I've been watching TW Custom in Oslo for a while now because they are seriously pushing the limits, thinking well outside the box and introducing exciting new ideas about making gear. Like boards that weigh in at 4kg. Exciting stuff for someone like me that enjoys nerding out on this stuff. they also have the hipster harness I'm seriously excited about. recently, I changed from seat to waist and my take away is I lost a little bit of bottom end. Is the hipster the missing link..?
then this. breathable foam. boards that can be dried out.. Holy ****in **** Batman..mind blown.
www.facebook.com/p/TW-custom-100087146525299/
Interesting harness design. It looks like a waist harness, but is positioned on the bum ?
I think so.. I'm going to try and find out more.. one of the Japanese pwa riders is using one for wave sailing.
There is a patent doc on the website with diagrams etc that explains it. Looks like a combination seat/waist harness.
When I started at 37, I very briefly used a waist harness. It kaned my upper back to the point where it restricted my TOW. So, quickly switched to seat harness. Borrowed a mates in 2015 (he just brought a new style of waist harness). I lasted 1 run. I have another wave mate with same problem now. So I gave him an old seat harness, and he loves it. Back problem disappeared. Seat harnesses are good, but can be difficult to release lines when you need to in a pinch, plus effects boom height and harness line angle. Would this new invention be the best of both worlds ?. It looks like is sits pretty low though.
I am always very sceptical of weight claims, anyone can make a 4kg board. But lasting? For jumping too? In waveboards see the best 6kg fail and the 6.5 kg last better. I see those manufacturers who use CK over wood (like Patrik, RRD and Tabou), and they won't sell out to the weight chase, definitely have better longevity.
Building waveboards for heavy guys has been a revelation - where you think you beefed it up still fails after 2 seasons. Its still foam on foam with some brittle fibre....... and 2 tonnes thru the heels on landing. (cite source: Me. 
I saw 20g's on deliberate flat landings in the Gorge, so 2 tons thru 2 heels for a 100kg bloke is a practical guesstimate..... )
So you put more stuff in. Change processes etc. A 4kg DW board is fragile and ain't treated like a WS board. 4kg slalom boards get negative rocker just from flat water fastness.
So I call BS / prove it lasts.
Now easy to drain foam? FARK YEAH and every manufacturer (bar Appletree lol) is going to want to know. What is is?
I've always used seat harnesses including in the surf. But liked the freedom of the waist in the surf so ended up with both seat and waist . We get a lot of light wind and the waist just didn't get me going like the seat does as I can put much more downforce through the rig. So eventually ditched the waist cometely. Had a high wind session and my seat harness exploded on a reach so decided to give the waist a proper go full time . I kinda like it but mine is a little bulky. My son has been waist from the start and uses the severne which is a great design. Super minimal.. i was almost going to grab a severne however think I'll try this now.
Lower back issues the seat I think is much better for sure.. seat with a higher hook works great.
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..
I am always very sceptical of weight claims, anyone can make a 4kg board. But lasting? For jumping too? In waveboards see the best 6kg fail and the 6.5 kg last better. I see those manufacturers who use CK over wood (like Patrik, RRD and Tabou), and they won't sell out to the weight chase, definitely have better longevity.
Building waveboards for heavy guys has been a revelation - where you think you beefed it up still fails after 2 seasons. Its still foam on foam with some brittle fibre....... and 2 tonnes thru the heels on landing. (cite source: Me. I saw 20g's on deliberate flat landings in the Gorge, so 2 tons thru 2 heels for a 100kg bloke is a practical guesstimate..... )
So you put more stuff in. Change processes etc. A 4kg DW board is fragile and ain't treated like a WS board. 4kg slalom boards get negative rocker just from flat water fastness.
So I call BS / prove it lasts.
Now easy to drain foam? FARK YEAH and every manufacturer (bar Appletree lol) is going to want to know. What is is?
he lays it all out on the Facebook page and openly says he doesn't need to keep secrets . Over a few seasons he's gradually reduced board weight. No doubt the pendulum will swing to far at some point but I like his process of trying and testing. He's not just making **** up. Someone in one post tried to suggest it was click bait and ai...
I believe the weight savings may be in the foam blank.. adding holes possibly.. he talks of this as a solution on a mod. Also the foam he's using looks unlike anything I've seen before.
I know someone else who removes foam on his timber strip sup builds so the foam is permanent form only..
I'm going to give this a go on my next build.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said.. he lays it all out on the Facebook page and openly says he doesn't need to keep secrets .
I'm not seeing it.....? Clicked on 'see more' on heaps of the posts
Select to expand quotegh said..
I have a Liberty harness which I am super impressed with.
Good one. I think there is also the drake one or is that the same as the liberty. Looks the same.
Do you find it bulky?
Select to expand quoteMark _australia said..Gestalt said.. he lays it all out on the Facebook page and openly says he doesn't need to keep secrets .
I'm not seeing it.....? Clicked on 'see more' on heaps of the posts
Puting the pieces together it looks like he's found or sourced a foam with a lot of holes in it for the blank and has saved a good part of the weight there. He may take it further and drill holes into the blank. He mentioned this porous foam has the advantage of allowing water to be vacuumed out.
He is a little more guarded about specific cloth orientation or location but leans heavily on carbon.
Shapes he says are based on flikka and kt.
NUP. you can drill a sh!t ton of holes in a blank and not lose much weight. At 1.3kg for a 100L waveboard blank in EPS, you have to remove a lot of foam for very little weight reduction. You can't make a waveboard almost 2kg lighter with just that. Leaving out fibre in many areas and lighter inserts like surf boxes will mean a massive reduction in durability.
Well it can't be done and yet there it is..
halve the weight of the blank, the core foam, use foam core as layin only not full wrap, spray the resin, use additives, be careful so you don't need too much bog, reduce weight of boxes, reduce weigh of pads, use 3/4 layups (A term I made up) etc etc.
clearly tw is looking hard at each piece of the puzzle. Can I say it works, nope but he's doing it so kudos to him.
fwiw flikka are also doing boards around 4kg in their lightest construction for smaller boards and make the point i think we both agree with to go easy on jumping.
FWIW part 2 I'm looking at next build being 120lt board at 6.3 kg no vac bag involved. At least thats what the maths says. Any mistakes during construction and the number goes up.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
I've been watching TW Custom in Oslo for a while now because they are seriously pushing the limits, thinking well outside the box and introducing exciting new ideas about making gear. Like boards that weigh in at 4kg. Exciting stuff for someone like me that enjoys nerding out on this stuff. they also have the hipster harness I'm seriously excited about. recently, I changed from seat to waist and my take away is I lost a little bit of bottom end. Is the hipster the missing link..?
then this. breathable foam. boards that can be dried out.. Holy ****in **** Batman..mind blown.
www.facebook.com/p/TW-custom-100087146525299/
For the harness he ties rope as straps to a regular waist harness to keep it from riding up. He likes it sitting right at his hip bone. Easy and simple to try. I do the same with a strap and really like it. Although I keep it an inch or two above the hip bone.
Is it really just a waist harness converted to a seat harness or something different..
Looks like the board core is a frame construction with standard PVC plates in different densities. That creates a hollow core which might be light but the tolerance against impacts will be lower compared to standard constructions. A construction like the picture below.
Yeah I'm not sure.. I think he's got a super light density foam with lots of voids in the foam because it's recycled.. I've done a reverse image search and can't find a supplier but there are references to speckled foam online.
the holes seemed to be a reference to making existing boards lighter when being repaired. Lots of small diameter holes would not cause too many undesirable loading issues. bigger holes yes..
on the Facebook page there is loads of fascinating information. He has weight calcs for the layups which gives an insight into the layers and some photos of how he arranges the carbon. plus sketches of where reinforcing occurs.
What i'm certain of is he is constantly evolving and moving forward, experimenting so putting all of this online is just really a capture in time. What is not shared are the resin details and techniques.. lots of weight to be saved there. His thoroughness in planning and recording and attention to detail is fantastic
I can see a lot of similarities to stuff I've been toying with but my technique had not allowed weights I'm trying to hit for hand layups so I'm working through how to Improve that side of things. Like tw I sketch everything out and detail new methodologies before trying them.. design background makes me lean into it.. plus it's fun. I also use surf boxes for front fins in multi finned boards and have no issues with them. The issue is finding 50/50 foiled surf fins.
being a plus size person I've got boards that have lasted 10 years because they were built to last. Double layer high density foam in the right spots etc. but they are too heavy ultimately for what I'm chasing now.. I'd rather a light board. Weight is everything. Boards are more nimble and planing thresholds lower. I truly believe boards have been over engineered not because they can't take the use but because factories have been outputting poorly built boards which keep failing. Name your brand.
Great stuff! I'd rather have a light board that only lasts a couple of seasons than a board that feels heavy under foot that lasts forever. It makes all the difference in the world, both in handling and feel. That said, my light boards seem to last forever although I'm not a heavy weight. I got rid of heavy boards as I don't like them.
Agree. I think you can see this with the mix of reviews of the jp fsw boards. The carbon ones get great comments the wood not so much. Same with the severne hd boards. Not a lot of love.
Speaking to the light thing. I have carbon freestyle boards bought used that are 6kg and 12 years old. 90-100 lt, Been driven hard before I got them . Looped etc.. and they are solid. That's 12 year old tech.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
Yeah I'm not sure.. I think he's got a super light density foam with lots of voids in the foam because it's recycled.. I've done a reverse image search and can't find a supplier but there are references to speckled foam online.
the holes seemed to be a reference to making existing boards lighter when being repaired. Lots of small diameter holes would not cause too many undesirable loading issues. bigger holes yes..
on the Facebook page there is loads of fascinating information. He has weight calcs for the layups which gives an insight into the layers and some photos of how he arranges the carbon. plus sketches of where reinforcing occurs.
'what i'm certain is he is constantly evolving and moving forward, experimenting so putting all of this online is just really a capture in time. What is not shared is the resin details and techniques.. lots of weight to be saved there. His thoroughness in planning and recording and attention to detail is fantastic
I can see a lot of similarities to stuff I've been toying with but my technique had not allowed weights I'm trying to hit for hand layups so I'm working through how to Improve that side of things. Like tw I sketch everything out and detail new methodologies before trying them.. design background makes me lean into it.. plus it's fun. I also use surf boxes for front fins in multi finned boards and have no issues with them. The issue is finding 50/50 foiled surf fins.
being a plus size person I've got boards that have lasted 10 years because they were built to last. Double layer high density foam in the right spots etc. but they are too heavy ultimately for what I'm chasing now.. I'd rather a light board. Weight is everything. Boards are more nimble and planing thresholds lower. I truly believe boards have been over engineered not because they can't take the use but because factories have been outputting poorly built boards which keep failing. Name your brand.
Don't know what size fins you need but there are many rear quad sets that are 50/50 foil like the AM,s.
My grom uses a medium quad rear Carver as a center in his thruster as a replacement for the loss of one.
Select to expand quoteRango said..Gestalt said..
Yeah I'm not sure.. I think he's got a super light density foam with lots of voids in the foam because it's recycled.. I've done a reverse image search and can't find a supplier but there are references to speckled foam online.
the holes seemed to be a reference to making existing boards lighter when being repaired. Lots of small diameter holes would not cause too many undesirable loading issues. bigger holes yes..
on the Facebook page there is loads of fascinating information. He has weight calcs for the layups which gives an insight into the layers and some photos of how he arranges the carbon. plus sketches of where reinforcing occurs.
'what i'm certain is he is constantly evolving and moving forward, experimenting so putting all of this online is just really a capture in time. What is not shared is the resin details and techniques.. lots of weight to be saved there. His thoroughness in planning and recording and attention to detail is fantastic
I can see a lot of similarities to stuff I've been toying with but my technique had not allowed weights I'm trying to hit for hand layups so I'm working through how to Improve that side of things. Like tw I sketch everything out and detail new methodologies before trying them.. design background makes me lean into it.. plus it's fun. I also use surf boxes for front fins in multi finned boards and have no issues with them. The issue is finding 50/50 foiled surf fins.
being a plus size person I've got boards that have lasted 10 years because they were built to last. Double layer high density foam in the right spots etc. but they are too heavy ultimately for what I'm chasing now.. I'd rather a light board. Weight is everything. Boards are more nimble and planing thresholds lower. I truly believe boards have been over engineered not because they can't take the use but because factories have been outputting poorly built boards which keep failing. Name your brand.
Don't know what size fins you need but there are many rear quad sets that are 50/50 foil like the AM,s.
My grom uses a medium quad rear Carver as a center in his thruster as a replacement for the loss of one.
Yeah that's a good call. I've been using twins mainly as they suit futures front box depths however need to get shims so I can use centre and quad rears. went to get some a while back however were sold out.
I could switch to fcs2. Prob should have by now to remove the issue it's just I've got some great futures options I've collected hand shaped stone fins, glass twin fin and side bites in 50/50 in different sizes.
when I see anything I usually jump on it. Been building a\up the fin quiver for a while.. alkali have a 50/50 smaller twin I'd like to get.
From photos the eps foam they use look like the light grade home build recycle block, full off grey cells from graphite eps block. Start at 8kg/m3.
A guy at my spot have a superlite freerace custom, light carbon both side of sandwich. Board feel stiff but dings fragile, skin is so thin, a nightmare to repair you go through every time you tried to sand flat.
On other hand i am very surprise how light wing board, simple monolithic tech, age well.
@Gestalt : if you want light, cheap and don't care durability, build simple monolithic with 16kg eps core, a stringer to keep rocker, hand lam biax glass and UD carbon skin with epoxy resin and good use of microsphere, sandwich from mast track to tail or at least couple carbon layers.
Another attractive construction method that is relatively damage tolerant is the one used in aircraft floor panels. A classic Sandwich construction based on Nomex cores. In the aerospace sector the outer layers of those floor panels are typically made of GFRP, though CFRP can of course also be used. In the windsurf industry that approach was used by Patrik with his airinside boards for example. Example below, there is also a great video online where Patrik proofs the damage tolerance.
Select to expand quotelemat said..
From photos the eps foam they use look like the light grade home build recycle block, full off grey cells from graphite eps block. Start at 8kg/m3.
A guy at my spot have a superlite freerace custom, light carbon both side of sandwich. Board feel stiff but dings fragile, skin is so thin, a nightmare to repair you go through every time you tried to sand flat.
On other hand i am very surprise how light wing board, simple monolithic tech, age well.
@Gestalt : if you want light, cheap and don't care durability, build simple monolithic with 16kg eps core, a stringer to keep rocker, hand lam biax glass and UD carbon skin with epoxy resin and good use of microsphere, sandwich from mast track to tail or at least couple carbon layers.
I'm currently working on 2xtypes of construction.. nothing as advanced as tw custom tho and I do care about durability. just not as much as some.
a. 23kg eps foam. 6x6x4 bottom, 6x4 deck with carbon parabolic stringer. Nose and feet patches. No additives in resin.hand lam like a mal with cut lap.
b. 11kg EPS... carbon, innegra, glass bottom, carbon innegra glass sandwich deck inlay. Uni carbon stringer and parabolic rail band. Nose, feet and track patches. Am using additives in resin. Trying to get a 120lt board in around 6.3 - 6.5 kg hand lam free lap.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..lemat said..
From photos the eps foam they use look like the light grade home build recycle block, full off grey cells from graphite eps block. Start at 8kg/m3.
A guy at my spot have a superlite freerace custom, light carbon both side of sandwich. Board feel stiff but dings fragile, skin is so thin, a nightmare to repair you go through every time you tried to sand flat.
On other hand i am very surprise how light wing board, simple monolithic tech, age well.
@Gestalt : if you want light, cheap and don't care durability, build simple monolithic with 16kg eps core, a stringer to keep rocker, hand lam biax glass and UD carbon skin with epoxy resin and good use of microsphere, sandwich from mast track to tail or at least couple carbon layers.
I'm currently working on 2xtypes of construction.. nothing as advanced as tw custom tho and I do care about durability. just not as much as some.
a. 23kg eps foam. 6x6x4 bottom, 6x4 deck with carbon parabolic stringer. Nose and feet patches. No additives in resin.hand lam like a mal with cut lap.
b. 11kg EPS... carbon, innegra, glass bottom, carbon innegra glass sandwich deck inlay. Uni carbon stringer and parabolic rail band. Nose, feet and track patches. Am using additives in resin. Trying to get a 120lt board in around 6.3 - 6.5 kg hand lam free lap.
It's for flatwater use ?
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
Is it really just a waist harness converted to a seat harness or something different..
Try it out.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
Always wondered why the air inside boards never took off.
Its simply expensive and you also need to like the feeling of a hollow board.
Select to expand quotebradsblah said..Gestalt said..
Is it really just a waist harness converted to a seat harness or something different..
Try it out.
I'm not happy with my current waist harness so once finished changing up some other parts I prob get the tw version.
Select to expand quotelemat said..Gestalt said..lemat said..
From photos the eps foam they use look like the light grade home build recycle block, full off grey cells from graphite eps block. Start at 8kg/m3.
A guy at my spot have a superlite freerace custom, light carbon both side of sandwich. Board feel stiff but dings fragile, skin is so thin, a nightmare to repair you go through every time you tried to sand flat.
On other hand i am very surprise how light wing board, simple monolithic tech, age well.
@Gestalt : if you want light, cheap and don't care durability, build simple monolithic with 16kg eps core, a stringer to keep rocker, hand lam biax glass and UD carbon skin with epoxy resin and good use of microsphere, sandwich from mast track to tail or at least couple carbon layers.
I'm currently working on 2xtypes of construction.. nothing as advanced as tw custom tho and I do care about durability. just not as much as some.
a. 23kg eps foam. 6x6x4 bottom, 6x4 deck with carbon parabolic stringer. Nose and feet patches. No additives in resin.hand lam like a mal with cut lap.
b. 11kg EPS... carbon, innegra, glass bottom, carbon innegra glass sandwich deck inlay. Uni carbon stringer and parabolic rail band. Nose, feet and track patches. Am using additives in resin. Trying to get a 120lt board in around 6.3 - 6.5 kg hand lam free lap.
It's for flatwater use ?
Flat and small surf.. no big loops here...
I know a lot of wave sailors in the aging category that simply don't jump. they are there to wave ride. Sell the beefed up boards to the kids. there is an opening here for cheaper, lighter more advanced tech. the industry has taken a lot of big steps forward and a few backwards.. custom boards I used in the 90's were lighter than most high tech boards today. I used them for a few seasons until they creased on big landings then got another board. Seeing boards now coming in under 6kg and jumpable is fantastic..
I'd also like to see wave boards ditch the fancy boxes and go back to future boxes for the front fins and us box for the rear. consistent across the industry. That allows surfboard fins and windsurfing fins to cross pollinate. The fin box situation in windsurfing is a little ho hum and adds significant cost to the end user, I have bags full of different fins due to the bases all being different.Or to keep on theme of pushing tech forward start developing fins with futures bases.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
Always wondered why the air inside boards never took off.
From what I understood, Patrik just started producing the air inside boards in a custom factory in Ukraine and shortly after the turmoil started there so they had to seize production. We might see it back at some point.
Patrik was showing me one of their slalom air inside boards and while it had a crack in the nose, you simply drain the water after your sesh, pretty cool.
