www.riwmag.com/pwa-slalom-a-pozo-al-confine-tra-pinna-e-foil/ English version at the bottom

"RIWmag interviewed some of the best competitors in both the women's and men's fleet:
Marion Mortefon (BETWEEN | Fanatic / Duotone)
Sarah-Quita Offringa (ARU | Starboard / NeilPryde / Maui Ultra Fins)
Maciek Rutkowski (POL | FMX Racing / Challenger Sails)
Pierre Mortefon (BETWEEN | Fanatic / Duotone / Chopper Fins / Phantom Foils)"

Different opinions and many of us here will find something to agree with. Big thing I got was that it was a bit last minute at a venue many, if not most, had never raced before so before we get all doom and gloom about the attendance something to consider.

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WillyWind said..

aeroegnr said..
Open question on that:

The newer SLR 880 with mk ii higher aspect tail may outperform the iqfoil, but does anyone have experience with this in course racing? Much more slippery looking. Combine it with a 100cm wide board and ???

Yeah, I am really curious to see the iQFoil gear v any new course foil/board/sail. At a highly competitive level there might be some difference but I am not sure if the average weekend warrior could extract more out of something newer.

As I've joked about some of my other equipment purchases: a faster foil would mean everyone has to wait around less for me to finish the race and get the next one going. (But I am very curious)

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aeroegnr said..

Subsonic said..

NS320 said..

duzzi said..

racerX said..
They will both go down together....

The wingers already get the first mention in the fuetre world cup. Their tour is already much bigger, hopefully the pwa and the riders don't have their heads in the sand.

I Wonder what the prize money is for the GWA slalom winner...

rene-egli.com/windsurfing/events/world-cup-2023

There were 422 entrants in the European Youth IQ Foil this year. And 203 entrants at the European IQ Foil (114 men and 89 Women.) Registration for the Worlds is already north of 200. One board - One sail.

For the PWA there were 61 entrants at the Lake Garda (50 men and 11 women), and 37 (28 men and 9 women) at Gran Canaria. A deluge of equipment to carry along: three boards - six sails.

There is surely more than one reason why PWA is sinking, but the format is clearly not helping.

IQ Foil is also obsolete technology, which is inevitable in one design yacht racing. I realize that at the youth and Olympic levels one design works reasonably well. However, given the huge profile of the Olympics it is unfortunate that it cannot be a proving ground for technology development. It is the PWA that is at the leading edge of technology but the field is too small and the money too little to have the kind of impact that could happen on the Olympic side.

Define obsolete.

iq foil is course racing gear. Its not on the same design parameters as slalom foil. As much as slalom foil gear is much faster out of the traps, you wont beat some one on iq gear to a top mark, or around an upwind/downwind course on it.

yes olympic status does mean a very slow development (if any) and whilst other manufacturers are free to do development on course racing foil gear they might offer, course racing gear is going to very limited in development as it is.

right now the iq foil is still very competitive at what its drsigned for. Give it a few more years, maybe it'll be obsolete, but not right now its not.

Open question on that:

The newer SLR 880 with mk ii higher aspect tail may outperform the iqfoil, but does anyone have experience with this in course racing? Much more slippery looking. Combine it with a 100cm wide board and ???

Yeah, i'd be very interested to see some real world data as well. I would guess it's probably marginally quicker in a test tank, but would it be the difference around a course...

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thedoor said..
If I got it correctly it looked like in the European foil finals the event organizer decided if races would be fin or foil. Is that correct?

NO. There was not enough wind or the current was too strong to run the fin races (<10 knots in the heats). Many just came for the fins race, many disappointed that the wind didn't turn up, but that is windsurfing. I was there.

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For PWA I still like the idea of combined races up until the finals then do a fin final and a foil final worth equal points.

You won't see a repeat of Pozo, the pro aren't silly. Mateo announced that was probably his last fin race in the current format. Some will still sail on the fin for promotional reasons when they can, or until there rules change otherwise they should just rename it and stop pretending...

As much as I enjoyed the racing fin v foil if it was foil only I wouldn't have watched as it has no relevance to my world. Foils have their place but they are restricted by seaweed and shallows, fins aren't. Who wants to race wearing neck braces all the time. Yes foils are faster in the corners but fins still have the straights and that's what it made it interesting for me. As Ben said "F1 is boring"

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kato said..
fins still have the straights

That has been true in the past, and be default is still true for weedy or shallow places, like the prime speed spots in Oz. But for other places where slalom races are held, fins being faster than foils is becoming more and more rare. I watched a lot of the Pozo races, and it was very rare that fins were able to gain on the foils. There were a few exceptions, like one race where Sara-Quita was absolutely flying, and a race or two when the water was relatively flat. But most of the time, the foils gained in the jibes, and kept their gains on the straights. Sometimes, they gained on the fins in drag races, even when the fins looked powered.

The picture was quite a bit different from a few years ago, when Nico Goyard demonstrated the potential of foils in Israel. There, the wind was lighter, and he was the only foiler going fast. This time around, the picture was very consistent with foilers at the front, and fins back, except for crashes. That was mostly the case even before they hit the inside jibe mark where the wind was so weak that the fins always lost ground.

The other difference was that it was quite windy. Perhaps not for Pozo standards, where you see 95 kg wave sailors on 3.7 m sails jump 10 meters high, but definitely by PWA slalom standards. They did not mention sail sizes much, but in one race that looked pretty typical, Ben mentioned slalom guys being on 6.0 and foilers on 5.1. For PWA slalom, that's a small and rarely used size.

Another interesting trend is that the top foilers are getting heavier. Michelle Becker, who has done quite well in the last 2 PWA slaloms, is a "light" guy at 92 kg, with plans to beef up for the next season. Maciek Rutkowski, the current leader in the rankings, weighs in at a "standard" 95 kg, but two of the young foilers in the top 4 at Lake Garda, Johan Soe and Will McMillan, weigh in at 103 and 110 kg.

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boardsurfr said..

kato said..
fins still have the straights

That has been true in the past, and be default is still true for weedy or shallow places, like the prime speed spots in Oz. But for other places where slalom races are held, fins being faster than foils is becoming more and more rare. I watched a lot of the Pozo races, and it was very rare that fins were able to gain on the foils. There were a few exceptions, like one race where Sara-Quita was absolutely flying, and a race or two when the water was relatively flat. But most of the time, the foils gained in the jibes, and kept their gains on the straights. Sometimes, they gained on the fins in drag races, even when the fins looked powered.

The picture was quite a bit different from a few years ago, when Nico Goyard demonstrated the potential of foils in Israel. There, the wind was lighter, and he was the only foiler going fast. This time around, the picture was very consistent with foilers at the front, and fins back, except for crashes. That was mostly the case even before they hit the inside jibe mark where the wind was so weak that the fins always lost ground.

The other difference was that it was quite windy. Perhaps not for Pozo standards, where you see 95 kg wave sailors on 3.7 m sails jump 10 meters high, but definitely by PWA slalom standards. They did not mention sail sizes much, but in one race that looked pretty typical, Ben mentioned slalom guys being on 6.0 and foilers on 5.1. For PWA slalom, that's a small and rarely used size.

Another interesting trend is that the top foilers are getting heavier. Michelle Becker, who has done quite well in the last 2 PWA slaloms, is a "light" guy at 92 kg, with plans to beef up for the next season. Maciek Rutkowski, the current leader in the rankings, weighs in at a "standard" 95 kg, but two of the young foilers in the top 4 at Lake Garda, Johan Soe and Will McMillan, weigh in at 103 and 110 kg.

I think high wind/truly flat water (speed sailing) is now the last hold out of the fin. It's the only realm where the foils are lacking now. Can they surpass the fin there too? Maybe they can, if they can minimise the wetted surface by learning to ride high. I'll be watching for the high speed crashes, popcorn in hand.

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racerX said..

thedoor said..
If I got it correctly it looked like in the European foil finals the event organizer decided if races would be fin or foil. Is that correct?

NO. There was not enough wind or the current was too strong to run the fin races (

For PWA I still like the idea of combined races up until the finals then do a fin final and a foil final worth equal points.

You won't see a repeat of Pozo, the pro aren't silly. Mateo announced that was probably his last fin race in the current format. Some will still sail on the fin for promotional reasons when they can, or until there rules change otherwise they should just rename it and stop pretending...

Very cool thanks. so for the European finals is there a separate fin/foil title or its full combined like PWA?

Completely separate, at the moment foils only race up to steady 15 knots. Perhaps that will change when there is a real appetite for it. But mixed fleet racing, IMHO no chance.

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Subsonic said..

boardsurfr said..

kato said..
fins still have the straights

That has been true in the past, and be default is still true for weedy or shallow places, like the prime speed spots in Oz. But for other places where slalom races are held, fins being faster than foils is becoming more and more rare. I watched a lot of the Pozo races, and it was very rare that fins were able to gain on the foils. There were a few exceptions, like one race where Sara-Quita was absolutely flying, and a race or two when the water was relatively flat. But most of the time, the foils gained in the jibes, and kept their gains on the straights. Sometimes, they gained on the fins in drag races, even when the fins looked powered.

The picture was quite a bit different from a few years ago, when Nico Goyard demonstrated the potential of foils in Israel. There, the wind was lighter, and he was the only foiler going fast. This time around, the picture was very consistent with foilers at the front, and fins back, except for crashes. That was mostly the case even before they hit the inside jibe mark where the wind was so weak that the fins always lost ground.

The other difference was that it was quite windy. Perhaps not for Pozo standards, where you see 95 kg wave sailors on 3.7 m sails jump 10 meters high, but definitely by PWA slalom standards. They did not mention sail sizes much, but in one race that looked pretty typical, Ben mentioned slalom guys being on 6.0 and foilers on 5.1. For PWA slalom, that's a small and rarely used size.

Another interesting trend is that the top foilers are getting heavier. Michelle Becker, who has done quite well in the last 2 PWA slaloms, is a "light" guy at 92 kg, with plans to beef up for the next season. Maciek Rutkowski, the current leader in the rankings, weighs in at a "standard" 95 kg, but two of the young foilers in the top 4 at Lake Garda, Johan Soe and Will McMillan, weigh in at 103 and 110 kg.

I think high wind/truly flat water (speed sailing) is now the last hold out of the fin. It's the only realm where the foils are lacking now. Can they surpass the fin there too? Maybe they can, if they can minimise the wetted surface by learning to ride high. I'll be watching for the high speed crashes, popcorn in hand.

Well ... it is more than a hold out. Fins are faster by close to 20 knots on a speed course. It will take a loooong time, if ever, to get there. But what has changed is the speed in open water. Max speeds for fins at PWA level are roughly 34-36 knots and for a while foils did not go there. Now they do, maybe a bit slower, and that is one of the reasons fins have not won a PWA race in five years.

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racerX said..
Completely separate, at the moment foils only race up to steady 15 knots. Perhaps that will change when there is a real appetite for it. But mixed fleet racing, IMHO no chance.

So do they crown a fin and foil champion or is everyone expected to sail both fin and foil depending on conditions? Sorry but seems quite opposite to PWA so curious

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thedoor said..

racerX said..tt
Completely separate, at the moment foils only race up to steady 15 knots. Perhaps that will change when there is a real appetite for it. But mixed fleet racing, IMHO no chance.

So do they crown a fin and foil champion or is everyone expected to sail both fin and foil depending on conditions? Sorry but seems quite opposite to PWA so curious

Completely separate, for example. Michelle Becker only entered in foil, while tatty, jimmy thieme only entered in fin.

Why is it relevant if the IQ foil gear is obsolete or not? All of the competitors are on the same gear, meaning the playing field is level and the only thing that matters is the rider. That is the point of olympic/one design clases. Which in turn also favors the weekend riders, as they only need one set of equipment. One board, foil and sail, and need to master it. No constant upgrading of equipment. It doesnt matter that newer equipment can go a few knots faster if everyone needs to have the same equipment.

Also from speking to people involved in the olympic circle, the IQ foil class is becoming so popular as it is one of the most afordable high performance clases curently in the olympic program. There is literaly no need for the IQ foil to go faster than equipment permits, and that is great for the sport owerall.

The most sailed windsurfing class at the moment is the Windsurfer LT, as well as being the most sold production board at the moment. Why is that? Beacause its such a high performance board? Nope, not even close. Its cause the entry level is low enough for anyone to enter and afordable. Dont underestimate the competition though. There are excelent sailors at the top of Windsurfer LT races, meaning it is very competitive . With 400+ competitors at last years worlds, i think the numbers speak for themselves.

On the other Hand the PWA needs the foil, as there is where most of the current competitive windsurf is focused (IQ foil). They can also bring in venues that vere previously a no go beacause of prevailing wind conditions. That means more local talent can attend races. Most of the local fast guys cannot afford to go to Tenerife to train with the fin in proper conditions, but they can probably foil every day on their local spot. Meaning the foil is again the winner.

Time will tell where most of the competitions will be heading as they will know best which event they will continue to focus on depending on the competitors interested in them. In my opinion, it is going to be the Foil with a few niche fin events in windy places.

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Karbonko said..
Why is it relevant if the IQ foil gear is obsolete or not? All of the competitors are on the same gear, meaning the playing field is level and the only thing that matters is the rider. That is the point of olympic/one design clases. Which in turn also favors the weekend riders, as they only need one set of equipment. One board, foil and sail, and need to master it. No constant upgrading of equipment. It doesnt matter that newer equipment can go a few knots faster if everyone needs to have the same equipment.

Also from speking to people involved in the olympic circle, the IQ foil class is becoming so popular as it is one of the most afordable high performance clases curently in the olympic program. There is literaly no need for the IQ foil to go faster than equipment permits, and that is great for the sport owerall.

The most sailed windsurfing class at the moment is the Windsurfer LT, as well as being the most sold production board at the moment. Why is that? Beacause its such a high performance board? Nope, not even close. Its cause the entry level is low enough for anyone to enter and afordable. Dont underestimate the competition though. There are excelent sailors at the top of Windsurfer LT races, meaning it is very competitive . With 400+ competitors at last years worlds, i think the numbers speak for themselves.

On the other Hand the PWA needs the foil, as there is where most of the current competitive windsurf is focused (IQ foil). They can also bring in venues that vere previously a no go beacause of prevailing wind conditions. That means more local talent can attend races. Most of the local fast guys cannot afford to go to Tenerife to train with the fin in proper conditions, but they can probably foil every day on their local spot. Meaning the foil is again the winner.

Time will tell where most of the competitions will be heading as they will know best which event they will continue to focus on depending on the competitors interested in them. In my opinion, it is going to be the Foil with a few niche fin events in windy places.

If the battle is between fins and foils racing together not being fair it seems like they need to create one design PWA class for fair racing. Fair racing is not achieved wether on fin or foil when everyone has different gear! They need to choose fin or foil and make everyone run the same gear identical but different manufactures can make it to not kill the industry. This should be like IQ Foil and Olympic sailing where you can buy a 49er from lots of different manufactures like Ovington and Mckay.

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len024 said..

If the battle is between fins and foils racing together not being fair it seems like they need to create one design PWA class for fair racing. Fair racing is not achieved wether on fin or foil when everyone has different gear! They need to choose fin or foil and make everyone run the same gear identical but different manufactures can make it to not kill the industry. This should be like IQ Foil and Olympic sailing where you can buy a 49er from lots of different manufactures like Ovington and Mckay.

One Design = how to kill development and a last resort to interest people.

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kato said..

len024 said..



If the battle is between fins and foils racing together not being fair it seems like they need to create one design PWA class for fair racing. Fair racing is not achieved wether on fin or foil when everyone has different gear! They need to choose fin or foil and make everyone run the same gear identical but different manufactures can make it to not kill the industry. This should be like IQ Foil and Olympic sailing where you can buy a 49er from lots of different manufactures like Ovington and Mckay.

One Design = how to kill development and a last resort to interest people.

+1 for PWA because it will kill a big hunk of the financial side: sponsorship from manufacturers.
+2 because the PWA is the venue for advancing the technical side of the sport

One design class for the olympics (or your local Wed night race) satisfies a completely different objective: level, stable playing field for the masses.

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Paducah said..

kato said..

len024 said..



If the battle is between fins and foils racing together not being fair it seems like they need to create one design PWA class for fair racing. Fair racing is not achieved wether on fin or foil when everyone has different gear! They need to choose fin or foil and make everyone run the same gear identical but different manufactures can make it to not kill the industry. This should be like IQ Foil and Olympic sailing where you can buy a 49er from lots of different manufactures like Ovington and Mckay.

One Design = how to kill development and a last resort to interest people.

+1 for PWA because it will kill a big hunk of the financial side: sponsorship from manufacturers.
+2 because the PWA is the venue for advancing the technical side of the sport

One design class for the olympics (or your local Wed night race) satisfies a completely different objective: level, stable playing field for the masses.

Yep.

one design definitely has its place. It's the true measure of the sailors skill in a race, without the chances their equipment "helped". But there must also be classes open to development. It's how the sport moves forward.


this balance has been going on for decades (actually more than a century now) in sailing classes. There's always arguments between sailors that align with one way of thinking, and the other, over which is more important, or more relevant.

The 49er (whilst an Olympic class) originally didn't have a carbon mast, or a square top mainsail. They both came later in the picture. Carbon masts had already been around for some time, they were introduced to the class to counter the constant mast breakages that occurred with the original masts. The square top main was an addition that originated in development classes. Both were an improvement for the 49er. Both came from development classes. If everything was one design since day dot, neither of these improvements would've existed.


PWA is windsurfings development class. It's where and why all the latest developments in gear advancement come to fruition, and then get tested. If we turn everything one design, we don't move forward.

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PhilUK said..
Michele Becker's video was a good watch. It also highlights the danger of the foil, although Bordes managed to stab himself on the beach on his own fin.

Tragically, even surfboard fins can be lethal: www.npr.org/2023/07/12/1187177483/mikala-jones-hawaii-surfer-known-for-filming-inside-waves-dies-in-surfing-accide

"Mikala Jones, a Hawaii surfer known for shooting awe-inspiring photos and videos from the inside of massive, curling waves, has died after a surfing accident in Indonesia. He was 44. Jones had gone out into the ocean Sunday morning during a trip to the Mentawai Islands off the western coast of Sumatra when his surfboard fin cut his femoral artery, said his father, dentist Dr. John Jones. The femoral artery is a large blood vessel in the thigh that delivers blood to lower limbs."

For 99% of us, having a razor edge foil/fin isn't of any benefit. Dull the things a touch for your own sake.

Edit: He was famous for his POV shots including this one

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len024 said..

Karbonko said..
Why is it relevant if the IQ foil gear is obsolete or not? All of the competitors are on the same gear, meaning the playing field is level and the only thing that matters is the rider. That is the point of olympic/one design clases. Which in turn also favors the weekend riders, as they only need one set of equipment. One board, foil and sail, and need to master it. No constant upgrading of equipment. It doesnt matter that newer equipment can go a few knots faster if everyone needs to have the same equipment.

Also from speking to people involved in the olympic circle, the IQ foil class is becoming so popular as it is one of the most afordable high performance clases curently in the olympic program. There is literaly no need for the IQ foil to go faster than equipment permits, and that is great for the sport owerall.

The most sailed windsurfing class at the moment is the Windsurfer LT, as well as being the most sold production board at the moment. Why is that? Beacause its such a high performance board? Nope, not even close. Its cause the entry level is low enough for anyone to enter and afordable. Dont underestimate the competition though. There are excelent sailors at the top of Windsurfer LT races, meaning it is very competitive . With 400+ competitors at last years worlds, i think the numbers speak for themselves.

On the other Hand the PWA needs the foil, as there is where most of the current competitive windsurf is focused (IQ foil). They can also bring in venues that vere previously a no go beacause of prevailing wind conditions. That means more local talent can attend races. Most of the local fast guys cannot afford to go to Tenerife to train with the fin in proper conditions, but they can probably foil every day on their local spot. Meaning the foil is again the winner.

Time will tell where most of the competitions will be heading as they will know best which event they will continue to focus on depending on the competitors interested in them. In my opinion, it is going to be the Foil with a few niche fin events in windy places.

If the battle is between fins and foils racing together not being fair it seems like they need to create one design PWA class for fair racing. Fair racing is not achieved wether on fin or foil when everyone has different gear! They need to choose fin or foil and make everyone run the same gear identical but different manufactures can make it to not kill the industry. This should be like IQ Foil and Olympic sailing where you can buy a 49er from lots of different manufactures like Ovington and Mckay.

No they dont, its equal opportunity. ie everyone has the option to choose either fin or foil to race the course. If one person is not as good at using the foil as others then they cant just throw their toys out of the pram and say its not fair. This only becomes a topic when people who hate foils and prefer fins get upset because fins are losing. When the fins win you dont hear them say it should be changed.

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Maddlad


No they dont, its equal opportunity. ie everyone has the option to choose either fin or foil to race the course. If one person is not as good at using the foil as others then they cant just throw their toys out of the pram and say it's that's not fair. This only becomes a topic when people who hate foils and prefer fins get upset because fins are losing. When the fins win you dont hear them say it should be changed.

And that's why I enjoyed the racing. It was more of an equipment choice . Fin/foil , Sail size, board size. No different to one design stuff that suits a body size . Then throw in skill level on each. It think the biggest issue was what they had registered before the event. The foils will probably prove quicker on a short slalom course with lots of jibes but maybe the course layout might change and the foils will be playing catch up

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kato said..

Maddlad


No they dont, its equal opportunity. ie everyone has the option to choose either fin or foil to race the course. If one person is not as good at using the foil as others then they cant just throw their toys out of the pram and say it's that's not fair. This only becomes a topic when people who hate foils and prefer fins get upset because fins are losing. When the fins win you dont hear them say it should be changed.

And that's why I enjoyed the racing. It was more of an equipment choice . Fin/foil , Sail size, board size. No different to one design stuff that suits a body size . Then throw in skill level on each. It think the biggest issue was what they had registered before the event. The foils will probably prove quicker on a short slalom course with lots of jibes but maybe the course layout might change and the foils will be playing catch up

Foil is more interesting anyway

On related news: the GWA Wingfoil World Cup is happening in Gran Canaria. There are only 32 entrants in the men class, and 14 in the women, not that far from the dismal numbers of the PWA So maybe there is something about the Canary Island that discourages people to get there. [Or maybe it is because wing slalom races are ridiculously slow and boring]

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duzzi said..
On related news: the GWA Wingfoil World Cup is happening in Gran Canaria. There are only 32 entrants in the men class, and 14 in the women, not that far from the dismal numbers of the PWA So maybe there is something about the Canary Island that discourages people to get there. [Or maybe it is because wing slalom races are ridiculously slow and boring]

omigood! Wingfoiling is dying. /s

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Paducah typo'ed ...

omigood

FML, did I really misspell that?

Back to topic at hand - good video about the back and forth between fin and foil. Makes me wonder if there was a min size foil wing that would equalize the racing in the 25+kt range akin to some restrictions (e.g. restrictor plates) in auto racing to level the playing field?

Interesting idea, but then the narration always turns to that. (Restrictor plate, pop off valve etc.) I think the current format is best.

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Paducah said..
www.riwmag.com/pwa-slalom-a-pozo-al-confine-tra-pinna-e-foil/ English version at the bottom

Different opinions and many of us here will find something to agree with.

thanks for sharing -- and I'll try to resist the temptation of picking opinions that align with mine :)

but what it does show is that (unsurprisingly) there is a broad range of opinions (even just between those interviewed) and racers don't all agree, meaning that you'll never get to a format that everyone is 100 pct happy with.

this also hints to formats that leave as much choice to racers as possible given the circumstances of the day as the ones that are most likely to get the broadest support, given the nature of the PWA. in that sense, the current format may not be too far off the best possible one, while incremental changes to perfect the current format might still be possible.

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bel29 said..

Paducah said..
www.riwmag.com/pwa-slalom-a-pozo-al-confine-tra-pinna-e-foil/ English version at the bottom

Different opinions and many of us here will find something to agree with.

thanks for sharing -- and I'll try to resist the temptation of picking opinions that align with mine :)

but what it does show is that (unsurprisingly) there is a broad range of opinions (even just between those interviewed) and racers don't all agree, meaning that you'll never get to a format that everyone is 100 pct happy with.

this also hints to formats that leave as much choice to racers as possible given the circumstances of the day as the ones that are most likely to get the broadest support, given the nature of the PWA. in that sense, the current format may not be too far off the best possible one, while incremental changes to perfect the current format might still be possible.

again .. the only reason fin is still somewhat competitive in the women division is because out of 8 entrants a few are devoted to fin, and women are still less skilled than men on foil. Fin in the women division still lost at Gran Canaria. And in the men division fin has lost to foil in every single race since 2019. Why on earth athletes should carry along clearly obsolete equipment?

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duzzi said..
On related news: the GWA Wingfoil World Cup is happening in Gran Canaria. There are only 32 entrants in the men class, and 14 in the women, not that far from the dismal numbers of the PWA So maybe there is something about the Canary Island that discourages people to get there. [Or maybe it is because wing slalom races are ridiculously slow and boring]

True that the numbers are similar, and that wing slalom races are not very interesting (somewhat similar to windfoil slalom without fins and crashes). But there are a few large differences:
- Wing competitions are still young, and growing. Previous competitions had similar or fewer entries, even at spots that were easy to drive to by the mostly European competitors.
- Competitors are a lot younger. From the pictures at the GWA web site, you'd think it's mostly kids competing. The guys currently at the top of the rankings are 25-27 years old, but you can find 16 and 17 year guys and gals on #2 spots, and 15-year olds in the top 10.
- They have a "feeder" system, with national events, qualifying events, and a youth word cup.

The highest jumps in the big air competition were very similar to the highest jumps by the PWA pros, with averages probably being a bit higher. At the rate some of these kids are learning new tricks, it will be very interesting to see what they are doing in a few years.

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duzzi said..
again .. the only reason fin is still somewhat competitive in the women division is because out of 8 entrants a few are devoted to fin, and women are still less skilled than men on foil. Fin in the women division still lost at Gran Canaria. And in the men division fin has lost to foil in every single race since 2019. Why on earth athletes should carry along clearly obsolete equipment?

I presume you mean event wins, not race wins, as I think Pozo saw the most fin race wins over the foil in both the men and women's fleet in a while. So clearly not obsolete.

On the whole, though, given where things are in the sport, I don't believe there is a realistic prospect of running separate PWA tours on fin and foil (there may be at other levels, and in particular parts of the world). And while fin (or foil) may not be fully competitive in all circumstances and on all spots, I think everyone recognizes that mixing them up has added a level of excitement to PWA racing that we had lost over the years. Even those racing on the fin (each for their own reasons) like SarahQ recognized that battling it out on fin against the foils was not only super exciting but also made her race better.

That said, some tinkering could be considered (eg, as I suggested previously, adding a separate fin ranking).

part 2 of riwmag.com interviews: www.riwmag.com/pwa-slalom-a-pozo-al-confine-tra-pinna-e-foil-ii/?lang=en

Alabau, Becker, Iachinno

Seems like the breakeven for fin/foil is around 30 kts. Becker said he was foiling on a 4.8 (vs 8.4 at Garda).

Select to expand quote

bel29 said..

duzzi said..
again .. the only reason fin is still somewhat competitive in the women division is because out of 8 entrants a few are devoted to fin, and women are still less skilled than men on foil. Fin in the women division still lost at Gran Canaria. And in the men division fin has lost to foil in every single race since 2019. Why on earth athletes should carry along clearly obsolete equipment?

I presume you mean event wins, not race wins, as I think Pozo saw the most fin race wins over the foil in both the men and women's fleet in a while. So clearly not obsolete.

Obsolete is a loaded word, but the verdict is in: fin are only competitive when the wind is gusting above 30 knots. Conditions you pretty much can only find at Pozo in a big day. Sub 30 knots fins simply never win.