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jims said..
One thing that's clear from all of these foiling videos is that I'm gonna have to re-learn how to jibe. I'm a throw-the-sail-then-switch-the-feet, strap-to-strap kind of guy. I'm sure any orthopedist would cringe, but I frequently either have a foot in the wrong (old) strap, or a foot in both front straps when exiting my jibe, LoL. Looks like a far more disciplined approach is needed on foils.

You will have to re-learn nearly everything.

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PhilUK said..

jims said..
One thing that's clear from all of these foiling videos is that I'm gonna have to re-learn how to jibe. I'm a throw-the-sail-then-switch-the-feet, strap-to-strap kind of guy. I'm sure any orthopedist would cringe, but I frequently either have a foot in the wrong (old) strap, or a foot in both front straps when exiting my jibe, LoL. Looks like a far more disciplined approach is needed on foils.

You will have to re-learn nearly everything.

Yeah and then you'll step back onto a regular finned board on a windy day, cruise without having to worry about altitude control, and just think "Wow, this is relaxing!"

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jims said..
One thing that's clear from all of these foiling videos is that I'm gonna have to re-learn how to jibe. I'm a throw-the-sail-then-switch-the-feet, strap-to-strap kind of guy. I'm sure any orthopedist would cringe, but I frequently either have a foot in the wrong (old) strap, or a foot in both front straps when exiting my jibe, LoL. Looks like a far more disciplined approach is needed on foils.

Your strap to strap gybes and back to front stance are techniques used in foiling

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jims said..
One thing that's clear from all of these foiling videos is that I'm gonna have to re-learn how to jibe. I'm a throw-the-sail-then-switch-the-feet, strap-to-strap kind of guy. I'm sure any orthopedist would cringe, but I frequently either have a foot in the wrong (old) strap, or a foot in both front straps when exiting my jibe, LoL. Looks like a far more disciplined approach is needed on foils.

A good friend of mine, expert level B&J, bit less on slalom, took three years to jibe fluently But the first year he was on the first generation NP aluminum foil, and a JP slalom 135 that we modified for foiling.

Now, at 100+ Kg, he looks great free riding his JP 120 + Moses Baltz Pro using 3.3 to 5.5. He still cannot really jibe well his Startboard Race Foil with NP 7.0 or 7.8 3 cams race sails.

Myself, I cannot even go straight that well on a foil!!!!! but you'll learn it!

PS Hey wee need more little faces on this web site!

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jims said..
One thing that's clear from all of these foiling videos is that I'm gonna have to re-learn how to jibe. I'm a throw-the-sail-then-switch-the-feet, strap-to-strap kind of guy. I'm sure any orthopedist would cringe, but I frequently either have a foot in the wrong (old) strap, or a foot in both front straps when exiting my jibe, LoL. Looks like a far more disciplined approach is needed on foils.

Strap to strap is the way to go on freeride foil gear.
You'll get a lot more gybe practice on the foil. And that practice will improve your fin gybes.

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duzzi said..

CoreAS said..

duzzi said..

CoreAS said..

PhilUK said..

CoreAS said..
2:42 on the video windsurfer and myself windfoiling.

Wind was 15 mph, we are both having fun so everyone has choices!

a) 8.5, board and fin
b) 5.0, board and foil

The main difference its difficult to do 100% planning gybes or duck gybes on a 8.5

When windsurfing in lighter winds there is always the schlog factor, carrying big/heavy sails, sail drag etc but with wind foil you are always moving and having fun, the sensation of going off the wind on a foil equals doing coke, JimS

Yeah but that windsurf board looks a older longer narrower board. An 8.5m Cheetah would be more suited to a 80-85cm wide board for light winds. I use an old board (2003) with my Ezzy Lion 8.5m, just 125l, but its 80cm wide, 235cm long and has a wide 57.3cm tail ofo.
You are using the latest Slingshot foil which you said you have had 23mph out of, the older Hover did just 20 mph. Both are slow. They arent fast foils.
I can plane out of gybes in 15mph winds. I dont duck gybe anything.
I wouldnt fancy launching in a shorebreak with a foil. Or sail in shallow water. Hit the bottom and you could break the nuts/mountings in the fuselage and then thats trouble. Cross thread a fin bolt and you can replace it cheaply. Low tide in Poole Harbour I'll be using my fin board.

This thread seems to have turned into a discussion about which is the best. I'm going to use foils to compliment my fin boards. I've posted 55 session on the GPS site with my 8.5m. Slowest is 19.9 knots for the 10 second average. Fastest 24.77. On my foil kit, I'll be happy if I reach 22. Top speed isnt my main aim but dont want to chug around, its making the best out of the conditions.

If you want to compare speeds:
Poole Harbour in a choppy southerly 15 knots average wind gusting 20. Not quick speeds as it wasnt much good for that as it as so choppy.
Today was the first time I have seen all 3 sail at the same time on different kit.

Garry on the foil, been doing it nearly 3 years and still improving. He is usually is quicker than the other 2 on a fin, by about 1 knot.
Bob & Danny have switched to proper slalom kit in the last 2 years and both improving.

Garry 24.56 knots 10s average.
www.gps-foilsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=user&val=366151&uid=18265&spotid=598

Bob 26.55 knots 10s average.
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/?mnu=user&val=366141&uid=24325&spotid=598

Danny 26.36 knots 10s average.
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/?mnu=user&val=366146&uid=23796

No one was mentioning speeds?

I said "wind was 15mph and we were both having fun"

for the OP he could see the choices, either 8.5 sail or 5.0. For that given wind strength.

I weigh 18 kg more and using a 3.5 meter smaller sail. Maybe the OP sees value in that.if so great!
Slingshot have never marketed or designed foils for racing there are clearly a free foil. (BTW I have an F4 foil that I've got 27.2 knots but that's not what I prefer to ride now)

the slingshot ptm 926 HA wing I recently got 21.2 mph using a 5.0 wave sail in 12-13mph wind, it's not about the top speed, you factor in my weight the wind speed and sail size and then you have a choice between big windsurfing kit and mow the lawn sailing, or smaller more efficient foiling kit and maybe that will push you to try new things?

But, no, the choice is not btw 5.0 foil and 8.5 windsurf. Your video shows two sailors going around the pond at sub-20 knots of speed ... that is typical for a slingshot, but it is completely irrelevant if you want to reach any conclusion about relative light air performance of foil vs fin.

And we know the answer already: 7-13 knots a foil (with a big sail) has the advantage.

Anyway ... foil is good, windsurf is good, wings are good: have fun everybody!

Pond

You still haven't provided a single thread of any evidence, just all mouth and nothing to back anything up!

Yes, that is going around the pond, in the sense that you are both happily and joyously freeriding. Looks like fun!

But what evidence do you need? We all seem to agree that in variable light wind, call it 7-13, a foil has an advantage, maybe even for a 70 Kg pilot. With the caveat that if you go below 10 knots a foil will require technique, and/or big sails, to go.

But just a notch up, average 13 knots, force 4 (11-16 knots) is VERY good for a 70 Kg, or any windsurfer, really. Force 4 is described as numerous white caps, tree branches moving. I would be on a 6.5-6.8 powered up with no problem.

For someone that doesn't like foiling you sure seem to know a lot about it? now you're saying you must go big sail in 10 knots or less..

Meanwhile on a man made lake in Dallas, the slingshot foil you think is sh!t. Disclaimer its slow but no windsurfers out that day to compare against?

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PhilUK said..

jims said..
One thing that's clear from all of these foiling videos is that I'm gonna have to re-learn how to jibe. I'm a throw-the-sail-then-switch-the-feet, strap-to-strap kind of guy. I'm sure any orthopedist would cringe, but I frequently either have a foot in the wrong (old) strap, or a foot in both front straps when exiting my jibe, LoL. Looks like a far more disciplined approach is needed on foils.

You will have to re-learn nearly everything.

That's for sure!!. Once the board lifts off, your not wind surfing, and the learning starts all over. But SOooo worth it !!
.

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CoreAS said..

duzzi said..

CoreAS said..

duzzi said..

CoreAS said..

To quote Elsa: Let it goh! Let it GOOOH!!

Seriously guys, Let it Go.

Cool video, You gotta admit, a 200lb guy on a 5.8 in that wind is kinda cool.

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jims said..

CoreAS said..

duzzi said..

CoreAS said..

duzzi said..

CoreAS said..

To quote Elsa: Let it goh! Let it GOOOH!!

Seriously guys, Let it Go.

"Flights will go on as long as they have to."

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jims said..
To quote Elsa: Let it goh! Let it GOOOH!!
Seriously guys, Let it Go.

Let it be, let it be, let it be, oh let it be -Topic

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jims said..

CoreAS said..

duzzi said..

CoreAS said..

duzzi said..

CoreAS said..

To quote Elsa: Let it goh! Let it GOOOH!!

Seriously guys, Let it Go.

Cool video, You gotta admit, a 200lb guy on a 5.8 in that wind is kinda cool.

Can you buy that setup for $2,000? If you can, how long will it take you to get to a standard where you can do that in 5-10mph?
I'm new to foiling and no way would I learn on that kit in light winds. I need wind to learn.
Once you are an expert it is interesting to see how little wind with small kit some experts can get going with, but I'd be bored stupid in the conditions in that video.
How are you with learning new skills? Can you go anywhere to get some lessons? Friends taught me to windsurf and ski (the basics), I learnt snowboarding on my own. Foiling lessons were all booked up over our summer so I'm self taught by watching videos and a friend has picked out a couple of faults I had to start with. He took 1 short video clip of me which showed how bent my legs were, that was a big help. Foiling is great for lowering the wind limits you can sail in but try not to get sucked into people saying you can get foiling on small kit compared to windsurfers when the people they are comparing themselves against are at a different level in standard.

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jims said..
One thing that's clear from all of these foiling videos is that I'm gonna have to re-learn how to jibe. I'm a throw-the-sail-then-switch-the-feet, strap-to-strap kind of guy.

Straps to straps is way easier than step jibe on a foil. And generally speaking, jibe on a foil is easier than true planning jibe with a fin...

Time to foil obviously depends on your conditions and options to train.
As a recreational experienced windsurfer I was starting last year with foiling. It took me 3x 3h to fly reasonable stable on a straight line. Maybe another 6month to feel comfortable doing so. By the end of the first year noissues with flying or carving and starting to think about jibing.
2nd year now ends and I managed to get my first flying jibes but being pretty reasonable at sail pumping.
So expect 2-3 years to do circles around others.

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PhilUK said..
Can you buy that setup for $2,000? If you can, how long will it take you to get to a standard where you can do that in 5-10mph?

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing - that guy clearly has some mad skills. I didn't even think about the equipment side of things - looked like maybe he was on a Slingshot setup?

I have no illusions nor make no claims that even little 138lb me could manage that in those conditions (equipment aside), but it's still very cool to see!

I'm sort of a perpetual intermediate at things. I tend to very quickly progress through the beginner stage on things, in part due to a bit of obsessive nature :-), but I also rarely ever reach the level of true expert - I usually eventually sort of stall out at mid/upper-intermediate level and stay stuck there, LoL. But, that's usually enough skill that I'm not continually beating myself up at things. Hearing @Peer78 describe that it took him essentially 2 years to get a flying jibe down is certainly a bit sobering, but doesn't sound overly daunting if I'm out there having fun sailing, learning, and being on the water, which is more than I've done on a regular board on any regular basis in a very long time.

Flying jibe is similar to full planing jibe....a measure of level and skill.
Certainly not necessary for fun, but nice to attain.

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6u1d0 said..

That's cool to see! Most of the other foiling videos I've seen, guys seem to switch feet very early in the jibe, often even before they've really started the sail flip. Not that I couldn't adjust, but I've got some long-standing habits that I'd need to re-jigger a bit. I truth, I really enjoy the strap-to-strap and 'wrong foot in the strap' (I think @John340 called it 'back to front'?) exit method - it tends to give me the smoothest exits from carving jibes, and also tends to reduce chop problems in the jibe, as I'm never w/o at least one foot in a strap. (It does require supple knees and a fair bit of weight down through the boom...) I've had people warn me that one day I'll rip my knees apart with the double-front-strap exit, but so far, so good, LoL. :-)

Can you get used gear for 2K? I saw this year a guy selling a 2020 Fanatic StingRay 140 HRS, great condition for 1k. Get a used track aluminum low aspect foil for $750 and used foil sail for $250.

In reference to learning. Ocean Air might have some lessons or ABK always has clinics around the country for foiling. They tend to be on the East Coast after August.

This is the upcoming list. NE and your area already passed for this year.

www.abkboardsports.com/camps

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ZeroVix said..
Can you get used gear for 2K? I saw this year a guy selling a 2020 Fanatic StingRay 140 HRS, great condition for 1k. Get a used track aluminum low aspect foil for $750 and used foil sail for $250.

In reference to learning. Ocean Air might have some lessons or ABK always has clinics around the country for foiling. They tend to be on the East Coast after August.

This is the upcoming list. NE and your area already passed for this year.

www.abkboardsports.com/camps

Yeah, I'm really hopeful that I can find something down at Ocean Air or elsewhere down there in a week or two! The fellow I talked to briefly by phone at Ocean Air said that their 2021 demo equipment was selling for 20-40% off retail, but I have no idea what the equipment it is, or what retail is/was on that. I'll have to see when I get down there, if there is anything I can get w/in my budget. I'm really hoping/planning to make do with my current collection of sails, at least to get started. I think trying to add a sail to the equation would push things beyond where I'm willing/able to go.

Funny you mention ABK - I was down sailing at Barton's a week or two before Andy was going to be there! I was sorely tempted to try to run back down for his camp there, but alas my son's birthday was the same weekend, and I couldn't in good conscience abandon his birthday to go sail. I did a camp with Andy way (way) back when in Dewey Beach, DE, and it was a really great time (incredible few days of wind, too!!), and I learned some good stuff. I'm kinda low-level planning to attend one of his clinics next year. (The tough part might be deciding whether to do it on a fin or a foil, LoL... :-) I was wondering if I might be able to talk someone at Ocean Air or elsewhere down there to do a beginner foiling lesson with me while I'm down there - I think that would really help me get past some of the initial ignorance-level stuff. Anyway, hopefully work, family, and weather will all cooperate, I'll be able to get down there in a week or so, and see what's what!

So long as you aren't sailing downwind significantly faster than the wind speed then flipping the sail first works just fine.
Things get a bit different on gear which gybes significantly faster than the wind.

For me foil gybes on slower freeride gear remind me strongly of gybing a wave board down an outside swell. Get the timing right and it feels like you've got forever to switch your feet.
Generally going from my wave board to foil I have to remind myself to slow everything right down.

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jims said..

6u1d0 said..

That's cool to see! Most of the other foiling videos I've seen, guys seem to switch feet very early in the jibe, often even before they've really started the sail flip. Not that I couldn't adjust, but I've got some long-standing habits that I'd need to re-jigger a bit. I truth, I really enjoy the strap-to-strap and 'wrong foot in the strap' (I think @John340 called it 'back to front'?) exit method - it tends to give me the smoothest exits from carving jibes, and also tends to reduce chop problems in the jibe, as I'm never w/o at least one foot in a strap. (It does require supple knees and a fair bit of weight down through the boom...) I've had people warn me that one day I'll rip my knees apart with the double-front-strap exit, but so far, so good, LoL. :-)

The most important thing is to not oversheet.

.be

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Faff said..
The most important thing is to not oversheet.

That will be hard to un-learn!

And a word of warning about foiling, it's addictive. There should be a foilers anonymous group, it starts with one foil, you look for a cheap one, you learn, get flying and your hooked, no turning back. No longer are you looking for cheap, you want the best. I know, I have 6 foils now and another on order, should probably sell a few.

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airsail said..
And a word of warning about foiling, it's addictive. There should be a foilers anonymous group, it starts with one foil, you look for a cheap one, you learn, get flying and your hooked, no turning back. No longer are you looking for cheap, you want the best. I know, I have 6 foils now and another on order, should probably sell a few.

Now you tell me.

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airsail said..
...should probably sell a few.

I'm here... ;-> (albeit about 10k miles away, LoL...)

North Beach Windsurfing in St. Pete Beach has foil lessons in warm water and with nice folks.

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jims said..

Faff said..
The most important thing is to not oversheet.

That will be hard to un-learn!

The first time you get backwinded and slapped off the board, you'll unlearn.

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Paducah said..
The first time you get backwinded and slapped off the board, you'll unlearn.

I can be a little bit dense sometimes, I suspect it'll take more than once or twice...

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Faff said..

The most important thing is to not oversheet.

Weird. My best gybes are the ones where I attempt to oversheet on entry. But it is no where near as aggressive an oversheet as the guy is showing in that video.

www.instagram.com/p/CT4tox3lcQL/

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jims said..


That's cool to see! Most of the other foiling videos I've seen, guys seem to switch feet very early in the jibe, often even before they've really started the sail flip.

There isn't a unique way to jibe, foiling or fining has the same range of style. For my personal experience, I am not a very proficient windsurfer. Before beginning foiling, I wasn't succeeding at true planing jibe. As you, I live inland away from cool windsurf spot. There's a lake (la Ganguise) not to far, but the wind is quite irregular there, and I never sailed windsurf there as it is almost not possible to get a 600m reach with constant planing. Foiling made everything different.
But I still need about 12-15kt gust for take off, then flying through sub 10kt lull is ok. Take off with sub 10kt wind is definitely another story : you need large camed efficient sail, high perf foil, and more of all very good stamina for pumping heavy rig : definitely not me.
As for the training time to get foil jibe, usually about 2 years, but you have to understand that in the past 2 years, most of the work was inventing the windfoil (at least polishing it). Now you can get many information on what works and why. In fact too much information : you have to find out who is giving you the advice applicable to your spot (wind speed, gust and lull, chop, length of reach available...) and your sailing style (rather wave, freestyle, freerider, racer...). Even at a given spot with exact same foil, I ride very different rig and tuning from one of my good friend : He favors large camed sail, more advanced mast base and longer outboard straps board, while I am riding a tiny (shorter than I am tall) inboard straps and low aspect wave style sail (naish chopper). And both tunings make sense. Note he is about 100kg while I am sub 70kg... and he usually cruises at 25kt while I top at 23kt... But I duckjibe.
Whatever way you foil, you'll have to figure out what works for you and your spot. So if there are proficient foilers where you sail, try to get some information from them. Also try to get some physic knowledge on how a foil works : it is very similar to a soar plane, so there's plenty of literature for any level of scientific knowledge. Then you have to experiment and think for yourself. Sail balance and type (camed race or wave) is critical. Flying is quite easy, but then you have to tune and choose your gear. When you feel stuck, it is most likely that you are restricted by some of your gear (board, foil or sail), and when you make the correct change, you suddenly step forward. So yes it takes time, but I believe that with all the informations available, you can take some shortcuts.
I am sure that a proficient windsurfer (I mean someone able to perform true planing jibes) should be able to succeed at foiljibe touch and go (just touching at the exit) within a year of practice.
Once again, foiling is way easier than fin as there are less random input in the situation. But any mistake in the technic ends up in water while with a fin it usually just ends up with stalled speed. But that's also why many fin riders are stuck at non planing jibe : it kinda works out, so they keep on doing the same not so good thing. With a foil, if it isn't correct, you'll fall out. So you either sort it out or give up.

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6u1d0 said..

jims said..


That's cool to see! Most of the other foiling videos I've seen, guys seem to switch feet very early in the jibe, often even before they've really started the sail flip.

There isn't a unique way to jibe, foiling or fining has the same range of style. For my personal experience, I am not a very proficient windsurfer. Before beginning foiling, I wasn't succeeding at true planing jibe. As you, I live inland away from cool windsurf spot. There's a lake (la Ganguise) not to far, but the wind is quite irregular there, and I never sailed windsurf there as it is almost not possible to get a 600m reach with constant planing. Foiling made everything different.
But I still need about 12-15kt gust for take off, then flying through sub 10kt lull is ok. Take off with sub 10kt wind is definitely another story : you need large camed efficient sail, high perf foil, and more of all very good stamina for pumping heavy rig : definitely not me.
As for the training time to get foil jibe, usually about 2 years, but you have to understand that in the past 2 years, most of the work was inventing the windfoil (at least polishing it). Now you can get many information on what works and why. In fact too much information : you have to find out who is giving you the advice applicable to your spot (wind speed, gust and lull, chop, length of reach available...) and your sailing style (rather wave, freestyle, freerider, racer...). Even at a given spot with exact same foil, I ride very different rig and tuning from one of my good friend : He favors large camed sail, more advanced mast base and longer outboard straps board, while I am riding a tiny (shorter than I am tall) inboard straps and low aspect wave style sail (naish chopper). And both tunings make sense. Note he is about 100kg while I am sub 70kg... and he usually cruises at 25kt while I top at 23kt... But I duckjibe.
Whatever way you foil, you'll have to figure out what works for you and your spot. So if there are proficient foilers where you sail, try to get some information from them. Also try to get some physic knowledge on how a foil works : it is very similar to a soar plane, so there's plenty of literature for any level of scientific knowledge. Then you have to experiment and think for yourself. Sail balance and type (camed race or wave) is critical. Flying is quite easy, but then you have to tune and choose your gear. When you feel stuck, it is most likely that you are restricted by some of your gear (board, foil or sail), and when you make the correct change, you suddenly step forward. So yes it takes time, but I believe that with all the informations available, you can take some shortcuts.
I am sure that a proficient windsurfer (I mean someone able to perform true planing jibes) should be able to succeed at foiljibe touch and go (just touching at the exit) within a year of practice.
Once again, foiling is way easier than fin as there are less random input in the situation. But any mistake in the technic ends up in water while with a fin it usually just ends up with stalled speed. But that's also why many fin riders are stuck at non planing jibe : it kinda works out, so they keep on doing the same not so good thing. With a foil, if it isn't correct, you'll fall out. So you either sort it out or give up.

Also foiling gives you many more opportunities to practice gybes (as long as you are moderately powered up and don't have to pump like crazy every time to get going) because they go upwind so well.