And somebody could say how winging affects shoulders?

Of course winging can stress shoulders.
Some wingers here use a harness when going upwind, just like windfoil and windsurf.
You can't start a new sport already injured and old.

I had eastern 2012 a shoulder luxation with fracture of the tuberculum majus und minus (slalom surfing training on the garda lake :-)
It was not good to operate (coagulation dysorder) - so physiotherapy for one year and no windsurfing for 2012.
I started windsurfing 2013 again and changed to windfoiling 2019. The shoulder works for windsurfing and windfoiling very good - only if I'm pumping very aggressive I feel some nerval firing into the hand (problem plexus brachialis due to the crash 2012).

I started 2021 to winging, too, but it was not feasible. After one hour winging - rising my arms up - I'm getting immediately pain in the 2012 injured right shoulder. After 1 h I had to give up and go windfoiling - without problems. So I stopped Winging again. Only windfoiling 2022.

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LeeD said..
Of course winging can stress shoulders.
Some wingers here use a harness when going upwind, just like windfoil and windsurf.
You can't start a new sport already injured and old.

Not so old. I will wait for sure until my shoulder gets good but in the mean time I collect info to choose the right foiling wind sport to prevent future shoulder injuries

What I hate most about winging is holding the wing up in light breeze, while slogging to the windline. Kills my shoulders, already bad from rotator cuff injuries.
Almost as bad, the need for pumping with the legs. I can barely walk for the past 15 years, and pumping the foil up stresses my legs to rubber.
Windsurf and windfoil, I can get away pumping the sail.
And that foil loves to kiss my shins...something which seldom happens windfoil waterstarting because the boom keeps me a certain distance clear.
Even in 10-15 breeze, if there is surf, I'd rather windsurf with a 100 liter board and 5.5 over wing or wind foiling.

I have a slight shoulder injury, winging (at least with 1st generation equipment) was the hardest activity I've tried in terms of shoulder strain. Right up there with mountain biking.

Road biking kills my shoulders and elbows.
The constant load and occasional lmpacts.
Front suspensions on mountain bike softens blows.
Winging in 17 is fine. But where in the world is 17?

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CoreAS said..
I am starting to hear of light wind winging tendon issues/fatigue etc. and I am one of them.

...

I don't see how that can be avoided. Unless a winger uses a harness, all the stress goes through the arms. It is less than it would be windsurfing or kiting without harness, but still ... the arms and shoulders are doing all the work

I always wonder how my g/f can wingfoil for 2 hours straight without taking a break.
I'm maybe 1/3rd that.
We both windsurf 2 hours, often not falling and planing 90%, but wing takes a toll on my legs and shoulders.

I've found the opposite, windsurfing then kitesurf and now winging. Shoulder surgery on the left shoulder a few years ago and a first winging caused pain. Off to the physio who showed me weigh exercises to strengthen my back and shoulder muscles.
The pain I was experiencing is now gone, I can wing for several hours and come in fresh. It's all about strengthening the muscles you need for winging. I don't use a harness and only wing above 15 knots, below that a kitefoil is more fun. Sometimes a sailboard but that's really hard work. I'm 57 years old.

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airsail said..
I've found the opposite, windsurfing then kitesurf and now winging. Shoulder surgery on the left shoulder a few years ago and a first winging caused pain. Off to the physio who showed me weigh exercises to strengthen my back and shoulder muscles.
The pain I was experiencing is now gone, I can wing for several hours and come in fresh. It's all about strengthening the muscles you need for winging. I don't use a harness and only wing above 15 knots, below that a kitefoil is more fun. Sometimes a sailboard but that's really hard work. I'm 57 years old.

What exercises did physio give you airsail to help support back and shoulders for winging

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nerdycross said..

airsail said..
I've found the opposite, windsurfing then kitesurf and now winging. Shoulder surgery on the left shoulder a few years ago and a first winging caused pain. Off to the physio who showed me weigh exercises to strengthen my back and shoulder muscles.
The pain I was experiencing is now gone, I can wing for several hours and come in fresh. It's all about strengthening the muscles you need for winging. I don't use a harness and only wing above 15 knots, below that a kitefoil is more fun. Sometimes a sailboard but that's really hard work. I'm 57 years old.

What exercises did physio give you airsail to help support back and shoulders for winging

Nerdycross, the exercises involve rowing while standing using elastic straps. This strengthens the back and shoulder muscles and mimics holding a wing. Also stretching the pectoral muscles so the back muscles hold the shoulder joint in position. And push-ups.

57, you're still a kid with 20 years ahead of you.....
I also did ws, kiting, back to ws, windfoil, and dabbling wing.
Wing is hard. Got 15 years on you. Balancing a 100 liter on knees in chop is...entertaining.
Of course, waterstarting in chop in sub 10 is challenging.
Seems.....flat water and 19 with 6' surf, sideshore wind, is just a dream.

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airsail said..

nerdycross said..

airsail said..
I've found the opposite, windsurfing then kitesurf and now winging. Shoulder surgery on the left shoulder a few years ago and a first winging caused pain. Off to the physio who showed me weigh exercises to strengthen my back and shoulder muscles.
The pain I was experiencing is now gone, I can wing for several hours and come in fresh. It's all about strengthening the muscles you need for winging. I don't use a harness and only wing above 15 knots, below that a kitefoil is more fun. Sometimes a sailboard but that's really hard work. I'm 57 years old.

What exercises did physio give you airsail to help support back and shoulders for winging

Nerdycross, the exercises involve rowing while standing using elastic straps. This strengthens the back and shoulder muscles and mimics holding a wing. Also stretching the pectoral muscles so the back muscles hold the shoulder joint in position. And push-ups.

I am on the right track then airsail as I do all those and crunches for core strength too !

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airsail said..
I've found the opposite, windsurfing then kitesurf and now winging. Shoulder surgery on the left shoulder a few years ago and a first winging caused pain. Off to the physio who showed me weigh exercises to strengthen my back and shoulder muscles.
The pain I was experiencing is now gone, I can wing for several hours and come in fresh. It's all about strengthening the muscles you need for winging. I don't use a harness and only wing above 15 knots, below that a kitefoil is more fun. Sometimes a sailboard but that's really hard work. I'm 57 years old.

I agree. Winging is far easier on the body than windsurfing. Once you have the winging technique reasonably down pat, there's very little force going through your body because the foils are so efficient at lifting and flying. The force you need to transfer from the wing to the foil is way less than with windsurfing. I usually wingding in sub 15 knots for 1.5 hrs with no harness and have no issues with stiff or sore muscles. I've also had shoulder problems in the past but rotator cuff exercises helped.

Windfoiling is much easier on the body than windsurfing. The sail size I use windfoiling is about 2m smaller than what I use windsurfing in the same wind strength. Foiling is also much easier on my knees in chop. Pumping is vigorous but easier with the smaller sails and tighter leeches. I was grazing my knee on the board non skid from uphauling, but I solved this problem by installing a full pva deck on my board.

I have no personal experience winging, but my mate has had a few problems with tendonitis, bursitis and bruising on his knees. He seems OK now that he is winging fit.

I have tried both wind and wing foiling and ultimately decided to go for windfoiling (more precisely the racing aspect of it . ie. big sails and small frontwings). Going fast on the foil in lightwinds (under 16 knots) is in my experience way more fun than using a more "freeride/freestyle" foiling kit (small sails and big front wing). Compared to this, winging is actually a better option in my experience, it is way easier to rig and you do have lots of fun cruising around. So the conclusion in my opinion:

Racing windsurf foil (meaning big sails and small wings for speed) > Winging > Freeride windsurf foil (meaning small sails and big wings for lift)

I hope this helps in your decision :)

I often rig around 25 different sailors, usually as the wind 1st starts to rise.
The fastest riggers out of the 3 disiplines is the fastest rigger, regardless whether he windsurfs, windfoils, or wingfoils.
The last on the water is the one who hesitates, looks at the wind repeatedly, talks to everyone, and is anal about checking everything 3 times.
Windsurf, windfoil, or wingsurf.

Lebechito wrote, "Going fast on the foil in lightwinds (under 16 knots) is in my experience way more fun...."

Same for fin. Going fast on a fin in lightwinds (under 16 knots) was in my experience way more fun...because I used formula gear at the time.

Back to the foil. I am no expert, but I like to foil with a 7.0 in conditions where most other foilers are out with 5.0-5.5 (similar body weights). Even with a big and relatively slow wing.

I don't think any of these wing vs windfoil opinions are useful unless people specify what conditions they foil in and at what level
For example, on a lake in light winds it makes sense race windfoil gear is fun - but not so much riding ocean swells in 25 knots.

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CoreAS said..
2.5 years of winging and it's got nothing to do with regular soreness!!

Elbow tendonitis (sometimes called tennis elbow) is a muscle strain injury, feels like a hot knife sticking in the joint, when the wind is light, and you are working the tendon repeatedly to pump the wing and keep the wing sheeted in thus inflames the muscled strained area.

Tennis Elbow is miserable. I got it bad with windfoiling and had to use Theraband to control the pain. Hated it, after every windfoil session would flair up in my right arm. For some reason, Winging doesn't impact me at all. The only after effect so far with winging is my fingers feel strained and somewhat cramped up but it doesn't last long and not nearly as bad as the Tennis Elbow from windfoiling.

Try the Theraband when you get the chance, it really does help manage (not eliminate) the pain.

DC

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Dcharlton said..

CoreAS said..
2.5 years of winging and it's got nothing to do with regular soreness!!

Elbow tendonitis (sometimes called tennis elbow) is a muscle strain injury, feels like a hot knife sticking in the joint, when the wind is light, and you are working the tendon repeatedly to pump the wing and keep the wing sheeted in thus inflames the muscled strained area.

Tennis Elbow is miserable. I got it bad with windfoiling and had to use Theraband to control the pain. Hated it, after every windfoil session would flair up in my right arm. For some reason, Winging doesn't impact me at all. The only after effect so far with winging is my fingers feel strained and somewhat cramped up but it doesn't last long and not nearly as bad as the Tennis Elbow from windfoiling.

Try the Theraband when you get the chance, it really does help manage (not eliminate) the pain.

DC

So interesting how you got it from windfoiling but yet winging doesn't affect it??

I managed to get the inflammation almost gone now (right arm also), I used this dial band on the water, its like the dial on road bike shoes so you can hit the spot just right with the right pressure. I also watched you tube videos and using a soft ball to roll out the outer forearm. it hurt like hell but its worked and I've been pain free for a while.

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Dcharlton said..

CoreAS said..
2.5 years of winging and it's got nothing to do with regular soreness!!

Elbow tendonitis (sometimes called tennis elbow) is a muscle strain injury, feels like a hot knife sticking in the joint, when the wind is light, and you are working the tendon repeatedly to pump the wing and keep the wing sheeted in thus inflames the muscled strained area.

Tennis Elbow is miserable. I got it bad with windfoiling and had to use Theraband to control the pain. Hated it, after every windfoil session would flair up in my right arm. For some reason, Winging doesn't impact me at all. The only after effect so far with winging is my fingers feel strained and somewhat cramped up but it doesn't last long and not nearly as bad as the Tennis Elbow from windfoiling.

Try the Theraband when you get the chance, it really does help manage (not eliminate) the pain.

DC

Seconding this. I now have 3 different stiffnesses/colors and they help a lot.

Can it be the case that wind foiling and wing foiling is better suited to particular physical body size for each discipline ??

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Dcharlton said..

CoreAS said..
2.5 years of winging and it's got nothing to do with regular soreness!!

Elbow tendonitis (sometimes called tennis elbow) is a muscle strain injury, feels like a hot knife sticking in the joint, when the wind is light, and you are working the tendon repeatedly to pump the wing and keep the wing sheeted in thus inflames the muscled strained area.

Tennis Elbow is miserable. I got it bad with windfoiling and had to use Theraband to control the pain. Hated it, after every windfoil session would flair up in my right arm. For some reason, Winging doesn't impact me at all. The only after effect so far with winging is my fingers feel strained and somewhat cramped up but it doesn't last long and not nearly as bad as the Tennis Elbow from windfoiling.

Try the Theraband when you get the chance, it really does help manage (not eliminate) the pain.

DC

Tennis elbow is from the tendon getting jolted out of the normal groove in the bone, the tendon in the new position out of the groove is constantly stretched more than normal and also puts pressure on a nerve. Need a good sports physician to pop the tendon back in place, and then a Theraband to keep it in place.

Thought hit my brain after sitting on my tractor blowing snow for +1hr. Rear pto mounted blower means I twist around on the seat to look where I'm heading. Winging when sailing in switch stance. The twisted torso stance with the load of the wing cannot be healthy in the long, long run. Especially when the board starts to pitch and roll along with any jerky tugs of the wing. If winging. Would definitely learn to switch the feet. Watched a video by Alan Cadiz of HST. He smoothly switches stance when changing tacks. Don't see it often in winging YTube videos.

I have got to the enjoyment level on windfoiling using 900mm wide very light 160 board. Thought I would try wingfoiling given I could use foil gear I had. Bought 6 and 4 m sails and 125 litre board being 83kg. Its so much harder as narrow board and no mast boom to steady you leads to fall off frustration in even a small chop. Its hard to get upwind in the light but expect if you actually get up (and can stay up) on the foil it wouldnt be a problem. With a wide windsurfer you can work your way up wind with the rail in the light.
I got carried away and bought a Glidefoil to lessen pumping. Thank goodness as I needed it to "drive" home. Operating it plus balancing was too hard too. Had to deflate the sail front tube to get home.
In summary full respect to the agile experts on the forum who can do it but if you arent really quick on your feet go with windfoiling and a very wide board. Remember what it was like uphauling a 100 litre board in a chop in light winds then nursing it upwind hoping not to fall off..... its a bit worse.

One advantage of wingfoiling was to paddle on prone position with the wing on your feet. Here is the windsurf version of it:

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Mucel said..
One advantage of wingfoiling was to paddle on prone position with the wing on your feet. Here is the windsurf version of it:

Not effective on anything but a large beginner board, especially a foil board with no nose. Tried it several times.
Wingers can prone paddle just about anything.

Also, wingers can paddle over weeds with ease. Just invert the board, lie on it and paddle with the wing floating along on the leash.

We can't do that with a windfoiling setup since the sail acts like a huge sea anchor. Well, yes, you can do it, but it is really slow.

When the Columbia River gets weedy late in summer, I have to just gut it out and slog through the weeds. When I am in deep enough water, I drop in and clear the 50 pounds of weed gunk off the foil, drift away from it (or you pick it up again), then waterstart or uphaul and foil off into the sunset. The wingers just paddle over it all.