Select to expand quotegorgesailor said..MatStirl said..gorgesailor said..Francone said..
Still,and here is my point, even by these sacrosanct laws, manufacturers would still thrive and more people would be encouraged to get into windsurfing if the profit didn't make such a substantial part of the selling price.or the costs were not inflated by an indiscriminate race towards technology, which not everybody really needs, but which , in the end, everybody, beginner or not, must pay for.
Some windsurfing gear is made overseas, in China, Thailand, Vietnam or other cheap labor places. A sail that probably cost only a few dollars in Asia is now sold in the affluent western markets for $ 1000 or more .
Hard to believe that the manufacturer could not sell it for substantially less, ..say $500 or even less, and still recover his costs ( R&D and other) in addition to making a healthy profit, far from the 1000% margin it actually made by having it subcontracted to an Asian laborer....
Moving away from sheer greed, under the complacent banner of the free market and its law of offer and demand, is only a part of what the windsurfing industry could an should have done to keep windsurfing alive and ..didn't do.
I really wonder how much the cost of carbon and the wage of the Asian laborer account for in the price of a carbon foil made in China or Vietnam and sold in the western markets for $ 1500 by Starboard or other leading manufacturers.
Francone
First of all respect for still being passionate about this sport we all love! ... Secondly, For someone who has lived so long, you are incredibly ignorant of the realities of business. In fact the profit margins for windsurfing gear are incredibly small & shrinking year by year. The real money in Windsurfing was made back in the heyday of the 80's & 90's when everything was so "simple" & "inexpensive". Though gear was cheaper "back in the day" profits were actually much higher. The fact is, basic inflation as well as the ever increasing skill & Technology required to produce modern gear has caused prices to rise. Your 1,000% margin is actually more like 30% from distributor to dealer then another 30% to the retailer which leaves precious little for the shop to make any money. Your $1,000 sail may have cost the distributor nearly $400 even with "Cheap" Asian labor. The materials are not cheap & the factories that make boards, sails, masts, booms etc are very specialized with highly skilled labor force. The fact is the few remaining Windsurfing companies are run by individuals & teams who Love Windsurfing, they are passionate about it... If they weren't, they would be doing something more profitable.
Suggest we get our points across without unnecessarily taking at dig at someone who is older and probably wiser than most of us.
I apologize. I will re-word it - I only intended to educate... But his comment is so far removed from reality - a reality that is my life & that of my associates in the industry... I take it quite personally that anyone could think we are fleecing the public for some huge profits is not only laughable but offensive.
Fair call, Gorge. Even in the heyday, the industry was driven very heavily by passion rather than profit.
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..cammd said..MatStirl said..
There should be 1 x universal beginner/race board (LT - keep it simple stupid).
The Techno 293OD is the closest thing to a universal beginner/race board, the class is established on every continent and has massive participation etc etc etc.
Your arguement for having one universal beginner/race board is shot down down by itself by arguing for a new board that would dilute the already established one.
Personally I think each class/board should live or die on its merits, let sailors decide what they want to sail.
The T293, while a fine class, is not a "universal race board" because it's aimed at for medium to lightweights and is very much still a kids or youth board, as the marketing (and weight range) says. There were fewer than 19 open-age sailors at the T293+ worlds, mainly Japanese, and only 19 youths. The total fleet was 38 sailors, for an event in Europe. That's not very close to a major universal class. I can't work out why some of the "open age" sailors were put in the Open group, since the top two (for example) were both still racing Youth class in other regattas at the time, so there were in fact fewer than 19 "adult" sailors. The T293+ isn't attracting many adults and therefore is not really "universal".
The Techno class is also diluting itself by countries like Germany now officially promoting the IQFoil and the Techno Windfoil 130 for everyone over 17, and (from what I can see) World Sailing and the Techno class itself promoting the all new foiling kit. So the Techno 293 is not looking to be very close to a universal class itself much longer.
I agree
But I am not arguing for a T293 vs something else "universal board", "let sailors decide what they want to sail"
I disagree with Matstirl when he advocates for one universal board and scrap the rest and I think the argument in favour of that contradicts itself.
Select to expand quotecammd said..Chris 249 said..cammd said..MatStirl said..
There should be 1 x universal beginner/race board (LT - keep it simple stupid).
The Techno 293OD is the closest thing to a universal beginner/race board, the class is established on every continent and has massive participation etc etc etc.
Your arguement for having one universal beginner/race board is shot down down by itself by arguing for a new board that would dilute the already established one.
Personally I think each class/board should live or die on its merits, let sailors decide what they want to sail.
The T293, while a fine class, is not a "universal race board" because it's aimed at for medium to lightweights and is very much still a kids or youth board, as the marketing (and weight range) says. There were fewer than 19 open-age sailors at the T293+ worlds, mainly Japanese, and only 19 youths. The total fleet was 38 sailors, for an event in Europe. That's not very close to a major universal class. I can't work out why some of the "open age" sailors were put in the Open group, since the top two (for example) were both still racing Youth class in other regattas at the time, so there were in fact fewer than 19 "adult" sailors. The T293+ isn't attracting many adults and therefore is not really "universal".
The Techno class is also diluting itself by countries like Germany now officially promoting the IQFoil and the Techno Windfoil 130 for everyone over 17, and (from what I can see) World Sailing and the Techno class itself promoting the all new foiling kit. So the Techno 293 is not looking to be very close to a universal class itself much longer.
OMG its not a T293 vs something else argument, did you miss the last sentence, "let sailors decide what they want to sail"
Just noting that a class that is aimed at young sailors and is also promoting another board isn't universal.
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..cammd said..Chris 249 said..cammd said..MatStirl said..
There should be 1 x universal beginner/race board (LT - keep it simple stupid).
The Techno 293OD is the closest thing to a universal beginner/race board, the class is established on every continent and has massive participation etc etc etc.
Your arguement for having one universal beginner/race board is shot down down by itself by arguing for a new board that would dilute the already established one.
Personally I think each class/board should live or die on its merits, let sailors decide what they want to sail.
The T293, while a fine class, is not a "universal race board" because it's aimed at for medium to lightweights and is very much still a kids or youth board, as the marketing (and weight range) says. There were fewer than 19 open-age sailors at the T293+ worlds, mainly Japanese, and only 19 youths. The total fleet was 38 sailors, for an event in Europe. That's not very close to a major universal class. I can't work out why some of the "open age" sailors were put in the Open group, since the top two (for example) were both still racing Youth class in other regattas at the time, so there were in fact fewer than 19 "adult" sailors. The T293+ isn't attracting many adults and therefore is not really "universal".
The Techno class is also diluting itself by countries like Germany now officially promoting the IQFoil and the Techno Windfoil 130 for everyone over 17, and (from what I can see) World Sailing and the Techno class itself promoting the all new foiling kit. So the Techno 293 is not looking to be very close to a universal class itself much longer.
OMG its not a T293 vs something else argument, did you miss the last sentence, "let sailors decide what they want to sail"
Where the hell did I say that the sailors shouldn't decide what to sail? Where did I argue against the T293? How the hell is praising something (I said it's a fine class) arguing against it?
All I pointed out was that a class that is aimed at young sailors and is also promoting another board is NOT universal, because that is the truth.
Sorry Chris I changed my post because I didnt like what I said
I changed mine too. :-)
There's nothing wrong with having different classes that don't compete against each other.
Cheers
Select to expand quoteJohn340 said..windsufering said..
The Windsurfer is going well, please stop tarnishing it's name with other forms of sail boarding !
Windsurfing International claimed trademark rights with respect to the word "windsurfer". While this was registered in the United States for some years, it was not accepted for registration in many jurisdictions as the word was considered too descriptive. Registration was ultimately lost in the United States for the same reason.The Schweitzers initially chose the word for its descriptive quality. Unfortunately they immediately set out diminishing its value by naming their company "Windsurfing International" and even referring to themselves and their own children as "windsurfers". History would reveal that this nomenclature from Schweitzer did indeed become the universally accepted way of describing the sport, the participants, and the equivalent. As the word was rejected as legally registrable for patent purposes in a number of countries, lawyers advised that to be successful the word would have to be used as a proper adjective. They realised that this required a number of generic nouns to which the adjective would apply: sailboard, boardsailing, planche a voile, segelbrett and so on. The rearguard action was ultimately unsuccessful and arguably created considerable confusion which hampered marketing efforts in later years. Today the word windsurfer is completely dominant around the world.
Sail Melbourne got confused when a certain class claimed it was a certain type of Windsurfer !
Fun discussion! This kick ass sport will never die! Here's my point of view...
At 44 yrs old, I've spent the majority of my life climbing. When I say climbing, I mean bouldering, sport climbing, trad climbing, big wall climbing, ice climbing, alpine climbing, mountaineering, hell.... even climbing the tallest tree around! This too is an expensive sport as one needs to purchase all of the technical equipment to ascend/descend vertical faces safely and efficiently. That said, we are also seeing a decline in all of the hard, technical disciplines of the sport. Kids these days are strong boulderers and gym climbers. But, we rarely ever see them in the alpine or big wall arena. In my opinion, this relates to 1) cost and 2) they are LAZY! If they can't have everything right now, then they don't want it! It's just the way it is.
How does this relate to windsurfing....same thing... 1) cost and 2) they are LAZY!
I didn't learn to windsurf until I was 40 yrs old. Yes, that's only 4 years ago. This freakin' sport is HARD to learn! But I am absolutely hooked and I will never look back. What an amazing feeling blasting across the water at 25 kts and carving into a huge arching turn. Unreal. Admittedly, I am a waterman and I enjoy all aspects of watersports. I come from the raft guide, whitewater kayaking, and surfing background. But, that said, I still find this amazing windsurfing sport very difficult to learn! My skills are coming along, but I dedicate 30-50 days per year to it and obsessively study and learn as much as time allows.
Yes, it is expensive. But, like others have pointed out here, every technical sport is expensive. It's all relative. Look at how much those trendy hipsters spend on jeans that are already ripped!?!?!? It's all good man. Keep sailing, keep smiling, and keep living every day like it's your last. This sport will never die. Sure, there are less participants, but enjoy it for what it is. We're not curing cancer here, just ripping around on the water with the wind, waves, and a few good friends.
Cheers!
Select to expand quotecammd said..MatStirl said..
There should be 1 x universal beginner/race board (LT - keep it simple stupid).
The Techno 293OD is the closest thing to a universal beginner/race board, the class is established on every continent and has massive participation etc etc etc.
Your arguement for having one universal beginner/race board is shot down down by itself by arguing for a new board that would dilute the already established one.
Personally I think each class/board should live or die on its merits, let sailors decide what they want to sail.
Good point about the Techno.
Worldwide junior class, nearly bought one and would be happy to race it if anyone else in Tas did. Unfortunately no one does. Also doesn't suit heavy guys too well - or older folks because of the rig weight.
As exciting as it is, the Qfoil is just the latest fad/development in the sport depending on how you look at things. Rather than bringing in new windsurfers I can see it eating into existing Techno fleets as it appeals to similar young, albeit slightly even wealthier demographic. At least it's one design mind you. Nothing more frustrating in racing than getting beaten by the richer guy..or maybe he's also better?
LT isn't perfect (would actually rather sail a raceboard or that other hydrid raceboard launched recently and doomed to fail - forget the name).
I bought the LT only because I wanted a cheap bit of gear that I knew others would race. Also a bit more versatile and better suited to beginners (the future of windsurfing). More people have quizzed me about it in 18 months than the last 15 years of shortboarding. Maybe that's partly because I'm at the beach sailing with the family on the light days - again not a bad thing to give the sport exposure.
If manufacturers and the market continues to drive the sport that's fine. I'd suggest the sport would be better off however - especially in the racing scene if we had larger fleets of less classes. Expect Australian Sailing have a similar desire in the dinghy scene.
Mat at racing yesterday afternoon, first race in the season point score we had is IQ foils, formula foils, race boards, rsx and a LT, something for everyone, if it was only one class I expect the numbers in the board fleet would have been halved. No techno unfortunately even though we all started under a techno flag. That's ok it just means we have some work to do to bring in more youth.
Today is slalom racing day, most of the course racers from yesterday will jump onto slalom/freerace gear and join everyone else in some slalom races.
Select to expand quotecammd said..
I thought attributing a decline in windsurfing to the "sheer greed" of the industry was not only incorrect but very harsh as well so not surprised anyone in the industry would be offended by that comment.
Yes, while that is too harsh in general, it is true that modern new windsurfing boards from the big name mass producers are WAY too expensive for what they are IMHO.
But there are always a tradeoffs.
Pro racing and wave competition team cost a LOT of money to support.
R&D and brand/product promotions can be done in ways which make it VERY expensive, or can be done less expensively.
The cost between the factory and the end user is usually the next greatest contributor to the final price. Distribution models vary and are changing, but they are delicate trade off as well, between having stock in actual shops available at a purchasing whim (usually with help, advice and support from the shop), or longer waiting times via online shops, or other models.
A greater diversity of models and brand produces larger range of choice, but at a significant cost in a small market pool.
ETC.
(BTW, I dont have any answers either) 
Select to expand quotesegler said..
A big part of the increase has been due to the tireless efforts of several leaders and mentors in the Seattle area. Good going, guys and gals.
This bit has me intrigued.
What is the nature of these efforts? 
IMHO, finding how to do this is the holy grail. 
Snowboarding was supposed to be the end of skiing when all younger generation moved to snowboard ... was more accessible and more fun (similar to windsurf moving to kitesurf)
But then ski industry made some innovations with the gear to pick some attributes from snowboard (carving, larger ski, double tip, ...), and the momentum picked up immediately supported by pro-riders making attractive videos
Could be the same for windsurfing, unfortunately no real innovations since kitesurf took over ... it is even worse with foil and wing coming from the kitesurf industry, and sold as an innovation from themselves
Francone, Windsurfing is growing in Canada, at least where I live. My friend has a shop and he bought a container of beginner gear and he sold everything . beginner equipment don't last a day on selling fb group etc.
Select to expand quoteMatStirl said..gorgesailor said..Francone said..
Still,and here is my point, even by these sacrosanct laws, manufacturers would still thrive and more people would be encouraged to get into windsurfing if the profit didn't make such a substantial part of the selling price.or the costs were not inflated by an indiscriminate race towards technology, which not everybody really needs, but which , in the end, everybody, beginner or not, must pay for.
Some windsurfing gear is made overseas, in China, Thailand, Vietnam or other cheap labor places. A sail that probably cost only a few dollars in Asia is now sold in the affluent western markets for $ 1000 or more .
Hard to believe that the manufacturer could not sell it for substantially less, ..say $500 or even less, and still recover his costs ( R&D and other) in addition to making a healthy profit, far from the 1000% margin it actually made by having it subcontracted to an Asian laborer....
Moving away from sheer greed, under the complacent banner of the free market and its law of offer and demand, is only a part of what the windsurfing industry could an should have done to keep windsurfing alive and ..didn't do.
I really wonder how much the cost of carbon and the wage of the Asian laborer account for in the price of a carbon foil made in China or Vietnam and sold in the western markets for $ 1500 by Starboard or other leading manufacturers.
Francone
First of all respect for still being passionate about this sport we all love! ... Secondly, For someone who has lived so long, you are incredibly ignorant of the realities of business. In fact the profit margins for windsurfing gear are incredibly small & shrinking year by year. The real money in Windsurfing was made back in the heyday of the 80's & 90's when everything was so "simple" & "inexpensive". Though gear was cheaper "back in the day" profits were actually much higher. The fact is, basic inflation as well as the ever increasing skill & Technology required to produce modern gear has caused prices to rise. Your 1,000% margin is actually more like 30% from distributor to dealer then another 30% to the retailer which leaves precious little for the shop to make any money. Your $1,000 sail may have cost the distributor nearly $400 even with "Cheap" Asian labor. The materials are not cheap & the factories that make boards, sails, masts, booms etc are very specialized with highly skilled labor force. The fact is the few remaining Windsurfing companies are run by individuals & teams who Love Windsurfing, they are passionate about it... If they weren't, they would be doing something more profitable.
Suggest we get our points across without unnecessarily taking at dig at someone who is older and probably wiser than most of us.
I think Gorgesailer, used ignorant , in the knowledge way. I see no disrespect in his post.
the OP , Francone, to those that read a lot of posts, has more than his share of odd questions, removing battens being but one. For one who must have some knowledge, what size sail will work , another.
the only cure for the decline of windsurfing is to instill the youth and hook them as we were.
The profit margins from the 80s are like what a car cost then.
Type away , you aren't going to change it but doing that
What I am seeing is that windsurfing has been "enhanced" by foils. Business and participation have both increased quite a lot by the foil.
Since all the gear is pretty much the same (boards and sails) between windsurfing and windfoiling, it is easy to lump the foil in the the "windsurf" grouping of the water sports. Kiteboarding and wingdinging (both with or without foils) are clearly in different groups.
Yes, of course, you see windsurfing gear that is tuned or targeted to foiling versus finning, but it mostly overlaps a lot. That said, we know that windfoiling is a completely different sport from windsurfing when it comes to the dynamics of moving across the water.
So, if we want to see the sport(s) thrive and grow, get out there and be a mentor/instructor. Be friendly and sell your sport to all those people on the beach who ask you questions. Smile.
And no, we don't need warfare between windsurfing and kiteboarding.
It's all good. It's up to us to maintain the health of our beloved water sports.
I get a LOT of questions at the beach when I'm foiling and I definitely don't make it look easy. Most people are disappointed when I say that you probably need to learn a fair amount of regular windsurfing skills before grabbing the foil.
I think the questions happen because I go out in conditions which are still pleasant for beachgoers and also launch from a popular beach. The better wind spots around here are more rocky and you tend to sail further out.
I know the Seattle crew that Segler is talking about and they are amazing for getting new sailors out via both online presence and clubs with introductory courses. It should be noted that in most of Seattle its impossible to kite and planing conditions with a fin are rare, but foiling has been a revolution. A few locals have tried to get first Kona then LT fleets going but there just isn't interest compared to foiling.
Jp has come out with a Monster board. It looks like fun. That thing is huge! The whole family can windsurf on it at one time.
Wind surfing will never be as big again as it was in the 80s, I remember driving along the metro coast and there were people windsurfing every where.
The sport has gone through a cycle just like many other sports, remember surf skis etc.
Robby Naish used to be on German TV all the time, he even started to learn to speak German...well hes still around and so are a few windsurfers,
It takes persistence are a bit of character to learn the sport and a **** load of talent to be really great at it.
Wind surfing can be the king of all water sports, unfortunately fashion dictates the times and the world is a changing place, be happy that there are still some people out there slogging it out in the metro beach mush, dreaming of a week of Gnaraloo
It's not the fun part to be great at windsurfing, it's to escape from reality for awhile, feel the wind, have the water take your breath away when you fall in.
To be honest: i could not care less about the number of people who are windsurfing or surfing or kiting or winging or wind-foiling or surf-foiling or kite-foiling or supping or wind-supping ... or playing football or soccer or skying or basket-balling or cricketing or chessing or go-ing or going for a walk or playing "bocce", "scopa" or "scala quaranta" ...
There are a touch of more important things in life than the number of people recreating doing this or that ...
Select to expand quoteduzzi said..
To be honest: i could not care less about the number of people who are windsurfing or surfing or kiting or winging or wind-foiling or surf-foiling or kite-foiling or supping or wind-supping ... or playing football or soccer or skying or basket-balling or cricketing or chessing or go-ing or going for a walk or playing "bocce", "scopa" or "scala quaranta" ...
There are a touch of more important things in life than the number of people recreating doing this or that ...
Didn't think I did either but spent 6 years in Mackay amongst up to 50 mainly bogan mining kiters and basically zero windsurfers. Felt like an alien. Also no shop because no windsurfers.
Got back to Tas and reasonable numbers of both. Less animosity because most kiters had windsurfed or were at least familiar with it and more fun cause could relate to the windsurfers.
Its easy to take a pessimistic view on any sport, especially an individual one. And especially if you're completely detached from the main scene and off doing your own thing.
the reality is there is a lot more going on in windsurfing over here in WA than what there was a even just a few years ago. We have a state slalom series every summer, with an average of around twenty sailors racing.
We have the windsurfer LTs racing at MBSC every weekend of summer and monthly over winter (its probably the biggest fleet in WA by a long shot, 30 + sailors.) and they're out all the time during the week training and just having fun. MBSC is also going to play host to the LT worlds next season when covid restrictions are lifted.
The foiling fleet here is growing, theres more and more juniors getting into it (and showing up us older sailors (little feckers 
)) and there is going to be racing this coming season.
this is not to mention all the regularly run events by the dedicated WWA volunteers like screamin leeman, cervantes windsurf challenge, and the State wave champs.
i don't mean to offend francone. I really hope to be doing as well as you at your age, but if you really think windsurfing is a dying sport, Then maybe you should get around more. Peli point in the middle of summer on a 20knot day, windsurfers are floating around waiting for the already surrounded picnickers to p***s off, so they can unroll 2 more sails where they were sitting. But if you rock up at say city beach, on a cold windless 5 knot winters day, you're probably going to be sailing on your own.
If you really want to limit yourself to "traditional windsurfing" then why not get an LT and join the fleet at mounts bay? Maybe then you'll see the reality.
Want to develop traditional windsurfing ? Join your local yacht club such as Mounts Bay Sailing Club for example and grow a racing fleet of windsurfers eg Techno, Windsurfer LT, Raceboard and Foil. That is how you grow participation and how you build fleets. I can see Open Bic, Flying Ant or Optimist sailors for example at clubs all over WA wanting to progress and if they see fleets of the windsurfing craft racing then they transition to those rather than drop out of sailing altogether. In this way windsurfing grows just as it did in the 1980s when young first movers at yacht clubs got on board leaving Mirrors, Lasers, Flying Ants, 420s and Pelicans. It will never be as big as the 1980s as then everyone wanted to windsurf, no longer the case, but it can grow and develop and racing windsurfers (of many types) in clubs is the engine room of growth. Admittedly the LT is probably the best, simplest, quickest to rig, cheapest and most accessible all rounder, capable of sailing on any given Sunday and most likely to attract the biggest universal grass roots following but some want to tinker with the foil and race foil around the buoys and so we need all of these options. The skills of sailing the LT are transferable to all other types of windsurfing so it will grow the sport and people will move on to other disciplines if they have the desire. Not everyone wants to race but racing is an excellent training and way to improve and clubs are one of the best ways to produce windsurfers as it has always been the case.
Select to expand quoteMatStirl said..duzzi said..
To be honest: i could not care less about the number of people who are windsurfing or surfing or kiting or winging or wind-foiling or surf-foiling or kite-foiling or supping or wind-supping ... or playing football or soccer or skying or basket-balling or cricketing or chessing or go-ing or going for a walk or playing "bocce", "scopa" or "scala quaranta" ...
There are a touch of more important things in life than the number of people recreating doing this or that ...
Didn't think I did either but spent 6 years in Mackay amongst up to 50 mainly bogan mining kiters and basically zero windsurfers. Felt like an alien. Also no shop because no windsurfers.
Got back to Tas and reasonable numbers of both. Less animosity because most kiters had windsurfed or were at least familiar with it and more fun cause could relate to the windsurfers.
I had that experience in La Ventana, Mexico, that suddenly became a Kite Mecca, with windsurfers dwindling to a small minority. In that location it was easy enough to go sailing offshore by 300 yards to recover empty seas and stunning conditions. But in general I would not worry too much: judging by what is happening in San Francisco kiting will soon disappear and be taken over by the wingy thing. Much more pleasing to the eye.
