Foil vs fin aside, here's scary question: How short or complex would a course have to be for a WINGER to be competitive with a windfoil? Over distance, with current technology, a windfoil would win, but wingers are able to pick lines much more radical than we can.

As far as aligning the jibe with the swell (in response to PhilUK), it's absolutely essential in chop that size, but you don't slow down to do it. Rather you start setting up the swell 200 meters out, by picking a more upwind or direct line.

All interesting thoughts -- pointing also to more possibilities to keep things interesting/inclusive than what has currently been tried/done at the PWA.

Perhaps this is also partly a reflection of the PWA's governing structure, i.e. the racers themselves and the (big) brands, neither of whom are naturally prone to outside the box thinking (but rather tend to protect vested interests).

While you can (dis)agree with their effectiveness, it seems to me that the iQ class has been much more willing to experiment with different racing formats, within the broad spectrum of CR or SL depending on conditions. PWA should be able to do this too, within the broad spectrum of allowing racers to chose the type of gear that they think is most suited for them to get around the course most quickly, and (of course!) in the most spectacular fashion.

And just to drive home my earlier point on foils being a barrier to access: it doesn't just play out at pro level, but affects the whole "supply line" of regional/national racers aspiring to progress to pro level. How many of them (think especially those from smaller/less affluent countries) are capable of continuing to invest in high performance gear across both fin and foil...?

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Awalkspoiled said..
Foil vs fin aside, here's scary question: How short or complex would a course have to be for a WINGER to be competitive with a windfoil? Over distance, with current technology, a windfoil would win, but wingers are able to pick lines much more radical than we can.

Sure ... why not just have a nice open class: kite, windsurf, wind foil, kite foil, and wings. Stand up paddle too, now that I think about it. Stand up paddle will win in winds under 5 knots and you will never have a cancelled event

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duzzi said..

Awalkspoiled said..
Foil vs fin aside, here's scary question: How short or complex would a course have to be for a WINGER to be competitive with a windfoil? Over distance, with current technology, a windfoil would win, but wingers are able to pick lines much more radical than we can.

Sure ... why not just have a nice open class: kite, windsurf, wind foil, kite foil, and wings. Stand up paddle too, now that I think about it. Stand up paddle will win in winds under 5 knots and you will never have a cancelled event

The guy asks a fair question and your response could be better, imho. Is it a touch off-topic? Yes, but that's the organic nature of conversation between internet friends and I'm good with that both as a visitor here and an admin elsewhere. You wouldn't answer a child's question is the above manner and no reason to respond to a peer the same way. All he was asking is if there are conditions where a wingfoil might have a comparative advantage. He never proposed that they formally race together as you suggest.

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Paducah said..

duzzi said..

Awalkspoiled said..
Foil vs fin aside, here's scary question: How short or complex would a course have to be for a WINGER to be competitive with a windfoil? Over distance, with current technology, a windfoil would win, but wingers are able to pick lines much more radical than we can.

Sure ... why not just have a nice open class: kite, windsurf, wind foil, kite foil, and wings. Stand up paddle too, now that I think about it. Stand up paddle will win in winds under 5 knots and you will never have a cancelled event

... he was asking is if there are conditions where a wingfoil might have a comparative advantage. He never proposed that they formally race together as you suggest.

... of course he did, he asked in what conditions the wing will have an advantage with respect to the foil on a race course. But to answer: a double figure eight over, say, one hundred yards would do Anything longer and they would be wiped out by the speed differential. That, the speed differential, is rather massive.

PS seabreeze needs better emoji-s

Doesn't seem like you need two sets of equipment
when's the last time you saw Nico Goyard on a fin?

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phoilingphil said..
Doesn't seem like you need two sets of equipment
when's the last time you saw Nico Goyard on a fin?

There you go - that's the REALLY sad part. I'm pretty sure NG would have just owned this event if he weren't busy elsewhere trying to refine his familiarity with what is already no longer fully competitive gear so that he could make the Olympic squad. Still, that's the nature of Olympic competition and the IQ is closer to being a good thing for the growth of the sport than the Lechner, IMCO or RS:X ever were.
im not sure, by the way, that a tight figure-8 would give wingers an edge, although that was my first though too, Duzzi. Look at the indoor events held in flooded hockey rinks which Naish and friends used to pump their way around on little finned boards.

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Awalkspoiled said..

phoilingphil said..
Doesn't seem like you need two sets of equipment
when's the last time you saw Nico Goyard on a fin?

There you go - that's the REALLY sad part. I'm pretty sure NG would have just owned this event if he weren't busy elsewhere trying to refine his familiarity with what is already no longer fully competitive gear so that he could make the Olympic squad. Still, that's the nature of Olympic competition and the IQ is closer to being a good thing for the growth of the sport than the Lechner, IMCO or RS:X ever were.
im not sure, by the way, that a tight figure-8 would give wingers an edge, although that was my first though too, Duzzi. Look at the indoor events held in flooded hockey rinks which Naish and friends used to pump their way around on little finned boards.

Goyard got beaten on both slalom events they had last year. 9th in Sylt, 2nd in Japan. He was in a league of his own when foiling hit the scene as he was involved in the development of the foils, but then others caught up and overtook him. He didnt make the cut at the IQ-Foil World Championships in Brest last year. He lost his mojo. But at the Euros this year, he was 4th. He was 4th before the winner takes all medal race. My tip for the Olympics is Seb Kordel, he was leading the event comfortably until the medal race, where the sailor in 10th before the medal race took the title.

www.pwaworldtour.com/index.php?id=2280
www.pwaworldtour.com/index.php?id=38&tx_pwaevent_pi1%5BshowUid%5D=332&cHash=3dba48be016aafe08e7080c96be9c9e6
www.pwaworldtour.com/index.php?id=38&tx_pwaevent_pi1%5BshowUid%5D=334&cHash=402bd06b998a60bf33c79052c6c6aca0

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Awalkspoiled said..
As far as aligning the jibe with the swell (in response to PhilUK), it's absolutely essential in chop that size, but you don't slow down to do it. Rather you start setting up the swell 200 meters out, by picking a more upwind or direct line.

But you would still be leaving a gap if you headed upwind to gybe on a swell. It was quite choppy in Pozo, not smooth swell lines.
People on the internet saying the pros are doing it all wrong, using the wrong shaped boards

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Maddlad said..
Point is everyone has the option of running either foil or fin, just like when F1 drivers have the choice of using a soft or harder tyre compound at the start of a race. ie. Each has their pros and cons. To see them use foils in that wind and in that sea state was incredible.

I'd suggest the real point is you will only see it once. You won't ever see that sort of battle in that wind range again... If you look at the equipment list, many of the fin sailors had the wrong gear including Mateo Ilachino (his words), so much for the new extended range sails...

Looking long term this battle is neither good for either discipline, e.g. I can't see PWA Slalom surviving without classic fin slalom, or without the foil for that matter.

I understand that the riders will decide in Sylt, what changes if any might happen.

Philosophical questions:
1.Imagine if wingfoil improves a lot to be as competitive as windfoil in slalom, would PWA change the rules to allow wing equipment with fins and windfoil? PWA would become the professional defiWInd in short slalom distance around the world.

2.Imagine if freestyle foil is increasing, would PWA introduce the discipline? would the discipline be splitted in two or even merged with the wings? To me, they would have to split unfortunately .. it would be unfair to get judged and get more points on specific tricks that other support can't do.

History showed us that the more you divide discipline the less riders you get. The days (80/90s) where same pro riders were able to participate in PWA events in wave, freestyle and slalom were already over and the foil pushed the split further now, riders cannot do all.

Only one discipline can bring riders together .. slalom .. the fastest one wins.

The PWA will adjust to keep the money flowing.

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racerX said..

Maddlad said..
Point is everyone has the option of running either foil or fin, just like when F1 drivers have the choice of using a soft or harder tyre compound at the start of a race. ie. Each has their pros and cons. To see them use foils in that wind and in that sea state was incredible.

I'd suggest the real point is you will only see it once. You won't ever see that sort of battle in that wind range again... If you look at the equipment list, many of the fin sailors had the wrong gear including Mateo Ilachino (his words), so much for the new extended range sails...

Looking long term this battle is neither good for either discipline, e.g. I can't see PWA Slalom surviving without classic fin slalom, or without the foil for that matter.

I understand that the riders will decide in Sylt, what changes if any might happen.

For 2024 PWA is supposed to switch to:

4 Sails
2 Boards (any registered slalom boards, foil or fin, up to 91cm for men and 100.5cm for women)
1 Foil Set (3 front, 2 rear wings)

See www.windsurfjournal.com/article,news,new-on-the-pwa-tour-in-2024,9423,en

But PWA would make itself a big favor if it cut the current bonanza even more. 6 sails (what?) and 3 boards (excuse me?). Forget it!
IQ-foil can do 1 board 1 sail, woman up! just allow:

3 Sails
1 Board (any registered slalom board, up to 91cm)
1 Foil Set (3 front, 2 rear wings)

Want to do something that promotes innovation? Allow sail size reduction, and let's see if sail makers can com up with a better version of the venerable Reynolds' Multi-sails.

That article is out of date, they made that announcement, but realised soon after it would not work. At least if they wanted it not be foil only tour

Stepping back a bit, fin didn't do so badly, with several guys having their best result ever (Jimmy) or in a while (Taty; and also Jordy; even though he mixed it up with foil, he finished higher than in Garda when everyone was on foil, and mostly thanks to his fin races).
I don't disagree that there is room to further limit the gear, but a single board is not realistic (unless the objective is to kill the fin altogether, as everyone will the. register a foil board). Two boards/4 sails (remember the old "formula 42" format.) might not be out of the question though.

But much also depends on the racing venues (reasonably predictable at the start of the season, although not entirely) and the conditions on the day (unpredictable). If we had 3 days of "real Pozo" the fin specialists on small board/sail would have risen (more) to the top; and some undoubtedly made travel decisions based on what they were likely to get, not necessarily what they did get, so impossible to say what the outcome would have been if everyone had all the gear they registered at the start of the season).
To keep the fin alive at PWA level (a must, I think, for the viability of the sport over the medium term) it is therefore paramount that: 1/ the tour has a good balance of venues to give as many chances as possible to both fin & foil, 2/ gear is limited as much as possible (but not excessively) so that those who want to do both can do so competitively, and 3/ that consideration be given to a separate ranking in addition to the overall, to increase attractiveness for those who can or want to do only one.

I dont think you can limit the amount of kit too much. Lake Garda to Sotovento (or a windy Sylt if it happens) is a very wide range of conditions. You want all sailors to be on kit matching the conditions, otherwise those who happen to have the best match will walk it, and probably lose out at a different venue.

The fins in PWA are dead. I don't think a fin has won an event since the foils first event in Israel just before covid. The conditions required for fins to be competitive are extremely rare, even for high wind venues. I can't see the PWA going backwards, The only continued fin development will occur in GPS sailing. Manufurers will continue to rationalise their slalom board and sail ranges.

They will both go down together....

The wingers already get the first mention in the fuetre world cup. Their tour is already much bigger, hopefully the pwa and the riders don't have their heads in the sand.

I Wonder what the prize money is for the GWA slalom winner...

rene-egli.com/windsurfing/events/world-cup-2023

Bel29 makes an excellent point: "To keep the fin alive at PWA level (a must, I think, for the viability of the sport over the medium term"). This is reminiscent of the period in the mid '80s when shortboard sailing took over the skilled end of the sport, and entry-level sailors weren't getting the kind of support and feedback which would keep the sport growing. Now, hardly anyone is going to START windsurfing on a foil. If they start out on a foil it's going to be with a wing, with a much quicker learning curve. People who start windsurfing are going to start with a fin, at least for a while, and that end of the sport needs encouragement.

At the same time, if there's too strict a limit on equipment it might force manufacturers to produce very versatile gear - a 6.5 which will work for light air on a foil and in 25-30 on a fin. Good for the average sailor but will dull the edge of innovation at the highest-performing levels. The very best possible foiling sail won't be the very best finning sail and vice-versa.

I don't have a suggestion or solution, and I'm honestly not sure there's really a problem. Foiling is progressing so fast that we don't know where it's headed. I certainly never thought anyone would be using a 350sqcm wing for anything, or a 900 for light air, or dock-starting those high-aspect giants either. The Pozo event is an interesting test of where we are right now, but we won't still be there in two years.

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racerX said..
They will both go down together....

The wingers already get the first mention in the fuetre world cup. Their tour is already much bigger, hopefully the pwa and the riders don't have their heads in the sand.

I Wonder what the prize money is for the GWA slalom winner...

rene-egli.com/windsurfing/events/world-cup-2023

There were 422 entrants in the European Youth IQ Foil this year. And 203 entrants at the European IQ Foil (114 men and 89 Women.) Registration for the Worlds is already north of 200. One board - One sail.

For the PWA there were 61 entrants at the Lake Garda (50 men and 11 women), and 37 (28 men and 9 women) at Gran Canaria. A deluge of equipment to carry along: three boards - six sails.

There is surely more than one reason why PWA is sinking, but the format is clearly not helping.

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duzzi said..

racerX said..
They will both go down together....

The wingers already get the first mention in the fuetre world cup. Their tour is already much bigger, hopefully the pwa and the riders don't have their heads in the sand.

I Wonder what the prize money is for the GWA slalom winner...

rene-egli.com/windsurfing/events/world-cup-2023

There were 422 entrants in the European Youth IQ Foil this year. And 203 entrants at the European IQ Foil (114 men and 89 Women.) Registration for the Worlds is already north of 200. One board - One sail.

For the PWA there were 61 entrants at the Lake Garda (50 men and 11 women), and 37 (28 men and 9 women) at Gran Canaria. A deluge of equipment to carry along: three boards - six sails.

There is surely more than one reason why PWA is sinking, but the format is clearly not helping.

IQ Foil is also obsolete technology, which is inevitable in one design yacht racing. I realize that at the youth and Olympic levels one design works reasonably well. However, given the huge profile of the Olympics it is unfortunate that it cannot be a proving ground for technology development. It is the PWA that is at the leading edge of technology but the field is too small and the money too little to have the kind of impact that could happen on the Olympic side.

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NS320 said..

duzzi said..

racerX said..
They will both go down together....

The wingers already get the first mention in the fuetre world cup. Their tour is already much bigger, hopefully the pwa and the riders don't have their heads in the sand.

I Wonder what the prize money is for the GWA slalom winner...

rene-egli.com/windsurfing/events/world-cup-2023

There were 422 entrants in the European Youth IQ Foil this year. And 203 entrants at the European IQ Foil (114 men and 89 Women.) Registration for the Worlds is already north of 200. One board - One sail.

For the PWA there were 61 entrants at the Lake Garda (50 men and 11 women), and 37 (28 men and 9 women) at Gran Canaria. A deluge of equipment to carry along: three boards - six sails.

There is surely more than one reason why PWA is sinking, but the format is clearly not helping.

IQ Foil is also obsolete technology, which is inevitable in one design yacht racing. I realize that at the youth and Olympic levels one design works reasonably well. However, given the huge profile of the Olympics it is unfortunate that it cannot be a proving ground for technology development. It is the PWA that is at the leading edge of technology but the field is too small and the money too little to have the kind of impact that could happen on the Olympic side.

Does anybody know or have info about the IQ class evolution? Do we have to wait for 3 or 4 Olympic games for any evolution in the equipment .. even for minor improvement? The RS:X class has managed to stay for 15 years even if it was totally obsolete.

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Lezardo said..

NS320 said..

duzzi said..

racerX said..
They will both go down together....

The wingers already get the first mention in the fuetre world cup. Their tour is already much bigger, hopefully the pwa and the riders don't have their heads in the sand.

I Wonder what the prize money is for the GWA slalom winner...

rene-egli.com/windsurfing/events/world-cup-2023

There were 422 entrants in the European Youth IQ Foil this year. And 203 entrants at the European IQ Foil (114 men and 89 Women.) Registration for the Worlds is already north of 200. One board - One sail.

For the PWA there were 61 entrants at the Lake Garda (50 men and 11 women), and 37 (28 men and 9 women) at Gran Canaria. A deluge of equipment to carry along: three boards - six sails.

There is surely more than one reason why PWA is sinking, but the format is clearly not helping.

IQ Foil is also obsolete technology, which is inevitable in one design yacht racing. I realize that at the youth and Olympic levels one design works reasonably well. However, given the huge profile of the Olympics it is unfortunate that it cannot be a proving ground for technology development. It is the PWA that is at the leading edge of technology but the field is too small and the money too little to have the kind of impact that could happen on the Olympic side.

Does anybody know or have info about the IQ class evolution? Do we have to wait for 3 or 4 Olympic games for any evolution in the equipment .. even for minor improvement? The RS:X class has managed to stay for 15 years even if it was totally obsolete.

I know one of the members of the international sailing committee that chose the IQ Foil. From talking to him it sounds like decisions on anything take years. Once a class is in it tends to stay for a long time. Also recall that at one point windsurfing was out of the Olympics. It took some heavy duty lobbying to get windfoiling accepted.

Thank you for the IQFoil information ...

Fins & Foils: another interesting point to consider ... mentioned By Jimmy Thieme in an interview (see translation below), it's the selection of the discipline depending on the wind, When it's windy, they prioritize wave and freestyle rounds ... so fins will always have a disadvantage in such lighter conditions in slalom!!

Jimmy: "The wind was a bit light at the start of the day, so the foils had quite an advantage. I was on fin, as was Taty Frans in particular, in 6.8 - 7m with the medium boards. In the last three races, the wind started to pick up and settled down nicely by the end of the day. The last heat was won by Jordy Vonk ahead of Matteo Iachino, both with fins. The level was getting a little tighter with the foils, so there was plenty of scope for some great racing!
The problem is that we often race on stages where there isn't much wind, like in Torbole or Sylt. As soon as there's a bit of air, they send the freestyle or the wave. If we continue in these conditions, the foils are bound to stay ahead. But when we get up to 25 knots, in more epic conditions like Pozo or Fuerte, things tighten up.
As long as there aren't more races like this, it's going to be complicated for the fins to get back into the game... But the fins still had every chance, as we saw with Jordy who won with quite a lead, in a wind that wasn't all that strong. Taty and I are in almost every race with fins, and it's a pain not to have the right conditions to express ourselves!
Even here in Pozo, they send us out in the lightest conditions, while the waveriders have almost completed their double eliminations. We could have waited for a while and race in stronger wind conditions, which would benefit the fins..."

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NS320 said..

duzzi said..

racerX said..
They will both go down together....

The wingers already get the first mention in the fuetre world cup. Their tour is already much bigger, hopefully the pwa and the riders don't have their heads in the sand.

I Wonder what the prize money is for the GWA slalom winner...

rene-egli.com/windsurfing/events/world-cup-2023

There were 422 entrants in the European Youth IQ Foil this year. And 203 entrants at the European IQ Foil (114 men and 89 Women.) Registration for the Worlds is already north of 200. One board - One sail.

For the PWA there were 61 entrants at the Lake Garda (50 men and 11 women), and 37 (28 men and 9 women) at Gran Canaria. A deluge of equipment to carry along: three boards - six sails.

There is surely more than one reason why PWA is sinking, but the format is clearly not helping.

IQ Foil is also obsolete technology, which is inevitable in one design yacht racing. I realize that at the youth and Olympic levels one design works reasonably well. However, given the huge profile of the Olympics it is unfortunate that it cannot be a proving ground for technology development. It is the PWA that is at the leading edge of technology but the field is too small and the money too little to have the kind of impact that could happen on the Olympic side.

Not to beat a dead horse (I did beat it a few more time than necessary already in this thread), but it is hard to see how forcing two sailing classes to sail together, and allowing one foil set with multiple wings, an unlimited number of fins, multiple masts and booms, and six sails is progress. To me is going backward.

There is just one place on earth, the Canary Islands, where fins might be occasionally competitive, if wind gusts to 30 knots, and they still just won one final, and lost the overall by a mile.

So be it! Just do foil! Open the door to professional sailing for those 422 Youths, instead of shutting it close by forcing them to get into a crazy professional format once they are done with the Olympics. PWA function will simply be to help develop the next iteration of IQ-foil and sails.

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NS320 said..

duzzi said..

racerX said..
They will both go down together....

The wingers already get the first mention in the fuetre world cup. Their tour is already much bigger, hopefully the pwa and the riders don't have their heads in the sand.

I Wonder what the prize money is for the GWA slalom winner...

rene-egli.com/windsurfing/events/world-cup-2023

There were 422 entrants in the European Youth IQ Foil this year. And 203 entrants at the European IQ Foil (114 men and 89 Women.) Registration for the Worlds is already north of 200. One board - One sail.

For the PWA there were 61 entrants at the Lake Garda (50 men and 11 women), and 37 (28 men and 9 women) at Gran Canaria. A deluge of equipment to carry along: three boards - six sails.

There is surely more than one reason why PWA is sinking, but the format is clearly not helping.

IQ Foil is also obsolete technology, which is inevitable in one design yacht racing. I realize that at the youth and Olympic levels one design works reasonably well. However, given the huge profile of the Olympics it is unfortunate that it cannot be a proving ground for technology development. It is the PWA that is at the leading edge of technology but the field is too small and the money too little to have the kind of impact that could happen on the Olympic side.

Define obsolete.

iq foil is course racing gear. Its not on the same design parameters as slalom foil. As much as slalom foil gear is much faster out of the traps, you wont beat some one on iq gear to a top mark, or around an upwind/downwind course on it.

yes olympic status does mean a very slow development (if any) and whilst other manufacturers are free to do development on course racing foil gear they might offer, course racing gear is going to very limited in development as it is.

right now the iq foil is still very competitive at what its drsigned for. Give it a few more years, maybe it'll be obsolete, but not right now its not.

If I got it correctly it looked like in the European foil finals the event organizer decided if races would be fin or foil. Is that correct?



For PWA I still like the idea of combined races up until the finals then do a fin final and a foil final worth equal points.

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Subsonic said..

NS320 said..

duzzi said..

racerX said..
They will both go down together....

The wingers already get the first mention in the fuetre world cup. Their tour is already much bigger, hopefully the pwa and the riders don't have their heads in the sand.

I Wonder what the prize money is for the GWA slalom winner...

rene-egli.com/windsurfing/events/world-cup-2023

There were 422 entrants in the European Youth IQ Foil this year. And 203 entrants at the European IQ Foil (114 men and 89 Women.) Registration for the Worlds is already north of 200. One board - One sail.

For the PWA there were 61 entrants at the Lake Garda (50 men and 11 women), and 37 (28 men and 9 women) at Gran Canaria. A deluge of equipment to carry along: three boards - six sails.

There is surely more than one reason why PWA is sinking, but the format is clearly not helping.

IQ Foil is also obsolete technology, which is inevitable in one design yacht racing. I realize that at the youth and Olympic levels one design works reasonably well. However, given the huge profile of the Olympics it is unfortunate that it cannot be a proving ground for technology development. It is the PWA that is at the leading edge of technology but the field is too small and the money too little to have the kind of impact that could happen on the Olympic side.

Define obsolete.

iq foil is course racing gear. Its not on the same design parameters as slalom foil. As much as slalom foil gear is much faster out of the traps, you wont beat some one on iq gear to a top mark, or around an upwind/downwind course on it.

yes olympic status does mean a very slow development (if any) and whilst other manufacturers are free to do development on course racing foil gear they might offer, course racing gear is going to very limited in development as it is.

right now the iq foil is still very competitive at what its drsigned for. Give it a few more years, maybe it'll be obsolete, but not right now its not.

Open question on that:

The newer SLR 880 with mk ii higher aspect tail may outperform the iqfoil, but does anyone have experience with this in course racing? Much more slippery looking. Combine it with a 100cm wide board and ???

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aeroegnr said..
Open question on that:

The newer SLR 880 with mk ii higher aspect tail may outperform the iqfoil, but does anyone have experience with this in course racing? Much more slippery looking. Combine it with a 100cm wide board and ???

Yeah, I am really curious to see the iQFoil gear v any new course foil/board/sail. At a highly competitive level there might be some difference but I am not sure if the average weekend warrior could extract more out of something newer.

www.riwmag.com/pwa-slalom-a-pozo-al-confine-tra-pinna-e-foil/ English version at the bottom

"RIWmag interviewed some of the best competitors in both the women's and men's fleet:
Marion Mortefon (BETWEEN | Fanatic / Duotone)
Sarah-Quita Offringa (ARU | Starboard / NeilPryde / Maui Ultra Fins)
Maciek Rutkowski (POL | FMX Racing / Challenger Sails)
Pierre Mortefon (BETWEEN | Fanatic / Duotone / Chopper Fins / Phantom Foils)"

Different opinions and many of us here will find something to agree with. Big thing I got was that it was a bit last minute at a venue many, if not most, had never raced before so before we get all doom and gloom about the attendance something to consider.