I am picking up from a now closed thread . Just a few thoughts.
Yes, regretfully windsurfing is in full decline. I still keep on, at 78, but I am most of the time the only one on the water..People look at me like an oddity..Yesterday a young mom was walking her kid by the beach and said" Wow, my kid was really impressed with you.." Maybe SHE was impressed because of my age, but the kid had probably never seen a windsurfer before. A sign of the times..

True, all things human wax and wane and windsurfing could not be expected to be the exception...

It was perhaps inevitable that kitesurfing would marginalize and, to an extent, replace windsurfing, at least traditional windsurfing.

I also think, though, that the windsurfing industry has contributed to this, because it has changed its original vocation of a leisurely, affordable, family-oriented, perhaps romantic activity, centered on the enjoyment of nature, into a high-tech,( therefore expensive) speed- and- adrenaline, almost extreme, sport.

Its hyperbole-filled, marketing savvy has succeeded in creating a lucrative venue by catering to a trendy, young population of nimble contortionists and. acrobats, who fearlessly tackle two-storeys high ocean waves or foil 1 m. above the water.

These young windsurfers ( or windsurfers-to-be-) now have come to associate anything other than planing, wave-riding, foiling and speed with. grandpa and..stay away from it.

The lesser revenues for the manufacturers, caused by the dwindling number of traditional windsurfers have in part been compensated by the new windsurfing trend and the high-tech expensive equipment that goes with it.

The profits from a $ 1500 carbon foil on a $ 2000 foiling board my well make up for each lost customer of the previous ( cheaper) windsurfing era, but there should be a place for both. This is not the case.

Many who don't go for the new style of windsurfing, would get onboard, if only they could find moderately priced beginners' equipment, but it is not easy. Even the good old Bic Windsup I have, one of the best and cheaper beginner boards, for its width, stability and sturdyness, now sells for about $ 1000 USD and is not the latest technology.

In only a few years, its price has almost doubled, If you, like me, loathe the flimsy, wobbly, planing-only shortboards and want to sail, for example, on a Kona longboard, it is close to $ 2000. And what about the sails? Some sell for close to $ 1500.. Every manufacturer tries to justify these prices by a grandiloquent marketing ploy which portrays them as if they had reinvented the wheel ..

I am not a beginner. I have been windsurfing for more than twenty years, but I still use a NP 6.2 Garda sail from the 90's..It is perfectly OK with me..I have tried more recent sails, but honestly , I can't see the difference..I am sure if you gave me a $ 1500 sail I wouldn't see the difference either..

There must be one, but it is probably noticeable only in the extreme conditions of racing and competition. Yet, if you want to buy a sail, beginner or not, you have to pay $ 1000 or more.If you can't afford, you stay away or buy a $ 500 kayak.

Certainly, materials have dramatically improved, but, for God's sake, a sail is a sail! Why should they be so darn expensive? Sure, manufacturers have to recover thousands of $$$ invested in R&D for sails and other equipment.

Perhaps this huge outlay of money for R&D was not necessary for sails and we pay the price.The number of features that can be changed or improved in a sail, is after all limited, as sailing is based on the laws of physics, which have been known and applied to navigation for centuries, sometimes intuitively, since antiquity..

Manufacturers make money also and above all by creating or changing perceptions..Nothing wrong with it. Business is business. What is more questionable and deplorable is the lack of discrimination of so many buyers, who believe in the reinvention of the wheel and are willing to pay sometimes disproportionate prices for windsurfing gear and lifestyles, simply because they are.. trendy, " cool" , fashionable and set them apart from the oldtimers and their lifestyles. Perhaps old windsurfing will come back one day, , one hopes, once kitesurfing reaches its zenith..And it will, probably faster than windsurfing, because the sheer number of kitesurfers on a given spot in a windy day is making it a dangerous sport .It also takes almost an airfield to rig and deploy them..

Francone

You can still buy boring equipment, usually for cheap/used. People just don't maintain interest and either quit or move onto something more interesting.

Im sure windsurfing is far from as popular as it was back in its hey day, but i fear you're you're sailing at different spots to everyone else. If anything i've noticed a slight resurgence in windsurfing over the 10 yrs i've been doing it.

Paddles B'mere said..
Hey cammd, I reckon it depends on what windsurfing you do. If you're into it as a competitive sport then for sure, it's on a par with a lot of other competitive sports and cheaper than many. But as a family recreational watersports activity it is still relatively expensive compared to the other options and the "industry" has done little to close the gap to other cheap, mass produced, family water craft like rotomolded kayaks, SUPs, boogie boards and surfboards.

You cant be everything to everyone, if windsurfing depends on competing on a price point with a boogie board then its doomed but I think your wrong, its not price that is the barrier its just what interests people.

Windsurfing is a mature sport and its a niche one at that, the days of it being a Fad and appealing to the masses are long gone.

Absolutely right cammd, as a "niche" activity it's not that expensive (compared to say buying a new MX bike every few years as an example); but as a "mainstream" activity it is way more expensive than many other family water sport activities when it comes to price. And that has to be a large contributing factor to it not appealing to the masses any more.

since I started windsurfing there have been numerous sports invented and therefore these have taken possible people away from the sport.
They include, kitesurfing, windsurfing, stand up paddle boarding etc.

Also the number of kids these days that stay home and play games is massive, all of these would contribute to the sports decline.

cammd said..
Francone I don't know what your talking about, windsurfing gear is not expensive, the bike shop over the roads from me has 12k bikes in the window to give you a comparison, how much is a pair of footy boots now and a ball, must be into the hundreds at least, as a sailing sport windsurfing is the cheapest. A $1500 windsurf sail is cheap compared to dinghy sails and the tech is far more advanced and they last longer in a competitive sense. The traditional dacron sails are "blown out" after one regatta in many classes, sure they are still good for training but have lost that competitive edge.

Maybe you don't want to race or compete and thats fine but many do and we wear gear out, there is no way a sail from the 90's is going to see a season out of racing every week. Wearing gear out is a good thing as well, it means its getting used. The other side of competitioon is the community that gets built up around it, not just locally but nationally and internationally as well

Windsurfing has always been a tech sport as well, right from the start windsurfers have been innovating looking for more performance and improvements and not just the manufacturer's but ther sailors themselves, look at the old photos of guys in waves on custom boards they built themselves or altering the rocker line on old WOD's by heating them in the sun for example.

Windsurfing is a innovative sport, its always been at the cutting edge of sailing tech, that is the windsurfing tradition.

You may be right, but each one of us speaks from his/her own perspective, based on personal taste, age and location.

Places like Australia, blessed by warm climate and by the ubiquitous ocean surrounding it, or the tropics or even Southern Europe, like Italy, where I come from, are more likely to keep windsurfing alive and you may still see many windsurfers around, getting the impression that this sport is still alive and well, but I am in Canada.

Unfortunately, this country, for all its astounding beauty, freezes over six months a year. The real summer, with almost semi-tropical conditions( in places), ideal for windsurfing, is short lived, unless you are willing to extend it by braving the early spring or late fall waters with thick, subarctic wet-suits or even dry suits..

To everybody his way of having fun.., but when I see North-European windsurfers sailing in the Baltic sea with..parkas or winter caps, I go into hypothermia just by looking .

Indeed, the impression that windsurfing is in decline is very tangible in Canada: beautiful lakes, once filled with windsurfers from spring to fall, are now empty, except a few kayakers and even fewer kitesurfers..

About the question of the high cost of equipment, this too, is relative, but here is what I talking about...
As usual, when you have the money, nothing is really expensive. In our free market economy, there are no right o wrong prices, because the ultimate criterion are the laws of offer and demand..

Still,and here is my point, even by these sacrosanct laws, manufacturers would still thrive and more people would be encouraged to get into windsurfing if the profit didn't make such a substantial part of the selling price.or the costs were not inflated by an indiscriminate race towards technology, which not everybody really needs, but which , in the end, everybody, beginner or not, must pay for.

Some windsurfing gear is made overseas, in China, Thailand, Vietnam or other cheap labor places. A sail that probably cost only a few dollars in Asia is now sold in the affluent western markets for $ 1000 or more .
Hard to believe that the manufacturer could not sell it for substantially less, ..say $500 or even less, and still recover his costs ( R&D and other) in addition to making a healthy profit, far from the 1000% margin it actually made by having it subcontracted to an Asian laborer....

Moving away from sheer greed, under the complacent banner of the free market and its law of offer and demand, is only a part of what the windsurfing industry could an should have done to keep windsurfing alive and ..didn't do.

I really wonder how much the cost of carbon and the wage of the Asian laborer account for in the price of a carbon foil made in China or Vietnam and sold in the western markets for $ 1500 by Starboard or other leading manufacturers.

Francone

Chris 249 said..

cammd said..
Francone I don't know what your talking about, windsurfing gear is not expensive, the bike shop over the roads from me has 12k bikes in the window to give you a comparison, how much is a pair of footy boots now and a ball, must be into the hundreds at least, as a sailing sport windsurfing is the cheapest. A $1500 windsurf sail is cheap compared to dinghy sails and the tech is far more advanced and they last longer in a competitive sense. The traditional dacron sails are "blown out" after one regatta in many classes, sure they are still good for training but have lost that competitive edge.

Maybe you don't want to race or compete and thats fine but many do and we wear gear out, there is no way a sail from the 90's is going to see a season out of racing every week. Wearing gear out is a good thing as well, it means its getting used. The other side of competitioon is the community that gets built up around it, not just locally but nationally and internationally as well

Windsurfing has always been a tech sport as well, right from the start windsurfers have been innovating looking for more performance and improvements and not just the manufacturer's but ther sailors themselves, look at the old photos of guys in waves on custom boards they built themselves or altering the rocker line on old WOD's by heating them in the sun for example.

Windsurfing is a innovative sport, its always been at the cutting edge of sailing tech, that is the windsurfing tradition.

Those $12k bikes are known as "halo bikes" and are outsold by "normal" high-end road bikes by 40 to 1 or so. No one in cycling pretends that the typical cyclist, even a keen one, will spend anything like $12k. At the club I was at in Sydney, for example, a bike that sold for about $900 new and complete could win the B Grade club championship, in a club that ran from A to D grades.

To give another example, at my club in Canberra the most popular track bike was the $1599 (new) Principia/Pro Lite. Sure, track bikes are cheaper than road bikes but on the other hand it was a Masters club and old guys are known for spending money on their kit. The same club banned time trial bikes from the major event, so that people who only had one bike would be competitive. Plenty of people had exxy bikes but the basic ethos of the cycling clubs I've been in is much less about the "need" for expensive kit than there is in windsurfing.

Windsurfing sails are NOT "cheap compared to dinghy sails". The most popular dinghy sail in the world (according to Julian Bethwaite of 49er and 29er fame) is the Laser Radial sail, which is $810, and that's often considered too expensive. Many Laser sailors opt for the copy unlicensed sails which are $279. Please advise us which windsurfer sail looks cheap compared to a $279 sail or a $810 one. Nor are even these sails "blown out" after one regatta - Mark Bethwaite is a Rich Lister but still used the very same sail to win three Laser Masters world titles.

The tech is not more advanced than in development-class dinghy sails. Why on earth would it be? The development class boat guys tend to have a much more individualised development programme, and they are often happy to spend money. They use much of the same materials development as the yachties, who will spend up to $250,000 per sail. Some dinghy sails are 3di construction, where the entire sail is laid out on a three-dimensional mould and then laid up with carbon and aramid filaments.

Windsurfing wasn't very oriented towards development from the start. The early days were very much about OD sailing. The NSW club census of the time, for example, shows that a very high proportion of adult dinghy sailors of the time were in development classes like Moths and NS14s- much higher than we had in windsurfing. Sure, there was a small proportion of sailors who were into development but in the early days the emphasis was very much on production gear.

Nor has the sport "always been at the cutting edge of sailing tech"; look at a "high tech" 1980 windsurfer sail compared to a "high tech" 1980 yacht or skiff sail. Even by the mid '80s peak, windsurfing tech lagged behind yacht and skiff tech. Whether it is ahead nowadays is an open question. It's hard to say that a typical foiler or Raceboard is closer to the cutting edge than an A Class cat or Moth.

Chill Chris, the bike was just a comparison to show that sports that use gear cost money, is was not an attack on cycling

$1500 is cheap for a sail, what's the cost of sails for all the other Olympic class's, I bet the windsurfer sail is below the average. Just because its not THE cheapest doesn't mean its not cheap

I think your splitting hairs regarding the tech side of windsurfing, I note you mention "development" dinghy classes to support your reply. I never said windsurfing is the most cutting edge, I never said its the only cutting edge, all I said is winsdurfers have always looked to improve performance through innovation, that doesn't mean every sailor, but looking at pics of the old days its pretty clear people were trying different stuff very early on.

Chris 249 said..

Madge said..
since I started windsurfing there have been numerous sports invented and therefore these have taken possible people away from the sport.
They include, kitesurfing, windsurfing, stand up paddle boarding etc.

Also the number of kids these days that stay home and play games is massive, all of these would contribute to the sports decline.

Yes, but on the other hand there are also sports that have declined, therefore possibly leaving people "free" to take up windsurfing. When windsurfing was booming, so were yachts, beach cats, squash, mountain bikes, tennis, snooker (remember "Pot Black", or 18.5 million people tuning into the worlds final?), running (the enormously popular Jim Fixx book came out about the same time the windsurfing boom took off) and even lawn bowls. While participation in sports in general is declining, some sports have done well and others, like windsurfing, have not.

Gaming is massive now, but it was booming when windsurfing was also booming, and had a massive crash in the mid '80s. The thing that I find interesting is that game designers have learned lessons from psychology that they use in their games - lessons that windsurfing actually goes against. Arguably if windsurfing learned from gaming instead of ignoring the lessons we can learn from it, windsurfing would be quite different and much more popular. There are plenty of books on game design in any uni library, and plenty of game designers and comp sci academics can show how much applied psychology there is in gaming, and how the current model of windsurfing breaks those rules to its own loss.

Finally, in Australia the population has increased by ten million people since windsurfing peaked. There's 158% as many people as there was, and many of them come from "sailing countries" like England, NZ and Italy, so even with people drifting into other sports there was room for windsurfing to hold onto its numbers fairly well.

What are the rules you mention, what lesson can windsurfing learn from gaming?

78 Francone you're a f@#ken legend. I'm seeing an increase in w'surfing. Also seen an increase in young wanting to sail proud of the "retro" gear they've purchased and enjoying it for what it was.
guess it's similar to the return of long boards in surfing.
at every level limits get pushed but you don't have too.
I'm stoked that limits are pushed, R and D exists, equipment gets continually assessed and updated, it keeps the passion.
my gear is old and it works fine for the level I'm happy at.
78! man I hope I'm still rigging, sailing and .

cammd said..

Chris 249 said..

Madge said..
since I started windsurfing there have been numerous sports invented and therefore these have taken possible people away from the sport.
They include, kitesurfing, windsurfing, stand up paddle boarding etc.

Also the number of kids these days that stay home and play games is massive, all of these would contribute to the sports decline.

Yes, but on the other hand there are also sports that have declined, therefore possibly leaving people "free" to take up windsurfing. When windsurfing was booming, so were yachts, beach cats, squash, mountain bikes, tennis, snooker (remember "Pot Black", or 18.5 million people tuning into the worlds final?), running (the enormously popular Jim Fixx book came out about the same time the windsurfing boom took off) and even lawn bowls. While participation in sports in general is declining, some sports have done well and others, like windsurfing, have not.

Gaming is massive now, but it was booming when windsurfing was also booming, and had a massive crash in the mid '80s. The thing that I find interesting is that game designers have learned lessons from psychology that they use in their games - lessons that windsurfing actually goes against. Arguably if windsurfing learned from gaming instead of ignoring the lessons we can learn from it, windsurfing would be quite different and much more popular. There are plenty of books on game design in any uni library, and plenty of game designers and comp sci academics can show how much applied psychology there is in gaming, and how the current model of windsurfing breaks those rules to its own loss.

Finally, in Australia the population has increased by ten million people since windsurfing peaked. There's 158% as many people as there was, and many of them come from "sailing countries" like England, NZ and Italy, so even with people drifting into other sports there was room for windsurfing to hold onto its numbers fairly well.

What are the rules you mention, what lesson can windsurfing learn from gaming?

I'm no expert and the stuff I researched on this is on an old computer. But here are some recollections.

Perhaps the most important one is actually studying the design of the activity and the reasons why people are motivated to do it, rather than largely concentrating on technical "improvements" in the gear. In a related way, it's interesting that the most successful sailing classes were designed around (or succeeded because of) a need or desire in society, not for a technical improvement in performance.

Another major point that computer game designers speak of is accessibility; being able to do the activity without great difficulty and cost. Windsurfing and sailing are both problematic in some ways here, but the sport also frames itself in a way that makes it harder to do. When windsurfing was growing, one normally "went windsurfing" by driving to a local beach and sailing whenever you got there. It was easy to "become a windsurfer". Compare that, for example, to the way people argue that longboards on flat water and in light winds "isn't windsurfing". That means that someone can't "go for a windsurf" on a typical afternoon on a small lake; to "go for a windsurf" you need a season or two of training, medium to strong winds, and fairly open water.

In contrast, while I can't "do" computer games like my kids do, I still "win" on them. They are designed to ensure that we all can, just like windsurfing was in its early stages.

The need for positive reinforcement is linked to accessibility. When we define and promote the sport by its more difficult (in some ways) disciplines then people will spend a long time failing before they get the positive reinforcement. A few years ago, a survey on Boards forum showed that something like 50% of windsurfers there could not reliably carve a gybe, and yet that's a pretty basic move. So half of even keen, committed experienced windsurfers are getting negative reinforcement by failing to do a move that's classified as basic.

A third is learning from successful examples. Game designers write of ancient games like Go and Chess with a great deal of respect, and learn from them. Contrast that to the way that people in windsurfing commonly speak and think of earlier windsurfers. Those of us who treat early windsurfing like game designers treat chess - as a success we can learn from - are generally derided for it.

Game designers are also fanbois of successful game designers; again, they appear to be trying to learn from them rather than deriding them. The Laser dinghy's designers are not treated in the same way as (say) Toru Iwatami (creator of PacMan) is, and the Laser is rarely looked at as an example of a successful sailing class like PacMan is seen as a successful game.

There's lots of other stuff, such as providing affordances and clues that allow players to work out how to get to the next level. How they can be applied to windsurfing is interesting. The fact that we just ignore all this stuff but complain that those who think about it are attracting players is odd.

If the sport is to grow again then it needs to be sold to schools, the more kids that participation the better.

I feel cost is not the barrier stopping new comers
I think windsurfing was more expensive relative to the average person's incomes back in the 1980s
I didn't have much money or equipment back then but what i did buy cost lots, so in the end i had to make some of my own stuff so i could afford to do it

kato said..
If windsurfing stayed as a OD we would have missed out on all the great improvements. I thought I'd list them but there's just too many.
Good luck to all who enjoy the crap sail and heavy board but I'll stick to the modern gear and having fun. Yes I run with a F&$king big trailer but it has all my toys for the beach and I never miss out cos something's left at home. No wind to lots and yes it does cost $$ but what doesn't and you can play all day. Some of my stuff is 10 yrs old and in today's $ a 3.5k board that's lasted gets me $350 per yr enjoyment. Hate to think what it's per km
Perhaps the death of our sport is due to the pursuit of attracting youth to the sport. Don't drive, have money or the time to drop everything to sail. The beauty of our sport is that there is no timetable of when you can play. Just add wind.
Basketball , footy netball etc all have set times and seasons and you retire in your 30/40s.Perhaps that's our market, not youth and not triangle racing on old crap. OD kills innovation, remember the quick cat or the moth yachts ? What survived and why is sailing still in decline?

I'll just stick to having fun and sailing on my own.....it's COVID safe too

I don't think you better use the" moth yacht" to emephise your point. makes you seem a bit out of touch with what is high teck sailing

yeah sorry must have missed your point, are you saying developmental classes are bigger then OD?very distant memory of quick cats at Kirra a long time ago.