Who has started windfoiling then switched to wingfoiling but now reverting back to foiling with a sail , if so why .

I do both. I like winging because you can fly through tacks quite easily and its a lot more free overall. I like windfoiling because on my freeride kit I regularly pass 50kph and easily compete with local slalomracers across the wind carrying half the sail. It all feels a little more agressive & on edge resulting in a lot bigger adrenaline rush. In addition, at the end of a slalom/speedrun you can do a backloop on flat water!! I dont have straps on my wingboard yet, my new board with straps is coming mid august.

I started doing more windfoiling again lately because winging results in nasty backpain for me. Think im 60/40 wind/wing now, while last few months i was 20/80.

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WhiteofHeart said..
I do both. I like winging because you can fly through tacks quite easily and its a lot more free overall. I like windfoiling because on my freeride kit I regularly pass 50kph and easily compete with local slalomracers across the wind carrying half the sail. It all feels a little more agressive & on edge resulting in a lot bigger adrenaline rush. In addition, at the end of a slalom/speedrun you can do a backloop on flat water!! I dont have straps on my wingboard yet, my new board with straps is coming mid august.

I started doing more windfoiling again lately because winging results in nasty backpain for me. Think im 60/40 wind/wing now, while last few months i was 20/80.

Hi
Once flying stably on windfoiling with 5,5 m2 sail, 1600 cm2 wing at 12 knots, I've uphauled a lot, checked the difficult entry with shore break, and watched early flying performance on light winds of some wingfoilers, I maybe could try wingfoiling.

The advantages of windfoiling for me were sharing the sails with regular windsurfing, easiness and a better supposed performance than wingfoiling in light wind compared with the same size of wing and sail. Wingfoiling could be more demanding for my shoulders and neck injuries and more difficult to learn. Any experience regarding back and shoulders injuries on wingfoiling is higly appreciated.

Sooner or later I will rent a 5-6 m wing and put my NP glide large foil in the very front of the us tracks of my windsurf 112 l x 73 freeride board. I'll check if I could fly stepping forward of windsurfing straps. Maybe I will have to admit wingfoiling is not only cool marketing.

Cheers

I went and came back.

Just wasn't feeling how inefficient winging (at least with V1 Wasp) felt. Also my balance is pretty bad so I couldn't ever crack the depowered wave riding on the wing like I can windfoiling.

Also wings seem nearly disposable in terms of durability, sails last me 6-8 years. My favorite activity in the ocean is wavesailing, I'll always have sails, so the wings just added gear to my quiver instead of reducing it.

I'll consider winging again once they figure out the efficiency (seems close) and durability such that a 2 year old wing still has lots of life in it (long way to go).

I go back and forth!

I find winging so much more location dependent! mowing the lawn while winging in 10-15 flat water kind of gets boring but with wind foiling I can bust out more tricks and it feels more natural to push myself.

Winging: I Love the simplicity of loading the car quickly with a small wing board, one foil, one or two wings and the freedom of movement with no harness. When the wind is light it takes much more physical effort to pump and keep going, and it does exploit old injuries after a long session

Wind foiling: I'm heavier guy but can wind foil with a 4.5 in 12-14 knots and infinity 76 wing, its super fun in the swell carving, I feel more connected and overall much better at wind foiling than winging.

I had a guy try to sell me a wing when I was windfoiling, have seen a very experienced kite foiler try to learn wing foiling, he got exhausted quickly and have not seen him since, then have seen experienced wing foilers cruise around close to shore and then get tired after maybe an hour and then stop for the day.

So for now I am sticking with windfoiling, can go far off shore and foil for 3-4 hours without getting exhausted as long as I use my harness lines.

Wow that's some real interesting stuff on foiling I can relate and agree with all the comments on wing/wind foil and with fin I still love sailing my slapper but have been totally addicted to foil after taking up foiling last year. only sailed my wave board a hand full of times in 12 months but foiled at least two or three times a week ! I'm going see how wings develop in the near futures think then maybe give one a try but at moment windfoiling is working for me.
Just loving it

I tried wingfoiling again today. Wind was 14-20. Used my 6.4 V2 and i99 front wind mounted on a Slingshot Shred Sled. Tried for 30 minutes and couldn't get flying. Got fed up with it. Rigged my 6.0 Flyer on my Levitator 150 with the i84 front wing. Went out a ripped for a few hours. Honestly could have used my 4.8 Duotone Super. Plenty powered on the 6.0.

As for the wingfoiling, I am reasonably sure my technique is not great, but if it's blowing above 20mph I can get going just fine. I can start with either foot forward too, even though I am goofy foot. I really want to wingfoil, but I don't see it replacing the windfoil in anything under 20mph for me.

Side note... I really liked the Shred Sled for it's flotaa.d stability, even though I didn't get it on foil.

I am going to sell my KT Surfing Wing Drifter Pro 6'x20" 130 Liters and just wingfoil on my Levitator when I want to try it again.

I keep hearing wingfoilers talk about how wingfoiling is more fun in the waves than their former windfoiling or kitefoiling sports.

We have a flat. And when there is a wind of 10-12 knots, I take a 9.8 sail and ride the fin perfectly. Swingers drive very slowly. I even overtook one swinger and shouted to him "come on, come on faster". How he looked at me with displeasure and sadness. For the windsurf foil, I use the wing 890-930. 890-930 the wing is faster than the swing foil. And a gust of wind of 8 knots is enough for me to take off. The swinger has the only plus that he needs a wind of 7 knots.

Although I have not tried Winging, when I am asked about foiling I just encourage people to try which ever discipline appeals to them because Foiling is Fun. That said I do believe if you have windsurfing experience Windfoiling will be the easiest discipline to get your first flights, less than 30 min for most. However Windfoiling transitions require a foot switch, which is not required Winging, making Windfoiling transitions a little trickier.

What I have noticed is Winging started out a few years ago with big stable SUP type foils allowing for low wind flights. While Windfoiling started with smaller less stable foils. Now there is a lot of overlap and many of the flight characteristics are similar on similar foils. Or put another way if both are on the same foil the stability, wind requirements and maneuverability are similar.

Because I am all about the EASY/FUN ratio I will stick with Windfoiling on a floaty board as I like to be able to easily drift home in sketchy conditions and I am not sure my old bad back will allow me to ride switch. Despite Wingfoiling looking fun.

I would like to see a light wind performance benchmark between wingfoiling and windfoiling using the same foil size, sail/wing size, similar board, and similar guy weight

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Mucel said..
I would like to see a light wind performance benchmark between wingfoiling and windfoiling using the same foil size, sail/wing size, similar board, and similar guy weight

it would be very close i reckon and I might put my money on the winding

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Mucel said..
I would like to see a light wind performance benchmark between wingfoiling and windfoiling using the same foil size, sail/wing size, similar board, and similar guy weight

Board would be too big for winging and foil maybe too small. They don't correlate.
I do know that low end on a wing is far more dependant on sailor skill.

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Grantmac said..

Mucel said..
I would like to see a light wind performance benchmark between wingfoiling and windfoiling using the same foil size, sail/wing size, similar board, and similar guy weight

Board would be too big for winging and foil maybe too small. They don't correlate.
I do know that low end on a wing is far more dependant on sailor skill.

There is a range in common to compare. Big front wings (1500-2000 cm2), small sails (5-6 m2), boards around 180-200 cm long, 110-130 litres. Too small boards for winging are not good in light wind, I've heard.

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Mucel said..
I would like to see a light wind performance benchmark between wingfoiling and windfoiling using the same foil size, sail/wing size, similar board, and similar guy weight

I assume with "performance benchmark", you mean how well you can get going. I cannot give you the "same size" benchmark, but I can give you a different comparison that allows some conclusions. I've been windsurfing with my wife for more than 10 years, with similar skills on the windsurfer but different (steady) weights. On the windsurfer, there was a predictable difference in sail sizes that would get us going the same way, for example 5.6 for me and 4.5 for her, or 6.5 and 5.2 (on 90 l and 110 l boards, giving us similar flotation).

When we got past the beginner level at wind foiling, the size differences remained the same. She used an i76, I used the i84.

When she switched to winging, she initially used a larger foil, either an i84 or i99. After a year, she switched to a foil more comparable to the i76 in size (Armstrong 1550 V2). There was a bit of a learning curve on that foil; she had a hard time getting going in the first sessions, and a higher wind minimum than on the i84. But after figuring out the foil, we are now back to similar sail/wing size differences, typically 6.5 and 5.4 or 5.6 and 4.2. But now, I slog a lot more than she does when it is marginal. She can get going a bit earlier, but the even bigger difference is that she almost never comes of the foil unless she tries stuff like 360s or foil tacks (which she foils through only on flat water). She's done 2 hour sessions where she had to start just 2 or 3 times, with lots of swell riding (which she regards as much more fun on the wing than with a sail) during the session.

My takeaway is that winging has a better bottom end than freeride foiling, but that it may take some time to develop the skills to get there (one year in her case, but she's a quick learner with lots of TOW). Many wingers you may see on the water are beginners or intermediates, and may not yet have the skills to get the most out of the wings at the bottom end.

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boardsurfr said..

My takeaway is that winging has a better bottom end than freeride foiling, but that it may take some time to develop the skills to get there (one year in her case, but she's a quick learner with lots of TOW). Many wingers you may see on the water are beginners or intermediates, and may not yet have the skills to get the most out of the wings at the bottom end.

Probably right

Depends on multiple factors with regards to light wind performance.

Water state (choppy) and gusty winds can make winging pretty difficult to initially get foiling, you can generate more low end power with a sail.

In a dead flat water state once you are flying you can pump the wing and board longer in a hole than a sail and foil.

Smaller wing boards are much easier to pump up onto the foil than large wing boards, again it all depends on your local water state.

Launching through surf or voodoo chop on a small wing board is quite tricky if the wind is light on the inside, so having a board with a bit more volume can make things more stable and give you a bit more confidence, just means you have to work harder at pumping the board up onto the foil.

My experience, even as a very newbie winger, tracks with CoreAS.

I never see wings out when im on my race kit foiling around, they usually come out once we get around 5 knots more breeze.

My big windfoil gear is far more efficient than my big wingfoil gear, the windfoil sail is 1m bigger than the wing gear. I'll windfoil in light wind, but when it's really blowing I prefer to be winging.

My biggest sail is a 7.0 (with the i99 foil) and my biggest wing is also a 7.0. I'm now using as my biggest foil a 1440 higher aspect front foil for winging and I can now get on foil faster winging. The big advantage with winging is ease of setup and ultra short high volume boards, which will pack up in a car with fold down rear seats. I love wind foiling but I can understand why so many are now exclusively or semi-exclusively into winging.

I suspect just about everyone who doesn't have a windsurfing background will pick winging over wind foiling if they are interested in a foiling experience using the wind to power them up onto the foil.

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dejavu said..
My biggest sail is a 7.0 (with the i99 foil) and my biggest wing is also a 7.0. I'm now using as my biggest foil a 1440 higher aspect front foil for winging and I can now get on foil faster winging. The big advantage with winging is ease of setup and ultra short high volume boards, which will pack up in a car with fold down rear seats. I love wind foiling but I can understand why so many are now exclusively or semi-exclusively into winging.

I suspect just about everyone who doesn't have a windsurfing background will pick winging over wind foiling if they are interested in a foiling experience using the wind to power them up onto the foil.

I desperately want to embrace the wingy thingy, but I feel I need an 8.0 wingy to even have a chance at getting going in wind under 18mph. Last Saturday I tried my i99 and 6.4 Slingwing V2 and could not get in foil in 14-20mph wind. Switched to my windfoiling gear and a 6.0 Flyer with an i84 and was immediately flying around. Could probably have gone to a 4.8 sail as the wind increased a little bit later in the day. Several guys who wingfoil by us are lighter than me by 20-40 pounds and I use a smaller sail than they use when winging. Generally, what ever the kiteboard crew is using, I rig half of that.

I do both. Winging is more fun in swell and easier to carry around. Windfoiling is faster and maybe more fun on flat water.

My 5m wing and (2100cm2) foil get going in about the same as a 5.3 windsurf sail and i76 (1500cm2) foil.

Race foiling has entirely replaced formula in my area. They are flying in very light wind and sailing long distances. I think for long distance and course racing, windfoiling is a winner.

With that said, there's a significant number of people who just like freeride and probably didn't even like to be on a 9.0 sail. They have been getting freeride-oriented foils especially this summer and they are obviously far behind the racers who got into foiling years ago. Sail sizes are typically between 5.0 and 7.0. The minimum required wind is probably about the same as for freeride with large sails, but once on a foil, upwind angles are much better. Most of them are still learning and tuning, so it's interesting to follow their development.

We have just a couple people using wings at our location. The top wing guy switches to windfoil for the really light conditions. Winging performance in light winds seems more comparable with the freeride windfoilers, but given the small sample size, I think it's too early to draw conclusions.

I started windfoiling with a Slingshot FWind1 (Gamma 68 <1000cm^2 front wing) a few years ago and mostly sailed with a 7.5 sail. Light wind was OK, but the gear was still a bit on the heavy side. If the wind picked up, I didn't feel comfortable foiling on that gear. I switched to an SS Infinity 76 front wing last summer and started using slightly smaller sails (6.6 and 5.8) and found it worked better and was also better in slightly stronger wind.

I got a Duotone Slick 5.0 wing this summer and started with the Infinity 76, but soon switched to a Takuma Helium foil. I'm still learning, but I have used this kit in conditions gusting up to 30 knots and it didn't feel dangerously out of control. I need a decent gust to get on the foil, so my pumping technique definitely needs work. It's too early to say what the light wind potential will be for me. I'm hoping to achieve foiling in 10-12 knots, but it's closer to 16 knots right now, so I'm a long way off. (I weigh 70kg.)

I also like how easy the gear is to handle on the beach. I like that it's easy to paddle with the wingfoil gear and in zero wind, the wing itself can be used as a paddle. In terms of getting back to the beach when the wind drops completely, the wing has an advantage.

Speaking of wind strength though... We have a weather station that right there in the middle of the bay almost exactly 1km away from the launch site. If I measure the wind on the beach with a handheld anemometer, I'm probably going to see much lower numbers. We also don't get swell unless it's really windy, so you can't ride the waves to get on the foil. Because of that, I find comparing "absolute numbers" of how much wind you need to get foiling a bit tricky. I could say that the wind was 6 knots average on the beach with 10 knot gusts on Tuesday, but it was actually 10 knots average with 18 knot top gusts according to our weather station (and I was able to wingfoil in the gusts). Someone else might say that they were foiling in 8 knots, but the spot might have an ocean swell.

Hi
All of us have different conditions (skill, preferences, spots) to approach foil. My focus is freeriding and waveriding.

From waveriding point of view, I see that both wind and wingfoiling are not easy to get into shore break and they don't have either the acceleration of kitesurfing to cross the sets. They prefer to surf soft swells far from sea shore. You can use windfoiling as WWF (big foils and small sails), but wingfoiling has an advantage in surfing. Anyway, in 15 knots side shore conditions I'd prefer regular float and ride windsurfing as it's more simple and manoeuvrable in contact with water surface.

I wanted foil to have more light wind days on the water. It seems that windfoiling will give them to me easier in the beginning at least, and using the same windsurfing sails. Wingfoiling would add more new gear

To sum up It seems I should keep on windfoiling, although wingfoiling attracts for the freedom and simple rigging

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JuriM said..
Speaking of wind strength though... We have a weather station that right there in the middle of the bay almost exactly 1km away from the launch site. If I measure the wind on the beach with a handheld anemometer, I'm probably going to see much lower numbers. We also don't get swell unless it's really windy, so you can't ride the waves to get on the foil. Because of that, I find comparing "absolute numbers" of how much wind you need to get foiling a bit tricky. I could say that the wind was 6 knots average on the beach with 10 knot gusts on Tuesday, but it was actually 10 knots average with 18 knot top gusts according to our weather station (and I was able to wingfoil in the gusts). Someone else might say that they were foiling in 8 knots, but the spot might have an ocean swell.

Very good point! I wish people would state exactly what they base the wind estimates on. Many weather stations are 5-10 m above the water, where the wind is always stronger than where a sail or wing catches it. The difference can be quite large if the surface is rough, like large chop or waves. On Cape Cod, we have one meter that consistently reads a few knots higher than all other meters, simply because it's on a taller pole and has a clean fetch from most directions.

Of course, how much handheld meters and weather stations differ also depends on the surroundings. Even the high reading meter I mentioned reads low in one direction, when the dunes nearby line up with were the wind is coming from.

I was always puzzled how speed surfers in Oz posted 30+ knots in wind reported as 12-14 knots, the only windsurfers who'd even be planing here are the really light ones willing to rig big. Once I got to sail the same spots, though, I realized that the reported readings were usually from handheld meters on shore; most iWindsurf meters would have reported 15-18 knots instead. The incredible flatness of the water explained most of the remainder.

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excav8ter said..

dejavu said..
My biggest sail is a 7.0 (with the i99 foil) and my biggest wing is also a 7.0. I'm now using as my biggest foil a 1440 higher aspect front foil for winging and I can now get on foil faster winging. The big advantage with winging is ease of setup and ultra short high volume boards, which will pack up in a car with fold down rear seats. I love wind foiling but I can understand why so many are now exclusively or semi-exclusively into winging.

I suspect just about everyone who doesn't have a windsurfing background will pick winging over wind foiling if they are interested in a foiling experience using the wind to power them up onto the foil.

I desperately want to embrace the wingy thingy, but I feel I need an 8.0 wingy to even have a chance at getting going in wind under 18mph. Last Saturday I tried my i99 and 6.4 Slingwing V2 and could not get in foil in 14-20mph wind. Switched to my windfoiling gear and a 6.0 Flyer with an i84 and was immediately flying around. Could probably have gone to a 4.8 sail as the wind increased a little bit later in the day. Several guys who wingfoil by us are lighter than me by 20-40 pounds and I use a smaller sail than they use when winging. Generally, what ever the kiteboard crew is using, I rig half of that.

I'm using a 7.0 metre Slick and a 1440 Kijura foil for light wind winging. The higher aspect foils are efficient and have a lot less drag than the larger lower aspect foils. The HA foils need speed to lift but once you learn how to pump the wind wing effectively (just bite down and practice) and how much to bear off the wind they achieve the required speed easily and lift smoothly with little chance of stalling and little to no "hump" to get over. I wing foil in winds where I never see a whitecap for the entire session -- maybe gusty 3 to 10 or 11 knots if I'm lucky. My 7.0 gets a lot of use. The biggest improvement I've made with winging so far is my skill at pumping the board up onto foil -- if you can't get on foil then what's the point? The same goes for wind foiling. I used to watch the guys in Youtube winging videos pump themselves up onto foil with just a few pumps in light winds and I'd wonder how on earth they could do that -- it took some effort but now I can. I used to find getting on foil wind foiling much easier than getting on foil wind winging -- now its not even a consideration no matter what the wind strength. I learned a long time ago that as long as you're not seriously hurting yourself then you need to hang in there, sometimes take a step back and think about what you're trying to accomplish and the best way to do that and then get right back at it!

Here's the rub -- both wind foiling and wing foiling are great sports but if you engage with both there's a tendency to start to prefer one over the other for a number of reasons: (1) you're better at one and therefore you would rather participate in the sport that you're more comfortable with (we tend to want to stay within our comfort zone); (2) convenience (equipment -- easier to set up or travel with) or (3) expense (already have masts, booms and sails) and you don't want to buy more than the one wing and board with which you already took a chance (risk). I now find that I have to consciously force myself to rig a sail and go wind foiling -- once I'm up on foil I'm happy. I'm going to start setting up both and after taking a break I'll switch. Sometimes you just have to take a deep breath, hold it and take the leap (of faith). Life is short and I don't want to miss out participating in both sports since they both have so much to offer.

Was Windfoiling for 4 years and loving it but started to get frustrated with the range. I changed my foil 3 different times on an up and down day lugging my heavy gear in and out of the break all the while my friend was killing it on the Wing handling up and down conditions easily.

After punching him on the beach repeatedly out of jealousy I decided to try winging and by the 3rd session I was hooked, bought new winging gear and sold my windfoiling gear. I just love the connection to the water, ease of getting in and out of the water and the overall crazy zen like fun!

I'm still in love with windsurf wave sailing and nothing beats a cross offshore day but I find the range, fun and accessibility to be unbeatable in Winging vs Windfoiling.

DC

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dejavu said..

excav8ter said..

dejavu said..
My biggest sail is a 7.0 (with the i99 foil) and my biggest wing is also a 7.0. I'm now using as my biggest foil a 1440 higher aspect front foil for winging and I can now get on foil faster winging. The big advantage with winging is ease of setup and ultra short high volume boards, which will pack up in a car with fold down rear seats. I love wind foiling but I can understand why so many are now exclusively or semi-exclusively into winging.

I suspect just about everyone who doesn't have a windsurfing background will pick winging over wind foiling if they are interested in a foiling experience using the wind to power them up onto the foil.

I desperately want to embrace the wingy thingy, but I feel I need an 8.0 wingy to even have a chance at getting going in wind under 18mph. Last Saturday I tried my i99 and 6.4 Slingwing V2 and could not get in foil in 14-20mph wind. Switched to my windfoiling gear and a 6.0 Flyer with an i84 and was immediately flying around. Could probably have gone to a 4.8 sail as the wind increased a little bit later in the day. Several guys who wingfoil by us are lighter than me by 20-40 pounds and I use a smaller sail than they use when winging. Generally, what ever the kiteboard crew is using, I rig half of that.

Here's the rub -- both wind foiling and wing foiling are great sports but if you engage with both there's a tendency to start to prefer one over the other for a number of reasons: (1) you're better at one and therefore you would rather participate in the sport that you're more comfortable with (we tend to want to stay within our comfort zone); (2) convenience (equipment -- easier to set up or travel with) or (3) expense (already have masts, booms and sails) and you don't want to buy more than the one wing and board with which you already took a chance (risk). I now find that I have to consciously force myself to rig a sail and go wind foiling -- once I'm up on foil I'm happy. I'm going to start setting up both and after taking a break I'll switch. Sometimes you just have to take a deep breath, hold it and take the leap (of faith). Life is short and I don't want to miss out participating in both sports since they both have so much to offer.

Exactly why I have been going back and forth, I was one of the first to get a wing in Texas when the slingshot V1 came out and every thought it was goofy, but I was blown away of feeling like I could surf on a foil in very little swell. I needed a lot of wind for that wing (over 20 knots).

The next summer all I done was wing (V2 was heaps better), didn't even load the sails, masts or boom, as I way determined to master the wing gybe.

For a while now I have been back on the wind foil again, its purely down to moving to a new location! as its summer most of the wind direction is cross onshore, the wind is super gusty and using a sail and ploughing through the surf to the wind line is so much easier. Sometimes the wind switches off and so standing still on the wizard 130 is no problem, then when I catch the swell I can really drive the i76 wing hard. I tried winging in exactly the same conditions and just found myself constantly trying to pinch upwind, I caught a few chunks but not as good.... Really its all down to choosing the best equipment for any given day.

I am looking forward to the Fall as we should get solid cross shore winds then I'll for sure be in trouble deciding which kit shall I use, because doing downwinders in head high surf will be fun no matter sail or wing