In chop, and hi wind, do you choose a "big WS board"?

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LeeD said..
In chop, and hi wind, do you choose a "big WS board"?

Chop and swell in low wind.

Then ride a Fanatic Shark 145.

Easy guys - I don't want to be the cause of a flame war here. I appreciate everyone's perspective, to include the Hell-Yeah's and the Maybe-Not-So-Much's - this isn't a life-altering decision for me, but it's enough of an investment that I want to carefully consider whether it's a smart thing for my environment/situation. I have leaned a lot from hearing the varying viewpoints on that. But please let's not let an otherwise productive discussion devolve into flames. One of the reasons I registered for and posted on this forum was that in reading through other posts, it was clearly a congenial and helpful crowd.

I think I am going to give it a go. I'm not looking for ultimate speed, nor am I anticipating 'flying' all the time, but my recent re-introduction to windsurfing has really gotten the juices flowing again, and anything that helps me get back into sailing with some frequency, and to spend more time on the water, is a good thing IMHO. In the end, it may or may not work out for me, but it seems like a reasonable thing to give a try! (for whatever definition of 'reasonable' we board-heads seem to rationalize to ourselves, LoL.)

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LeeD said..
Then ride a Fanatic Shark 145.

I'd rather foil with a smaller board and sail.

Don't worry. Just some grumpy dudes. Where are you located (country) and what gear are you thinking about? I think you will not regret making the move over to the mile high club.

That's the problem w/ the vast majority of windsurfers being old men these days - we all get a bit grumpy sometimes, and we've all reached the age where we give far less of a $hit about what others think of us, LoL. :-)

I live in Blacksburg, VA (GO HOKIES! ;-), in the US. I used to live on the other side of the state (the side with a coast - I now live on the side with hills), so getting to the coast was far less of an ordeal back then than it is now. I sailed about 1/2 dozen times locally after moving here 20 years ago, and just lost the love for it (inland). I continued to make occasional trips to the coast, and still loved sailing in steady winds there, though I hadn't made any trips in the past 10+ years - until just a few weeks ago when my son and I made a trip down to the Outer Banks, and I dragged a van full of sailing gear along with us - to his combined amazement and consternation. The flame has been reignited!! (The son, while he mostly enjoyed it, wasn't as overwhelmingly enthusiastic as I hoped he'd be, but he had one day of gentle beginner wind before a day of pretty solid 20mph winds, so it was a big skills gap for him to overcome - we spent a lot of time walking him back upwind that day!)

I'm going to try to get back down to the Rodanthe/Salvo/Avon area for a few days before Thanksgiving again for some more sailing (Wind Gods permitting - if they haven't blown their lungs out over the past week or so - it's been seriously windy down there for a week+ now! Some overwash, too, unfortunately...). Anyway, I'm hoping I can find a used board/foil setup while I'm down there - whether via consignment or end-of-year demo/rental sell-off, or such. I trust that if I'm dealing with a reputable shop, they'd set me up on something appropriate - the overwhelming advice here has been a low aspect ratio foil, with the exact board choice being less critical (albeit not too small or narrow, and with a mast track closer to the foil mast than farther...) I'm fortunate to be a lightweight, so that should also help open some options on boards. But, if I have any questions, I won't hesitate to run options by you guys here - everyone has been extremely helpful and informative, and I've really appreciated the varying perspectives. If this all comes to pass, I'm going to have to make do with my current collection of sails for a while, though I could see myself picking up something in the 7.0 range at some point this coming year, if foiling ends up appealing to me.

I'm still a little skeptical about foiling taking over my life, or about choosing to foil when I can be comfortably planing, jumping, jibing, etc on my regular boards, but that's from the perspective of a guy who's never foiled before, and who lives for the rare days when I can get out on my 8'2 board and go wild. (I'll be the grumpy old guy for a moment - ain't a one of you sons of guns could convince me there's ever been a better bump-n-jump board made than the 71l Seatrend ATV! ;-)

So, that's my story, my location, and my current mindset...

Are you looking to foil on Smith Mountain Lake? You should have a few used/stores in the OBX area. And now that the OBX event is over, might find something interesting (not that it actually included foiling), but guys were bringing up gear to sell. I know that OceanAir carries Fanatic gear; would be nice to find a used/demo Fanatic Stingray with tuttle/track system. More reasonable priced items in your area will include Slingshot. You shouldn't have issues with used gear (2k). You should be able to secure a decent used foil board, aluminum low aspect foil and sail. Just got be be patient.

I live within 1/2 hr of a smaller lake - Claytor Lake. (I also keep a boat there, so am down there a fair bit.) I ski regularly with a friend up on SML, but I tried sailing up there a few times after moving to the area, and found the wind no different or better up there than at Claytor. Inland sailing just kinda sucks in general, so I'd rather drive 30 minutes for crappy wind than well over 60 minutes for the same crappy wind. :-)

What was the event at OBX, and when was that? Yes, I talked w/ someone at Ocean Air about them selling off their rental/demo boards, so am really hoping I can find something decent and within budget there. I think I can get away with just a board and foil to start with. My largest sail being a 6.0 (not entirely true - I have an 8.1, but it's a monster), I suspect I'd need something a little larger, if I feel like I'm going to really get into things, but one financial crisis at a time... ;-)

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CoreAS said..

LeeD said..
Laughable are your assumptions.
One video does not "prove" anything, except you are lighter and much more skilled than the windsurfer you chose in that video.
Both Duzzi and I agree that foiling goes better in extreme marginal breezes, 7-13.
But, our biggest boards are around 111 in volume, biggest sails around 7.5.
Plenty of big dudes here on Seabreeze plane in "7-13" with 150 liter boards and 8+ sails.
I sold my 150 RRD this summer, used once with 8.3 and 50 cm fin.
I'd rather foil with a 6 meter sail and 1150 foil because it's one less board to carry, 2 booms, 2 sails, and one more long mast.

Perfect example I'm 200lb/90kg on a 5.0 and the windsurfer is 72kg on a 8.5. Once again you know nothing
It was a 10 second clip on a foil review video and it eats you guys up because we would run circles around you on a foil.

You know, you are coming across a bit on the aggressive side.

We do know something, Lee more than I do. But talking for myself I regularly go out in the same spot where the F4 guys have been developing foils for half a decade. I know what a RACE foil can do, it is quite amazing, especially in marginal winds with 8.0-90 sails. And I used to race slalom, B-fleet, in a place where the A-fleet included US championship first to third place finishers.

So, no, a 90 Kg wind foiler with a 5.0 will not go faster than a 70 Kg windsurfer on a 8.5. I doubt either of you is doing more than 22-24 knots, and in the conditions shown on your video a A/B-fleet slalom sailor will just blow you away.

And before you say that speed is not everything, it is very true. It is not. The slowest of the bunch are wings, that, as I mentioned, have nonetheless basically made wind foils, and kites, disappear from much of the Bay Area water.

Another thing foiling has over finning is massive wind range.

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jims said..
ain't a one of you sons of guns could convince me there's ever been a better bump-n-jump board made than the 71l Seatrend ATV! ;-)

I had a larger one of those, 81l(?) 260cm long, fantastic b&j board. I replaced it with an F2 Axxis 262, and after that an Exocet Cross. I think the Exocet has evolved into a better board than the Seatrend, which leads me into foiling. Its a newish sport so the kit is improving all the time. Thats why I didnt buy into it straight away as I was on a budget and didnt want to spend money on something which would be improved upon in the following year. This is highlighted by CoreAS' video where the latest Slingshot Phantasm is faster than the Hover, and better at everything (he is a retailer after all)

Be careful when buying kit that it actually fits your needs. If you have a big lake to explore, a racier foil setup might be better to get around on. If its a small lake, a turnier board might be better. Also be careful that the foil matches the board with respect to footstrap and foil placement. If the foil is too far behind the straps it wont get on the foil very easily. Several locals are getting foils here, we can all see the benefits in light wind. 1 has bought a mismatch on kit and is struggling.

I bought my kit September this year. AHD Compact 83 & AFS W85 F1080 foil. Secondhand kit is rare these days and is sold quickly, so I jumped in feet first and bought new. I have Poole Harbour, UK, as my playground. Its a large area and I like to go fast. I cant be doing with low speed stuff & tricks. I might need a smaller front wing later, but it should see me through from beginner to the level I'm aiming for. Thats to drop the lower wind limit a couple of knots with my 8.5m and use the foil for when its choppier when on the fin in 15 knots wind its not so much fun. I doubt I will reach the top speeds of my largest fin board and 8.5m on a foil, but might get close on the 1 hour speeds.

Let me hook in on this thread for a minute.

First, to answer the original question: for me (95kgs) on my spot (gusty&choppy) foiling delivers big time. I've been into racing for a while, that allowed me to go out on the days no-one was going out on regular boards. We're talking 9.0/10.0 sail, formula board and high performance racefoil (in the 3,5k eu range). Relatively recently I've ditched that gear (because of everyone switching to IQ) and just focussed on freeriding. From 12ish knots I go out with my 4.9, 105L and 880cm2 foil, which is freeride/freestyle oriented. I use a smallish front wing mainly because I want speed for jumping, and because I dont need bigger wings to get going because its often gusty! I also have a 7.0 lying around which is good in the 8-10 knot range with the same foil and a bigger board, however, in that windrange I opt for the wing (5m) these days as its a lot less work to get going.

I think the main benefit of the foil for me is not its performance in the superduper low-end, but more on those gusty days, or when the winddirection is not good for my spot (offshore for example). Its the immense top-end of foiling kit which makes these conditions very fun, as I'm out with my 4.9 when people are finning with 7.8, but then when there's a 10 minute lull and everyone is slogging I'm doing circles around everyone. Same goes for the days where you're on and off the plane because its very gusty/lully, with the fin you're constantly working to stay on the plane and slogging and hoping you get a gust where you want to jibe so you can keep going etc. On the foil those days just feel like any other. Bring able to turn on a dime with really no negatives allows to stay where the gusts are much more consistently too.

I have recently got my hands on a little bigger wing (by no means as big as some of the others here are riding), a prototype 1280 Phantom (designed for wingfoiling) with an elongated fuselage for windfoiling, and I find myself grabbing that wing when the wind is more "consistent" meaning the lulls are shorter. It maybe offers a knot or 2 more low-end power, but if the lulls are really long it doesnt provide the same glide as the 880 and required me to pump through the lulls. In the right conditions it is awesome and very easy to ride though, making gliding through 360s a jiffy. Its also a lot more forgiving and I therefore in my mind the best compromise for beginners. I have also tried 1800 and 2200 surf wings on the same fuselage, but the diminishing returns are really present with that setup, as it gets up really early, but the usable range becomes really small because of the lack of glide. Maybe a large wing with a much flatter profile would solve that at least to some extend.

In my opinion, getting the most out of light airs with as little physical cost as possible requires quite specialised gear. If the wind is really consistent (like 7-9 knots and no gusts) you either need a very big sail (racing kit) or a very big frontwing (delivering constant power, something like CoreAS is riding). If you have the gusty conditions present on my spot (meaning the occasional 10-11 knot gust, and very long 7-8 knot lulls), I think something in the 7.0-7.5 range with a fast (read top-end potential) 1100-1400 sqcm foil and a 135/85 wide board would be the best "allround" bet for blasting this type of kit will get you up relatively early (although not as early as the other 2 options), but will carry enough speed & glide to get through the longer lulls compared to the really big front wing option.

With regards to speed: on an average powered up (but by no means overpowered; 15 ish knots average) beam reach on my freeride/freestyle kit trying to compete with a fellow surfer or powering up for an air i'm at around 45-50 kph. Thats around 24-26 knots. Because my spot is often quite choppy the freeriders here dont go that fast across the wind, even if the wind is consistent. Ofcourse with big wings you're not gonna get those speeds, but if you opt for such a foil thats not your objective at all. Just pointing out that freeride / freestyle foiling kit can easily keep up with the average freerider / slowish slalomrider in choppy conditions if you have the balls to let it rip, doesnt even take really specialised gear. Flat water & consistent wind is a different story ofcourse, but not many of us live on Bonaire.

Going for a speedrun is a different matter too, my top speeds on a downwind run is just above 30 knots with this setup, while I've gotten the same speeds on freeride boards in the past, and faster on slalom kit in the same conditions.

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CoreAS said..
2:42 on the video windsurfer and myself windfoiling.

Wind was 15 mph, we are both having fun so everyone has choices!

a) 8.5, board and fin
b) 5.0, board and foil

The main difference its difficult to do 100% planning gybes or duck gybes on a 8.5

When windsurfing in lighter winds there is always the schlog factor, carrying big/heavy sails, sail drag etc but with wind foil you are always moving and having fun, the sensation of going off the wind on a foil equals doing coke, JimS

Yeah but that windsurf board looks a older longer narrower board. An 8.5m Cheetah would be more suited to a 80-85cm wide board for light winds. I use an old board (2003) with my Ezzy Lion 8.5m, just 125l, but its 80cm wide, 235cm long and has a wide 57.3cm tail ofo.
You are using the latest Slingshot foil which you said you have had 23mph out of, the older Hover did just 20 mph. Both are slow. They arent fast foils.
I can plane out of gybes in 15mph winds. I dont duck gybe anything.
I wouldnt fancy launching in a shorebreak with a foil. Or sail in shallow water. Hit the bottom and you could break the nuts/mountings in the fuselage and then thats trouble. Cross thread a fin bolt and you can replace it cheaply. Low tide in Poole Harbour I'll be using my fin board.

This thread seems to have turned into a discussion about which is the best. I'm going to use foils to compliment my fin boards. I've posted 55 session on the GPS site with my 8.5m. Slowest is 19.9 knots for the 10 second average. Fastest 24.77. On my foil kit, I'll be happy if I reach 22. Top speed isnt my main aim but dont want to chug around, its making the best out of the conditions.

If you want to compare speeds:
Poole Harbour in a choppy southerly 15 knots average wind gusting 20. Not quick speeds as it wasnt much good for that as it as so choppy.
Today was the first time I have seen all 3 sail at the same time on different kit.

Garry on the foil, been doing it nearly 3 years and still improving. He is usually is quicker than the other 2 on a fin, by about 1 knot.
Bob & Danny have switched to proper slalom kit in the last 2 years and both improving.

Garry 24.56 knots 10s average.
www.gps-foilsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=user&val=366151&uid=18265&spotid=598

Bob 26.55 knots 10s average.
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/?mnu=user&val=366141&uid=24325&spotid=598

Danny 26.36 knots 10s average.
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/?mnu=user&val=366146&uid=23796

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PhilUK said..

CoreAS said..
2:42 on the video windsurfer and myself windfoiling.

Wind was 15 mph, we are both having fun so everyone has choices!

a) 8.5, board and fin
b) 5.0, board and foil

The main difference its difficult to do 100% planning gybes or duck gybes on a 8.5

When windsurfing in lighter winds there is always the schlog factor, carrying big/heavy sails, sail drag etc but with wind foil you are always moving and having fun, the sensation of going off the wind on a foil equals doing coke, JimS

Yeah but that windsurf board looks a older longer narrower board. An 8.5m Cheetah would be more suited to a 80-85cm wide board for light winds. I use an old board (2003) with my Ezzy Lion 8.5m, just 125l, but its 80cm wide, 235cm long and has a wide 57.3cm tail ofo.
You are using the latest Slingshot foil which you said you have had 23mph out of, the older Hover did just 20 mph. Both are slow. They arent fast foils.
I can plane out of gybes in 15mph winds. I dont duck gybe anything.
I wouldnt fancy launching in a shorebreak with a foil. Or sail in shallow water. Hit the bottom and you could break the nuts/mountings in the fuselage and then thats trouble. Cross thread a fin bolt and you can replace it cheaply. Low tide in Poole Harbour I'll be using my fin board.

This thread seems to have turned into a discussion about which is the best. I'm going to use foils to compliment my fin boards. I've posted 55 session on the GPS site with my 8.5m. Slowest is 19.9 knots for the 10 second average. Fastest 24.77. On my foil kit, I'll be happy if I reach 22. Top speed isnt my main aim but dont want to chug around, its making the best out of the conditions.

If you want to compare speeds:
Poole Harbour in a choppy southerly 15 knots average wind gusting 20. Not quick speeds as it wasnt much good for that as it as so choppy.
Today was the first time I have seen all 3 sail at the same time on different kit.

Garry on the foil, been doing it nearly 3 years and still improving. He is usually is quicker than the other 2 on a fin, by about 1 knot.
Bob & Danny have switched to proper slalom kit in the last 2 years and both improving.

Garry 24.56 knots 10s average.
www.gps-foilsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=user&val=366151&uid=18265&spotid=598

Bob 26.55 knots 10s average.
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/?mnu=user&val=366141&uid=24325&spotid=598

Danny 26.36 knots 10s average.
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/?mnu=user&val=366146&uid=23796

No one was mentioning speeds?

I said "wind was 15mph and we were both having fun"

for the OP he could see the choices, either 8.5 sail or 5.0. For that given wind strength.

I weigh 18 kg more and using a 3.5 meter smaller sail. Maybe the OP sees value in that.if so great!
Slingshot have never marketed or designed foils for racing there are clearly a free foil. (BTW I have an F4 foil that I've got 27.2 knots but that's not what I prefer to ride now)

the slingshot ptm 926 HA wing I recently got 21.2 mph using a 5.0 wave sail in 12-13mph wind, it's not about the top speed, you factor in my weight the wind speed and sail size and then you have a choice between big windsurfing kit and mow the lawn sailing, or smaller more efficient foiling kit and maybe that will push you to try new things?

Select to expand quote

CoreAS said..

PhilUK said..

CoreAS said..
2:42 on the video windsurfer and myself windfoiling.

Wind was 15 mph, we are both having fun so everyone has choices!

a) 8.5, board and fin
b) 5.0, board and foil

The main difference its difficult to do 100% planning gybes or duck gybes on a 8.5

When windsurfing in lighter winds there is always the schlog factor, carrying big/heavy sails, sail drag etc but with wind foil you are always moving and having fun, the sensation of going off the wind on a foil equals doing coke, JimS

Yeah but that windsurf board looks a older longer narrower board. An 8.5m Cheetah would be more suited to a 80-85cm wide board for light winds. I use an old board (2003) with my Ezzy Lion 8.5m, just 125l, but its 80cm wide, 235cm long and has a wide 57.3cm tail ofo.
You are using the latest Slingshot foil which you said you have had 23mph out of, the older Hover did just 20 mph. Both are slow. They arent fast foils.
I can plane out of gybes in 15mph winds. I dont duck gybe anything.
I wouldnt fancy launching in a shorebreak with a foil. Or sail in shallow water. Hit the bottom and you could break the nuts/mountings in the fuselage and then thats trouble. Cross thread a fin bolt and you can replace it cheaply. Low tide in Poole Harbour I'll be using my fin board.

This thread seems to have turned into a discussion about which is the best. I'm going to use foils to compliment my fin boards. I've posted 55 session on the GPS site with my 8.5m. Slowest is 19.9 knots for the 10 second average. Fastest 24.77. On my foil kit, I'll be happy if I reach 22. Top speed isnt my main aim but dont want to chug around, its making the best out of the conditions.

If you want to compare speeds:
Poole Harbour in a choppy southerly 15 knots average wind gusting 20. Not quick speeds as it wasnt much good for that as it as so choppy.
Today was the first time I have seen all 3 sail at the same time on different kit.

Garry on the foil, been doing it nearly 3 years and still improving. He is usually is quicker than the other 2 on a fin, by about 1 knot.
Bob & Danny have switched to proper slalom kit in the last 2 years and both improving.

Garry 24.56 knots 10s average.
www.gps-foilsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=user&val=366151&uid=18265&spotid=598

Bob 26.55 knots 10s average.
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/?mnu=user&val=366141&uid=24325&spotid=598

Danny 26.36 knots 10s average.
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/?mnu=user&val=366146&uid=23796

No one was mentioning speeds?

I said "wind was 15mph and we were both having fun"

for the OP he could see the choices, either 8.5 sail or 5.0. For that given wind strength.

I weigh 18 kg more and using a 3.5 meter smaller sail. Maybe the OP sees value in that.if so great!
Slingshot have never marketed or designed foils for racing there are clearly a free foil. (BTW I have an F4 foil that I've got 27.2 knots but that's not what I prefer to ride now)

the slingshot ptm 926 HA wing I recently got 21.2 mph using a 5.0 wave sail in 12-13mph wind, it's not about the top speed, you factor in my weight the wind speed and sail size and then you have a choice between big windsurfing kit and mow the lawn sailing, or smaller more efficient foiling kit and maybe that will push you to try new things?

The fact you included that clip in your video overtaking the other sailor like that was highlighting speeds.
Comparing yourself against another who I reckon isnt anywhere near as proficient is meaningless.
Kit choice to match your aims is important.
I can get my windsurfing kit planing in 15 mph without pumping. I dont like pumping, bad back.
For my foil, once I've improved, I'll use it with a 7.5m I reckon, 1m smaller than with a fin board. Thats what everyone here uses.
Small sails require pumping in low windspeeds. Quite a lot from what I've seen.
For me top speed isnt everything either, but I wouldn't want slow foils.

For jims his 6m might require a low aspect foil if he buys a old slalom board, which is fine as he says top speed isnt an aim, but its worth bearing in mind they are slow.

Select to expand quote

PhilUK said..

CoreAS said..

PhilUK said..

CoreAS said..
2:42 on the video windsurfer and myself windfoiling.

Wind was 15 mph, we are both having fun so everyone has choices!

a) 8.5, board and fin
b) 5.0, board and foil

The main difference its difficult to do 100% planning gybes or duck gybes on a 8.5

When windsurfing in lighter winds there is always the schlog factor, carrying big/heavy sails, sail drag etc but with wind foil you are always moving and having fun, the sensation of going off the wind on a foil equals doing coke, JimS

Yeah but that windsurf board looks a older longer narrower board. An 8.5m Cheetah would be more suited to a 80-85cm wide board for light winds. I use an old board (2003) with my Ezzy Lion 8.5m, just 125l, but its 80cm wide, 235cm long and has a wide 57.3cm tail ofo.
You are using the latest Slingshot foil which you said you have had 23mph out of, the older Hover did just 20 mph. Both are slow. They arent fast foils.
I can plane out of gybes in 15mph winds. I dont duck gybe anything.
I wouldnt fancy launching in a shorebreak with a foil. Or sail in shallow water. Hit the bottom and you could break the nuts/mountings in the fuselage and then thats trouble. Cross thread a fin bolt and you can replace it cheaply. Low tide in Poole Harbour I'll be using my fin board.

This thread seems to have turned into a discussion about which is the best. I'm going to use foils to compliment my fin boards. I've posted 55 session on the GPS site with my 8.5m. Slowest is 19.9 knots for the 10 second average. Fastest 24.77. On my foil kit, I'll be happy if I reach 22. Top speed isnt my main aim but dont want to chug around, its making the best out of the conditions.

If you want to compare speeds:
Poole Harbour in a choppy southerly 15 knots average wind gusting 20. Not quick speeds as it wasnt much good for that as it as so choppy.
Today was the first time I have seen all 3 sail at the same time on different kit.

Garry on the foil, been doing it nearly 3 years and still improving. He is usually is quicker than the other 2 on a fin, by about 1 knot.
Bob & Danny have switched to proper slalom kit in the last 2 years and both improving.

Garry 24.56 knots 10s average.
www.gps-foilsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=user&val=366151&uid=18265&spotid=598

Bob 26.55 knots 10s average.
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/?mnu=user&val=366141&uid=24325&spotid=598

Danny 26.36 knots 10s average.
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/?mnu=user&val=366146&uid=23796

No one was mentioning speeds?

I said "wind was 15mph and we were both having fun"

for the OP he could see the choices, either 8.5 sail or 5.0. For that given wind strength.

I weigh 18 kg more and using a 3.5 meter smaller sail. Maybe the OP sees value in that.if so great!
Slingshot have never marketed or designed foils for racing there are clearly a free foil. (BTW I have an F4 foil that I've got 27.2 knots but that's not what I prefer to ride now)

the slingshot ptm 926 HA wing I recently got 21.2 mph using a 5.0 wave sail in 12-13mph wind, it's not about the top speed, you factor in my weight the wind speed and sail size and then you have a choice between big windsurfing kit and mow the lawn sailing, or smaller more efficient foiling kit and maybe that will push you to try new things?

The fact you included that clip in your video overtaking the other sailor like that was highlighting speeds.
Comparing yourself against another who I reckon isnt anywhere near as proficient is meaningless.
Kit choice to match your aims is important.
I can get my windsurfing kit planing in 15 mph without pumping. I dont like pumping, bad back.
For my foil, once I've improved, I'll use it with a 7.5m I reckon, 1m smaller than with a fin board. Thats what everyone here uses.
Small sails require pumping in low windspeeds. Quite a lot from what I've seen.
For me top speed isnt everything either, but I wouldn't want slow foils.

For jims his 6m might require a low aspect foil if he buys a old slalom board, which is fine as he says top speed isnt an aim, but its worth bearing in mind they are slow.

So you didn't read my text, you just watched a very short clip and took your own narrative from it, OK got it.

The video was the closest I had on hand showing a 5.0 sailing against the 8.5. (15mph is 13.03 knots). and from that has spawned a debate over my and the windsurfer body weight, true sail sizes, who's fastest and the windsurfers skill set??
As the late Mark Brandon Chopper Reed would say "Get with the program boys".

Back to foiling...
I have sailed Poole harbor a lot back in the 90's (I'm from Portland) anywhere on the south coast is excellent for windsurfing but even die hard's are trying a hand with lighter winds and foils, hence why Simon P and Scott both had the fastest speeds at Weymouth speed week. going 26 knots in 10 knots of wind, now that's impressive.

Select to expand quote

CoreAS said..

PhilUK said..

CoreAS said..

PhilUK said..

CoreAS said..
2:42 on the video windsurfer and myself windfoiling.

Wind was 15 mph, we are both having fun so everyone has choices!

a) 8.5, board and fin
b) 5.0, board and foil

The main difference its difficult to do 100% planning gybes or duck gybes on a 8.5

When windsurfing in lighter winds there is always the schlog factor, carrying big/heavy sails, sail drag etc but with wind foil you are always moving and having fun, the sensation of going off the wind on a foil equals doing coke, JimS

Yeah but that windsurf board looks a older longer narrower board. An 8.5m Cheetah would be more suited to a 80-85cm wide board for light winds. I use an old board (2003) with my Ezzy Lion 8.5m, just 125l, but its 80cm wide, 235cm long and has a wide 57.3cm tail ofo.
You are using the latest Slingshot foil which you said you have had 23mph out of, the older Hover did just 20 mph. Both are slow. They arent fast foils.
I can plane out of gybes in 15mph winds. I dont duck gybe anything.
I wouldnt fancy launching in a shorebreak with a foil. Or sail in shallow water. Hit the bottom and you could break the nuts/mountings in the fuselage and then thats trouble. Cross thread a fin bolt and you can replace it cheaply. Low tide in Poole Harbour I'll be using my fin board.

This thread seems to have turned into a discussion about which is the best. I'm going to use foils to compliment my fin boards. I've posted 55 session on the GPS site with my 8.5m. Slowest is 19.9 knots for the 10 second average. Fastest 24.77. On my foil kit, I'll be happy if I reach 22. Top speed isnt my main aim but dont want to chug around, its making the best out of the conditions.

If you want to compare speeds:
Poole Harbour in a choppy southerly 15 knots average wind gusting 20. Not quick speeds as it wasnt much good for that as it as so choppy.
Today was the first time I have seen all 3 sail at the same time on different kit.

Garry on the foil, been doing it nearly 3 years and still improving. He is usually is quicker than the other 2 on a fin, by about 1 knot.
Bob & Danny have switched to proper slalom kit in the last 2 years and both improving.

Garry 24.56 knots 10s average.
www.gps-foilsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=user&val=366151&uid=18265&spotid=598

Bob 26.55 knots 10s average.
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/?mnu=user&val=366141&uid=24325&spotid=598

Danny 26.36 knots 10s average.
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/?mnu=user&val=366146&uid=23796

No one was mentioning speeds?

I said "wind was 15mph and we were both having fun"

for the OP he could see the choices, either 8.5 sail or 5.0. For that given wind strength.

I weigh 18 kg more and using a 3.5 meter smaller sail. Maybe the OP sees value in that.if so great!
Slingshot have never marketed or designed foils for racing there are clearly a free foil. (BTW I have an F4 foil that I've got 27.2 knots but that's not what I prefer to ride now)

the slingshot ptm 926 HA wing I recently got 21.2 mph using a 5.0 wave sail in 12-13mph wind, it's not about the top speed, you factor in my weight the wind speed and sail size and then you have a choice between big windsurfing kit and mow the lawn sailing, or smaller more efficient foiling kit and maybe that will push you to try new things?

The fact you included that clip in your video overtaking the other sailor like that was highlighting speeds.
Comparing yourself against another who I reckon isnt anywhere near as proficient is meaningless.
Kit choice to match your aims is important.
I can get my windsurfing kit planing in 15 mph without pumping. I dont like pumping, bad back.
For my foil, once I've improved, I'll use it with a 7.5m I reckon, 1m smaller than with a fin board. Thats what everyone here uses.
Small sails require pumping in low windspeeds. Quite a lot from what I've seen.
For me top speed isnt everything either, but I wouldn't want slow foils.

For jims his 6m might require a low aspect foil if he buys a old slalom board, which is fine as he says top speed isnt an aim, but its worth bearing in mind they are slow.

So you didn't read my text, you just watched a very short clip and took your own narrative from it, OK got it.

The video was the closest I had on hand showing a 5.0 sailing against the 8.5. (15mph is 13.03 knots). and from that has spawned a debate over my and the windsurfer body weight, true sail sizes, who's fastest and the windsurfers skill set??
As the late Mark Brandon Chopper Reed would say "Get with the program boys".

Back to foiling...
I have sailed Poole harbor a lot back in the 90's (I'm from Portland) anywhere on the south coast is excellent for windsurfing but even die hard's are trying a hand with lighter winds and foils, hence why Simon P and Scott both had the fastest speeds at Weymouth speed week. going 26 knots in 10 knots of wind, now that's impressive.

Hmm, ok.

A kiter was fastest, 2 in fact, 28.75 knots. 10 knots average maybe, but gusts were 13-14. Both Scotty (UK slalom champion this year) and Simon are talented sailors, so their speeds arent really representative of the average sailor, and most wouldn't achieve their speeds.
They are also given top class equipment to use. It does show what you can do with talent and ?6,000+ though.
www.gps-foilsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=user&val=368758&uid=4276&spotid=681

www.weymouthspeedweek.com/index.php/results/results-2021/197-all-runs-tuesday-12th

Back to the real world of 'average' sailors, my foiling is going ok, 10-12 hours so far and improving all the time.
I might get up foiling quicker on a low aspect foil, but they would be slow and I could get bored after a while. I'm not aiming for 26 knots in '10 knots' wind as I dont have the talent and budget, but reckon 22 knots 10s average in up to 14 knots average wind with what I've bought is a decent aim.

www.gps-foilsurfing.com/?mnu=user&val=370377&uid=2708

It would be easy to waste a lot of money on not buying the correct kit for your needs.

I just priced up Simon's kit. GBP 8255 RRP.

In defense of one of my best mates it takes more than $$ of kit to go 26knts in 10-13knts of wind as you say, even though on the course it went as low as 7-8 knts

Simon is a hardcore sailor that puts in more time on water than anyone I know.... you can't buy talent and graft.

Select to expand quote

jims said..

I'm still a little skeptical about foiling taking over my life

Time will tell. Most of us lost that battle. :)

Select to expand quote

CoreAS said..

PhilUK said..

CoreAS said..
2:42 on the video windsurfer and myself windfoiling.

Wind was 15 mph, we are both having fun so everyone has choices!

a) 8.5, board and fin
b) 5.0, board and foil

The main difference its difficult to do 100% planning gybes or duck gybes on a 8.5

When windsurfing in lighter winds there is always the schlog factor, carrying big/heavy sails, sail drag etc but with wind foil you are always moving and having fun, the sensation of going off the wind on a foil equals doing coke, JimS

Yeah but that windsurf board looks a older longer narrower board. An 8.5m Cheetah would be more suited to a 80-85cm wide board for light winds. I use an old board (2003) with my Ezzy Lion 8.5m, just 125l, but its 80cm wide, 235cm long and has a wide 57.3cm tail ofo.
You are using the latest Slingshot foil which you said you have had 23mph out of, the older Hover did just 20 mph. Both are slow. They arent fast foils.
I can plane out of gybes in 15mph winds. I dont duck gybe anything.
I wouldnt fancy launching in a shorebreak with a foil. Or sail in shallow water. Hit the bottom and you could break the nuts/mountings in the fuselage and then thats trouble. Cross thread a fin bolt and you can replace it cheaply. Low tide in Poole Harbour I'll be using my fin board.

This thread seems to have turned into a discussion about which is the best. I'm going to use foils to compliment my fin boards. I've posted 55 session on the GPS site with my 8.5m. Slowest is 19.9 knots for the 10 second average. Fastest 24.77. On my foil kit, I'll be happy if I reach 22. Top speed isnt my main aim but dont want to chug around, its making the best out of the conditions.

If you want to compare speeds:
Poole Harbour in a choppy southerly 15 knots average wind gusting 20. Not quick speeds as it wasnt much good for that as it as so choppy.
Today was the first time I have seen all 3 sail at the same time on different kit.

Garry on the foil, been doing it nearly 3 years and still improving. He is usually is quicker than the other 2 on a fin, by about 1 knot.
Bob & Danny have switched to proper slalom kit in the last 2 years and both improving.

Garry 24.56 knots 10s average.
www.gps-foilsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=user&val=366151&uid=18265&spotid=598

Bob 26.55 knots 10s average.
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/?mnu=user&val=366141&uid=24325&spotid=598

Danny 26.36 knots 10s average.
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/?mnu=user&val=366146&uid=23796

No one was mentioning speeds?

I said "wind was 15mph and we were both having fun"

for the OP he could see the choices, either 8.5 sail or 5.0. For that given wind strength.

I weigh 18 kg more and using a 3.5 meter smaller sail. Maybe the OP sees value in that.if so great!
Slingshot have never marketed or designed foils for racing there are clearly a free foil. (BTW I have an F4 foil that I've got 27.2 knots but that's not what I prefer to ride now)

the slingshot ptm 926 HA wing I recently got 21.2 mph using a 5.0 wave sail in 12-13mph wind, it's not about the top speed, you factor in my weight the wind speed and sail size and then you have a choice between big windsurfing kit and mow the lawn sailing, or smaller more efficient foiling kit and maybe that will push you to try new things?

But, no, the choice is not btw 5.0 foil and 8.5 windsurf. Your video shows two sailors going around the pond at sub-20 knots of speed ... that is typical for a slingshot, but it is completely irrelevant if you want to reach any conclusion about relative light air performance of foil vs fin.

And we know the answer already: 7-13 knots a foil (with a big sail) has the advantage.

Anyway ... foil is good, windsurf is good, wings are good: have fun everybody!

Select to expand quote

duzzi said..

CoreAS said..

PhilUK said..

CoreAS said..
2:42 on the video windsurfer and myself windfoiling.

Wind was 15 mph, we are both having fun so everyone has choices!

a) 8.5, board and fin
b) 5.0, board and foil

The main difference its difficult to do 100% planning gybes or duck gybes on a 8.5

When windsurfing in lighter winds there is always the schlog factor, carrying big/heavy sails, sail drag etc but with wind foil you are always moving and having fun, the sensation of going off the wind on a foil equals doing coke, JimS

Yeah but that windsurf board looks a older longer narrower board. An 8.5m Cheetah would be more suited to a 80-85cm wide board for light winds. I use an old board (2003) with my Ezzy Lion 8.5m, just 125l, but its 80cm wide, 235cm long and has a wide 57.3cm tail ofo.
You are using the latest Slingshot foil which you said you have had 23mph out of, the older Hover did just 20 mph. Both are slow. They arent fast foils.
I can plane out of gybes in 15mph winds. I dont duck gybe anything.
I wouldnt fancy launching in a shorebreak with a foil. Or sail in shallow water. Hit the bottom and you could break the nuts/mountings in the fuselage and then thats trouble. Cross thread a fin bolt and you can replace it cheaply. Low tide in Poole Harbour I'll be using my fin board.

This thread seems to have turned into a discussion about which is the best. I'm going to use foils to compliment my fin boards. I've posted 55 session on the GPS site with my 8.5m. Slowest is 19.9 knots for the 10 second average. Fastest 24.77. On my foil kit, I'll be happy if I reach 22. Top speed isnt my main aim but dont want to chug around, its making the best out of the conditions.

If you want to compare speeds:
Poole Harbour in a choppy southerly 15 knots average wind gusting 20. Not quick speeds as it wasnt much good for that as it as so choppy.
Today was the first time I have seen all 3 sail at the same time on different kit.

Garry on the foil, been doing it nearly 3 years and still improving. He is usually is quicker than the other 2 on a fin, by about 1 knot.
Bob & Danny have switched to proper slalom kit in the last 2 years and both improving.

Garry 24.56 knots 10s average.
www.gps-foilsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=user&val=366151&uid=18265&spotid=598

Bob 26.55 knots 10s average.
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/?mnu=user&val=366141&uid=24325&spotid=598

Danny 26.36 knots 10s average.
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/?mnu=user&val=366146&uid=23796

No one was mentioning speeds?

I said "wind was 15mph and we were both having fun"

for the OP he could see the choices, either 8.5 sail or 5.0. For that given wind strength.

I weigh 18 kg more and using a 3.5 meter smaller sail. Maybe the OP sees value in that.if so great!
Slingshot have never marketed or designed foils for racing there are clearly a free foil. (BTW I have an F4 foil that I've got 27.2 knots but that's not what I prefer to ride now)

the slingshot ptm 926 HA wing I recently got 21.2 mph using a 5.0 wave sail in 12-13mph wind, it's not about the top speed, you factor in my weight the wind speed and sail size and then you have a choice between big windsurfing kit and mow the lawn sailing, or smaller more efficient foiling kit and maybe that will push you to try new things?

But, no, the choice is not btw 5.0 foil and 8.5 windsurf. Your video shows two sailors going around the pond at sub-20 knots of speed ... that is typical for a slingshot, but it is completely irrelevant if you want to reach any conclusion about relative light air performance of foil vs fin.

And we know the answer already: 7-13 knots a foil (with a big sail) has the advantage.

Anyway ... foil is good, windsurf is good, wings are good: have fun everybody!

Pond

You still haven't provided a single thread of any evidence, just all mouth and nothing to back anything up!

jims, OBX Wind is an annual event (I think annual). Guys up and down the coast go there and swap gear too. Slalom, Freestyle, Long Distance, Light wind.. racing.

Here is day 5.

Select to expand quote

CoreAS said..

duzzi said..

CoreAS said..

PhilUK said..

CoreAS said..
2:42 on the video windsurfer and myself windfoiling.

Wind was 15 mph, we are both having fun so everyone has choices!

a) 8.5, board and fin
b) 5.0, board and foil

The main difference its difficult to do 100% planning gybes or duck gybes on a 8.5

When windsurfing in lighter winds there is always the schlog factor, carrying big/heavy sails, sail drag etc but with wind foil you are always moving and having fun, the sensation of going off the wind on a foil equals doing coke, JimS

Yeah but that windsurf board looks a older longer narrower board. An 8.5m Cheetah would be more suited to a 80-85cm wide board for light winds. I use an old board (2003) with my Ezzy Lion 8.5m, just 125l, but its 80cm wide, 235cm long and has a wide 57.3cm tail ofo.
You are using the latest Slingshot foil which you said you have had 23mph out of, the older Hover did just 20 mph. Both are slow. They arent fast foils.
I can plane out of gybes in 15mph winds. I dont duck gybe anything.
I wouldnt fancy launching in a shorebreak with a foil. Or sail in shallow water. Hit the bottom and you could break the nuts/mountings in the fuselage and then thats trouble. Cross thread a fin bolt and you can replace it cheaply. Low tide in Poole Harbour I'll be using my fin board.

This thread seems to have turned into a discussion about which is the best. I'm going to use foils to compliment my fin boards. I've posted 55 session on the GPS site with my 8.5m. Slowest is 19.9 knots for the 10 second average. Fastest 24.77. On my foil kit, I'll be happy if I reach 22. Top speed isnt my main aim but dont want to chug around, its making the best out of the conditions.

If you want to compare speeds:
Poole Harbour in a choppy southerly 15 knots average wind gusting 20. Not quick speeds as it wasnt much good for that as it as so choppy.
Today was the first time I have seen all 3 sail at the same time on different kit.

Garry on the foil, been doing it nearly 3 years and still improving. He is usually is quicker than the other 2 on a fin, by about 1 knot.
Bob & Danny have switched to proper slalom kit in the last 2 years and both improving.

Garry 24.56 knots 10s average.
www.gps-foilsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=user&val=366151&uid=18265&spotid=598

Bob 26.55 knots 10s average.
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/?mnu=user&val=366141&uid=24325&spotid=598

Danny 26.36 knots 10s average.
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/?mnu=user&val=366146&uid=23796

No one was mentioning speeds?

I said "wind was 15mph and we were both having fun"

for the OP he could see the choices, either 8.5 sail or 5.0. For that given wind strength.

I weigh 18 kg more and using a 3.5 meter smaller sail. Maybe the OP sees value in that.if so great!
Slingshot have never marketed or designed foils for racing there are clearly a free foil. (BTW I have an F4 foil that I've got 27.2 knots but that's not what I prefer to ride now)

the slingshot ptm 926 HA wing I recently got 21.2 mph using a 5.0 wave sail in 12-13mph wind, it's not about the top speed, you factor in my weight the wind speed and sail size and then you have a choice between big windsurfing kit and mow the lawn sailing, or smaller more efficient foiling kit and maybe that will push you to try new things?

But, no, the choice is not btw 5.0 foil and 8.5 windsurf. Your video shows two sailors going around the pond at sub-20 knots of speed ... that is typical for a slingshot, but it is completely irrelevant if you want to reach any conclusion about relative light air performance of foil vs fin.

And we know the answer already: 7-13 knots a foil (with a big sail) has the advantage.

Anyway ... foil is good, windsurf is good, wings are good: have fun everybody!

Pond

You still haven't provided a single thread of any evidence, just all mouth and nothing to back anything up!

Yes, that is going around the pond, in the sense that you are both happily and joyously freeriding. Looks like fun!

But what evidence do you need? We all seem to agree that in variable light wind, call it 7-13, a foil has an advantage, maybe even for a 70 Kg pilot. With the caveat that if you go below 10 knots a foil will require technique, and/or big sails, to go.

But just a notch up, average 13 knots, force 4 (11-16 knots) is VERY good for a 70 Kg, or any windsurfer, really. Force 4 is described as numerous white caps, tree branches moving. I would be on a 6.5-6.8 powered up with no problem.

Select to expand quote

ZeroVix said..
jims, OBX Wind is an annual event (I think annual). Guys up and down the coast go there and swap gear too. Slalom, Freestyle, Long Distance, Light wind.. racing.

Here is day 5.

Oh, man, wish I could've made it down for that! Looks like a lot of fun (and some good conditions!!), and I'm sure there would have been some used equipment so choose from!

I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for an announcement for the next one. :-)

Select to expand quote

duzzi said..

We all seem to agree that in variable light wind, call it 7-13, a foil has an advantage, maybe even for a 70 Kg pilot. With the caveat that if you go below 10 knots a foil will require technique, and/or big sails, to go.

But just a notch up, average 13 knots, force 4 (11-16 knots) is VERY good for a 70 Kg, or any windsurfer, really. Force 4 is described as numerous white caps, tree branches moving. I would be on a 6.5-6.8 powered up with no problem.

I think duzzi has identified my desired sweet spot for foiling. I am cursed to live in an area where 7-13 would be considered pretty good wind. (There is a sailboat club at my local lake, and I know they'd be *absolutely thrilled* with a day of winds in the 7-13 range - they're more typically out in 4-6 mph winds most of the time. On those 'good' days where the winds are in the 10kt range - which aren't common, but do happen every few weeks, at least in fall/winter/spring - I would love to be out on the water windsurfing. Truth is, though, I just don't bother any more. If I could get some enjoyable sailing in on those type of days, and if foiling enabled that, my time on the water would increase dramatically. For the truly rare days were we get winds at 15mph+, I would envision happily hopping back onto one of my regular boards, and enjoy the planing conditions. (But the truth is, even when we get winds in the 15mph range here inland, they're typically still very up & down, so it's possible the foil might still come into play on those days.) On trips to the coast, as long as the wind is 6.0'able on my regular board, I just can't see myself foiling, but then again, I haven't yet been on one, so who knows.

But, it's those light/moderate inland days that I'm really hoping to open up opportunities for.

Select to expand quote

jims said.. I am cursed to live in an area where 7-13 would be considered pretty good wind. (There is a sailboat club at my local lake, and I know they'd be *absolutely thrilled* with a day of winds in the 7-13 range - they're more typically out in 4-6 mph winds most of the time.

Testify. I chuckled when I read "extreme marginal winds 7-13" higher up in another post. In the summer, we're lucky to get that once every two weeks.

"When you fly and everyone is stopped.
The magic of the foil " -tintingwen

www.facebook.com/gwenael.gourlay.3/videos/1040953823144055

One thing that's clear from all of these foiling videos is that I'm gonna have to re-learn how to jibe. I'm a throw-the-sail-then-switch-the-feet, strap-to-strap kind of guy. I'm sure any orthopedist would cringe, but I frequently either have a foot in the wrong (old) strap, or a foot in both front straps when exiting my jibe, LoL. Looks like a far more disciplined approach is needed on foils.

Foiling is all about BALANCE, and every movement precise and measured.
Not at all like windsurfing.