I find it weird that everyone knows north sails are coming, some pros are riding some, apparently shops are taking pre orders and yet they haven't released any details. Seems like very strange business practise to me.

If I got to a shop with my '0000s of dollars to pre order do I get more information?

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Ben1973 said..
would the sail weight be with or without battens, wet or dry, including hard wear pulleys etc, unless they can all do the same it won't help.

also there's no real benefit to knowing the dry weight of a sail

The weight of the sail when it is dry, and ready to rig, will tell you a lot about how the sail will feel and handle in light winds (or rather in marginal conditions for the sail size). Of course you need to match that with a lightweight mast and boom too, in order for it to make a difference. The difference is well worth the money, as I see it, from about 4.7 and up. Using a lightweight 5.3 sail (such as the Severne Blade pro) makes a big difference to the light wind performance and handling, especially in marginal conditions. You have to try it in order to understand, I guess.

Likewise the Severne Overdrive sails are much lighter than their full on race sails. This makes a big difference when used in marginal conditions and by lighter weight sailors.

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Gestalt said..
Do you think JP Sailor Daniel is on a custom board painted to look like JP magic wave.

Yes .... think so .... that board looks like 208cm or 210 long ???? it looks tiny , shortest board in cap verde ... Length in front of mastfoot is tiny ... looks a bit also like the future fly proto's , which look ' dare i say it'- too short .... for fashions sake ....

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Kitekeeper said..

Hi Madge,

Just letting you these will be in the market from April at latest, contact your local dealer if you want to have a look/try.

Also the window will be standard monofilm to give visibility as you mentioned.

Cheers.

You seem to have 2 of them already, make grand claims about their strength, say they are easy to repair if you do break one with tape. Is it the window attached in a way a sail repairer replace?

Who exactly are you anyway?

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SurferKris said..

Ben1973 said..
would the sail weight be with or without battens, wet or dry, including hard wear pulleys etc, unless they can all do the same it won't help.

also there's no real benefit to knowing the dry weight of a sail

The weight of the sail when it is dry, and ready to rig, will tell you a lot about how the sail will feel and handle in light winds (or rather in marginal conditions for the sail size). Of course you need to match that with a lightweight mast and boom too, in order for it to make a difference. The difference is well worth the money, as I see it, from about 4.7 and up. Using a lightweight 5.3 sail (such as the Severne Blade pro) makes a big difference to the light wind performance and handling, especially in marginal conditions. You have to try it in order to understand, I guess.

Likewise the Severne Overdrive sails are much lighter than their full on race sails. This makes a big difference when used in marginal conditions and by lighter weight sailors.

But how often do you sail with out getting the sail wet. Surely wet weight is more important unless you only interested in performance up to the first t8me you drop the sail

Glad I sail on freshwater, you guys are getting a bit salty, looking forward to the sails not wave but slalom

Select to expand quote

Ben1973 said..

SurferKris said..

Ben1973 said..
would the sail weight be with or without battens, wet or dry, including hard wear pulleys etc, unless they can all do the same it won't help.

also there's no real benefit to knowing the dry weight of a sail

The weight of the sail when it is dry, and ready to rig, will tell you a lot about how the sail will feel and handle in light winds (or rather in marginal conditions for the sail size). Of course you need to match that with a lightweight mast and boom too, in order for it to make a difference. The difference is well worth the money, as I see it, from about 4.7 and up. Using a lightweight 5.3 sail (such as the Severne Blade pro) makes a big difference to the light wind performance and handling, especially in marginal conditions. You have to try it in order to understand, I guess.

Likewise the Severne Overdrive sails are much lighter than their full on race sails. This makes a big difference when used in marginal conditions and by lighter weight sailors.

But how often do you sail with out getting the sail wet. Surely wet weight is more important unless you only interested in performance up to the first t8me you drop the sail

How do you propose setting the industry standard for measuring a wet sail. Haha

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DunkO said..

Ben1973 said..

SurferKris said..

Ben1973 said..
would the sail weight be with or without battens, wet or dry, including hard wear pulleys etc, unless they can all do the same it won't help.

also there's no real benefit to knowing the dry weight of a sail

The weight of the sail when it is dry, and ready to rig, will tell you a lot about how the sail will feel and handle in light winds (or rather in marginal conditions for the sail size). Of course you need to match that with a lightweight mast and boom too, in order for it to make a difference. The difference is well worth the money, as I see it, from about 4.7 and up. Using a lightweight 5.3 sail (such as the Severne Blade pro) makes a big difference to the light wind performance and handling, especially in marginal conditions. You have to try it in order to understand, I guess.

Likewise the Severne Overdrive sails are much lighter than their full on race sails. This makes a big difference when used in marginal conditions and by lighter weight sailors.

But how often do you sail with out getting the sail wet. Surely wet weight is more important unless you only interested in performance up to the first t8me you drop the sail

How do you propose setting the industry standard for measuring a wet sail. Haha

Hose .

Select to expand quote

DunkO said..

Ben1973 said..

SurferKris said..

Ben1973 said..
would the sail weight be with or without battens, wet or dry, including hard wear pulleys etc, unless they can all do the same it won't help.

also there's no real benefit to knowing the dry weight of a sail

The weight of the sail when it is dry, and ready to rig, will tell you a lot about how the sail will feel and handle in light winds (or rather in marginal conditions for the sail size). Of course you need to match that with a lightweight mast and boom too, in order for it to make a difference. The difference is well worth the money, as I see it, from about 4.7 and up. Using a lightweight 5.3 sail (such as the Severne Blade pro) makes a big difference to the light wind performance and handling, especially in marginal conditions. You have to try it in order to understand, I guess.

Likewise the Severne Overdrive sails are much lighter than their full on race sails. This makes a big difference when used in marginal conditions and by lighter weight sailors.

But how often do you sail with out getting the sail wet. Surely wet weight is more important unless you only interested in performance up to the first t8me you drop the sail

How do you propose setting the industry standard for measuring a wet sail. Haha

Don't be silly guys.

Put a 10 liter bucket of water on top of the sail when its weighed on the bathroom scales, or DNV equivilant there of. That way when the new sail arrives, most will be over the moon. Except for those pedantic +/-5% Nazis, their sails would ship with a 10 liter bucket of water & cop the extra for shipping.

Enough said, back to work...

A sail that absorbs 10liters of water is certainly going to have issues, I've never seen that in real life, would that be a sail made from cotton? lol

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PhilUK said..
I think they should use production kit for PWA wave, like they do for slalom.

Interestingly, a couple of years back I was talking to a former PWA wave champ who said that the use of production kit for PWA wave was bad for the average sailor. He reckoned that the fact that the fact that they only scored a small number of waves meant that the emphasis was on creating boards with too much rocker for the average sailor. The expertise of the pros and the conditions they sailed in meant that these really rockered boards could catch enough waves to score on a heat, and their extreme carving ability meant they scored well on that limited number of waves. The average sailor, however, wants to catch more waves and can't extract the best performance out of such a board anyway because of their lower skill level. The boards for pros and the average sailor therefore SHOULD be more different than marketing allows them to be at the moment.

I haven't sailed in waves for many years but it rings very true to me; eons ago I did some contests against the pros and they were in such a different league that it was only logical that they had different kit. In the areas of sailing I still do, even when everyone is on exactly the same gear the pros trim it differently and sail at a different level. It's an interesting example of revenge effects.

Select to expand quote

DunkO said..

Ben1973 said..

SurferKris said..

Ben1973 said..
would the sail weight be with or without battens, wet or dry, including hard wear pulleys etc, unless they can all do the same it won't help.

also there's no real benefit to knowing the dry weight of a sail

The weight of the sail when it is dry, and ready to rig, will tell you a lot about how the sail will feel and handle in light winds (or rather in marginal conditions for the sail size). Of course you need to match that with a lightweight mast and boom too, in order for it to make a difference. The difference is well worth the money, as I see it, from about 4.7 and up. Using a lightweight 5.3 sail (such as the Severne Blade pro) makes a big difference to the light wind performance and handling, especially in marginal conditions. You have to try it in order to understand, I guess.

Likewise the Severne Overdrive sails are much lighter than their full on race sails. This makes a big difference when used in marginal conditions and by lighter weight sailors.

But how often do you sail with out getting the sail wet. Surely wet weight is more important unless you only interested in performance up to the first t8me you drop the sail

How do you propose setting the industry standard for measuring a wet sail. Haha

Submerge the sail complete with battens in water for say 10mins then pull it out let it drip for 10mins in a room with no air flow and at 20degrees then weigh it.

Select to expand quote

SurferKris said..

Ben1973 said..
would the sail weight be with or without battens, wet or dry, including hard wear pulleys etc, unless they can all do the same it won't help.

also there's no real benefit to knowing the dry weight of a sail

The weight of the sail when it is dry, and ready to rig, will tell you a lot about how the sail will feel and handle in light winds (or rather in marginal conditions for the sail size). Of course you need to match that with a lightweight mast and boom too, in order for it to make a difference. The difference is well worth the money, as I see it, from about 4.7 and up. Using a lightweight 5.3 sail (such as the Severne Blade pro) makes a big difference to the light wind performance and handling, especially in marginal conditions. You have to try it in order to understand, I guess.

Likewise the Severne Overdrive sails are much lighter than their full on race sails. This makes a big difference when used in marginal conditions and by lighter weight sailors.

What does the Blade Pro weigh? On a thread here it was said that Surf Magazin found it to be 3.22 kg not the claimed 2.7. There's a heck of a difference.

I looked back at an old catalogue and found that just about every sail was, as usual, claimed to have a wider wind range and be lighter than the previous model. I gotta say it's surprising that after at least 35 years of every manufacturer claiming to have wider wind range and lighter sails than the previous year, we still seem to have sails of the same weight and same wind range that we did in the '80s. Is there some sort of alternative physics for windsurfer sails? :-)

Select to expand quote

Chris 249 said..

SurferKris said..

Ben1973 said..
would the sail weight be with or without battens, wet or dry, including hard wear pulleys etc, unless they can all do the same it won't help.

also there's no real benefit to knowing the dry weight of a sail

The weight of the sail when it is dry, and ready to rig, will tell you a lot about how the sail will feel and handle in light winds (or rather in marginal conditions for the sail size). Of course you need to match that with a lightweight mast and boom too, in order for it to make a difference. The difference is well worth the money, as I see it, from about 4.7 and up. Using a lightweight 5.3 sail (such as the Severne Blade pro) makes a big difference to the light wind performance and handling, especially in marginal conditions. You have to try it in order to understand, I guess.

Likewise the Severne Overdrive sails are much lighter than their full on race sails. This makes a big difference when used in marginal conditions and by lighter weight sailors.

What does the Blade Pro weigh? On a thread here it was said that Surf Magazin found it to be 3.22 kg not the claimed 2.7. There's a heck of a difference.

I looked back at an old catalogue and found that just about every sail was, as usual, claimed to have a wider wind range and be lighter than the previous model. I gotta say it's surprising that after at least 35 years of every manufacturer claiming to have wider wind range and lighter sails than the previous year, we still seem to have sails of the same weight and same wind range that we did in the '80s. Is there some sort of alternative physics for windsurfer sails? :-)

True , but what happened is we had reasonably light sails in the mid eighties, they then got substantially heavier with the Introduction of very cheap monofilm and then cheap X ply, for the next 25 years whereupon windsurfing " rediscovered" lighter laminates and now the lightest sail weights are back down to a bit heavier than lightest sails of mid eighties. My 4.6 4 batten wave sail from 1986 was 2.25 kg from polyester 1.5 mil laminate with Kevlar space frame.

New materials should be welcomed, it will certainly be difficult to reduce the weight of sails below 2kg, as obviously there is some stuff that stays the same (battens rings etc) but even if the weight isn't actually less maybe the new cloths can be stronger.

Select to expand quote

Chris 249 said..

PhilUK said..
I think they should use production kit for PWA wave, like they do for slalom.

Interestingly, a couple of years back I was talking to a former PWA wave champ who said that the use of production kit for PWA wave was bad for the average sailor. He reckoned that the fact that the fact that they only scored a small number of waves meant that the emphasis was on creating boards with too much rocker for the average sailor. The expertise of the pros and the conditions they sailed in meant that these really rockered boards could catch enough waves to score on a heat, and their extreme carving ability meant they scored well on that limited number of waves. The average sailor, however, wants to catch more waves and can't extract the best performance out of such a board anyway because of their lower skill level. The boards for pros and the average sailor therefore SHOULD be more different than marketing allows them to be at the moment.

I haven't sailed in waves for many years but it rings very true to me; eons ago I did some contests against the pros and they were in such a different league that it was only logical that they had different kit. In the areas of sailing I still do, even when everyone is on exactly the same gear the pros trim it differently and sail at a different level. It's an interesting example of revenge effects.

After hearing Graham Ezzy talking to Kai in Cape Verde (I think it was Ezzy, could have been Roedinger or Martin) where he was saying a normal production wave board wouldnt turn so well at CV or Hookipa, I've changed my mind. He said the average sailor would find them too slow and difficult to sail. What annoys me though, is some brands painting a custom up as a production board, its a mis-representation.
I've seen claims of them saying these custom boards are next year's production boards, but that is nonsense as well. They wouldnt put their high rockered Hookipa boards into production.
At least Bernd Roedinger doesn't have that problem he complained about any longer, now he is sponsored by Flikka. I expect to see the number of boards they sell rocket.
At my beach we have Timo Mullen who was British wave champion at one point. He sails a Nano (as well as other Severne boards) and its quite amazing the difference in his riding compared to the very best of the other locals. I think a fair few sailors who dont have the skills like Timo sell theirs after not very long.

Select to expand quote

sheddweller said..

Chris 249 said..

SurferKris said..

Ben1973 said..
would the sail weight be with or without battens, wet or dry, including hard wear pulleys etc, unless they can all do the same it won't help.

also there's no real benefit to knowing the dry weight of a sail

The weight of the sail when it is dry, and ready to rig, will tell you a lot about how the sail will feel and handle in light winds (or rather in marginal conditions for the sail size). Of course you need to match that with a lightweight mast and boom too, in order for it to make a difference. The difference is well worth the money, as I see it, from about 4.7 and up. Using a lightweight 5.3 sail (such as the Severne Blade pro) makes a big difference to the light wind performance and handling, especially in marginal conditions. You have to try it in order to understand, I guess.

Likewise the Severne Overdrive sails are much lighter than their full on race sails. This makes a big difference when used in marginal conditions and by lighter weight sailors.

What does the Blade Pro weigh? On a thread here it was said that Surf Magazin found it to be 3.22 kg not the claimed 2.7. There's a heck of a difference.

I looked back at an old catalogue and found that just about every sail was, as usual, claimed to have a wider wind range and be lighter than the previous model. I gotta say it's surprising that after at least 35 years of every manufacturer claiming to have wider wind range and lighter sails than the previous year, we still seem to have sails of the same weight and same wind range that we did in the '80s. Is there some sort of alternative physics for windsurfer sails? :-)

True , but what happened is we had reasonably light sails in the mid eighties, they then got substantially heavier with the Introduction of very cheap monofilm and then cheap X ply, for the next 25 years whereupon windsurfing " rediscovered" lighter laminates and now the lightest sail weights are back down to a bit heavier than lightest sails of mid eighties. My 4.6 4 batten wave sail from 1986 was 2.25 kg from polyester 1.5 mil laminate with Kevlar space frame.

New materials should be welcomed, it will certainly be difficult to reduce the weight of sails below 2kg, as obviously there is some stuff that stays the same (battens rings etc) but even if the weight isn't actually less maybe the new cloths can be stronger.

Yep, that sounds about right. I was given a bunch of almost or totally unused '80s Gaastra sails a while back; I should weigh some of them. Sadly the glue laminations have failed.

I'm not against new materials, but I'm rather bemused by the fact that anyone can claim that 3DI style sails are "new". Madge and Jethrow would know when they came out, but I'm fairly sure I first sailed with 3DL in 2000.

It's strange that the original article says that 3DI can't handle sails with as much depth as a windsurfer sail. There's plenty of boats like J/35s running around with 3DI sails of about 16% draft.

I wonder how a poly wave sail with mainly short battens would go using a modern mast and boom, if one was prepared to accept a bit of back hand loading in exchange for light weight?

2.0 kg 4 (full length) batten 4.0 in technora laminate. Currently in the quiver of a top sailor. No backhanded issues, full range sail.
You could drop a bit with short battens.
Lightest reasonably durable is 1.9 kg 3.5 batten 4.6 soft sail in polyester laminate. With current laminates can't get much lighter than that for wave sails (unless you want to make "disposable" sails)

3.18kg 5 batten 7.0m twin cam in technora scrim laminate. Robust sail will do 5 years no problem.

So that's the weights north need to beat and/or equal but make more robust.

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Chris 249 said..
What does the Blade Pro weigh? On a thread here it was said that Surf Magazin found it to be 3.22 kg not the claimed 2.7. There's a heck of a difference.

I have never found any reason to doubt the data from Severne.
I have the 4.2, 4.7 and 5.3 Blade pro from 2016, and my 5.3 weights 2.9kg when wet and covered in pine needles (from the latest outing), after a quick wipe down it weights 2.8kg. This compares well to the Severne data from 2016:

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PhilUK said..

Kitekeeper said..

Hi Madge,

Just letting you these will be in the market from April at latest, contact your local dealer if you want to have a look/try.

Also the window will be standard monofilm to give visibility as you mentioned.

Cheers.

You seem to have 2 of them already, make grand claims about their strength, say they are easy to repair if you do break one with tape. Is it the window attached in a way a sail repairer replace?

Who exactly are you anyway?

Hi Phil,

Well, these claims about sail strength are already proven and seen on superyachts race, 80% of the team competing in the last Volvo Endurance race used the NS tech, the sails is still currently employed on their boat, back in the day most Team swould opt to change to a new sail after an endurance race.

The monofilm window is double stitched and can easily replaced by any sailmaker.

I am the Rep. for North Sails WS and Kites for Aus and NZ, this is why I have more inside info but I am not keen to share prices and images just yet.
However, the instagram page is now live and I expect the official launch in 1-2 weeks max.

Cheers.

Alex

Select to expand quote

cald said..
I find it weird that everyone knows north sails are coming, some pros are riding some, apparently shops are taking pre orders and yet they haven't released any details. Seems like very strange business practise to me.

If I got to a shop with my '0000s of dollars to pre order do I get more information?

Hi Cald,

I guess the strategy and reason behind this release model are deeply tied up with the people behind this project?

If you go to Surf FX not only you will be able to get more info and preorder one, but you will be able to see the sample sail in the flesh.

Can we please skip the retail chain step/markup and order directly from you? Or preferably order direct from the head-office overseas? Few too many people in the chain adding their $250 markup.

What is the date that the website will go live? Will that have an online store?

Link for instagram? Found a lot of awesome IMOCAs and Class 40s .. also Northwave sails ... might be easier for you to provide a link if that's not too much trouble.

www.instagram.com/north_windsurfing/
www.facebook.com/northwindsurfing/

So we can pre-order one from a shop but no one is willing to give prices online ?

If I travelled for an hour and a half because thats how far away my nearest shop is for them to tell me they don't actually have a price etc I'd be very annoyed.

Probably best to change your name from Kitekeeper too, not really much to do with windsurfing is it ?

Maybe you could send a pigeon with a note instead?

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DunkO said..
Maybe you could send a pigeon with a note instead?

Now thats a good idea. You are a thinking man.

Select to expand quote

Madge said..
So we can pre-order one from a shop but no one is willing to give prices online ?

If I travelled for an hour and a half because thats how far away my nearest shop is for them to tell me they don't actually have a price etc I'd be very annoyed.

Probably best to change your name from Kitekeeper too, not really much to do with windsurfing is it ?

Hi Madge,

I never said that, if you want to preorder one with Surf FX and you are serious about it, of course they will give you a price, as you might understand this is different than share a complete price list online of a product not yet released, what do you think?

Aslo are we really still judging a user by his nickname :)
however, it could be a good call, can't see making much friends here.... because of my kite profile pic/name maybe?

I think it's pathetic that there's a lot of hype about a great new ground breaking product that we can go to the shop and order and get a price only from them. The agent himself can't tell anyone at all about it, show any product photo's if even give sizing details.
I Think it's terrible business management.

Not really prompting something by not telling potential customers, actually it's putting them off the product.

This is what happens when you have a twin tip kiteboarder introducing the one and only product from North sails for windsurfing.
You can have the best product on the market but if your customer service and support is subpar then you're going to have a mediocre product.

So now this guy is going around to all his past duo tone dealers and attempting to get his product in their door and poach some of the market share. The smarter dealers will use it as a sales tool to push the duo tone membrane sails.

There is no special secret sauce it's just a membrane sail. It's already proven they have a short lifespan because you're sacrificing strength for weight and unfortunately North is it going to make theirs all black.

This is a very niche product for a niche market and since it actually carries the north sails boat sail logo I'm sure it's going to be priced accordingly over the top.

It would be interesting to hear an opinion from a real wave sailor in his 40s or 50s who has been sailing for decades if this sail actually made a difference performance-wise in his sessions versus cost and the short lifespan.

I'm not really one who likes to pay to become a beta tester. I'll stick to my ezzys sails and if I have a question or an issue arises I can send an email to dave ezzy himself and get a response back within a day.

This just an opinion from an old guy who buys windsurfing equipment.

In reply to the above email.

This is quite a different product from a membrane sail.
The membrane technology is basically a paneled sail that has seam shaping in the Batten pockets and is then glued and sewn, each panel is produced to be as light and as strong as needed.

A 3Di sail is made on a shaped mould, so the sail shape is moulded. Then fibres are laid head to clew etc and they follow the mapped capillary lines covering the whole sail in a continuous pattern. This is a way more superior process.

I hope for North sails sake they do well but really don't see the personal service like you get from Ezzy ever happening.

Probably great for lighter riders.

Not sure how the Ozzie summer heat will impact them.

Kiteboarders selling sails ?????

The Picture below is of a small yacht membrane sail before its glued together.

I always wondered why companies don't post much in windsurfing forums; I think the development of this thread explains it all.