I created it. It was purpose-made with many efficiency tricks.

Jan and three of his friends using it for their DIY logger was fine-ish although I would have preferred to be asked first. But things changed. And I already know the mess this is going to cause.

It would make sense to create an open source ESP-GPS file extension then work with Dylan at ka72 to have it be readable for uploading

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Rolz said..
It would make sense to create an open source ESP-GPS file extension then work with Dylan at ka72 to have it be readable for uploading

There's more than Dylan involved here! There's all the analyse software writers and GPS^3, at least, probably others I can't think of.

Which makes a perfect example of my point. I had to convince people to use OAO. Nobody wanted it. Nobody cared about efficiency and tricks. As someone just reminded me, I was asked to use UBX or SBP/N which I refused because I had no rights to it. I had to wait sometimes years for some softwares to add it.

Then I show up here, read a few comments like "ho, this is so great, development goes so much faster than that Motion bloke". Well, guess what, it took longer because everything had to be created.

Now I have to hide what I'm doing/researching to avoid this very situation. I used to show up here, present an idea, receive feedback and then start working on it. Nowadays I discuss it with a handful of development users and say nothing until the whole thing is done. I hate it.

Now, hopefully this will have opened some eyes, and I'm willing to let you use OAO if:
- ESP-GPS and its user(s) credit Motion-GPS every time OAO is mentionned (in documentation and code).
- ESP-GPS and its user(s) credit Motion-GPS for potting devices (in documentation).
- ESP-GPS and its user(s) change the OAO file format to one I'll send later (which will be compatible with all existing readers; and will contain these same terms for all to see).
- ESP-GPS and its user(s) OAO files always include the OAO header and its new "thirdparty" field.
- ESP-GPS and its user(s) OAO files always set the OAO header "thirdparty" field to 1 or above.
- ESP-GPS and its user(s) make zero change to the OAO format.
- ESP-GPS and its user(s) make no effort to impersonate Motion-GPS OAO files.
- ESP-GPS and its user(s) make it clear to third-parties that their files are not Motion-GPS OAO files.
- This whole agreement is for ESP-GPS and its user(s) only.
- This whole agreement is for non-commercial and do-it-yourself use only. Commercial use is explicitly, and with no exception, prohibited.

Julien, I can see where you're going with this, it bears a resemblance to the open source license.

But potting devices?
Surely you aren't claiming credit for that idea. Potting has been around for decades, and I think it was suggested on this forum at the start, but from memory, you didn't want to get into wireless charging.

Well, I'll be happy to be proved wrong. Tell you what, I would have LOVED to have examples of potting done right back then.

I don't understand the mention of wireless charging.

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BigBoss said:


Hi Jan,

I noticed that the logo choice number does not responded correct to the logo's. Logo choice 12 should give Gaastra and Fanatic, but it displayed Fanatic and duotone.

Other issue, i want to change the timezone, but when i submitted the browser say that the 'barlenght' must be more than 1000 ( i had 500). Oke i changed it to 1000 then GPIO12_screen should be less than 1000.

The fieldchecks looks a little off ;-)

I did just checked the logos, on my browser (chrome / win10) everythings looks fine. Just the saillogo's 3 and 4 (both NP) were in reverse order. Logo 12 should display Fanatic and Duotone (board logo 1, sail logo 2).
The barlength is now limited between 1000 and 1852 meter, but I can enlarge this window from 250 - 10000 (can be handy in the Defi wind...). Timezone did work for me as it should. Only the change of the logOAO field was rather difficult, probably due to missing credits.... (sorry for the joke, i could not resist...).
Here the corrected logo list :

G'day Jullien,
Yes potting electronics has been around for a long time, oil and gas expo's have had people promoting them for at least a decade, I can even remember potted stuf done waaaaaaaaaaay back when I was an apprentice in the 80's

hackaday.com/2012/06/04/potting-electronics-with-silicone/

Yes of course. In our field tho? In a commercial handheld GPS?

Most likely especially if it's in a saturated environment, it's a tried and proven metthod of sealing electronics (doesn't matter what type it is), my company has potted electronics on level gauge sensors, my old Mazda RX4 from the 70's had it.

It's nothing new or special.

Well, anyone who knows about a pre-2016 commercial potted handheld GPS with a screen and physical buttons is welcome to intervene. I'm not pretending to be the first to pot something ever. :D

I just loaded the new update on my gps. It works great and the new interface looks fantastic. Thanks a lot everyone. It really is just getting more user friendly.

shannon.

Potting a gps, was just a natural progression, the only thing that stopped me doing it when I made my first logger, was the ability to charge and access data. Wireless charging and wifi connections solved that.

Julien, when the motion came out it was life saver for the GPSTC. The loco sys things were failing and getting discontinued.
We all had a our hopes on the LCD motion. Due to a string of very unfortunate circumstances, you weren't able to continue supply.
As several of us have paid for them years ago, with still no sign of them arriving, we gave up hope and went on board with Jan's DIY esp32.
As freight is about 50% of the cost for a single unit, Alby got together interested sailors and we had a bulk buy for 24 units. This considerably reduced the freight component of the costs for each unit.
If another commercial product was on the market, most of the 24 would have gone with that option. This is just part of the the commercial world.
Leave a void and something else will fill it.

I also think that if your code had a license agreement with it, Jan would have been happy to go along with that.
Bringing this up now on a public forum, isn't good for your image, you're looking a bit like a petulant child.
My advise is to discuss all this in private. these forums can be a hazard!

No. I'm not the one who should have done anything. You had no permission whatsoever to OAO.

Don't worry for my image. I'm sure many realize that using someone's work without permission isn't moral. Obviously those who stand to lose from this will be more vocal.

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10 Oct 2021 8:11PM JulienLe said..

rp6conrad said..
Last software version 5.0 ot the diy logger supports now the "oao" log format. This is the binary format that Julien has developed for the motion, and is now widely used as the most compact format for uploading to the gpstc and other sites.
Thanks to Julien for the excellent explanation on his website how to use this "oao" format.

Well, that's something I never expected to read for sure.

There's an undocumented change made recently, accuracy_pDOP is replaced by accuracy_hDOP. So you'll need to pull UBX-NAV-DOP too to fill that field.

G'day Julien

You have been aware of this since the inclusion of OAO.

And I didn't react then because Jan's and a few friends' personal use wasn't going to be a bother. Premises have changed now and various things have come to my attention. So this is as good a time as any to either remove OAO or accept the terms above. The potting bit can be removed from the terms. Although I would still be interested to hear about a "pre-2016 commercial potted handheld GPS with a screen and physical buttons".

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rp6conrad said..

BigBoss said:


Hi Jan,

I noticed that the logo choice number does not responded correct to the logo's. Logo choice 12 should give Gaastra and Fanatic, but it displayed Fanatic and duotone.

Other issue, i want to change the timezone, but when i submitted the browser say that the 'barlenght' must be more than 1000 ( i had 500). Oke i changed it to 1000 then GPIO12_screen should be less than 1000.

The fieldchecks looks a little off ;-)

I did just checked the logos, on my browser (chrome / win10) everythings looks fine. Just the saillogo's 3 and 4 (both NP) were in reverse order. Logo 12 should display Fanatic and Duotone (board logo 1, sail logo 2).
The barlength is now limited between 1000 and 1852 meter, but I can enlarge this window from 250 - 10000 (can be handy in the Defi wind...). Timezone did work for me as it should. Only the change of the logOAO field was rather difficult, probably due to missing credits.... (sorry for the joke, i could not resist...).
Here the corrected logo list :

Hmm, how do I have Mistral as board and Severne as sail?

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JulienLe said..
No. I'm not the one who should have done anything. You had no permission whatsoever to OAO.

Correction here Julien, all I'm doing is using the esp, and I've only had it on the water once. I had nothing to do with the esp firmware.

Select to expand quote

Don't worry for my image. I'm sure many realize that using someone's work without permission isn't moral. Obviously those who stand to lose from this will be more vocal.

And I don't stand to loose anything. I'm quite happy with the native .UBX files. I've been using them for years with my own loggers.

I was just trying to explain the situation as I see it.
You have enough enemies, don't count me as one please.
I'm quite happy to switch off OAO and just use UBX, until Jan gets round to accepting your license conditions.

Select to expand quote

JulienLe said.. Although I would still be interested to hear about a "pre-2016 commercial potted handheld GPS with a screen and physical buttons".

Probably isn't one, but that's irrelevant.
The motion LCD was indeed a breakthrough. and a fantastic achievement, nobody can deny that with any credibility.
And potting it was a good decision, but you can't claim that as an invention, as it's been common practice for decades.

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Freezer said..

rp6conrad said..

Freezer said..
After summer tests of the 3D printed case we came to the conclusion that a seal cannot keep water out of the case. After that we decided to use some bathroom silicone sealant to connect the lid with the case and it works well.
The 3D case is available on printables at www.printables.com/model/320425-gps-case with special thanks to Bart, our junior surfbuddie, who did all the design. We had many revisions to complete it. It fits nicely to the upper arm. We made a flat circle on the inside for the wireless charger location. Let mee see if I can draft a build instruction for it. It requires some additional components to finish it and make it work.

@Freezer : Is the 3D printed case completely watertight on its own ? Which material is used (PLA / ABS ...) ? Special settings ?

Greetings, Jan.

I print with PLA at hight quality with 0.15 layer hight. But since 3D prints are never really water tight I use DD-lak on the inside to seal it completely. The plexiglass I attach with 3M Scotch 5952 VHB-tape what makes it water tight as well. I tried many seals, but the PLA material seems to be too soft to keep full pressure on the complete seal and I always saw it bending/deforming near the screws/inserts. I have tried 3 types of acryllic-seal (rubber, silicon and butyl). I had 2x problems with the rubber type. Looks like it cannot seal when the gaps are too small?!? So I use the butyl variant. It stays flexible and is easier to remove after reopening. Somehow I don't like the idea of pooring it with resin like flex does, but it makes it quite bullit proof...

I also tried PETG since it is harder and printed at higher temperatures. But I have to work on the print settings. I was not yet able to make crisp prints. But I managed to have 1 watertight one for my son. I will do some more experiments with PETG.

I use velcro straps from Trilancer and bicycle spokes to connect them to the case. The magnet can be stashed in the tip of the velcro strap.

Perhaps I should make a google doc, just as you did with the build of the electrical components.

whilst I wait for my internal parts to arrive that google doc would be awesome... there are those nut thread thinga-ma-jigs you have in the lid that I'd like to know how to search for those :)
Same with the strap and the pins...
Thanks heaps! :)

Sorry decrepit, it was a broad plural "you".

Those who had to wait have every right to be mad at me. I'm fairly sure they'll appreciate the work done. And everyone's always been very nice.

Select to expand quote

Rolz said..

Freezer said..

rp6conrad said..

Freezer said..
After summer tests of the 3D printed case we came to the conclusion that a seal cannot keep water out of the case. After that we decided to use some bathroom silicone sealant to connect the lid with the case and it works well.
The 3D case is available on printables at www.printables.com/model/320425-gps-case with special thanks to Bart, our junior surfbuddie, who did all the design. We had many revisions to complete it. It fits nicely to the upper arm. We made a flat circle on the inside for the wireless charger location. Let mee see if I can draft a build instruction for it. It requires some additional components to finish it and make it work.

@Freezer : Is the 3D printed case completely watertight on its own ? Which material is used (PLA / ABS ...) ? Special settings ?

Greetings, Jan.

I print with PLA at hight quality with 0.15 layer hight. But since 3D prints are never really water tight I use DD-lak on the inside to seal it completely. The plexiglass I attach with 3M Scotch 5952 VHB-tape what makes it water tight as well. I tried many seals, but the PLA material seems to be too soft to keep full pressure on the complete seal and I always saw it bending/deforming near the screws/inserts. I have tried 3 types of acryllic-seal (rubber, silicon and butyl). I had 2x problems with the rubber type. Looks like it cannot seal when the gaps are too small?!? So I use the butyl variant. It stays flexible and is easier to remove after reopening. Somehow I don't like the idea of pooring it with resin like flex does, but it makes it quite bullit proof...

I also tried PETG since it is harder and printed at higher temperatures. But I have to work on the print settings. I was not yet able to make crisp prints. But I managed to have 1 watertight one for my son. I will do some more experiments with PETG.

I use velcro straps from Trilancer and bicycle spokes to connect them to the case. The magnet can be stashed in the tip of the velcro strap.

Perhaps I should make a google doc, just as you did with the build of the electrical components.

whilst I wait for my internal parts to arrive that google doc would be awesome... there are those nut thread thinga-ma-jigs you have in the lid that I'd like to know how to search for those :)
Same with the strap and the pins...
Thanks heaps! :)

I constructed a list of things that I ordered (at Amazon): www.amazon.nl/hz/wishlist/ls/17DD4LM2JI6WX?ref_=wl_share

Perhaps, if there is another easy way to do this, please let me know. I'm also not sure if it is available in your location. Feel free to find any alternative at any other shop. Obviously, you don't need these amounts for your own 1-2 units but at least you know what I use.

Here a brief build instruction.

Push the inserts M3x5.7 into the lid with your hot soldering iron until it levels. You need 4 per lid.
Put the double coat 2k on the inside of the 3D printed case and lid. You only need a little bit, 9 gram resin and 3 gram hardner should be enough.

Once the lid is dried, cut the 3M 5952 tape such that it nicely fits the area where it should hold the plexiglass. The 2.56cm width helps to have little waste, but you only need about 12cm. Use the uncut edges at the opening for the plexiglass for nicer look. The side remains visible. When sticking the 4 pieces inside the lid make sure to push them firmly also to stick to each other to for a good water barrier. Keep the red tape on until you want to place the plexiglas.
The plexiglas can be laser cut with the Plexiglas.dxf from www.printables.com/model/320425-gps-case/files
Don't forget to remove the protective layer when you stick them in the lid. Firmly press the plexiglass on the tape, remove all the air between tape and plexiglass.

Depending on your upper arm muscles you might need to shorten the velcro band to make a nice fit. Cut away the hard plastic at the end. Use a plyer to screw the spoke into the case mounting extension. It is a tight fit, so push hard while rotating. Once you have passed through 1 extension, insert the spoke though the velcro and then insert the spoke in the 2nd extension until it is firmly secured. Mind on what side you want the velcro to be fixated and ensure the anti-slip is on the inside. Redo the other spoke as well. The strap should go around this spoke to secure the strap. You can put the magnet in the tip of the velcro by remove some stitches, slide the magnet in and re-apply some stitches again to keep it in place. The magnet will be used to control the device.

Then insert the electronics. BN220 should be on top of the battery. Add some padding to fixate it and does not move or rattle. The wireless changer receiver should be below the screenholder, so stick it in the case. The ferro tape should keep the coil on the case. Add additional tape to secure it (if needed). put the screenholder in the case. Make sure it fits well. The coat on the inside might have made it too tight so remove excess coat. Insert the SDcard in the T5 and put the epaper screen on the holder. The sdcard (side) goes in first inside the case. Ensure the original wholes on the corners don't contain any soldering and are open.

This is the moment where you need to ensure all the programming, testing config-file on SDcard. Test the reed switches (again) and that the wireless charging is working. Once you're happy with the results running/cycling/driving around it is time to do the final waterproofving step. Apply butylkit or siliconekit in the slot of the lid. Enough to make a good seal. A tiny amount of excess material is good. Too much and it will become messy and enjoy cleaning up. Too little and the seal will not be good and you might get water inside. Use the screws to tighten the lid to the case. Don't overtight it. It might deform or crack the case.

I will make a document with some pictures for clarity. Good luck with the build.

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JulienLe said..
Although I assume that rights are granted by the intellectual property owner, boardsurfr nailed something: it was easier to hide new OAO versions from you so they wouldn't be copied. :D

What a fantastic idea. When I receive reports from GPS Speedreader users of problems with .oao files due to format changes, I'll just have to remove support for Motion devices. No problem, one of the two Motions I have is completely broken, and the other one is close. I'm sure many others have had similar experiences.

The only real advantage that .oao files ever had over .ubx files is smaller file size. But that's irrelevant when even the smallest SD cards hold thousands of files. If would be straightforward enough to develop a format that's even more compact, but there's really no point in doing so.

Legally, you have absolutely no leg to stand on with your request to stop using a specific file format. Practically, your demands to stop using the format for something you don't like, and to "threaten" that you will change the format without publishing the changes, only ensures that software developers won't support any of your future stuff.

Ho boy. You were offered replacement devices, like everyone else affected, and refused them.

On a broader tone, I have obviously no interest in working with anyone who wouldn't value my rights to my own work. It's just plain weird. If anything ever published was free-for-all, creation would be hell. MIT's famous open source license begins with "Permission is hereby granted".

Select to expand quote

boardsurfr said..

JulienLe said..
Although I assume that rights are granted by the intellectual property owner, boardsurfr nailed something: it was easier to hide new OAO versions from you so they wouldn't be copied. :D

What a fantastic idea. When I receive reports from GPS Speedreader users of problems with .oao files due to format changes, I'll just have to remove support for Motion devices. No problem, one of the two Motions I have is completely broken, and the other one is close. I'm sure many others have had similar experiences.

The only real advantage that .oao files ever had over .ubx files is smaller file size. But that's irrelevant when even the smallest SD cards hold thousands of files. If would be straightforward enough to develop a format that's even more compact, but there's really no point in doing so.

Legally, you have absolutely no leg to stand on with your request to stop using a specific file format. Practically, your demands to stop using the format for something you don't like, and to "threaten" that you will change the format without publishing the changes, only ensures that software developers won't support any of your future stuff.

Let's stay on topic guys. The issues with the Motion from the past can be discussed in another thread. The discussion on the file format is relevant though. Julien has developed the oao format, so give him the credits for that.

When I took a relative large file (~130min @10Hz) and converted it with GPSresult I found that the old SBP file (GT31) is the most compact one. Zipping it would further decrease the file size. I agree for storage it does not matter. 32Gb can hold a lot of data but for up- and down-loading files there will be a speed difference.

Would be nice to see if we can add support for the good old .sbp format again. File size is then even further reduced and is already accepted as input for GPSspeedsurfing.com

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Freezer said..

Would be nice to see if we can add support for the good old .sbp format again. File size is then even further reduced and is already accepted as input for GPSspeedsurfing.com

It is worth bearing in mind the SBP format doesn't support some of the interesting u-blox outputs such as horizontal, vertical and heading accuracy. SBP also has a lower precision than the u-blox outputs (e.g. cm vs mm, cm/s vs mm/s). Recording in SBP would mean that potentially useful data is gone forever.

SBP also supports some things that the u-blox does not output so that is a bit of wasted space; e.g. climb rate accuracy (aka vsdop).

Anyone interested in the content of various the file formats (including SBP, SBN, OAO and UBX) can find it on page that I created a little while ago. The gps-wizard project itself is very much a work in progress but the documentation on the various formats is accurate.

Click the formats themselves for details - logiqx.github.io/gps-wizard/

I am aware of these limitations of the SBP format, but the ESP-GPS can log .ubx and .sbp simultanous. The point is that GP3S does not use al these extra information, so uploading .ubx instead of .sbp does not make much sense. My workflow is that both formats are logged and stored, but uploading to gp3s is then with the condensed file. If there is any need, one can always upload the ubx file. Or if you use the gps-speedreader analysis software, ubx is also the way to go !
For the geeks :
ubx nav pvt frame = 100 byte
oao frame = 52 byte (just removed some fields from the ubx nav pvt, referred as "Many efficiency tricks"...)
sbp frame = 32 byte (removed more fields, and smaller resolution for speed, mm/s -> cm/s, even "More efficiency tricks"...)

Greetings, Jan.

Misses the tricks, acts cocky about it.

Does my offer to keep on using OAO against proper crediting, a few one-line changes to avoid impersonation and commitment to non-commercial do-it-yourself use not suit you?

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rp6conrad said..
My workflow is that both formats are logged and stored, but uploading to gp3s is then with the condensed file.

Ah, I didn't appreciate the ESP is logging to multiple formats simultaneously. Thanks for pointing it out.

I have some analytical work planned that will use some of the UBX-specific data items so I was keen to see the data is not discarded.