Note: Short harness lines will not allow you to sheet out. Length of arm is a variable too.

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LeeD said..
5'10" and use 22" lines.
My whole setup foiling is exactly the same as freeride windsurf setup. Slalom setup moves mast base 1.5" forward.
My wingspan is shorter than my height.
Slogging, my harness lines are 9" above my hook.

LeeD,

You have short harness lines like I do and you said your setup for foiling is the same for finning. How do you like the finning set up for foiling? Would you change it? Are you happy with it? Are you limited on what you can do on foil? And, just curious about your skill level in foiling?

Thanks!

Couple things.

1. Yes, if your boom is too low it tends to pull you DOWN into the board. This will kill your legs in short order. Get used to running a high boom. The wider the board, the higher the boom. In formula days we had our booms at eye level. Now with freeride foiling, I run mine at mouth level. Many foilers like collarbone level.

2. I also like short harness lines. If they are too long, you don't get any leverage on the boom, so what's the point? 22" seems to be a good length most of the time. I run adjustable Sailworks harness lines, and keep them at 22".

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MagicRide said..
I will have to watch those videos. So what I've experienced with the i84, is with big sails, it weights the nose more, so I need more back foot pressure, than with smaller sails. So I lean back more on larger sails, and lean back less with smaller ones.

Also watch video earlier submitted CoreAS (link below). He also had youtube video for i84. You could compare your setting to his setting. I would be very scared to put any leash since this would be dangerous.

think harness line length is quite personal. I am 185cm, used to use 26" lines for wave sailing but have shortened them to 24" for foiling. My boom is set high.
Obviously I am only hooked in when on the foil

If learning to foil I would be tempted to start with what you are familiar with then make minor changes as you feel necessary.

Nice to hear there are others who favor shorter harness lines. I agree on the smaller lines give you better leverage. I also feel shorter lines offer a responsive ride, and I enjoy the feedback I receive from that particular setup. Now this experience is mainly on finning boards, but very interested to see how this whole set up transitions over to foiling. So far so good, but I will try raising the boom a little and move the harness lines a little closer to each other to see how things feel. Now, my legs haven't hurt with the boom at shoulder height. My arms were real sore for some reason. Could be my grip was too tight and I wasn't relaxed as I would like to be. It's new for me, so I get nervous out their, and when I get nervous, my grip gets real tight. I will try to relax more. Over time, I'm sure that will happen.

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2keen said..

think harness line length is quite personal. I am 185cm, used to use 26" lines for wave sailing but have shortened them to 24" for foiling. My boom is set high.
Obviously I am only hooked in when on the foil

If learning to foil I would be tempted to start with what you are familiar with then make minor changes as you feel necessary.

Makes perfect sence! Thank you! You look very comfortable on the water as you have the foiling skill set down. Great video!

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SA_AL said..

MagicRide said..
I will have to watch those videos. So what I've experienced with the i84, is with big sails, it weights the nose more, so I need more back foot pressure, than with smaller sails. So I lean back more on larger sails, and lean back less with smaller ones.

Also watch video earlier submitted CoreAS (link below). He also had youtube video for i84. You could compare your setting to his setting. I would be very scared to put any leash since this would be dangerous.

Yes, excellent video as always. So, my mast base looks to be almost in the same spot as yours is. I noticed you back foot is in front of the rear straps. My back foot is right over the foil mast and my front foot is slightly more forward on the board than yours. Since I'm not using footstraps, I'm using my natural windsurfing foot stance to get me up on foil. So the only difference I see on foot work, is my feet are further apart from each other than yours.

I Have a question? Is your mast base to front foot strap the same distance on your foil board as it would be on your finning board? I measured out both my foil board where the front foot strap would be in relation to the mast base and then measured my bump n jump board distances and there almost the same.

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MagicRide said..
and my front foot is slightly more forward on the board than yours. Since I'm not using footstraps, I'm using my natural windsurfing foot stance to get me up on foil.

A lot of people first times out on a foil will try to get going with their front up by the mast because that sort of works planing. As a rule of thumb, having your front foot in front of the front strap position will inhibit the foil coming off the water. The more it is forward, the bigger the effect. If it's up by the mast, the board simply won't come off the water.

Try raising the boom a couple of inches - you can do this and not use the harness for a few minutes and make sure your front foot is no further forward than the front strap position. I think you're back leg will thank you.

From 2keen's video. His shoulder is forward, Boom at nose-ish level. Feet shoulder width apart.

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Paducah said..
you're back leg

ooof....

This was yesterday on the i84/42 wings in position B.

I changed my back foot position 3 times on this reach (center of back straps, in front of strap and in the back strap around the 5.35 mark) depending on how much foil drive and direction I needed to go, I use 26 cm lines.

We don't normally get many west winds (that makes a direct on shore launch into a right washing machine by a yacht club).

There was quite a bit of boat traffic so the wake from the boats would hit steel retaining walls along the lake, so we call that "voodoo chop" as the swell and nasty steep chop comes at you from unpredictable angles.

I was using a 5.8 (to get out through the launch area) but quickly realized a 5.0 or 4.5 would have been far better.

foiled roughly 3 miles upwind and the wind picked up even more (22+ knots) the only thing I could do was to sail off the wind and navigate the voodoo chop. Hardly hooked in most of the time until I hit a lull of around 14 knots.

Heck of a ride through, a solid 11 minute down winder!

Magic ride, I'm not a good foiler.
The 2 good freeride foilers I ride with exclusively foil, no windsurf, for 3+ years now and around 350 days of foiling.
I've been out 78 days, mostly short, 30-45 minute sessions.
In 7-17 mph breezes, we're pretty close with 5 meter sails, but both do 90% foiling jibes while I don't do ANY.
I'm doing planing jibes, maybe 70%, and manage to fall off one in 15 or so.
I also stared last year, at age 70.
Mike is 32, while Dom is 52, the two other guys.
SunsetSailboards is 43, but a superb learner of new sports. He could 360 and foil jibe before his 50th day. He was an advanced freestyle rider.

Love this SS foiling footage. We should be getting some good wind tomorrow and possibly later this afternoon. Can't wait to get out again. I will gopro my session and post. Then you guys can let me know how I'm doing.

What would be the best sails to use and for what wind rages roughly? My sails again are, Ezzy 6.8 Zeta, Naish 6.0 Alterain and Ezzy 5.2 Legacy. I'd be foiling as early as possible, SS Dialer 130L, I'm 175 pounds with i84 and 42 rear wing on a lake. I'm not going foiling anything over 18 mph for now. If it's more than 18, I'll take out my bump n jump board.

My foil kit does seem to scoot off downwind a bit faster than slappers. That kinda freaked me out the first couple of times, but I've always been able to catch up with it. Not really worried now.

Bigger board than what you slap with?
And you're older too.
Certainly lighter wind slapping can't drift downwind too fast.

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Paducah said..

MagicRide said..
I will have to watch those videos. So what I've experienced with the i84, is with big sails, it weights the nose more, so I need more back foot pressure, than with smaller sails. So I lean back more on larger sails, and lean back less with smaller ones.

Are you moving your mast base back and raising the boom on the bigger sails to compensate? For me, my boards feel the same whether it's an 8.0 or 4.7. Either comes off the water with the same effort and it's more of an unweight rather than pushing with back foot.

These guys are running 9s and 10s in ridiculously light air. They are still pretty forward. Look around 1:34. His back foot is actually in front of the back strap.

Thanks for being kind enough to entertain some of my thoughts.

Can some one help me vizualize WHY rasing the boom changes the balance? Why is boom height related to board width?

My slapper board is 115L, 65 wide. Blowing 10-12 as we speak. Looks good for foiling. Looks like 6.8 sail.

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MagicRide said..
My slapper board is 115L, 65 wide. Blowing 10-12 as we speak. Looks good for foiling. Looks like 6.8 sail.

Ditch the 22's ... don't use them slapping either. I am 5'11" use 30" monolines. the short line stance will inhibit progression on all fronts.

Take advice from Segler and 2Keen, but read all advice and remember we are all different.

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LeeD said..
Take advice from Segler and 2Keen, but read all advice and remember we are all different.

Do what you like, but unless you have unusually short arms or legs, you might listen to those whose business it is to give advice.

see:
TWS Pro center:

Jem Hall:

Guy Cribb: guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/Harness%20technique-%20Handbrake.pdf

Yeah, "experts" also say to learn water starting with back foot between front and rear straps.
They also blindly talk "new school" stance, but on THEIR slalom boards, use old school.
And they also say any sail that is 5+ years old is only for the trash bin, when we know any well designed sail newer than 1997 is equal to a 2020.

Shots fired?

I mean we all know you're an expert in everything windsurfing and foiling, but where else do you roughly put your feet when water starting? Regardless of the fear of derailing the thread I'm genuinely interested in this. And equal to? really? I mean I don't think you can seriously argue that incrementally sails haven't got better over the last 23 years? Sure, maybe over the last 10 those increments are pretty small but really?

Like I said in another thread, I think hoops did too, we need a LeeD subforum where we can just ask you advice. It's the goldmine of knowledge we all crave while in isolation.

Coupla dudes that look like they know what they are doing with short harness lines

In the TWS tuning video ( about harness line length for wave sailing) it says if you use short lines you are "bringing the sail over"..... well we are foiling not wavesailing. When freefoiling I my stance is more upright which by default would mean I need shorter lines for the sail to remain in the optimum position
Again I'm not saying use short lines, If your learning to foil use what your used to and go from there

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LeeD said..
Take advice from Segler and 2Keen, but read all advice and remember we are all different.

I wouldn't personally take advice from LeeD, allthough I do read it.

Shorter lines are fine, especially for freeriding its OK to use shorter lines. I've found relatively less difference in terms of performance between 28" and shorter lines than between 28" and longer lines, because stance is very similar. I feel lines can be too long depending on your technique, especially for upwind and light wind sailing because your stance will have to change. Shorter lines are more direct and therefore also have a smaller margin of error, and also slightly decrease power because of more sail heel.

That being said, a bit of personal background knowledge on linelength, and why I run 28" lines and think lines around that length (2" variance depensing on body of the rider) are more optimal than shorter or longer lines:
For me 28" was "short" back when I did a lot of slalom, I was regularly riding 34" lines. After a lot of training with / being trained by some pro's I've found that around 28" is optimal for practically everyone, with a slight variance depending on your stance and style. In this debate I'd call 28" average length lines, >28" are long lines, <28" are short lines.
In windsurfing (and especially foiling because there aren't things like chop and we're generally riding in way less wind) the most efficient stance is the "7" stance most of us probably have heard about before. The "7" stance can be summarised as having straight arms, hands shoulderwidth apart with the front hand right next to the harnessline and the backhand having the ability to move back in gusts to control the power, a straight frontleg (and often also backleg) and your upperbody directly above your frontleg without a bend at the hips. This "7" stance is the most optimal stance to keep your body stiff and hang your weight on your sail, a stiff body means an optimal powerdelivery from the sail to the boar, and therefore most power in light winds. For most bodytypes 28" lines allow to ride with that "7" stance perfectly.
Riding longer lines will mean you have to bend at the hips to be able to reach your boom. In terms of optimal efficiency this is a bad thing! However, bending at the hips increases control as it allows you to move your weight fore aft a little bit easier by moving your upperbody, without having to bend either of your legs. Riding a little longer lines is not a bad thing if conditions is rough, hence I lengthen my lines to 30" if overpowered while racing, or doing speedruns. Going much longer than 32" would mean your upperbody will start to stop being angled outward, but ends up being straight up, and therefore starts to loose part its function in terms of leverage over the sail due to less lever. On boards with a really narrow stance (like wave or freestyle), this matter is a little different, because the lateral distance between the footstraps and the mastfoot is 0 (when looking from the front), and the angle between the mast and rider is bigger. Therefore on a really tiny board even longer lines can work very well. Another variable which stanges this story is if you let go of the boom with the fronthan (and grab your harnesslines / uphaul instead), because in this scenario you can angle your upperbody, therefore "extending" your back arm you can keep the "ultimate" stiff body position, while bringing yourself even further out from the sail. I'm not sure which technique is better (longer lines + uphaul vs shorter lines + "7"), but both seem to work very well. I use both, depending on what the general conditions are during the day (and thus how ai've set up my kit).

Shorter lines dont change much in the stance, hence I said the performance difference is relatively minor compared to picking longer lines, however, with lines much shorter than 28" you're just closer to the boom than you absolutely need to be. You decrease your margin of error without increasing any performance. This is due to the distance from the boom to your shoulders. If you ride 28" (or around that mark with slight variance depending on body type) you can exactly ride with perfectly straight arms a shoulder width apart, meaning you can perfectly extend yourself as far away from the sail as possible without it costing the "7"-stance. If you ride shorter lines you'll only end up with a wider and wider grip on the boom which really doesnt bring you anything. Shorter lines than ~28" might make you feel more upright and increase your feeling of power, but in practice instead of becoming more upright yourself, you will end up heeling the sail over towards you more, while your body remains at the same angle to the board. Hence decreasing projected sailarea and therefore decreasing power.

People will probably start drawing diagrams now to prove me wrong; In the end if you're not pushing the maximum low end, nor the maximum high end of the range of your kit it doesnt really matter that much and you can happily keep riding whatever you were using before. If you want to get most range out of your kit, try on the water to keep your arms shoudlerwidth apart and completely straight with 22" lines, and you'll find you cant. Try extending your lines till the point you can and force yourself to ride your hands shoulderwidth apart, in the end you'll be grateful for it.

Edit: The reason I switched to 24" when I just started is because I felt not in control, this is because I was leaning out more than I could control with small muscle memory, my setup was not balanced and the foil was rather bad (back in 2016 foils werent as easy yet). Riding short lines in the beginning is very logical for it allows you to be more on top of the lift from the foil, increasing lateral stability. If you're beginning this can be reassuring, and if it is for you I'd definately keep using it until you're more comfortable, however in the end, switching to lines around the 28" mark will be more efficient, both in terms of control and power.

If you don't know a waterstart foot position besides rear foot between straps you are not worthy of discussion, because you won't open your eyes.
And using 20 year old sails must mean that sailor is much better than YOU, since he's handicapped by what you consider as outdated gear.

Whiteofheart,

Interesting when you were talking about you can't position your arms shoulder length apart and keep them straight with 22" lines. Never thought about that, because what I do naturally, is I spread my arms further than shoulder length apart on the boom to get them straight. Feels great that way, seems like I have good control over the boom that way, but that has always been my normal way of handling the boom with my arms straight, spread out farther than shoulder width apart.

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WhiteofHeart said..

LeeD said..
Take advice from Segler and 2Keen, but read all advice and remember we are all different.

I wouldn't personally take advice from LeeD, allthough I do read it.

Shorter lines are fine, especially for freeriding its OK to use shorter lines. I've found relatively less difference in terms of performance between 28" and shorter lines than between 28" and longer lines, because stance is very similar. I feel lines can be too long depending on your technique, especially for upwind and light wind sailing because your stance will have to change. Shorter lines are more direct and therefore also have a smaller margin of error, and also slightly decrease power because of more sail heel.

That being said, a bit of personal background knowledge on linelength, and why I run 28" lines and think lines around that length (2" variance depensing on body of the rider) are more optimal than shorter or longer lines:
For me 28" was "short" back when I did a lot of slalom, I was regularly riding 34" lines. After a lot of training with / being trained by some pro's I've found that around 28" is optimal for practically everyone, with a slight variance depending on your stance and style. In this debate I'd call 28" average length lines, >28" are long lines, <28" are short lines.
In windsurfing (and especially foiling because there aren't things like chop and we're generally riding in way less wind) the most efficient stance is the "7" stance most of us probably have heard about before. The "7" stance can be summarised as having straight arms, hands shoulderwidth apart with the front hand right next to the harnessline and the backhand having the ability to move back in gusts to control the power, a straight frontleg (and often also backleg) and your upperbody directly above your frontleg without a bend at the hips. This "7" stance is the most optimal stance to keep your body stiff and hang your weight on your sail, a stiff body means an optimal powerdelivery from the sail to the boar, and therefore most power in light winds. For most bodytypes 28" lines allow to ride with that "7" stance perfectly.
Riding longer lines will mean you have to bend at the hips to be able to reach your boom. In terms of optimal efficiency this is a bad thing! However, bending at the hips increases control as it allows you to move your weight fore aft a little bit easier by moving your upperbody, without having to bend either of your legs. Riding a little longer lines is not a bad thing if conditions is rough, hence I lengthen my lines to 30" if overpowered while racing, or doing speedruns. Going much longer than 32" would mean your upperbody will start to stop being angled outward, but ends up being straight up, and therefore starts to loose part its function in terms of leverage over the sail due to less lever. On boards with a really narrow stance (like wave or freestyle), this matter is a little different, because the lateral distance between the footstraps and the mastfoot is 0 (when looking from the front), and the angle between the mast and rider is bigger. Therefore on a really tiny board even longer lines can work very well. Another variable which stanges this story is if you let go of the boom with the fronthan (and grab your harnesslines / uphaul instead), because in this scenario you can angle your upperbody, therefore "extending" your back arm you can keep the "ultimate" stiff body position, while bringing yourself even further out from the sail. I'm not sure which technique is better (longer lines + uphaul vs shorter lines + "7"), but both seem to work very well. I use both, depending on what the general conditions are during the day (and thus how ai've set up my kit).

Shorter lines dont change much in the stance, hence I said the performance difference is relatively minor compared to picking longer lines, however, with lines much shorter than 28" you're just closer to the boom than you absolutely need to be. You decrease your margin of error without increasing any performance. This is due to the distance from the boom to your shoulders. If you ride 28" (or around that mark with slight variance depending on body type) you can exactly ride with perfectly straight arms a shoulder width apart, meaning you can perfectly extend yourself as far away from the sail as possible without it costing the "7"-stance. If you ride shorter lines you'll only end up with a wider and wider grip on the boom which really doesnt bring you anything. Shorter lines than ~28" might make you feel more upright and increase your feeling of power, but in practice instead of becoming more upright yourself, you will end up heeling the sail over towards you more, while your body remains at the same angle to the board. Hence decreasing projected sailarea and therefore decreasing power.

People will probably start drawing diagrams now to prove me wrong; In the end if you're not pushing the maximum low end, nor the maximum high end of the range of your kit it doesnt really matter that much and you can happily keep riding whatever you were using before. If you want to get most range out of your kit, try on the water to keep your arms shoudlerwidth apart and completely straight with 22" lines, and you'll find you cant. Try extending your lines till the point you can and force yourself to ride your hands shoulderwidth apart, in the end you'll be grateful for it.

Edit: The reason I switched to 24" when I just started is because I felt not in control, this is because I was leaning out more than I could control with small muscle memory, my setup was not balanced and the foil was rather bad (back in 2016 foils werent as easy yet). Riding short lines in the beginning is very logical for it allows you to be more on top of the lift from the foil, increasing lateral stability. If you're beginning this can be reassuring, and if it is for you I'd definately keep using it until you're more comfortable, however in the end, switching to lines around the 28" mark will be more efficient, both in terms of control and power.

Spot on. ... I can't run a perfect 7 stance with my preferred boom height & 30 lines but I can get close enough with straight arms at shoulder width. The 30's allow a little more bend in the knees for rough water sailing. If I want more efficiency I can always bump my boom up a bit & straighten my legs... or 28" work well also. I would not say anything to Magic if he were on 26" but I think if he takes the time to get used to longer lines, he will progress - not just foiling either. Most guys I see sailing 22" line have bent arms & wide grip - far from perfect 7 stance...

2Keen's photos prove there are other valid harness line settings besides "30"" for everyone.

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MagicRide said..
Whiteofheart,

Interesting when you were talking about you can't position your arms shoulder length apart and keep them straight with 22" lines. Never thought about that, because what I do naturally, is I spread my arms further than shoulder length apart on the boom to get them straight. Feels great that way, seems like I have good control over the boom that way, but that has always been my normal way of handling the boom with my arms straight, spread out farther than shoulder width apart.

My experience as an eternal intermediate windsurfer and beginner foiler:Finning: I used to run short lines because I felt I had more control. Then I realized that the control came from using my arms more than I needed. I decided to lengthen my lines and it feels more natural to me. I still tend to widen my arm spread when overpowered so I need to remind myself to commit to the harness and use the arms just to sheet in/out. When I commit to the harness I don't t need to spread my arms.

When I started windfoiling, I was using ridiculously short lines and it worked for me. Now I am using longer lines. I think that is because I am less afraid to foil faster so I load the harness way more than when I started (especially foiling upwind). I measured them today and the boom I use for small sails (4.2-5.8) have my adjustable lines set at 28 inches long. I am 185 cm tall or 6'1". The boom That I use for bigger sails has the race lines because I used them extremely long to slog.