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LeeD said..
Beginner/intermediate foiling is plain SLOW.
Advanced can almost stay with average rec speedsters.
At the very top., ONE guy can crack top 10 in speed.

In the ocean freeride foil speed crosswind is similar to most bump & jumpers but foiling at tight angles upwind and deep downwind at 20 knots quickly leaves the fins way behind.

But I reckon speed is secondary - the main stoke of foiling is carving/turning, downwinding windswells (the bigger the better) - which is why it's worth learning how to foil in 20-35 knot winds

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kato said..
I've just put an order in for a foiling board so it will journey back to being a beginner . Haven't seen anyone foiling when I can plane on a 120 with a 9. And they're just so slow when there is a few out. Happy to stay bouncing of the chop. Looking forward to foiling on the waves

For an accomplished windsurfer like you, you may well enjoy the "beginner journey". It's pretty neat to get that adrenaline rush and trepidation we once got when we were starting out and we'd see the lightest of whitecaps and get worried about being overpowered.

Good luck and share your progress!

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LeeD said..
Beginner/intermediate foiling is plain SLOW.
Advanced can almost stay with average rec speedsters.
At the very top., ONE guy can crack top 10 in speed.

When you are starting, foiling at any speed feels very fast and exhilarating. Numbers don't tell the whole story, at least at the beginning.

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kato said..
I've just put an order in for a foiling board so it will journey back to being a beginner . Haven't seen anyone foiling when I can plane on a 120 with a 9. And they're just so slow when there is a few out. Happy to stay bouncing of the chop. Looking forward to foiling on the waves

Good luck! I really dislike foiling, but I wish you a lot of fun with it!

Are we failing to discern "speed" from "angle"?
Speed is speed.
When you go superior angles, you are going SLOWER. Slower. Slower is LESS speed!
That applies upwind and downwind.
But way powered deep broad is fast.

NONE of you foilers can keep up with a rec freerider in speed.
No rec freerider can stay near a slalom pro.
I'm sure I can windsurf at over 36 mph. Easy, because I sail with the GPS crowd.
Foiling, even with a 600 sq cm foil, 79 fuze, 90 mast, and 210 stab, I barely crack into the low 20's.

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LeeD said..
NONE of you foilers can keep up with a rec freerider in speed.
No rec freerider can stay near a slalom pro.
I'm sure I can windsurf at over 36 mph. Easy, because I sail with the GPS crowd.
Foiling, even with a 600 sq cm foil, 79 fuze, 90 mast, and 210 stab, I barely crack into the low 20's.

True but as it was said speed is secondary when you can cruise upwind and ride ocean swells. Also for me a huge benefit of foiling is more time on the water. Foiling takes less energy so I can go more hours and more days in a row. My windsurfing buddy is 20 years younger than me and he has to quit before me because he is using a bigger sail and getting way more beat up in the chop.

This post has become an avenue to cry. "I don't like foiling", "free ride sailing is faster"..... ADD or lack of focus? The OP wants to know if he can expand his time on the water on a lake in marginal conditions with a foil. The answer is yes. If you are too old, don't want to learn something new, stubborn and just out of shape. No, forget foiling. He is not in the Gorge, Bay area or constant wind areas. I hope you get that. It is a freaking lake with crappy wind. Period.

While the speed observations are interesting (and sort of expected, based on other things I've read), in the end, the absolute speed really isn't of much importance to me. A great deal of what I love about planing conditions is being able to carry speed through jibes, hops, etc - ie, carrying sufficient speed to be able to stay on plane while having fun. While the occasional drag race is fun, and in truth I'm generally trying to maximize speed below survival conditions, it's more that flowing/carving feeling that I most enjoy - and is why I pretty much gave up on inland sailing back in my heyday. If I could manage to equip myself and develop my skills to the point that I could get that flow/carve experience on a foil, in winds where I'd be slogging on a regular board (in reality, days I wouldn't bother going out on a regular board at all), I'd be very little concerned with the absolute speed at which that happens - I just want to increase the number of days that I'm having a good time on the water.

LoL, BTW - I'd never heard the term 'slappers' before, but I totally understand where it's coming from! :-) (And I FREAKING LOVE it when conditions are good enough to be slapping through and hopping over chop - those are the best days IMHO!!)

OP has asked the right question - How likely is it that he'll be able to foil in puffy winds on a small lake with nothing bigger than a 6.0. It's 100% and you should go for it, and US$2k is PLENTY to get started.

You'll want a low-aspect foil but at your weight something like the i76 is actually perfect. I don't like the engineering of the connections but there's no arguing with the versatility of the wing itself. The longer 91cm mast is scary but actually much easier to use than the shorter 61-71 lengths. People are upgrading now to stiffer setups so SSi76 rigs can be had at half of retail - make sure you get the longer fuse, not the shorter surf-oriented setup. For boards, again considering your light weight, almost anything with a deep Tuttle box will work IF you can get the mastfoot back far enough - you'll want to be able to get your mastfoot as close as 40" from the front Tuttle bolt, although you'll probably start at 41-43". In other words, most any slalom-style board from 2006 or later will work, but not earlier designs because the mastfoot will be too far forward. You can reinforce the box but honestly, most good DT boxes are already strong enough for everything except jumping or running aground.

I live on a small mountain lake during the summer and in a normal pre-foiling year I'd have at most three sessions in planing conditions because the winds are so gusty and shifty. A 10.0 would be needed in the lulls and would be unmanageable in the gusts. Last summer, with a big foil board, a big wing (2000cm - but I weigh 100kg) and no sail bigger than a 7.0, I had five times that many days. I'd drift/pump out to the middle and ride gusts, often fully planing and not even hooked in for hours - just impossible on a fin, no matter how big the sail. In winter my work takes me to the Florida coast and I sail 3-4 days/week, foiling almost all the time - just using fins for surf or when the water is really shallow.

There's a learning curve, but it's the same learning curve as learning to ride a shortboard, and just as exhilarating. There are certainly guys - sounds like Duzzi is one and I know others myself - who can pump/ooch a finned board up in as little wind as I can work onto a foil, even with the same size sail, and a lot of them are your size. But on small lakes, with minimal time, a foil is an utter session-saver.

I gave up slapping decades ago because I never got to ride and when I did I was only able to reach back and forth. Foiling brought me back to windsurfing. I am so greatful! For three plus years now I ride 1-3 times a week year round. I spent some time on a fin set up when I first came back so that I could build the muscle back, comapring it to foililing I much prefer the smooth, fluid, weatherly and low drag ride of the foil.

Go for it jims!

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ZeroVix said..
This post has become an avenue to cry. "I don't like foiling", "free ride sailing is faster"..... ADD or lack of focus? The OP wants to know if he can expand his time on the water on a lake in marginal conditions with a foil. The answer is yes. If you are too old, don't want to learn something new, stubborn and just out of shape. No, forget foiling. He is not in the Gorge, Bay area or constant wind areas. I hope you get that. It is a freaking lake with crappy wind. Period.

fwiw, a skilled local in his early 70s picked up foiling with no problem. Age really isn't a limit unless one wants to use that as an excuse. Many of the foilers where I live are in their 50s, 60s and that includes me.

The "but is it faster than windsurfing" thing is what kept so many of us from trying it in the first place. I remember getting my first rides and realizing, if you are asking if it's faster than windsurfing, you are asking the wrong question. Not that it can't be fast but there are so many other aspects of foiling as mentioned by so many of us above.

Affirming ZeroVix's point, a younger member of our group lives in the mountains a couple of hours north. His local lake is essentially a power plant cooling lake. The lake is small and winds about as gusty and variable as any location possible. He recently got his first foil and board and just loves it for all the reasons we've mentioned. Previously, he'd quite often have to drive an hour or two to get to a bigger lake in hopes of steadier and stronger wind. He's now having a blast in his own back yard.

I'm really glad I didn't come here asking if I should take up use of cocaine or such... ;->

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Paducah said..

ZeroVix said..
This post has become an avenue to cry. "I don't like foiling", "free ride sailing is faster"..... ADD or lack of focus? The OP wants to know if he can expand his time on the water on a lake in marginal conditions with a foil. The answer is yes. If you are too old, don't want to learn something new, stubborn and just out of shape. No, forget foiling. He is not in the Gorge, Bay area or constant wind areas. I hope you get that. It is a freaking lake with crappy wind. Period.

fwiw, a skilled local in his early 70s picked up foiling with no problem. Age really isn't a limit unless one wants to use that as an excuse. Many of the foilers where I live are in their 50s, 60s and that includes me.

The "but is it faster than windsurfing" thing is what kept so many of us from trying it in the first place. I remember getting my first rides and realizing, if you are asking if it's faster than windsurfing, you are asking the wrong question. Not that it can't be fast but there are so many other aspects of foiling as mentioned by so many of us above.

Affirming ZeroVix's point, a younger member of our group lives in the mountains a couple of hours north. His local lake is essentially a power plant cooling lake. The lake is small and winds about as gusty and variable as any location possible. He recently got his first foil and board and just loves it for all the reasons we've mentioned. Previously, he'd quite often have to drive an hour or two to get to a bigger lake in hopes of steadier and stronger wind. He's now having a blast in his own back yard.

I was referring being too old that you can barely walk and more sarcastic after some of the discouragements. I see more guys in their 60's and 70's foiling that would do nothing. That group is having more fun than anyone. Retired, going out every day and having a blast in light winds. Smaller board, lighter sail, smaller boom/mast, easy cruising.... I actually met a guy some time ago that was 83 (with hearing aid) that went out foiling. The reference being in shape is that you have to pump sometimes if the wind isn't cooperating. Learn to pump efficiently and those gust will be no problem. And you have to be willing to learn something new.

I have read all the comments, including the OP's followup comments, and "circle back" to ZeroVix's first comments. If jims still wants to achieve the goals he/she first states at the top, then ZeroVix's advice is still spot on:

"Get a low aspect wing (1350-2000 cm2) and the max sail you need is a 7.0m2. Try to find a used 85cm wide board and not too long with foil approved box or deep tuttle. If going deep tuttle, then a foil with flange on mast would be the safest. Not saying that you will destroy the tuttle box with your weight, just a piece of mind. You should be able to get everything under 2k. No need for carbon mast. Decent board, right size foil and a 7.0 m2 sail would do the trick."

I have given such advice to a couple of "older" beginning windfoilers who live far from the coast or from the gorge, far interior of Washington state and Idaho. They followed this advice and are now getting lots of productive foil time at their local far-inland lakes. They are very happy.

Re-read the quoted paragraph above. It covers exactly what the OP needs. Don't overthink this.

2:42 on the video windsurfer and myself windfoiling.

Wind was 15 mph, we are both having fun so everyone has choices!

a) 8.5, board and fin
b) 5.0, board and foil

The main difference its difficult to do 100% planning gybes or duck gybes on a 8.5

When windsurfing in lighter winds there is always the schlog factor, carrying big/heavy sails, sail drag etc but with wind foil you are always moving and having fun, the sensation of going off the wind on a foil equals doing coke, JimS

Yep - I've got an 8.1m, 3-camber sail, which at one time was my favorite sail (favorite in that it'd get me moving when nothing else would), but it was an absolute beast to handle. I could probably count on one hand, the number of times I successfully completed anything resembling a planing jibe with it. I finally concluded that it just wasn't fun to wrestle with that monster, which was when I made my 'no larger than 6.0' personal decree. I suspect that today's 7.0 sails are probably a lot more manageable than the old 8.1, and I'd be willing to go there if I had to, but if I could keep it at 6.0 and below, I'd be very happy to do so! It sure sounds like a foil has the potential to do that.

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ZeroVix said..

Paducah said..

ZeroVix said..
This post has become an avenue to cry. "I don't like foiling", "free ride sailing is faster"..... ADD or lack of focus? The OP wants to know if he can expand his time on the water on a lake in marginal conditions with a foil. The answer is yes. If you are too old, don't want to learn something new, stubborn and just out of shape. No, forget foiling. He is not in the Gorge, Bay area or constant wind areas. I hope you get that. It is a freaking lake with crappy wind. Period.

fwiw, a skilled local in his early 70s picked up foiling with no problem. Age really isn't a limit unless one wants to use that as an excuse. Many of the foilers where I live are in their 50s, 60s and that includes me.

The "but is it faster than windsurfing" thing is what kept so many of us from trying it in the first place. I remember getting my first rides and realizing, if you are asking if it's faster than windsurfing, you are asking the wrong question. Not that it can't be fast but there are so many other aspects of foiling as mentioned by so many of us above.

Affirming ZeroVix's point, a younger member of our group lives in the mountains a couple of hours north. His local lake is essentially a power plant cooling lake. The lake is small and winds about as gusty and variable as any location possible. He recently got his first foil and board and just loves it for all the reasons we've mentioned. Previously, he'd quite often have to drive an hour or two to get to a bigger lake in hopes of steadier and stronger wind. He's now having a blast in his own back yard.

I was referring being too old that you can barely walk and more sarcastic after some of the discouragements. I see more guys in their 60's and 70's foiling that would do nothing. That group is having more fun than anyone. Retired, going out every day and having a blast in light winds. Smaller board, lighter sail, smaller boom/mast, easy cruising.... I actually met a guy some time ago that was 83 (with hearing aid) that went out foiling. The reference being in shape is that you have to pump sometimes if the wind isn't cooperating. Learn to pump efficiently and those gust will be no problem. And you have to be willing to learn something new.

No worries, pretty sure we are on the same page - sorry if it came off as a difference of opinion. But there are those out there who may have thought about foiling and said to themselves, "but, I'm too old." I've seen comments before like, "I'm 55 but not sure about foiling, etc." I just wanted to put those concerns to rest.

Again, thanks for succinctly stating in comments here what so many of us feel.

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CoreAS said..
2:42 on the video windsurfer and myself windfoiling.

Wind was 15 mph, we are both having fun so everyone has choices!

a) 8.5, board and fin
b) 5.0, board and foil

The main difference its difficult to do 100% planning gybes or duck gybes on a 8.5

When windsurfing in lighter winds there is always the schlog factor, carrying big/heavy sails, sail drag etc but with wind foil you are always moving and having fun, the sensation of going off the wind on a foil equals doing coke, JimS

... ok, foiling is great ... but why keep claiming superiority?

Sure, in the video you sort of manage to go the same speed of a recreational sailor. He is clearly not riding fast, or with the right asset, and any decent slalom sailor in those conditions would pass you by.

And really ... are you telling people that dragging a foil on a beach with a one meter plus mast attached to its bottom, plus all the associated problems with water level and obstacles when you start sailing, is less cumbersome than carrying a board with a large sail and 40 cm fin?

Judging by what has happened in the San Francsico Bay Area this year, where wind foil basically disappeared, everybody is on wing foil, I don't think that is the case. Of all the people I know who bought a foil in the last 4 years, I see two foiling regularly, if not exclusively, one very sporadically. Everybody else dropped it to return to windsurf or use wings.

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duzzi said..

CoreAS said..
2:42 on the video windsurfer and myself windfoiling.

Wind was 15 mph, we are both having fun so everyone has choices!

a) 8.5, board and fin
b) 5.0, board and foil

The main difference its difficult to do 100% planning gybes or duck gybes on a 8.5

When windsurfing in lighter winds there is always the schlog factor, carrying big/heavy sails, sail drag etc but with wind foil you are always moving and having fun, the sensation of going off the wind on a foil equals doing coke, JimS

... ok, foiling is great ... but why keep claiming superiority?

Sure, in the video you sort of manage to go the same speed of a recreational sailor. He is clearly not riding fast, or with the right asset, and any decent slalom sailor in those conditions would pass you by.

And really ... are you telling people that dragging a foil on a beach with a one meter plus mast attached to its bottom, plus all the associated problems with water level and obstacles when you start sailing, is less cumbersome than carrying a board with a large sail and 40 cm fin?

Judging by what has happened in the San Francsico Bay Area this year, where wind foil basically disappeared, everybody is on wing foil, I don't think that is the case. Of all the people I know who bought a foil in the last 4 years, I see two foiling regularly, if not exclusively, one very sporadically. Everybody else dropped it to return to windsurf or use wings.

You're spoiled for wind.

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Faff said..

You're spoiled for wind.

No kidding! For me, the hole I'm trying to fill is that 10-15mph range, which is a *strong* day at the local puddle. By the time the wind reaches 16-17mph, I can be pretty comfortably planing on my 125l with 6.0 sail and "dagger fin". (but 16-17+ just about never happens inland for me, and when it does it's associated with tropical systems working their way inland, which are so gusty as to be about un-sailable - it rapidly vacillates between lulls and back-winded overpowering gusts.)

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duzzi said..

CoreAS said..
2:42 on the video windsurfer and myself windfoiling.

Wind was 15 mph, we are both having fun so everyone has choices!

a) 8.5, board and fin
b) 5.0, board and foil

The main difference its difficult to do 100% planning gybes or duck gybes on a 8.5

When windsurfing in lighter winds there is always the schlog factor, carrying big/heavy sails, sail drag etc but with wind foil you are always moving and having fun, the sensation of going off the wind on a foil equals doing coke, JimS

... ok, foiling is great ... but why keep claiming superiority?

Sure, in the video you sort of manage to go the same speed of a recreational sailor. He is clearly not riding fast, or with the right asset, and any decent slalom sailor in those conditions would pass you by.

And really ... are you telling people that dragging a foil on a beach with a one meter plus mast attached to its bottom, plus all the associated problems with water level and obstacles when you start sailing, is less cumbersome than carrying a board with a large sail and 40 cm fin?

Judging by what has happened in the San Francsico Bay Area this year, where wind foil basically disappeared, everybody is on wing foil, I don't think that is the case. Of all the people I know who bought a foil in the last 4 years, I see two foiling regularly, if not exclusively, one very sporadically. Everybody else dropped it to return to windsurf or use wings.

Who said anything about superiority? it clearly states which kit you can choose to have fun.

the video is proof that you can either choose a 8.5 sail and windsurf or a 5.0 sail and foil in the same winds, and yes we are going roughly the same speed (although I can point higher and gybe quicker while staying on a constant plane).

I get told all the time how windsurfing is quicker but that depends on the wind speed.

I also wing (have done for 2 years) so I choose my foil gear to the conditions I am riding in for that day, if I lived in an area with constant cross shore winds and logo high swell I would have my wave kit out as well.

Faff, With regards to constant wind, I just moved to Florida and yes they have very constant winds but before that I was in Dallas for 20 years on a man made lake where it was 10 gusting 25 so I know all about sh!t winds, the wind foil saved the windsurfing community from going extinct.

Be serious, the video does not prove anything, except a competent sailor can pass a old, heavy, windsurfer not nearly his skills.
There is NOT a 3 meter sail difference!
Mostly 1.5 to 2. But choosing a full on race sail for windsurf vs a powerful wave sail for foil....it can be 3 meters.
Reality.....if I choose ..correctly..a 5 meter sail and my 1150 foil, I can fully plane and go faster on a 7 meter freeride sail WS.
Foilboard is 122 liters.
Windsurf board 100-109 liters.
Breeze is 11-17.
Foil get's up sooner, WS zips by.
Foil goes upwind higher and lower, except for max gusts when angles are close.
At true 11, neither get's up.
At 14, foil goes.
At 16, WS goes.
So, if gusts of 14....choose foil! With 7 meter sail.
Or ride lightwind slalom 130+ liter and 8.5.

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LeeD said..
Be serious, the video does not prove anything, except a competent sailor can pass a old, heavy, windsurfer not nearly his skills.
There is NOT a 3 meter sail difference!
Mostly 1.5 to 2. But choosing a full on race sail for windsurf vs a powerful wave sail for foil....it can be 3 meters.
Reality.....if I choose ..correctly..a 5 meter sail and my 1150 foil, I can fully plane and go faster on a 7 meter freeride sail WS.
Foilboard is 122 liters.
Windsurf board 100-109 liters.
Breeze is 11-17.
Foil get's up sooner, WS zips by.
Foil goes upwind higher and lower, except for max gusts when angles are close.
At true 11, neither get's up.
At 14, foil goes.
At 16, WS goes.
So, if gusts of 14....choose foil! With 7 meter sail.
Or ride lightwind slalom 130+ liter and 8.5.

It's no coincidence that you and duzzi are from San Fran, it must be the most righteous area of windsurfers on the planet.
If I said the windsurfer is on a blue sail you guys would argue it's red but with zero evidence.It's laughable!

Laughable are your assumptions.
One video does not "prove" anything, except you are lighter and much more skilled than the windsurfer you chose in that video.
Both Duzzi and I agree that foiling goes better in extreme marginal breezes, 7-13.
But, our biggest boards are around 111 in volume, biggest sails around 7.5.
Plenty of big dudes here on Seabreeze plane in "7-13" with 150 liter boards and 8+ sails.
I sold my 150 RRD this summer, used once with 8.3 and 50 cm fin.
I'd rather foil with a 6 meter sail and 1150 foil because it's one less board to carry, 2 booms, 2 sails, and one more long mast.

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LeeD said..
Laughable are your assumptions.
One video does not "prove" anything, except you are lighter and much more skilled than the windsurfer you chose in that video.
Both Duzzi and I agree that foiling goes better in extreme marginal breezes, 7-13.
But, our biggest boards are around 111 in volume, biggest sails around 7.5.
Plenty of big dudes here on Seabreeze plane in "7-13" with 150 liter boards and 8+ sails.
I sold my 150 RRD this summer, used once with 8.3 and 50 cm fin.
I'd rather foil with a 6 meter sail and 1150 foil because it's one less board to carry, 2 booms, 2 sails, and one more long mast.

Perfect example I'm 200lb/90kg on a 5.0 and the windsurfer is 72kg on a 8.5. Once again you know nothing
It was a 10 second clip on a foil review video and it eats you guys up because we would run circles around you on a foil.

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CoreAS said.. It's no coincidence that you and duzzi are from San Fran, it must be the must righteous area of windsurfers on the planet.
If I said the windsurfer is on a blue sail you guys would argue it's red but with zero evidence.It's laughable!

^^^ Gold

I think some dudes fail to take into consideration their fin skills are probably way better than their foil skills - which may account for them not discovering all the benefits of foiling vs finning.

The point is no one wants to mow the lawn on a big 150L fin board and 8.5m sail anymore when you can be on a 5m/ 100L freeride foil going faster. About the same speed as freestyle boards as long as it's not nuking. But its not about speed. Foiling in 10-15kts with some 0.5-1m windswell is like windsurfing logo high days. Except I make every gybe and catch twice as many waves. There is something very special the way you can turn and go in almost any direction and sail transitions are amazing on the foil. You don't have to be a good windsurfer to look like a great foiler.
And then you don't even need to be able to windsurf to wing foil maybe that's why it's more popular like how kiting was easier to become good at compared to windsurfing

Core as, looked at video again.
No way windsurfer is 25 lbs lighter than you.
I foiled over 100 days, so know the difference in speed between the 2.

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LeeD said..
Be serious, the video does not prove anything, except a competent sailor can pass a old, heavy, windsurfer not nearly his skills.
There is NOT a 3 meter sail difference!
Mostly 1.5 to 2. But choosing a full on race sail for windsurf vs a powerful wave sail for foil....it can be 3 meters.
Reality.....if I choose ..correctly..a 5 meter sail and my 1150 foil, I can fully plane and go faster on a 7 meter freeride sail WS.
Foilboard is 122 liters.
Windsurf board 100-109 liters.
Breeze is 11-17.
Foil get's up sooner, WS zips by.
Foil goes upwind higher and lower, except for max gusts when angles are close.
At true 11, neither get's up.
At 14, foil goes.
At 16, WS goes.
So, if gusts of 14....choose foil! With 7 meter sail.
Or ride lightwind slalom 130+ liter and 8.5.

Unless it's choppy... Big WS gear in chop is downright unpleasant.