Days 4-30 were chock full of frustrating 2-23 mph days, making it hard and...frustrating.
The past month has been somewhat rewarding, days 25-40.

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excav8ter said..
Can anyone reccomend a smaller sail, in the 4.3-5.2 range that would be good for wind foiling? I am looking to add another sail to my Flyer 6.0, 7.0 and my Ezzy Cheetah 8.0. I'd like to get something with out spending $600+ again.

Or is my 6.0 going to be ok for 20-25 mph?

I'm 225 and 6'4", riding a Fanatic Falcon LW, soon to be a SS Levitator 160 with the i84 front wing.

Most small freeride/freestyle/wave sails work just fine as the wind comes up. At your size, a 6.0 should work okay. I'm a third smaller and can easily handle a wave 5.4 or a freerace 6.7 in those conditions. The characteristics of foil sail matter a whole lot more under 20 than above. By the time you are in the mid 20s, you just need some cloth to get you moving and then not become too unruly in the gusts. Not that foil specific sails in smaller sizes aren't nice but you'll see happy people on all sorts of smaller sails.

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Paducah said..

excav8ter said..
Can anyone reccomend a smaller sail, in the 4.3-5.2 range that would be good for wind foiling? I am looking to add another sail to my Flyer 6.0, 7.0 and my Ezzy Cheetah 8.0. I'd like to get something with out spending $600+ again.

Or is my 6.0 going to be ok for 20-25 mph?

I'm 225 and 6'4", riding a Fanatic Falcon LW, soon to be a SS Levitator 160 with the i84 front wing.

Most small freeride/freestyle/wave sails work just fine as the wind comes up. At your size, a 6.0 should work okay. I'm a third smaller and can easily handle a wave 5.4 or a freerace 6.7 in those conditions. The characteristics of foil sail matter a whole lot more under 20 than above. By the time you are in the mid 20s, you just need some cloth to get you moving and then not become too unruly in the gusts. Not that foil specific sails in smaller sizes aren't nice but you'll see happy people on all sorts of smaller sails.

I can get a 7.0, 7.6 and 8.2 Naish 2 cam sails one has never been used and the other 2 have been used roughly 4 times each. I can get all three for $450.00

I also just found out the same guy has an 8.8 Naish 3 cam sail I can buy for $150. Never seen water.

I don't need the 7.0 or 7.6, but I wonder if the 8.2 would be a better sail than my Ezzy Cheetah 8.0....

Thoughts?

***************Days 4-30 were chock full of frustrating 2-23 mph days, making it hard and...frustrating.
The past month has been somewhat rewarding, days 25-40.*******************

Dlee
Are you ok my friend?

What are you talking about?

Early summer, with it's gustier strong wind conditions, can be tough for a beginner foiler to find LIGHT, STEADY breezes.
L, S breezes are everywhere now in Sept

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excav8ter said..

Paducah said..

excav8ter said..
Can anyone reccomend a smaller sail, in the 4.3-5.2 range that would be good for wind foiling? I am looking to add another sail to my Flyer 6.0, 7.0 and my Ezzy Cheetah 8.0. I'd like to get something with out spending $600+ again.

Or is my 6.0 going to be ok for 20-25 mph?

I'm 225 and 6'4", riding a Fanatic Falcon LW, soon to be a SS Levitator 160 with the i84 front wing.

Most small freeride/freestyle/wave sails work just fine as the wind comes up. At your size, a 6.0 should work okay. I'm a third smaller and can easily handle a wave 5.4 or a freerace 6.7 in those conditions. The characteristics of foil sail matter a whole lot more under 20 than above. By the time you are in the mid 20s, you just need some cloth to get you moving and then not become too unruly in the gusts. Not that foil specific sails in smaller sizes aren't nice but you'll see happy people on all sorts of smaller sails.

I can get a 7.0, 7.6 and 8.2 Naish 2 cam sails one has never been used and the other 2 have been used roughly 4 times each. I can get all three for $450.00

I also just found out the same guy has an 8.8 Naish 3 cam sail I can buy for $150. Never seen water.

I don't need the 7.0 or 7.6, but I wonder if the 8.2 would be a better sail than my Ezzy Cheetah 8.0....

Thoughts?

Will your mast work with those sails? A lot of Naish sails are designed for a real hard top. Are you in Florida? One of your posts mentions the Manatee River which is roughly where I was today (Palma Sola). Perhaps we can team up on that quiver!

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Awalkspoiled said..

excav8ter said..

Paducah said..

excav8ter said..
Can anyone reccomend a smaller sail, in the 4.3-5.2 range that would be good for wind foiling? I am looking to add another sail to my Flyer 6.0, 7.0 and my Ezzy Cheetah 8.0. I'd like to get something with out spending $600+ again.

Or is my 6.0 going to be ok for 20-25 mph?

I'm 225 and 6'4", riding a Fanatic Falcon LW, soon to be a SS Levitator 160 with the i84 front wing.

Most small freeride/freestyle/wave sails work just fine as the wind comes up. At your size, a 6.0 should work okay. I'm a third smaller and can easily handle a wave 5.4 or a freerace 6.7 in those conditions. The characteristics of foil sail matter a whole lot more under 20 than above. By the time you are in the mid 20s, you just need some cloth to get you moving and then not become too unruly in the gusts. Not that foil specific sails in smaller sizes aren't nice but you'll see happy people on all sorts of smaller sails.

I can get a 7.0, 7.6 and 8.2 Naish 2 cam sails one has never been used and the other 2 have been used roughly 4 times each. I can get all three for $450.00

I also just found out the same guy has an 8.8 Naish 3 cam sail I can buy for $150. Never seen water.

I don't need the 7.0 or 7.6, but I wonder if the 8.2 would be a better sail than my Ezzy Cheetah 8.0....

Thoughts?

Will your mast work with those sails? A lot of Naish sails are designed for a real hard top. Are you in Florida? One of your posts mentions the Manatee River which is roughly where I was today (Palma Sola). Perhaps we can team up on that quiver!

I am located in Holland Michigan. Up until last year, I vacationed on Anna Marie Island. I used spend a couple of weeks doing whatever downwind paddling I could do.

I'll buy a 490 SDM mast if I have too. I just don't want to spend money on the 8.8 Naish if it won't be a good foiling sail.

Just about EVERY sail is good for windfoiling....for someone in some conditions. NO sail is perfect for everyone.
Racers often use full blown slalom sails while some free riders choose one batten beginners sails.

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LeeD said..
Just about EVERY sail is good for windfoiling....for someone in some conditions. NO sail is perfect for everyone.
Racers often use full blown slalom sails while some free riders choose one batten beginners sails.

So for a beginner wind foiler...

What would be recommended instead of a foil specific sail? I'm thinking of a 5.0 and possibly something around 9.0. Or is 9.0 unrealistic in light wind due to their current weight?

I am trying not to completely break the bank. That's why I am hoping for solid advice on some used sails.

There is no ONE set of rules for anyone, which applies to beginners thru sponsored pros.
Any sail that get's you planing and doesn't overpower you is good.
Now, what is "doesn't overpower mean?
Sure, you can find examples of sails that don't work, but you'd have to really try.
At steady 14 mph wind, almost anything and everyone can foil.

In the 5 meter range, I've used Zetas, Blades, Converts, Ezzy Waves, Revos, Superfreaks, Atlas, Raves, Hydra, and several more, and wind quality is the most important factor.

I agree. Wind quality is key. Steady at 15-18 mph is ideal, and found almost nowhere (except Baja). Read the 05.2 issue of Windsurfing Now to see a discussion about cammed versus camless sails for windfoiling. I still use both and have not really decided. I still mostly uphaul. If and when I get around to waterstarting all the time, a camless sail will be better.

Those oh so rare 18 mph days, lulls 16, gusts 20, can have rec foiler on 5.2's and rec windsurfers fully planing on 5.2 also..and on 90 liter
freeride boards, both 160 lbs.

Well... I got out this afternoon. Had a FANTASTIC session with my 8.0 Ezzy Cheetah combined with the i99 wing on my Fanatic Falcon. My anemometer said it was blowing 10.1mph when I hit the water, but I feel it picked up a bit... the gust produced some occasional small Whitecaps but that was it. Mainly just "dark water" and wind ripples.
I am THRILLED to say the i99 works amazingly well in the deep Tuttle box on the Falcon light wind. I was able to get on foil in a puff and go for nearly half a mile before having to turn around and head back. The i99 definitely has some amazing early lift, and flies really well. No idea of my top speed as I have no way to check that. I am not up to really carving turns yet, but I did make a few off wind turns to feel how the wing acts. I don't have anything to compare it to, so I'll have to just say that I like it, and it felt really comfortable for me. I was mostly surprised at how well it worked under the Falcon LW, with the 8.0 sail for power. I was out for close to 2.5 hours of nonstop grinning and flying.

My 1st day was great for 5 minutes, 5.2 and Naish. Then gusts hit 21, back down to 10, and I came in when it averaged 20 in less than 1/2 hour.
Wsurfed with 85 liter board and then the wind died to sub10 in the gusts.

2nd day was even better.
Stuck the foil with PP on a 98 liter slalom board, slogged 300 yards to dwindling, foiled almost 1/2 mile farther, wind drops sub 5, fall on sink tail jibeuphaul 14 times moving 20 feet total, and swim for an hour dragging the gear in calm breeze.

Hey LeeD, I gotta laugh since many of my foiling days in the Gorge are like that. Such days will completely exhaust you without much feeling of having accomplished anything.

Well, we are getting wind today out in the far eastern Gorge. I hope to get some TOF (time on foil) today at Port Kelley. Quality TOF, that is.

This was my first summer foiling (not completely over just yet). Here's my 2 cents worth.

I have three boards I'm using for foiling -- a JP Formula; an Isonic 130 and the Sling Shot Wizard 125. I have three Sling Shot wings (84, 76 and a much smaller blue one that was packaged with the 84). I have an assortment of sails including a 6.0 and a 7.0 Flyer. The range is 3.6 to 10.0. With the 84 wing I can get up on the foil in very light winds -- probably 8 or 9 knots. I weigh 71 kilos (about 157 pounds). In my op;inion the Wizard 125 is maxed out with a 6.0. I've used my 7.0 but the Wizard will easily bury its nose with the 7.0. My Isonic 130 feels like it has at least 25 litres on the Wizard, not just 5.

To start with I've foiled in 8 knots and 30 knots and wear an impact jacket and helmet and it's a good thing because I've taken some brutal slams and so have my boards.

I bought a Surfbent board protector to save the nose of my boards and learned it doesn't work properly with a universal that uses rubber or nylon material because the material stretches when the bottom of the mast connects with the leading edge of the Surfbent allowing the mast to continue its downward trajectory into the board. I'm only using a universal with a solid swivel rather than rubber and it works great with the Surfbent.

Where I foil it's pretty shallow so I'm using a 70 cm. mast (I also have a 60 cm. and 90 com. mast).

I knew that learning to foil wasn't going to be a walk in the park but with many years of windsurfing experience behind me I didn't think it would be quite this difficult, especially in 25 to 30 knots.

I've been experimenting with wing positions on the fuselage (A, B and C) and mast track positioning, both of which make a big difference to performance. Again, adjustments have to be made depending on wind conditions. Hopefully at some point I'll look at the wind and just know what wing will work and where the sail's mast should go.

In light winds I'm in the straps and harness. for some long fun runs. As suggested here, I raised my boom a few inches and moved my harness lines forward a little in order to stay more upright and be able to shift my weight forward quickly when needed (when hit by a gust).

In high winds I now stay out of the harness and keep my back foot just in front of the back straps for survival reasons. I've been hit with some big gusts, one of which resulted in a breach and a slam so hard that I broke a harness line. I've taken some really brutal beatings.

Anyway, I'm totally addicted to foiling and only windsurfed once this summer. I'm foiling every chance I get -- I love it, slams and all.

This forum is a great resource and I certainly appreciate the help I've gleaned from it thus far.

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I am located in Holland Michigan.
I just don't want to spend money on the 8.8 Naish if it won't be a good foiling sail.

I worked in Saginaw, windsurfed in Traverse City, played tennis in Kalamazoo. Love MI because of nature and people.
This is not my track but I know some people from IL foiling there:
www.kitetracker.com/gps/tracking?r=frpgear_20e
Do not buy anything larger than 7.
I am shopping for 6
Do not buy cambered sails.
Light wind foiling starts from 10 km/h wind speed with normal size wings and sails. Larger span wings (not larger area) help more than larger sails. You will never get in flight in light wind if you do not learn how to propel yourself by pumping to accelerate for a take off. Large area wings do not fly well on light wind, particularly in your area with no constant wind. You need a fast setup so you can get in flight in a gust, accelerate, and continue when wind drops below 10km/h.
Perhaps, with poor skill and foil you have to accelerate downwind. If so, you will not go fast or sharp upwind on that foil. Need to be able to accelerate in the best direction to continue the flight. Fast foil goes more than 3 time of wind speed at light wind. So, in flight it is sharp upwind course regardless the direction you go. Rig your sail as flat as you can.
Here is an example how Americans do it on the East Coast. Check the timing of their other videos and other gps tracks to get an idea how fast one can expect progression in foiling skill.

P.S. There are many self proclaimed experts in foiling, while foiling is very new. How it could be so many experts already? They give suggestions based on very limited experience with one or two foils never flown over 20 knots or 8knots VMG. This is why very few participants here post their videos or gps tracks

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ZYX said..

I am located in Holland Michigan.
I just don't want to spend money on the 8.8 Naish if it won't be a good foiling sail.

I worked in Saginaw, windsurfed in Traverse City, played tennis in Kalamazoo. Love MI because of nature and people.
This is not my track but I know some people from IL foiling there:
www.kitetracker.com/gps/tracking?r=frpgear_20e
Do not buy anything larger than 7.
I am shopping for 6
Do not buy cambered sails.
Light wind foiling starts from 10 km/h wind speed with normal size wings and sails. Larger span wings (not larger area) help more than larger sails. You will never get in flight in light wind if you do not learn how to propel yourself by pumping to accelerate for a take off. Large area wings do not fly well on light wind, particularly in your area with no constant wind. You need a fast setup so you can get in flight in a gust, accelerate, and continue when wind drops below 10km/h.
No need to accelerate downwind on a low drag foil. Accelerate in the best direction to continue flight. Fast foil goes more than 3 time of wind speed at light wind. So, it is sharp upwind course regardless the direction you go. Rig your sail as flat as you can. Here is an example how Americans do it on the East Coast. Check the timing of their other videos and other gps tracks to get an idea how fast one can expect progression in foiling skill.

Nice soundtrack of a beach at a place that has no shore break...

That video is exactly why a lot of us use cambered sails in low wind. That sail kept collapsing and the rider kept having to pump back up to speed. As I could see white caps, that was easily enough wind to stay on the foil without pumping with the right gear.

ZYX. still pitching that frp stuff? After telling us no one needs a fuse, I see your latest design has a fuse.

dejavu, foiling in 30 knots is no walk in the park. Congrats for giving it a go!

Paducah,

Yes. Still pitching frp. Satisfied with the results completely.
Pictures (videos) cost 1000-s of words.
Just from my engineering work experience with GE in Kalamazoo, MI : many coworkers are talking, while a few working.
Any videos or gps of your own to support what you suggested here? Perhaps you can tell where you are normally foiling? Just to make sure you are a real foiler and not an employee pitching here. (you commented right away after me)
It is kind of impolite for someone in Australia to teach an American how to measure the wind speed on American soil.

I think 30 knots is max, and not even on 2 sec, and may be without Doppler. but still good. Not me - someone very good from IL.
www.kitetracker.com/gps/tracking?r=frpgear_20e

Since you are pretending to be an expert, here is my question:
Windsurfers typicly go maximum 30 knots while the record is 54
Foilers typically maximum 25 while the record is 34
Do you think there are experts in windsurfing and not yet experts in foiling since average foilers go nearly as fast as the experts?

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ZYX said..

It is kind of impolite for someone in Australia to teach an American how to measure the wind speed on American soil.

It's impolite to assume I'm Australian - well, to the Australians, anyway.

Whitecaps work pretty well the same in most places (I'm not sure about at altitude). I qualify as close enough for my comment not to be impolite.

The 05.3 issue of Windsurfing Now has a discussion about cammed versus camless sails for windfoiling.

I still use both and have not decided what I like better.

Cams favor longer powered up stable straight line foiling.
Wave sails favor turns, maneuvers, and tricks.
Nothing does it all without some compromise.

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LeeD said..
Cams favor longer powered up stable straight line foiling.
Wave sails favor turns, maneuvers, and tricks.
Nothing does it all without some compromise.

It's a bit more than that. For many of us, at the low end, cams help quite a bit to keep the shape of the sail, ie less than powered up sailing. That's why you see lightweight but cammed freeride foil sails like the Sailworks Flyer, Duotone F-type, Loft Skyscape, Iris X, Swart RS, Severne Foil Glide, Naish's new cammed foil sails, etc.

You are absolutely correct about the stability. For learning foilers, stability also means that the power is more consistent so it's easier to maintain level flight over a wider wind range.

The beauty of the foil is that in light wind, it is much more maneuverable than an equivalent slapper. We aren't doing tricks but otherwise, imho, we are as maneuverable as a 100-115 lt free ride board with a pretty wide wind range. If foiling 360s is your thing, sure, absolutely go camless. If you want to ride as much as possible in 8-20, a good cammed foil freeride or 2-3 cam normal freeride/freerace sail gets it done and is still fun to ride.

Had a great weekend of foiling!
Got out Saturday morning before 8am in sunshine and mid 70's air and 70 degree water. Wind was 15-20 mph, and pretty steady in that range I'd say. Rigged the 7.0 Flyer with the i99 front wing and hit the water. 2 passes out and back and I had to drop to the 6.0 Flyer. It was PERFECT for that combination (at least for me). Got about 3.5 hours out in slowly building waves on Lake Michigan. Packed up around 3 and drove 45 minutes north to a breakwater I could get behind and launch in flatter water and make my way out into what turned out to be nearly 6 foot swells further offshore. Pretty timid going out, but coming in was a hoot! I do not consider myself to be good by any means, but I sure had a helluva good time learning to luff the sail and use the foil to ride the swells, and repower as needed. Some of my friends were down the shore a bit working on SUP foiling, and some were prone surfing. I made my way downwind to there location and was able to ride a few waves near them before heading back to more sheltered water.
I made some marks on the bottom of the Levitator to track where I have the foil mast located in different conditions. I put the foil mast as far back as possible and made marks in half inch increments. Saturday, and today, I basically had the i99 at "0". I could have possibly moved it to the half inch mark, as I was a little bit back foot heavy, but it didn't really bother me. My UJ was pretty much centered in the mast track.
This afternoon I went out on some flat water in some strong wind, rigged my 6.0 Flyer as flat as I could and I was quite overpowered most of the time. Probably could have dropped to the i84 wing. But I didn't have too much time before a hard rain was coming.

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excav8ter said..I made some marks on the bottom of the Levitator to track where I have the foil mast located in different conditions. I put the foil mast as far back as possible and made marks in half inch increments. Saturday, and today, I basically had the i99 at "0". I could have possibly moved it to the half inch mark, as I was a little bit back foot heavy, but it didn't really bother me. My UJ was pretty much centered in the mast track.

Excav8ter> It looks like you are having a good experience with your new levitator unlike me! How is your experience of i99 vs i84 on your levitator? Is i99 significantly more stable ? Are you using the straps on your Levitator or going out without it. What positions are you using for each foil (A, B vs C) and what is the back wing 48 vs 42 cm?

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SALKAN said..

excav8ter said..I made some marks on the bottom of the Levitator to track where I have the foil mast located in different conditions. I put the foil mast as far back as possible and made marks in half inch increments. Saturday, and today, I basically had the i99 at "0". I could have possibly moved it to the half inch mark, as I was a little bit back foot heavy, but it didn't really bother me. My UJ was pretty much centered in the mast track.

Excav8ter> It looks like you are having a good experience with your new levitator unlike me! How is your experience of i99 vs i84 on your levitator? Is i99 significantly more stable ? Are you using the straps on your Levitator or going out without it. What positions are you using for each foil (A, B vs C) and what is the back wing 48 vs 42 cm?

@Salkan... yeah! I am having a great time with my Levitator. This past weekend was more than I could have hoped for by an long way. About 6 hours on the water on Saturday and then another hour or so on Sunday.

I have had both the i84 and i99 in "B" position. The sail mast has been pretty much in the center of the mast track everytime I've been out.

The i99 is really stable and I think it's fairly maneuverable (but I'm a newbie). I have been peeling turns downwind and back upwind with relative ease. I even caught some legit glides on some 4 foot swells Saturday night. Such a rush.

I have only had the i84 out in rough water for a few passes, but I didn't think it was "unstable". It may have been a bit more sensitive to foot pressure, but I was able to handle it ok after a few minutes.

I had the i99 at 0" and the i84 at about 1" or 1.5" forward of "0" (hopefully that makes sense)

I've been using the 48cm rear wing.

I only have the front foot straps on the board for now. The are mounted more towards the center of the board. It will take some time before I put the rear foot straps on, as i seem to move my back foot around a fair bit.

The wind is supposed to be good tomorrow night, so I will try to take some pictures of how I have it set up.

Another typical day today, Berkeley Ca.
Forecast for light breeze, hot spell starting today.
It's 5-14 as I start to rig. Racefoilers rigging 7.8 and bigger.
I chose 4.2. Hadn't rigged it in 11 years.
First 4 runs fine, then it Jacks to 23 in the gusts. Even retuning max down and out barely works and I head in followed by my 2 buds on their 4.5 and 4.7 rec foils, and every racer on their 7+ sails...too much in the gusts, too little in the lulls.
Windsurfers on 6's are dialed.
Everyone comes in within 20 minutes of me as the wind goes 3-23.

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LeeD said..
Another typical day today, Berkeley Ca.
Forecast for light breeze, hot spell starting today.
It's 5-14 as I start to rig. Racefoilers rigging 7.8 and bigger.
I chose 4.2. Hadn't rigged it in 11 years.
First 4 runs fine, then it Jacks to 23 in the gusts. Even retuning max down and out barely works and I head in followed by my 2 buds on their 4.5 and 4.7 rec foils, and every racer on their 7+ sails...too much in the gusts, too little in the lulls.
Windsurfers on 6's are dialed.
Everyone comes in within 20 minutes of me as the wind goes 3-23.

My experience is that in winds like that foilers have all the advantage! Just rig to get going in the gusts, but take a wing with loads of glide and minimal drag to get through long lulls (Racefoil with a 3.0 or 3.5 wavesail is perfect in these situations), or a big enough wing you can pump without a sail ;).