They are more free for sure, the sail or wing as a lifting device produces drag and lift if seen from the wind stream, though then these components need to be projected onto the centerline of the board to understand how much of it propels forwards and where the rest goes. Foilings, and expecially wing foiling and kite foiling get really three dimensional. In windsurfing a component of the force produced by the sail goes in the direction of motion, the other is sideways, in wing-foiling the 'other' may be partially or mostly upwards, so is not wasted, but helping instead to reduce need for the foil to support the rider, it may all depends on how you orientate the wing. Now , why we can't do the same with the sailI don't understand yet, since watever device you use if you angle it to the wind you loose power, the key may be on wasting or not what is not propelling. In windfoiling yes you loose propelling force by inclining the sail with the board, but you should have the same lift effect...there may be something we could learn from them..sometimes having a story behind (windsurf years of practice) may not help I remember driving my sealion board upwind, I had to change my technique quite drastically given the very pecualiar shape of that board, but I was then going upwind like hell, and was nothing similar to what I was tought for windsurfing, I had to figure it out myself

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..

dimacced said..
I have no experience in winging, though I see huge potential for cross pollination between winging and Windfoiling despite the difference in the propeller.
strange enough, I notice windfoilers (like myself) need the board to be wide on the back to leverage on the foil and go upowind while I do not see the same being an issue on wing boards, which have straps staggered in the center line though they go upwind as well, and at same speed with similar foils sizes the righting moment would be the same, so for the ones of you that do both winging and windfoiling, how is this possible? is that because wingers go less deeper upwind?

Thank you to anyone would have the patience to provide feedback

Ciao Edoardo

No. many wingers go upwind as good if not better than windfoilers. Apparently it has something to do with them being able to rail the board over like a kite foil board. Not sure if its cause of the lift of the front wing adding to upwind angle or if the front wing starts to act more like a centerboard.

Wind foilers have some lean but far less agreesive than wingers.

Are you referring to freeride windfoils? I find it hard to believe a wingfoil would out-point an IQ Foil, some of this is coming from personal experience on water.

Select to expand quote

Dishpet said..

thedoor said..

dimacced said..
I have no experience in winging, though I see huge potential for cross pollination between winging and Windfoiling despite the difference in the propeller.
strange enough, I notice windfoilers (like myself) need the board to be wide on the back to leverage on the foil and go upowind while I do not see the same being an issue on wing boards, which have straps staggered in the center line though they go upwind as well, and at same speed with similar foils sizes the righting moment would be the same, so for the ones of you that do both winging and windfoiling, how is this possible? is that because wingers go less deeper upwind?

Thank you to anyone would have the patience to provide feedback

Ciao Edoardo

No. many wingers go upwind as good if not better than windfoilers. Apparently it has something to do with them being able to rail the board over like a kite foil board. Not sure if its cause of the lift of the front wing adding to upwind angle or if the front wing starts to act more like a centerboard.

Wind foilers have some lean but far less agreesive than wingers.

Are you referring to freeride windfoils? I find it hard to believe a wingfoil would out-point an IQ Foil, some of this is coming from personal experience on water.

Probably not going to beat an iq foil upbreeze, but I believe the pointing ability a wing has over a free ride wind foil has to do with the disconnected power source, same with kites.


A wing or kite can be positioned in the powerzone, and the board and foil can be angled over and the angle of attack increased to gain upwind mobility, because it's attached (or held) solely to the rider. Windfoils can be banked over as well, but it has more to do with control. Having the mast (and the sail) connected to the front of the board severely hampers a wind foilers ability to climb upwind using the same technique.


only reason an iq foil, or proper course racing windfoil will still out do a wing is because the foil generates a lot more lift than the typical winging foil ever will. And the mechanics of having the wing right there with the rider means they'll never be able to point like a race foil kite will.

Select to expand quote

Subsonic said..

Dishpet said..

thedoor said..

dimacced said..
I have no experience in winging, though I see huge potential for cross pollination between winging and Windfoiling despite the difference in the propeller.
strange enough, I notice windfoilers (like myself) need the board to be wide on the back to leverage on the foil and go upowind while I do not see the same being an issue on wing boards, which have straps staggered in the center line though they go upwind as well, and at same speed with similar foils sizes the righting moment would be the same, so for the ones of you that do both winging and windfoiling, how is this possible? is that because wingers go less deeper upwind?

Thank you to anyone would have the patience to provide feedback

Ciao Edoardo

No. many wingers go upwind as good if not better than windfoilers. Apparently it has something to do with them being able to rail the board over like a kite foil board. Not sure if its cause of the lift of the front wing adding to upwind angle or if the front wing starts to act more like a centerboard.

Wind foilers have some lean but far less agreesive than wingers.

Are you referring to freeride windfoils? I find it hard to believe a wingfoil would out-point an IQ Foil, some of this is coming from personal experience on water.

Probably not going to beat an iq foil upbreeze, but I believe the pointing ability a wing has over a free ride wind foil has to do with the disconnected power source, same with kites.


A wing or kite can be positioned in the powerzone, and the board and foil can be angled over and the angle of attack increased to gain upwind mobility, because it's attached (or held) solely to the rider. Windfoils can be banked over as well, but it has more to do with control. Having the mast (and the sail) connected to the front of the board severely hampers a wind foilers ability to climb upwind using the same technique.


only reason an iq foil, or proper course racing windfoil will still out do a wing is because the foil generates a lot more lift than the typical winging foil ever will. And the mechanics of having the wing right there with the rider means they'll never be able to point like a race foil kite will.

I tend to agree though if you see the video from azymuth sailing upwind with very long lines, he is doing a pretty god job creating distance from the sail and therefore having more freedom to bank the board,
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Frothing-in-15--video-?page=1#28
I think there is spoace to close the gap changing a bit the technique, not necessarily what we learned windsurfing is the best fro windfoiling, the two are different big times; the advantage wingers have in my opinion is that they started from scartch with no habit pre-conceived as windsurfer did instead, this may be the very biggest difference

Select to expand quote

Dishpet said..

thedoor said..

dimacced said..
I have no experience in winging, though I see huge potential for cross pollination between winging and Windfoiling despite the difference in the propeller.
strange enough, I notice windfoilers (like myself) need the board to be wide on the back to leverage on the foil and go upowind while I do not see the same being an issue on wing boards, which have straps staggered in the center line though they go upwind as well, and at same speed with similar foils sizes the righting moment would be the same, so for the ones of you that do both winging and windfoiling, how is this possible? is that because wingers go less deeper upwind?

Thank you to anyone would have the patience to provide feedback

Ciao Edoardo

No. many wingers go upwind as good if not better than windfoilers. Apparently it has something to do with them being able to rail the board over like a kite foil board. Not sure if its cause of the lift of the front wing adding to upwind angle or if the front wing starts to act more like a centerboard.

Wind foilers have some lean but far less agreesive than wingers.

Are you referring to freeride windfoils? I find it hard to believe a wingfoil would out-point an IQ Foil, some of this is coming from personal experience on water.

From what I hear the top wingfoil racer in SF bay is out pointing the top windfoil racers, but he is a freak. I will double check with my source though

Select to expand quote

Subsonic said..

Dishpet said..

thedoor said..

dimacced said..
I have no experience in winging, though I see huge potential for cross pollination between winging and Windfoiling despite the difference in the propeller.
strange enough, I notice windfoilers (like myself) need the board to be wide on the back to leverage on the foil and go upowind while I do not see the same being an issue on wing boards, which have straps staggered in the center line though they go upwind as well, and at same speed with similar foils sizes the righting moment would be the same, so for the ones of you that do both winging and windfoiling, how is this possible? is that because wingers go less deeper upwind?

Thank you to anyone would have the patience to provide feedback

Ciao Edoardo

No. many wingers go upwind as good if not better than windfoilers. Apparently it has something to do with them being able to rail the board over like a kite foil board. Not sure if its cause of the lift of the front wing adding to upwind angle or if the front wing starts to act more like a centerboard.

Wind foilers have some lean but far less agreesive than wingers.

Are you referring to freeride windfoils? I find it hard to believe a wingfoil would out-point an IQ Foil, some of this is coming from personal experience on water.

Probably not going to beat an iq foil upbreeze, but I believe the pointing ability a wing has over a free ride wind foil has to do with the disconnected power source, same with kites.


A wing or kite can be positioned in the powerzone, and the board and foil can be angled over and the angle of attack increased to gain upwind mobility, because it's attached (or held) solely to the rider. Windfoils can be banked over as well, but it has more to do with control. Having the mast (and the sail) connected to the front of the board severely hampers a wind foilers ability to climb upwind using the same technique.


only reason an iq foil, or proper course racing windfoil will still out do a wing is because the foil generates a lot more lift than the typical winging foil ever will. And the mechanics of having the wing right there with the rider means they'll never be able to point like a race foil kite will.

And the very long 115+ fuse on the IQ must help pointing ability

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..

Dishpet said..

thedoor said..

dimacced said..
I have no experience in winging, though I see huge potential for cross pollination between winging and Windfoiling despite the difference in the propeller.
strange enough, I notice windfoilers (like myself) need the board to be wide on the back to leverage on the foil and go upowind while I do not see the same being an issue on wing boards, which have straps staggered in the center line though they go upwind as well, and at same speed with similar foils sizes the righting moment would be the same, so for the ones of you that do both winging and windfoiling, how is this possible? is that because wingers go less deeper upwind?

Thank you to anyone would have the patience to provide feedback

Ciao Edoardo

No. many wingers go upwind as good if not better than windfoilers. Apparently it has something to do with them being able to rail the board over like a kite foil board. Not sure if its cause of the lift of the front wing adding to upwind angle or if the front wing starts to act more like a centerboard.

Wind foilers have some lean but far less agreesive than wingers.

Are you referring to freeride windfoils? I find it hard to believe a wingfoil would out-point an IQ Foil, some of this is coming from personal experience on water.

From what I hear the top wingfoil racer in SF bay is out pointing the top windfoil racers, but he is a freak. I will double check with my source though

OK you guys were right. The top wingfoil racer points slightly lower than the best windfoil racers on SF bay. And he quite a jump ahead of the other wingers, so an outlier

Of note he is faster and his flying tacks means he can get to upwind mark just after the faster windfoil racer.

On a short windward/leeward course I believe a winger could be the windfoilers. But the course would have to be fairly short.
Certainly wingers can work a much smaller area of swell compared to WWF and ride it far more aggressively.

Select to expand quote

dimacced said..
They are more free for sure, the sail or wing as a lifting device produces drag and lift if seen from the wind stream, though then these components need to be projected onto the centerline of the board to understand how much of it propels forwards and where the rest goes. Foilings, and expecially wing foiling and kite foiling get really three dimensional. In windsurfing a component of the force produced by the sail goes in the direction of motion, the other is sideways, in wing-foiling the 'other' may be partially or mostly upwards, so is not wasted, but helping instead to reduce need for the foil to support the rider, it may all depends on how you orientate the wing. Now , why we can't do the same with the sailI don't understand yet, since watever device you use if you angle it to the wind you loose power, the key may be on wasting or not what is not propelling. In windfoiling yes you loose propelling force by inclining the sail with the board, but you should have the same lift effect...there may be something we could learn from them..sometimes having a story behind (windsurf years of practice) may not help I remember driving my sealion board upwind, I had to change my technique quite drastically given the very pecualiar shape of that board, but I was then going upwind like hell, and was nothing similar to what I was tought for windsurfing, I had to figure it out myself

For top speed I don't think the lifting component of Wings &/or Kite is helpful at all. Already the limit is control. Kitefoil racers & speed kiter run the kite as low to the water as possible to maximize forward pull. It is the same in Windsurfing - sails are not designed to maximize the lifting component as forward drive & control are the primary factors. Windfoilers already go upwind better than Wingfoilers partially because the sail is so much more efficient at those angles.

Select to expand quote

Grantmac said..
On a short windward/leeward course I believe a winger could be the windfoilers. But the course would have to be fairly short.
Certainly wingers can work a much smaller area of swell compared to WWF and ride it far more aggressively.

Ive been racing foils for a couple of years now, and i've competed with wingfoils. They dont even get close to the top windfoilers in upwind/downwind racing in my experience.

Select to expand quote

gorgesailor said..

dimacced said..
They are more free for sure, the sail or wing as a lifting device produces drag and lift if seen from the wind stream, though then these components need to be projected onto the centerline of the board to understand how much of it propels forwards and where the rest goes. Foilings, and expecially wing foiling and kite foiling get really three dimensional. In windsurfing a component of the force produced by the sail goes in the direction of motion, the other is sideways, in wing-foiling the 'other' may be partially or mostly upwards, so is not wasted, but helping instead to reduce need for the foil to support the rider, it may all depends on how you orientate the wing. Now , why we can't do the same with the sailI don't understand yet, since watever device you use if you angle it to the wind you loose power, the key may be on wasting or not what is not propelling. In windfoiling yes you loose propelling force by inclining the sail with the board, but you should have the same lift effect...there may be something we could learn from them..sometimes having a story behind (windsurf years of practice) may not help I remember driving my sealion board upwind, I had to change my technique quite drastically given the very pecualiar shape of that board, but I was then going upwind like hell, and was nothing similar to what I was tought for windsurfing, I had to figure it out myself

For top speed I don't think the lifting component of Wings &/or Kite is helpful at all. Already the limit is control. Kitefoil racers & speed kiter run the kite as low to the water as possible to maximize forward pull. It is the same in Windsurfing - sails are not designed to maximize the lifting component as forward drive & control are the primary factors. Windfoilers already go upwind better than Wingfoilers partially because the sail is so much more efficient at those angles.

ok, I get it, so banking the board is not necessarily meaning you go upwind more efficiently. I bet the difference in efficiency between the wing and a race windfoil sail is huge, with less racy sails this difference is lower but still windfoil sails are far more efficient and should outperform wingfoils still.
Do you know why Wing foilers do not need so much a large board to go upwind? Is that because of less efficient sails generate less power?

Select to expand quote

gorgesailor said..

dimacced said..
They are more free for sure, the sail or wing as a lifting device produces drag and lift if seen from the wind stream, though then these components need to be projected onto the centerline of the board to understand how much of it propels forwards and where the rest goes. Foilings, and expecially wing foiling and kite foiling get really three dimensional. In windsurfing a component of the force produced by the sail goes in the direction of motion, the other is sideways, in wing-foiling the 'other' may be partially or mostly upwards, so is not wasted, but helping instead to reduce need for the foil to support the rider, it may all depends on how you orientate the wing. Now , why we can't do the same with the sailI don't understand yet, since watever device you use if you angle it to the wind you loose power, the key may be on wasting or not what is not propelling. In windfoiling yes you loose propelling force by inclining the sail with the board, but you should have the same lift effect...there may be something we could learn from them..sometimes having a story behind (windsurf years of practice) may not help I remember driving my sealion board upwind, I had to change my technique quite drastically given the very pecualiar shape of that board, but I was then going upwind like hell, and was nothing similar to what I was tought for windsurfing, I had to figure it out myself

For top speed I don't think the lifting component of Wings &/or Kite is helpful at all. Already the limit is control. Kitefoil racers & speed kiter run the kite as low to the water as possible to maximize forward pull. It is the same in Windsurfing - sails are not designed to maximize the lifting component as forward drive & control are the primary factors. Windfoilers already go upwind better than Wingfoilers partially because the sail is so much more efficient at those angles.

Well, I have no practical experience so take it as food for thouhgts but If I can change position of the wing I may use more upwards pull when starting and getting airborne, then move the sail gradually more vertical so to get power and acceleration, this may help in getting going with smaller foils with less drag and get more speed. The same cannot be done by windfoilers. Though I so often see wingers with bigger foils and slower than windfoilers, but the skill factor may be dominating, we should ask Balz Muller he does both with high skills no doubt

Select to expand quote

dimacced said..

gorgesailor said..

dimacced said..
They are more free for sure, the sail or wing as a lifting device produces drag and lift if seen from the wind stream, though then these components need to be projected onto the centerline of the board to understand how much of it propels forwards and where the rest goes. Foilings, and expecially wing foiling and kite foiling get really three dimensional. In windsurfing a component of the force produced by the sail goes in the direction of motion, the other is sideways, in wing-foiling the 'other' may be partially or mostly upwards, so is not wasted, but helping instead to reduce need for the foil to support the rider, it may all depends on how you orientate the wing. Now , why we can't do the same with the sailI don't understand yet, since watever device you use if you angle it to the wind you loose power, the key may be on wasting or not what is not propelling. In windfoiling yes you loose propelling force by inclining the sail with the board, but you should have the same lift effect...there may be something we could learn from them..sometimes having a story behind (windsurf years of practice) may not help I remember driving my sealion board upwind, I had to change my technique quite drastically given the very pecualiar shape of that board, but I was then going upwind like hell, and was nothing similar to what I was tought for windsurfing, I had to figure it out myself

For top speed I don't think the lifting component of Wings &/or Kite is helpful at all. Already the limit is control. Kitefoil racers & speed kiter run the kite as low to the water as possible to maximize forward pull. It is the same in Windsurfing - sails are not designed to maximize the lifting component as forward drive & control are the primary factors. Windfoilers already go upwind better than Wingfoilers partially because the sail is so much more efficient at those angles.

ok, I get it, so banking the board is not necessarily meaning you go upwind more efficiently. I bet the difference in efficiency between the wing and a race windfoil sail is huge, with less racy sails this difference is lower but still windfoil sails are far more efficient and should outperform wingfoils still.
Do you know why Wing foilers do not need so much a large board to go upwind? Is that because of less efficient sails generate less power?

The width on windsurfing boards is for sheeting angle. Outboard rear lets you'll pull the sail harder over the centerline when there's a lot of apparent wind.

For wings they can stand on the centerline and width will get in the way of the wing it seems. At least when I've seen them in an aggressive, upright stance.

Select to expand quote

dimacced said..

gorgesailor said..

dimacced said..
They are more free for sure, the sail or wing as a lifting device produces drag and lift if seen from the wind stream, though then these components need to be projected onto the centerline of the board to understand how much of it propels forwards and where the rest goes. Foilings, and expecially wing foiling and kite foiling get really three dimensional. In windsurfing a component of the force produced by the sail goes in the direction of motion, the other is sideways, in wing-foiling the 'other' may be partially or mostly upwards, so is not wasted, but helping instead to reduce need for the foil to support the rider, it may all depends on how you orientate the wing. Now , why we can't do the same with the sailI don't understand yet, since watever device you use if you angle it to the wind you loose power, the key may be on wasting or not what is not propelling. In windfoiling yes you loose propelling force by inclining the sail with the board, but you should have the same lift effect...there may be something we could learn from them..sometimes having a story behind (windsurf years of practice) may not help I remember driving my sealion board upwind, I had to change my technique quite drastically given the very pecualiar shape of that board, but I was then going upwind like hell, and was nothing similar to what I was tought for windsurfing, I had to figure it out myself

For top speed I don't think the lifting component of Wings &/or Kite is helpful at all. Already the limit is control. Kitefoil racers & speed kiter run the kite as low to the water as possible to maximize forward pull. It is the same in Windsurfing - sails are not designed to maximize the lifting component as forward drive & control are the primary factors. Windfoilers already go upwind better than Wingfoilers partially because the sail is so much more efficient at those angles.

Well, I have no practical experience so take it as food for thouhgts but If I can change position of the wing I may use more upwards pull when starting and getting airborne, then move the sail gradually more vertical so to get power and acceleration, this may help in getting going with smaller foils with less drag and get more speed. The same cannot be done by windfoilers. Though I so often see wingers with bigger foils and slower than windfoilers, but the skill factor may be dominating, we should ask Balz Muller he does both with high skills no doubt

I think the upwards component of Wings & kites does allow Wingers & kiters to use smaller boards for take-off. But, I think generating speed is key for smaller foil wings so the Windfoil setup is better than Wing for this. Regarding upwind, here(the Gorge) I see even freeride Windfoilers going upwind at higher angles than your average Wingfoiler... A sail is just a more efficient tool than a Wing.

I saw a pretty good winger at my spot for the first time, light winds 8-10 knots and they were having trouble getting up, told them the wind is stronger out in the middle of the bay, they replied they could not get out there, wind was from the N directly onshore, and we were launching from the Northside of a beach that ran E to W.

I generally go upwind better with a sail than a wing but the new slingshot Javelin with carbon boom is getting close. It's really rigid and powerful just not as efficient as a sail
The light wind gap is also getting extremely close, if I need 11 knots with a 5.8 sail, a winger can get going on a 7.0 wing.

upper hand still goes to wind foil when punching out through cross onshore shore dump where the wind gets super light here on the Florida east coast. Winging is great fun in rolling swells when nicely powered and boostin.
Riding a 4'9" wing board with virtually no swing weight is surreal.

One observation on wing foil compared to wind foil is that now the colder weather is here in my location their are less wingers out than winders . I know cold weather wetsuits /kit are tosty theas days but windfoiling you are on the floaty board (depending on skill level) but wingers are in the cold water quite a bit more especially if wind drops although I've seen wingers swimming long distances getting back to shore in dropped wind and probably getting warm doing so. For me I just love to be out on the water in any discipline as long as I'm loving it

Exact opposite here
Only wingers out last few sessions (0-2C air, 3-4C water) 30-35 knots and flurries today.
We just use our bigger boards and don't learn new tricks.

Select to expand quote

Sandman1221 said..

patronus said..

Sandman1221 said..
I have never winged, but I have watched them, it takes a lot of work to pump up onto the wing board foil AND then they have to hang onto to the wing (no down winding at my spot), now these are young athletic wingers and they get tired after an hour or so and then are done for the day and leave "with hours of good wind still blowing!"

If they are pumping a lot then either wing or foil is too small. With right sized wing it isn't tiring. I'm rubbish at winging and last hours, climbing back onto board hundreds of times, and I'm old too. The good wingers hardly ever fall in unless learning tricks etc.

Just to get up on foil they pump a lot, once up they go back and forth doing foiling gybes, but then get tired and start to crash and are clearly tired when pumping up, then come in and leave, and these are young athletic wingers.

I'm 65, fall in loads and have 3-4 hour sessions. Vigorous pumping is most tiring and needed with 6m if wind <10knots, then I tire quickly

Select to expand quote

Mucel said..
In my spot with many wingfoilers and kitefoilers my windfoiling takeoff in light winds (10-11 knots) is well earlier than wingers and a bit later than kitefoilers, with 5,3 wavesail and 1600 old surffoil and little board and sail pumping. Wingers in light wind pump like beasts.

I think the cool thing of winging needs some knots more than windfoiling and waves

I am very much a beginner. Other day shared sea with a windfoil visitor who had 7.5m windfoil specific sail, flew all his gybes (so better windfoiler than I am winger) He was getting up 1-2knots earlier than me with 6m wing. A few other wingers out in light winds and swells and unsure why but windfoil looked boring. I have windsurfed for 40 years and appreciate mowing the lawn can look boring but isn't.

Select to expand quote

airsail said..
We have all 3 foiling disciplines at our local, wind, wing and kite. When asked by a bystander who is interested in taking up a foiling discipline, wing is always the answer. It is easier to learn than either wind or kite and cheaper than both too.

Lots of windsurf and kite in my area but few new-takers, then winging arrived and loads of people taking it up who have no windsport experience or surfers. Even they can't explain why winging and not the rest grabbed them.

Select to expand quote

Subsonic said..

Dishpet said..

thedoor said..

dimacced said..
I have no experience in winging, though I see huge potential for cross pollination between winging and Windfoiling despite the difference in the propeller.
strange enough, I notice windfoilers (like myself) need the board to be wide on the back to leverage on the foil and go upowind while I do not see the same being an issue on wing boards, which have straps staggered in the center line though they go upwind as well, and at same speed with similar foils sizes the righting moment would be the same, so for the ones of you that do both winging and windfoiling, how is this possible? is that because wingers go less deeper upwind?

Thank you to anyone would have the patience to provide feedback

Ciao Edoardo

No. many wingers go upwind as good if not better than windfoilers. Apparently it has something to do with them being able to rail the board over like a kite foil board. Not sure if its cause of the lift of the front wing adding to upwind angle or if the front wing starts to act more like a centerboard.

Wind foilers have some lean but far less agreesive than wingers.

Are you referring to freeride windfoils? I find it hard to believe a wingfoil would out-point an IQ Foil, some of this is coming from personal experience on water.

Probably not going to beat an iq foil upbreeze, but I believe the pointing ability a wing has over a free ride wind foil has to do with the disconnected power source, same with kites.


A wing or kite can be positioned in the powerzone, and the board and foil can be angled over and the angle of attack increased to gain upwind mobility, because it's attached (or held) solely to the rider. Windfoils can be banked over as well, but it has more to do with control. Having the mast (and the sail) connected to the front of the board severely hampers a wind foilers ability to climb upwind using the same technique.


only reason an iq foil, or proper course racing windfoil will still out do a wing is because the foil generates a lot more lift than the typical winging foil ever will. And the mechanics of having the wing right there with the rider means they'll never be able to point like a race foil kite will.

The other big factor in getting upwind is positions of centre of lateral resistance compared to centre of effort. In kiting and winging the foreward and lateral forces from wing/kite are transferred to the board through the sailor's feet. In windfoiling and windsurfing there is also force transferred through the mast foot which is well forward of the feet and trying to push the nose downwind with increased leverage around the mast/fin.

Select to expand quote

patronus said..

Subsonic said..

Dishpet said..

thedoor said..

dimacced said..
I have no experience in winging, though I see huge potential for cross pollination between winging and Windfoiling despite the difference in the propeller.
strange enough, I notice windfoilers (like myself) need the board to be wide on the back to leverage on the foil and go upowind while I do not see the same being an issue on wing boards, which have straps staggered in the center line though they go upwind as well, and at same speed with similar foils sizes the righting moment would be the same, so for the ones of you that do both winging and windfoiling, how is this possible? is that because wingers go less deeper upwind?

Thank you to anyone would have the patience to provide feedback

Ciao Edoardo

No. many wingers go upwind as good if not better than windfoilers. Apparently it has something to do with them being able to rail the board over like a kite foil board. Not sure if its cause of the lift of the front wing adding to upwind angle or if the front wing starts to act more like a centerboard.

Wind foilers have some lean but far less agreesive than wingers.

Are you referring to freeride windfoils? I find it hard to believe a wingfoil would out-point an IQ Foil, some of this is coming from personal experience on water.

Probably not going to beat an iq foil upbreeze, but I believe the pointing ability a wing has over a free ride wind foil has to do with the disconnected power source, same with kites.


A wing or kite can be positioned in the powerzone, and the board and foil can be angled over and the angle of attack increased to gain upwind mobility, because it's attached (or held) solely to the rider. Windfoils can be banked over as well, but it has more to do with control. Having the mast (and the sail) connected to the front of the board severely hampers a wind foilers ability to climb upwind using the same technique.


only reason an iq foil, or proper course racing windfoil will still out do a wing is because the foil generates a lot more lift than the typical winging foil ever will. And the mechanics of having the wing right there with the rider means they'll never be able to point like a race foil kite will.

The other big factor in getting upwind is positions of centre of lateral resistance compared to centre of effort. In kiting and winging the foreward and lateral forces from wing/kite are transferred to the board through the sailor's feet. In windfoiling and windsurfing there is also force transferred through the mast foot which is well forward of the feet and trying to push the nose downwind with increased leverage around the mast/fin.

Yep, that was what i was saying, but put much more scientifically.

Wingfoiling you can get up in a bit less wind than windfoiling if you're competent (using same wing/sail size). This is because you can pump more efficiently and also the wing lifts you up and unweights you, plus everything is lighter.

Really you don't come off the foil unless you want to, or are really pushing boundaries (spins in the air, riding big waves etc). Gybing/tacking etc is easier with a wing than windfoiling.

If you're limited to flat water and already windfoil then the cost of going over probably isn't worth it, especially if you like just blasting along and gybing. Winging is fun on flat water, but a similar enjoyment level to windfoil. It's in the waves/swell that winging is better.

If you do neither, then I'd recommend winging as it's easier than windfoiling, plus the wings have a huge wind range.

This worth a look on utube, guy having fun windfoiling !

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nerdycross said..


This worth a look on utube, guy having fun windfoiling !

Casey is really good at WWF. He builds some really cool boards for WWF under the Reef Warrior name. He's on Instagram too. Met him this summer and got to watch him play on Lake Michigan for a bit. Can't wait for him to get my Reef Warrior board done.

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excav8ter said..

nerdycross said..


This worth a look on utube, guy having fun windfoiling !

Casey is really good at WWF. He builds some really cool boards for WWF under the Reef Warrior name. He's on Instagram too. Met him this summer and got to watch him play on Lake Michigan for a bit. Can't wait for him to get my Reef Warrior board done.

Good stuff ??

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nerdycross said..
Who has started windfoiling then switched to wingfoiling but now reverting back to foiling with a sail , if so why .

I'm 56 years young :-)
Windsurfing for 38 years, never problems with backpain.
then moved to Wingfoil, 2 years.

Now back to Windsurf foiling because of hard backpain. Was wingfoiling last year for quite every day. too much it seams :-(
I think its because with time, the pressure point of the slick sls has moved back what caused a bad influebce to my back.
hope with windsurf foiling the pain will be less. want to foil again more than 4h at a good day...

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Heubluemli said..

nerdycross said..
Who has started windfoiling then switched to wingfoiling but now reverting back to foiling with a sail , if so why .

I'm 56 years young :-)
Windsurfing for 38 years, never problems with backpain.
then moved to Wingfoil, 2 years.

Now back to Windsurf foiling because of hard backpain. Was wingfoiling last year for quite every day. too much it seams :-(
I think its because with time, the pressure point of the slick sls has moved back what caused a bad influebce to my back.
hope with windsurf foiling the pain will be less. want to foil again more than 4h at a good day...

I can relate to the back pain windwing and 76 yo, toe side was a killer. The pain was in back muscles that I didn't know I had.
Now after many jybes and toeside riding both ways my back and body is way more flexible and now no back pain.
I've averaged 5 sessions a week this year with most about 40k distance and last week a 64.4 k distance.
What scares me is this run of wind may stop then I'll age and seize up again.

I have ridden very little toeside. My back was well trained and flexible.
It was probably just too many shear forces for too long.
Unfortunately, I now have a herniated disc.
Take care, especially those who wingfoil a lot! Wingfoiling is a new sport and there are no long-term experiences yet.
I think that the forces on the back during windsurf foiling are different and less harmful. Maybe I'm wrong. But this is how it is with my back.

That's why I'm switching back to windsurfing, but with a foil.
I love Greg Glazier's style."