7 is far from "perfect".
Straight knees and hip is not good.
Slightly bent is better.
Front arm is not horizontal in a good stance.
Slight hunched shoulder is good, as is level head.
Arms should be fairly straight, but a slight bend to allow absorption and adjustment.
Shoulder width is a good starting point, and good for ideal conditions, which we seldom get.

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LeeD said..
7 is far from "perfect".

Im not saying a 7 stance is perfect, I'm saying a perfect 7 stance is the most efficient stance.

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LeeD said..
Straight knees and hip is not good.
Slightly bent is better.

Slightly bent at the hips is not better, its a little bit more controlable, which is better in some situations, as straight is in others. I have touched in this quite extensively in my comment.

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LeeD said..
Front arm is not horizontal in a good stance.

I've never said anything about horizontality of the front arm, I've said it should be straight, which still holds.

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LeeD said..
Slight hunched shoulder is good, as is level head.

To be honest, I'm not yet sure about whether hunched is good or not. I often ride a little hunched with a more level head, as you say. In one of my latest coached training sessions we had a debate on this, with a PWA slalom pro (who are so way out of my league in terms of skill I wouldnt dare arguing against them) taking the shoulders arched back side of the discussion when talking about efficiency. However, this is hard for me to implement in my own technique, and as long as the weight is maximally in the harness I dont feel much difference. I think arching shoulders back can be a helpful tool to learn to extend yourself from the kit and put your weight in the harness where it belongs.

With 20" lines having your shoulders hunched is bad in any case for that would mean your arms are even further apart on the boom and your center of mass is even closer to the rig than the 20" lines already make it be.

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LeeD said..
Arms should be fairly straight, but a slight bend to allow absorption and adjustment.

You dont have to absorb much of anything on a foil, especially when freeriding. In terms of adjustment: If your front hand is next to the harnesslines you shouldnt need to ever have to bend it as its on the rotation point of the sail. If there's a gust you cant handle the sail opens automatically, if the gust is too much you can shift your back hand back to compensate.

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LeeD said..
Shoulder width is a good starting point, and good for ideal conditions, which we seldom get.

I've touched on this here and in my previous comment, the backhand position should be variable depending on power. Shoulderwidth is the starting point and should be the most favorable position most of the time during the session, otherwise your harnesslines aren't setup right.

Don't take it personal, SEVERAL other posters referred to the 7 stance, not just you.

7 stance. We used to refer to it as "carbon body." It was recommended for slalom on most points of sail. We used to strongly recommend the carbon body for going upwind on formula gear. Going downwind on formula usually required a very loose or rubbery body, but the really fast guys used carbon body in outboard footstraps for downwind, too. Not the chicken strap(s). They were scary fast downwind.

I could never stay in the outside footstraps downwind until I got the Mike's Lab L10. Something about that design made it easy to stay in the outside footstraps on all points of sail. Crazy fast. Too bad fin formula racing has all but disappeared.

So far I never use the carbon body on the foil, but some people do. I think the racers do on their upwind, just like on formula.

Had a good session yesterday. Wind was 10-15. I debated on using a 6.0 or 6.8, but chose the 6.0. So I raised the boom up 2 inches higher, but wasn't happy with the height adjustment. Boom was neck high, felt out of control, so lowered it to shoulder height and felt great and back in control again. This time I flew longer and higher than before. Did a gopro and will edit and post. The angle of the gopro is hard to detect flying height. Legs aren't sore at all today from yesterday's session. Looking forward to the next session!

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MagicRide said..
Had a good session yesterday. Wind was 10-15. I debated on using a 6.0 or 6.8, but chose the 6.0. So I raised the boom up 2 inches higher, but wasn't happy with the height adjustment. Boom was neck high, felt out of control, so lowered it to shoulder height and felt great and back in control again. This time I flew longer and higher than before. Did a gopro and will edit and post. The angle of the gopro is hard to detect flying height. Legs aren't sore at all today from yesterday's session. Looking forward to the next session!

You will notice the guys that have shorter lines do not usually run higher boom - see the photos 2Keen posted. The Sailworks guy looks to be running pretty low boom & Wyatt is not running that short of lines & his boom is mid pocket which is on the low side for his height. So that is probably why you can't run your boom any higher... it effectively makes your lines even shorter...

Wyatt is 6'3" with monkey arms.
Maybe 7" + wingspan wider than me.

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LeeD said..
Wyatt is 6'3" with monkey arms.
Maybe 7" + wingspan wider than me.

That explains why you can run 22" lines. Wyatt's lines appear to me to be about 26" would guess, but i can ask. At 6'3" the boom in that pic looks quite low compared to common recommended boom heights for foiling. Shows If you are skilled you can do what you want!

Betcha Wy runs 30" lines.
Seems all the good freestylers use long lines.
Also, I stated long ago, my harness straps are super loose, allowing more than a 2" gap from my fat belly when hooked in.

But so far, no foiler bothers with a leash, at least around SF Bay.
Wingdingers for sure start with both wing and board leashes.
Stands to reason wing SUP should consider board leash.

MagicRide, I would be REALLY dubious of using a leash to stop the board from taking off on you. I think the benefits are very low, but the risks are REALLY big.
Given that a conventional board will move away faster than a foil would, I would think that a leash setup on conventional gear would be more beneficial. Nobody I have ever seen uses one.
I have never found a conventional board with sail attached will go far from me unless it's nuclear conditions (35 knots+) and then the board and sail can get picked up and flipped. That has never happened with a foil as the foil is just too big and heavy. So I would be thinking that it's a current or water movement that has moved the board away from you? Possibly a wave? I'd find it almost impossible to believe a foil and sail could outrun a person swimming for any considerable distance (say more than 20m). If you can't swim 20m, then you should get in the pool.
I'm just thinking about the tangle factor with a leash and I think it's really high. Lots of things it could tangle with - footstraps, harness lines, boom clamp, wrapping around the mast base multiple times etc. If you had the leash stretched to max and the board took off, you could potentially get dragged under the board or sail. And you'd really want a quick release for it.
Hmmm, I'd say get in the pool and don't take the risk with the leash.

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martyj4 said..
MagicRide, I would be REALLY dubious of using a leash to stop the board from taking off on you. I think the benefits are very low, but the risks are REALLY big.
Given that a conventional board will move away faster than a foil would, I would think that a leash setup on conventional gear would be more beneficial. Nobody I have ever seen uses one.
I have never found a conventional board with sail attached will go far from me unless it's nuclear conditions (35 knots+) and then the board and sail can get picked up and flipped. That has never happened with a foil as the foil is just too big and heavy. So I would be thinking that it's a current or water movement that has moved the board away from you? Possibly a wave? I'd find it almost impossible to believe a foil and sail could outrun a person swimming for any considerable distance (say more than 20m). If you can't swim 20m, then you should get in the pool.
I'm just thinking about the tangle factor with a leash and I think it's really high. Lots of things it could tangle with - footstraps, harness lines, boom clamp, wrapping around the mast base multiple times etc. If you had the leash stretched to max and the board took off, you could potentially get dragged under the board or sail. And you'd really want a quick release for it.
Hmmm, I'd say get in the pool and don't take the risk with the leash.

I have given up on the leash option. I was thinking of picking up a small drift sock and put it on the boom, but not sure I want to do that.

The more I think about it, I think after I fell off the board, the sail flipped over again off a wave and took the board down stream faster. I use to be on the swim team when I was younger, so swimming fast is easy. Swimming in a 6mm wetsuit with booties, harness and hydration pack on slows me down a tad.

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MagicRide said..

martyj4 said..
MagicRide, I would be REALLY dubious of using a leash to stop the board from taking off on you. I think the benefits are very low, but the risks are REALLY big.
Given that a conventional board will move away faster than a foil would, I would think that a leash setup on conventional gear would be more beneficial. Nobody I have ever seen uses one.
I have never found a conventional board with sail attached will go far from me unless it's nuclear conditions (35 knots+) and then the board and sail can get picked up and flipped. That has never happened with a foil as the foil is just too big and heavy. So I would be thinking that it's a current or water movement that has moved the board away from you? Possibly a wave? I'd find it almost impossible to believe a foil and sail could outrun a person swimming for any considerable distance (say more than 20m). If you can't swim 20m, then you should get in the pool.
I'm just thinking about the tangle factor with a leash and I think it's really high. Lots of things it could tangle with - footstraps, harness lines, boom clamp, wrapping around the mast base multiple times etc. If you had the leash stretched to max and the board took off, you could potentially get dragged under the board or sail. And you'd really want a quick release for it.
Hmmm, I'd say get in the pool and don't take the risk with the leash.

I have given up on the leash option. I was thinking of picking up a small drift sock and put it on the boom, but not sure I want to do that.

The more I think about it, I think after I fell off the board, the sail flipped over again off a wave and took the board down stream faster. I use to be on the swim team when I was younger, so swimming fast is easy. Swimming in a 6mm wetsuit with booties, harness and hydration pack on slows me down a tad.

I sometimes fall of during a jibe for example if I miss the boom and my kit just keeps going for another 20-30m downwind before it actually crashes. Thats pretty much the one situation I end up far away from my kit haha.

Still, would indeed let off of the leash idea.

I would practice a bit of swimming with the windsurf outfit.
Booties cancel out kicking pretty much, so swim with arms or breaststroke.
A 30 sec effort usually does the trick.
I sail 100+ days a year wearing a 4/3 wetsuit and booties.

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MagicRide said..
Had a good session yesterday. Wind was 10-15. I debated on using a 6.0 or 6.8, but chose the 6.0. So I raised the boom up 2 inches higher, but wasn't happy with the height adjustment. Boom was neck high, felt out of control, so lowered it to shoulder height and felt great and back in control again. This time I flew longer and higher than before. Did a gopro and will edit and post. The angle of the gopro is hard to detect flying height. Legs aren't sore at all today from yesterday's session. Looking forward to the next session!

I thought we were tweaking your back pressure issue with the 6.8? (Which everyone showing pictures of 4.5s conveniently forgot...) Your earlier posts seemed to indicate you were pretty comfortable on your smaller sails.

What felt out of control? Don't worry about flying height.

Glad you had a good day.

Well here is my short little clip of the other day. I had loads of fun. I am wondering if I should set the mast step all the way back for less back foot pressure. I have 1/4 inch left to go all the way back. This is on a Naish 6.0 in about 10-14 mph winds.

Move straps back?
Move front wing forwards?
Lower boom?

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LeeD said..
Move straps back?
Move front wing forwards?
Lower boom?

Wing is in "C" position, which is farthest forward. I chose to go strapless for safety. Boom is shoulder height in the video, I should lower it more?

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MagicRide said..

LeeD said..
Move straps back?
Move front wing forwards?
Lower boom?

Wing is in "C" position, which is farthest forward. I chose to go strapless for safety. Boom is shoulder height in the video, I should lower it more?

I've had a lot stranger crashes without straps than with. Without straps you're more likely to land closer to the foil, because you cant stop the board from tilting away from you as well. Maybe put the front ones on there for stability, for those are the only ones really needed.

You should move your front foot a little more back in any case, you can clearly see that your backleg is more bent than the front one, the opposite is preferred. Right now you have to keep giving preassure to keep flying, the board should go flying on its own and require little preassure to stay down. If you're sailing with a slightly bent frontleg you'll be more stable aswell because you're more on top of the power.

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LeeD said..
Move straps back?
Move front wing forwards?
Lower boom?

Please ignore this post ?
It was made by a professional troll.

MagicRide, +1 on WoH's comments. Here's some screen caps of your front foot vs CoreAS. This is why your board is going plenty fast but just not releasing from the water. His front foot heel is all the way on to the white deck pad (and back foot halfway on!) while your front foot is completely in the blue and back foot having to be fully on the green to compensate.

Hey Magic, looks like your progression is going well. Keep at it. You will figure out the balance. i84 in C position is a common setting for most riders. One thing I noticed from your video is perhaps you are trying to horse the foil up into flight with insufficient speed. Make sure you rig a sail of such a size that you can pump up to a good reasonably fast plane on the board. I would say, board speed of a minimum of 14 mph. The foil will lift by itself. Heck, it might even lift too well, and you will have to press forward to keep it under control. I think your sail mast base setting is fine. All these issues are major fun to work through.

Looks like a nice mid-April day there on Klamath Lake. Warm air, cold water. We have that now, too, in the far eastern Gorge. I am still "stuck" in Florida, waiting for my doctor to "allow" me to fly home. She keeps saying, don't get on an airplane. Today is cold in central Florida: 63F. Heck, it is mid-70s today in eastern WA state.

Hi Magic

As WOH and Paducah have pointed out, there are a few tweaks to try out, but overall some nice flights there :)

I have a local guy here that I have been coaching and I think I know what's happening!

1. You are choking the foil lift by sitting in your harness (local guy does the exact same). I didn't hardly hook in and use my
harness for the first 3-4 months of learning, stay out of the harness lines (that will lighten the rig pressure you are putting on the board
and thus the foil front wing).

2. Get back to basics with learning to rig pump, it should be fairly easy as we are using smaller rigs than windsurfing.

3. I would put the front straps on (leave the rear straps off for now) you can curl your toes up under the front strap for lift.

4. You are using a "windsurfing stance" with your back foot all the way back like that, again by not hooking into the harness lines be nimble on your feet, you should be light on those tootsies.

Go to 15 seconds in on this video, this is one way to pump (out of the harness) arms a little extended , granted I have all 4 straps on, but my feet are in the right place, as I pump, get lift, get settled, get speed going and then hook in. As you get more experienced you can slide the front foot in the straps from a dead stand still and this will put pressure down on the front wing, but that's for another day.

Hi guys, thanks for the comments on the video! Forecast that day was 10-20 mph winds, but was about 12 mph when I was rigging, so I wasn't sure if the wind was going to increase or not. It ended up staying around that range, so I could have rigged a 6.8. Oh well, had fun anyway.

So when the wind was in the 10-12 range, I unhooked, pumped on plane and was up on foil in less wind with less board speed as well than when hooked in. When I was hooked in, on foil was when the winds were around 12-14, and I was able to pump a little while hooked in to get on plane and onto foil like in the video. Yes, I can see the foil being choked back from trying to get on foil when under powered, where I could unhook, pump on foil easier. I have experienced both of that on that day.

I think I need to bring my forward foot further down the board, so I can slide my back foot forward some like you have recommended. Of course not have the front footstrap as a guide, makes me have to use muscle memory to change my stance. I will probably mark where I need my front foot with a bright spay paint marking, so I will see it and plant my foot there everytime. The next good wind we have, I'll do another video, so you can see the progress.

MagicRide, Nice work you are gettin it! Rather than paint or a visual marker glue something you can feel with your feet. Like a strip of eva decking right where the front foot should go. In foiling even more than windsurfing, the board goes where you look. Keep you gaze out in front of you, way out. Keep charging and posting!

At the end of this short video for FINNING ; the advice is to push with hand not pull.
I assume that's true for FOILING???
Is anyone using a seat harness for foiling???

Another issue I'm having with foiling is, I can't seem to water start. Maybe psychologically, I think I have enough wind? When I do try to water start, the board acts all funny. Wondering if it's the foil doing this. I have zero issues water starting on my slapper board. I just stuff the board under me and hop on. Maybe I'm still thrown off on how little wind I need to get foiling and when I fall in the water, my natural response is to water start. But find I have to hop on and uphaul.

I use a loose seat harness, just like for finning.
Waterstart seems the same, never out of control. I put front foot just behind the sail mast base.
Usually, if it's an easy waterstart, I'm on the verge of OP and don't need to pump.

Thanks LeeD. Nice to know a seat harness is doable. Why loose? At the legs or at the hip or the hook belt.

Loose on both. Legs to allow a little uplift when hooked and looseness at belt to allow breathing.
But I windsurf set like that...slalom, jumping, and going out thru surf.