fin, board and sail for the conditions and you ability and size. This is highly variable according to all the other conditions and can take a lot of experience and analysis to optimise. Subtle differences can make a big difference. The 'combination' is far more important than any one element. As conditions and venues change, and of course the size and skills of the sailor, so do the ideal combinations.


Equipment: Much of the development of equipment over the last 15 years had been optimisation for a variety of particular conditions. eg: There is a greater variety of different sized speed boards and small slalom boards available. They is certainly a huge variety of speed fins available now to suit a huge variety of conditions, from open ocean to speed canals and the huge variety of weedy flat lakes. My current small slalom boards are demonstrably 2-3 knots faster across the wind and far easier to gybe than those I have from 10 years ago. My current fins are noticeably more secure from those I was using 10 years ago and that makes them faster for me most of the time, even if their ultimate theoretical top speed potential is no better. Likewise, my current sails are noticeably easier to sail on the limit than those from 10 years ago (and yes, I have kept some of the best of those and sailed them regularly for reference).

Human factors: The windsurfing population in general is ageing. Many of the same sailors who were in the top 50 speeds have not changed. Speaking for myself, I know I am not as fit and strong as I was 15 years ago, and I don't have the same disregard or my personal safety as I did then. I tend to sail a little more conservatively and take fewer risks when things get really wild and when there is the highest potential for exceptional speeds. I am guessing that I am not the only one.

Physics: It's pretty clear that we have got very close to the speed limitations of our current windsurfing 'platform' without some big breakthrough. The saying that "insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result" seems to be appropriate here. Sure, there are still small gains to be had around the margins, but we won't ever see the massive progress we saw between 1980 to the early 2000's

Meanwhile, I dream of the day when conditions are such that I can again try for a 40 knot Nautical Mile PB, straight down the middle of Lake George.

20 year old gear goes as fast as 2021 gear.
The sailors who think new gear is better were beginners back then. Or, they are in the industry, and need to SELL new gear to make money.
Most 1993 gear is slower than new gear.
All 1983 gear is slower than new gear.
You still gotta pick the correct gear for the conditions.

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LeeD said..
20 year old gear goes as fast as 2021 gear.

Talking slalom and speed gear - Demonstrably wrong!! It's also much easier to sail new stuff than the old stuff, which inevitably also makes it faster. Anyone who claims that has not done a valid comparison, or maybe they are so old that they cant go faster even on the better gear. By the way, its now 2022, just in case you missed it!

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LeeD said..
The sailors who think new gear is better were beginners back then.

Also demonstrably WRONG!!

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LeeD said..
Most 1993 gear is slower than new gear.
All 1983 gear is slower than new gear.
You still gotta pick the correct gear for the conditions.

Correct!

You should consider coming out and sailing at Berkeley Ca.
It's no longer a hub for slalom, as rec foiling and course racing has taken over, but....
Just 6 years ago, 4 of the top US Slalom national sailors used to sail Berkeley. Another was a current mid pak Pro class racer based out of Maui.
I never had problems being dropped by them, on 15 year older gear. I'd mostly be a touch faster in rough water spots, but lagged behind coming out of jibes, me often on 1.5 meter smaller sails and 10 liter smaller boards.
But competition all changed gear. Now 73, I am not the sailor I was decades ago, but still, by far, the fastest of a handful of buds who all jibe 80+ % and use full on new...within 3 years...slalom race gear.
Don't believe my 2020 sails are any faster than top 1997 sails.
And in fall, 1985, I was riding 13 lbs Seatrend prototypes, 9' x 23".

Demonstrate.....
Don't use that windsurf mag comparison as anything but toilet paper.
They didn't set up the Mistral, and it was their rec model, not a Tudor Energy with track back and Tetonics fin. And while they did rig the sail, there was no tuning ever applied.

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LeeD said..
20 year old gear goes as fast as 2021 gear.
The sailors who think new gear is better were beginners back then. Or, they are in the industry, and need to SELL new gear to make money.
Most 1993 gear is slower than new gear.
All 1983 gear is slower than new gear.
You still gotta pick the correct gear for the conditions.

Rubbish .

You were not a good sailor 20 years ago.
You are a good sailor now. So "now" gear is better!
I was a good sailor 30 years ago.
Now 73, I am still a good sailor, except I gotta pee every 2 hours.

I just want to clarify a few points. The data I used is only from Australian GPSTC competitors, so it is not influenced by the development of overseas speed sites. I agree the epic Sandy Point days are over.

Also please don't take this as an opportunity to attack each other. It's just an interesting observation from the data available.

"Attack".....
We are entitled to express our opinions.
If someone calls my opinions "rubbish"...he has a right to his opinion!
I can only explain my thought process, maybe with some examples.

I would agree that new gear would generally have to be better than older gear apart from an odd dud model .
Id think that there would be a much smaller performance gap between new and ten year old gear , compared to decade gaps before .

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LeeD said..
"Attack".....
We are entitled to express our opinions.
If someone calls my opinions "rubbish"...he has a right to his opinion!
I can only explain my thought process, maybe with some examples.

Wait till the tin hatters join They gots nowhere else to go .

My 20 year old board and fin won't do anywhere near 40 kts with my current skill level and a modern sail. I tried at Sandy Point getting 41s on modern and 38 with old. New jibed, old was like turning a truck. I did also get a Mistral Malibu to 34 kts with a modern sail. New is better unless your feeling like a bit of nostalgia and remembering the world with the rose coloured glasses.

Last summer, I bought a brand new Northwave Stilleto for 65 bucks. I have a 2020 Duotone SuperSession 5.2.
Both perform the same. 2020 Ezzy 430/400.
Northwave on 2004 North 40 % carbon
Nw is a 2001 model.

I have a 6.0 Retro, 2019.
My 2006 Sailworks Retro is just as fast, better low end, '19 better top end.
Nothing beats my 1999 NP Search 4.7, and I have 2019's in the van.

My 1999 Naish Freeide "97", called 100 liters, regularly stays with young riders with national sail numbers, they jibe better, me on 1.5 to 2 meter smaller sails. My sail would be mid '2000's.
Nobody falling on any jibes.
Of course, in a slalom race, I'd be midpack at best.. but sailing 1.5 hours and 70+ jibes without a break, their sails are too big and heavy, so they need breaks.

Well heck, my 2000 Naish Freeride 85 blows doors on my 2007 JP Pro Slalom 84, in EVERY catagory except fitting inside the backseat of a compact car.

And the Naish is 255 long, while the JP maybe 229

LeeD should wear a GPS and analyse actual speeds on his collection of gear. My experience is that when I feel like I'm are going fast, I'm not. Most of my speed PBs were a surprise because everything felt right.

Yes, good point.
But I am not feeling fast. I am comparing my speed with a freeride board and much smaller sail against decent sailors on Isonics, Manta, RS's, and Airs.

Comparing speed is not the same as measuring speed. GPSTC is all about very accurate measurement and analysis. To a fraction of a knot. Probably doesn't appeal to a lot of sailors but this sub-forum is all about that.