Yesterday, I got bucked off my board and it started drifting away faster than I could swim. Luckily, I caught up to it. What are your thoughts on attaching a long leash to the board and my harness so when I fall off, it's not going to get away. Or is this idea too dangerous for getting trapped up around the board and stuck under the sail?

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MagicRide said..
Yesterday, I got bucked off my board and it started drifting away faster than I could swim. Luckily, I caught up to it. What are your thoughts on attaching a long leash to the board and my harness so when I fall off, it's not going to get away. Or is this idea too dangerous for getting trapped up around the board and stuck under the sail?

Rule 1: Don't let go of the boom
Rule 2: Refer to rule 1

Seriously, it not only keeps you close to the board but is the only thing that keeps the board flipping up with the foil towards you. This is the one great advantage we have over other foiling sports. If you let go of the boom in big conditions (say, like 85 l. slapper and 4.7) you run the serious risk of your gear going downwind faster than you can swim. I know it happens sometimes that we let loose but please make the conscious effort.

Now to the board leash - other than issues of tripping over it, it getting snagged on foot strap velcro, wrapped around you, you have that big mastie thing sticking up in the middle of the board and we tend to go around it from both directions (tack and jibe). That alone makes a leash unworkable.

Get in swimming shape.
Foil slows downwind drifting, usually lighter wind, so much safer than losing your windsurf board

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Paducah said..

MagicRide said..
Yesterday, I got bucked off my board and it started drifting away faster than I could swim. Luckily, I caught up to it. What are your thoughts on attaching a long leash to the board and my harness so when I fall off, it's not going to get away. Or is this idea too dangerous for getting trapped up around the board and stuck under the sail?

Rule 1: Don't let go of the boom
Rule 2: Refer to rule 1

Seriously, it not only keeps you close to the board but is the only thing that keeps the board flipping up with the foil towards you. This is the one great advantage we have over other foiling sports. If you let go of the boom in big conditions (say, like 85 l. slapper and 4.7) you run the serious risk of your gear going downwind faster than you can swim. I know it happens sometimes that we let loose but please make the conscious effort.

Now to the board leash - other than issues of tripping over it, it getting snagged on foot strap velcro, wrapped around you, you have that big mastie thing sticking up in the middle of the board and we tend to go around it from both directions (tack and jibe). That alone makes a leash unworkable.

What about attaching the leash to the uni joint? On finning boards, it easy to keep hold of the boom. But when you over foil and get bucked off you loose it altogether and hit the water, then you look up and locate board drifting. Can you actually hold the boom when you over foil and get bucked off? I haven't figured that out?

Still worried?
OK, rear waist mounted leash to most back part of your board, like a rear footstrap.
You well tangle a bit on tacks and jibes, but it's the least obtrusive mounting of a leash.
8' or close, coil should work.

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LeeD said..
Still worried?
OK, rear waist mounted leash to most back part of your board, like a rear footstrap.
You well tangle a bit on tacks and jibes, but it's the least obtrusive mounting of a leash.
8' or close, coil should work.

No, I was thinking attaching leash to uni joint where mast base connects to sail, connect other end to front of harness. If leash is right length, it shouldn't drag in the water much. Plus I don't have foot straps. The only problem I can see is if I'm hooked in, go over the handle bars and am still hooked in and get stuck under the sail and the leash gets stuck around the foil mast, it could be a problem.

Mast track attachment would always put leash in front of feet, and maybe pull hard.
Attach at tail allows board to pivot, less pull, and puts leash behind you.
Attach to back of harness keeps leash behind.

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MagicRide said..

Paducah said..

MagicRide said..
Yesterday, I got bucked off my board and it started drifting away faster than I could swim. Luckily, I caught up to it. What are your thoughts on attaching a long leash to the board and my harness so when I fall off, it's not going to get away. Or is this idea too dangerous for getting trapped up around the board and stuck under the sail?

Rule 1: Don't let go of the boom
Rule 2: Refer to rule 1

Seriously, it not only keeps you close to the board but is the only thing that keeps the board flipping up with the foil towards you. This is the one great advantage we have over other foiling sports. If you let go of the boom in big conditions (say, like 85 l. slapper and 4.7) you run the serious risk of your gear going downwind faster than you can swim. I know it happens sometimes that we let loose but please make the conscious effort.

Now to the board leash - other than issues of tripping over it, it getting snagged on foot strap velcro, wrapped around you, you have that big mastie thing sticking up in the middle of the board and we tend to go around it from both directions (tack and jibe). That alone makes a leash unworkable.

What about attaching the leash to the uni joint? On finning boards, it easy to keep hold of the boom. But when you over foil and get bucked off you loose it altogether and hit the water, then you look up and locate board drifting. Can you actually hold the boom when you over foil and get bucked off? I haven't figured that out?

What do you mean "bucked off"? Most of us, when we over foil, land down and the nose stuffs, we go over the front. The board is beside us even if we do lose our grip. Which way are you falling? Let's solve that problem instead of implementing a Rube Goldberg solution.

When shtuff is starting to go bad, remind yourself to hold on. You'll know from your height or that gurgling sound under you that things are getting frisky. And if you do lose your grip, those first ten swimming strokes are key. Put your head down and swim like mad. The foil should keep the board from floating too fast, however, as LeeD said. I'm not going to say I've never let loose but I really, really try to hold on and scold myself if I do.

If you are really concerned about the board floating away being a safety issue, wear a float/impact jacket.

I got bucked off the back end of the board, so the board was already down wind of me. First time I landed that way. Usually I land front side by the nose, but not this time.

Maybe I should tie a 300 yard long rope to a huge tree on shore and the other end to back of board. Then I can just swim back and real in the board and sail if it gets away from me.

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MagicRide said..
I got bucked off the back end of the board, so the board was already down wind of me. First time I landed that way. Usually I land front side by the nose, but not this time.

Ahhh... Then you are leaning back (not out but towards the stern) - you still are in windsurf mode. Work on staying more forward and over the board. When I was starting out and for a good while after, it would take me 5-10 minutes to erase the windsurfing muscle memory and remember to be more forward. It's a weird feeling at first.

So, does this tend to happen in a gust or when trying to get the board out of the water? When it happens will change the prescription a bit. In the meantime, take a look at these to imprint in your mind what we are working towards.

You've been hanging around here long enough you should be familiar with this video. Now really take a look at how the guys are over the board and almost leaning forward (it helps to relax the front leg).

Edit: Heck, even the thumbnails are pretty helpful. I saw them after posting.



Another view of someone wound up but still staying forward (1:42 and on is a good close up).



Again, if you can find videos of skilled foilers take a note of where they are on the board.

Some decent shots here, too.

I will have to watch those videos. So what I've experienced with the i84, is with big sails, it weights the nose more, so I need more back foot pressure, than with smaller sails. So I lean back more on larger sails, and lean back less with smaller ones.

Why didn't the sail act as a drogue and slow the board down?

You could attach a tube to the end of the boom with a small drogue pulled inside it with a ball or something draggy sticking out. The line for the drogue goes through the tube and you just pull it to reset the drogue. When you fall in the water the drogue would pull out and stop the board drifting away.

Alternatively, simply attach a bit of towel to the end of the boom. When it's wet in the water it drags, when it's out of the water it just hangs there.

It would be easy to make and easy to use and way safer than having a leash attached to you.

Alternatively, get better at foiling.

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MagicRide said..
I will have to watch those videos. So what I've experienced with the i84, is with big sails, it weights the nose more, so I need more back foot pressure, than with smaller sails. So I lean back more on larger sails, and lean back less with smaller ones.

Are you moving your mast base back and raising the boom on the bigger sails to compensate? For me, my boards feel the same whether it's an 8.0 or 4.7. Either comes off the water with the same effort and it's more of an unweight rather than pushing with back foot.

These guys are running 9s and 10s in ridiculously light air. They are still pretty forward. Look around 1:34. His back foot is actually in front of the back strap.



Thanks for being kind enough to entertain some of my thoughts.

Leashes are used for wing foiling , so I don't see why you couldnt for wind foiling. The risk of the windfoil board floating away is much lower though.

I have been experimenting with the mast base in the middle all the way to the back. Found all the way back is over kill and it foils too quick, out of control and breaches too much. In the middle , makes the board stick to the water, and hard to lift off. The sweet spot seems to be 1/4 inch forward from the farthest back. In other words slide it all the way back, then move it forward 1/4 inch and it seems to be pretty balanced, but requires more back foot pressure with that setting.

I read somewhere on this site that the i84 requires a lot more back foot pressure than the i76 and gamma 68 wings. Can't speak for the 76 and 68, but it seems to hold true for the i84. Does this help explain my situation. As I lift off, I shift forward and back depending on how my flight is feeling, but over all, I'm using more back foot pressure to keep it up in flight as well and leaning my weight back towards the tail to keep it up. Seems like when the wind picks up more, I need lesser back foot pressure and can stand more straight up to compensate for the increase of wind. I tend to change to this stance when getting somewhat close to being over powered. If I'm just at the verge of feeling over powered, then I'm leaning forward to keep it balanced.

Is this sounding normal? It feels fine to me, but sounds different from what some of you are viewing.

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MagicRide said..
I have been experimenting with the mast base in the middle all the way to the back. Found all the way back is over kill and it foils too quick, out of control and breaches too much. In the middle , makes the board stick to the water, and hard to lift off. The sweet spot seems to be 1/4 inch forward from the farthest back. In other words slide it all the way back, then move it forward 1/4 inch and it seems to be pretty balanced, but requires more back foot pressure with that setting. ...

Is this with both big and smaller sails? 1/4 inch (.5cm) shouldn't make that dramatic of a difference. I mean I can tell when I move the mast base but moving it that little shouldn't be the difference between happiness and working in a rodeo. Again, thank you for your patience in sorting this out.

Should have asked earlier - are you using a harness? How high are your booms with both bigger and smaller sails?

Not just no, but hell no to the leash. Good way to end up being drowned.

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Paducah said..

MagicRide said..
I have been experimenting with the mast base in the middle all the way to the back. Found all the way back is over kill and it foils too quick, out of control and breaches too much. In the middle , makes the board stick to the water, and hard to lift off. The sweet spot seems to be 1/4 inch forward from the farthest back. In other words slide it all the way back, then move it forward 1/4 inch and it seems to be pretty balanced, but requires more back foot pressure with that setting. ...

Is this with both big and smaller sails? 1/4 inch (.5cm) shouldn't make that dramatic of a difference. I mean I can tell when I move the mast base but moving it that little shouldn't be the difference between happiness and working in a rodeo. Again, thank you for your patience in sorting this out.

Should have asked earlier - are you using a harness? How high are your booms with both bigger and smaller sails?

I do wear a harness, and I hook in most of the time. My arms get too tired if I don't hook in. I do feel comfortable being hooked in when in flight and when board is touching water. I'm setting the boom a little lower than finning so I can unhook easier and faster if need be. Boom when foiling is again not much than 1/4 lower when foiling than finning. So 1/4 lower than shoulder height. When finning, it's exactly shoulder height.

It does feel like the board gets on foil easier with lighter sails, but is more responsive. With bigger sails, the board is less responsive when on foil. Just seems like the larger sails weight the nose more than lighter sails, so the board reacts to getting on foil a little different. But yes, the mast foot is set the same at 1/4 inch from the back of mast track for all my sails, 5.2, 6.0 and 6.8

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Paducah said..

MagicRide said..
I will have to watch those videos. So what I've experienced with the i84, is with big sails, it weights the nose more, so I need more back foot pressure, than with smaller sails. So I lean back more on larger sails, and lean back less with smaller ones.

Are you moving your mast base back and raising the boom on the bigger sails to compensate? For me, my boards feel the same whether it's an 8.0 or 4.7. Either comes off the water with the same effort and it's more of an unweight rather than pushing with back foot.

These guys are running 9s and 10s in ridiculously light air. They are still pretty forward. Look around 1:34. His back foot is actually in front of the back strap.

Thanks for being kind enough to entertain some of my thoughts.

I love that vid for every aspect of racing and technique, but mind that the frontwing is a rough 15-20cm further forward than on the slingshot the topic starter is using. His foil isnt designed to be used with sails much over 6.5m2.

In foil, especially with a freeride foil, you should generally ride your boom higher (roughly 10cm or 4" higher should be a good starting point) than with regular windsurfing, and your mastfoot further back. Most freeridefoils are designed a little underpowered (in my opinion) to make everything easier for beginners. To get most out of it you probably need to move everything back and up, although ofcourse with a bigger sail you have to ride the mastfoot further forward to keep the sail in the right place relative to the rider. I raise the boom even higher on big sails to compensate for the increased weight on the front.

I'm 194cm (6'4") tall, and for me it usually means riding the boom in the top 5cm of the cutout. The cutout of big sails are already generally designed to be higher up and there's a reason for that, always riding shoulder height with every sail is a stupid idea (again in my opinion), if you like shoulderheight with your 5-6m, you should ride a little lower for sails under 5m, and higher for sails over 6m to compensate for the weight, especially when foiling. At least if you want the balance to be roughly equal across your setups. If you ride 1 brand sails (with most brands at least) always picking the same point relative to the top of the boomcut is the best place to start (after figuring out what is around shoulderheight for your 5-6m size). Some brands have uncanny low boomcutouts throughout their entire range, but those are generally not good foiling sails anyway. Most top brands (duotone, severne, s2maui) adapt boomcut height and size per sailsize and type, and you should generally go with that design choice when you trim your kit.

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WhiteofHeart said..

Paducah said..

MagicRide said..
I will have to watch those videos. So what I've experienced with the i84, is with big sails, it weights the nose more, so I need more back foot pressure, than with smaller sails. So I lean back more on larger sails, and lean back less with smaller ones.

Are you moving your mast base back and raising the boom on the bigger sails to compensate? For me, my boards feel the same whether it's an 8.0 or 4.7. Either comes off the water with the same effort and it's more of an unweight rather than pushing with back foot.

These guys are running 9s and 10s in ridiculously light air. They are still pretty forward. Look around 1:34. His back foot is actually in front of the back strap.

Thanks for being kind enough to entertain some of my thoughts.

I love that vid for every aspect of racing and technique, but mind that the frontwing is a rough 15-20cm further forward than on the slingshot the topic starter is using. His foil isnt designed to be used with sails much over 6.5m2.

In foil, especially with a freeride foil, you should generally ride your boom higher (roughly 10cm or 4" higher should be a good starting point) than with regular windsurfing, and your mastfoot further back. Most freeridefoils are designed a little underpowered (in my opinion) to make everything easier for beginners. To get most out of it you probably need to move everything back and up, although ofcourse with a bigger sail you have to ride the mastfoot further forward to keep the sail in the right place relative to the rider. I raise the boom even higher on big sails to compensate for the increased weight on the front.

I'm 194cm (6'4") tall, and for me it usually means riding the boom in the top 5cm of the cutout. The cutout of big sails are already generally designed to be higher up and there's a reason for that, always riding shoulder height with every sail is a stupid idea (again in my opinion), if you like shoulderheight with your 5-6m, you should ride a little lower for sails under 5m, and higher for sails over 6m to compensate for the weight, especially when foiling. At least if you want the balance to be roughly equal across your setups. If you ride 1 brand sails (with most brands at least) always picking the same point relative to the top of the boomcut is the best place to start (after figuring out what is around shoulderheight for your 5-6m size). Some brands have uncanny low boomcutouts throughout their entire range, but those are generally not good foiling sails anyway. Most top brands (duotone, severne, s2maui) adapt boomcut height and size per sailsize and type, and you should generally go with that design choice when you trim your kit.

The reason I've been riding with boom at shoulder height, because, number 1, it seems to be the most common way to set your boom from what I have read from many experienced windsurfers, and windsurfers I've met up with for freeriding so I have adapted to it. Number 2, shoulder height is the highest I can set my boom in order for me to hook in using 22 inch harness lines. I'm very accustomed to shorter lines. Been using short lines for almost 20 years. So that's where I stand on boom height. I can't go out without hooking in, my arms can't handle it. I need to take the load off the arms with use of harness. Hope this makes sense. I'm also 5' 11" tall. So on large sails, I'm speaking of a 6.8, which is my largest sail, I ride my boom about and 1 inch and a half above the bottom cutout. My 6.0 I ride about in the middle of cutout and about the same position with my 5.2. My 6.8 and 5.2 are all new generation Ezzy sails and the 6.0 is a 2013 Naish Alterain sail.

If I set the mast foot any more forward than it is now for my 6.8, the board sticks to the water and won't want to lift. It seems like for all my 3 sails, 5.2, 6.0 and 6.8, the mast foot seems to be in the sweet spot at 1/4 from the very back of the mast track. Hope this helps describe my setup a little more. This week, I will do a video and then you all can see everything in action. I know we kind of got off topic in regards to the foil leash idea, but this stuff is important as well. Sounding like the leash is too dangerous. I will have to try the idea of making something to act as drag when I'm not able to grab hold of boom when I fall off.

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WhiteofHeart said..

Paducah said..

MagicRide said..
I will have to watch those videos. So what I've experienced with the i84, is with big sails, it weights the nose more, so I need more back foot pressure, than with smaller sails. So I lean back more on larger sails, and lean back less with smaller ones.

Are you moving your mast base back and raising the boom on the bigger sails to compensate? For me, my boards feel the same whether it's an 8.0 or 4.7. Either comes off the water with the same effort and it's more of an unweight rather than pushing with back foot.

These guys are running 9s and 10s in ridiculously light air. They are still pretty forward. Look around 1:34. His back foot is actually in front of the back strap.

Thanks for being kind enough to entertain some of my thoughts.

I love that vid for every aspect of racing and technique, but mind that the frontwing is a rough 15-20cm further forward than on the slingshot the topic starter is using. His foil isnt designed to be used with sails much over 6.5m2.

In foil, especially with a freeride foil, you should generally ride your boom higher (roughly 10cm or 4" higher should be a good starting point) than with regular windsurfing, and your mastfoot further back. Most freeridefoils are designed a little underpowered (in my opinion) to make everything easier for beginners. To get most out of it you probably need to move everything back and up, although ofcourse with a bigger sail you have to ride the mastfoot further forward to keep the sail in the right place relative to the rider. I raise the boom even higher on big sails to compensate for the increased weight on the front.

I'm 194cm (6'4") tall, and for me it usually means riding the boom in the top 5cm of the cutout. The cutout of big sails are already generally designed to be higher up and there's a reason for that, always riding shoulder height with every sail is a stupid idea (again in my opinion), if you like shoulderheight with your 5-6m, you should ride a little lower for sails under 5m, and higher for sails over 6m to compensate for the weight, especially when foiling. At least if you want the balance to be roughly equal across your setups. If you ride 1 brand sails (with most brands at least) always picking the same point relative to the top of the boomcut is the best place to start (after figuring out what is around shoulderheight for your 5-6m size). Some brands have uncanny low boomcutouts throughout their entire range, but those are generally not good foiling sails anyway. Most top brands (duotone, severne, s2maui) adapt boomcut height and size per sailsize and type, and you should generally go with that design choice when you trim your kit.

I figured someone would notice. I was very aware of the forward wings on those and was going to mention it since that reinforces the point of having the lift forward or requiring less back foot pressure is part of how easily those boards lift up. It goes exactly to what you've said many times - and I agree with - that having the lift forward is preferable. I have friends on foils like his with 7s and even 8.2; we live in a wind starved place. The purpose of the video was to imprint the image in his mind of where people are on the board and, at least in my view, there are more similarities with their stance and the freefoilers in Australia than differences.

I agree with you on the booms, too, which was why I was probing on that point. Mine are nose high on my big sails (middle of the cut out on a regular freerace sail, bottom third on a foil-specific sail) with longish lines for me - 26" inches. I'm only 5-6 (167cm) with a waist harness. I think if he begins to push that boom up a bit he could relieve the front foot pressure enough to even push the mast base forward and find the board is not as tweaky. MagicRide, as you probably are aware, having a lower boom puts more pressure on the front foot. By having the boom "lower", your front foot is effectively pushing the board back down so you have to add pressure to the back foot to compensate.

WoH, thanks for your contributions as I value your thoughts and I don't want to send MagicRide down the wrong road.

22" lines are too short. For someone 5'11" you need at least 28" and you'd be better off with 30-32".

I actually didn't know that having the boom lower puts more pressure on the front foot. Good to know. But in all actuality, does it really matter if I like sailing with the boom on the low side and to compensate for that, I just give the board more back foot pressure and lean back here and their. If anything, I get to keep my normal windsurfing stance on the foil. Don't get me wrong, I felt pretty balanced and comfortable for my first real foil session. I was out 2 days prior to this session and wind was all crapy and too light, so I'm not counting those sessions.

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Grantmac said..
22" lines are too short. For someone 5'11" you need at least 28" and you'd be better off with 30-32".

I had a hard enough time moving from 20-22 inch lines. I don't see how I can be on 28 or higher lines. I just don't like hanging that low off the boom. I was on 18" lines for years, then moved to 20s that was better, but I have been on 22s for 2 years now, and I think I like 20s better, but I'm still on 22s. Who knows! But I can't see me going up anymore than 22s. Don't know what to say, but I love being close to the boom, hanging higher off the water. Just feels right to me, and the control I have on these size lines are pretty nice. I think I had slightly better control on 20s.

I don't have slalom sails. I have wave/ freeride sails and use them on my foilboard if it matters.

5'10" and use 22" lines.
My whole setup foiling is exactly the same as freeride windsurf setup. Slalom setup moves mast base 1.5" forward.
My wingspan is shorter than my height.
Slogging, my harness lines are 9" above my hook.

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MagicRide said..
I actually didn't know that having the boom lower puts more pressure on the front foot. Good to know. But in all actuality, does it really matter if I like sailing with the boom on the low side and to compensate for that, I just give the board more back foot pressure and lean back here and their. If anything, I get to keep my normal windsurfing stance on the foil. Don't get me wrong, I felt pretty balanced and comfortable for my first real foil session. I was out 2 days prior to this session and wind was all crapy and too light, so I'm not counting those sessions.

If you are having fun ofcourse it doesnt really matter, but...... if you want to advance, get most out of your kit by flying in sub 10-12 knot conditions, flying through jibes and have most stability in gusty weather, you want to have front foot pressure.

When I started foiling I shortened my lines to 24" (I was at 28"), now I'm back at 28" for light wind and 30" when overpowered or doing speedruns. I feel harnessline length is a very personal thing, and everything works, with slightly adapted techniques at least. Your harnessline length and boomheight are practically uncorrelated and harnessline length and bodylength only slightly. When using 24" (also with 22") its totally possible to have your boom at eyeheight or higher, especially when using your harness solely (primarily) when on the plane (like its supposed to be used).

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WhiteofHeart said..

MagicRide said..
I actually didn't know that having the boom lower puts more pressure on the front foot. Good to know. But in all actuality, does it really matter if I like sailing with the boom on the low side and to compensate for that, I just give the board more back foot pressure and lean back here and their. If anything, I get to keep my normal windsurfing stance on the foil. Don't get me wrong, I felt pretty balanced and comfortable for my first real foil session. I was out 2 days prior to this session and wind was all crapy and too light, so I'm not counting those sessions.

If you are having fun ofcourse it doesnt really matter, but...... if you want to advance, get most out of your kit by flying in sub 10-12 knot conditions, flying through jibes and have most stability in gusty weather, you want to have front foot pressure.

When I started foiling I shortened my lines to 24" (I was at 28"), now I'm back at 28" for light wind and 30" when overpowered or doing speedruns. I feel harnessline length is a very personal thing, and everything works, with slightly adapted techniques at least. Your harnessline length and boomheight are practically uncorrelated and harnessline length and bodylength only slightly. When using 24" (also with 22") its totally possible to have your boom at eyeheight or higher, especially when using your harness solely (primarily) when on the plane (like its supposed to be used).

If I move the lines closer together, I'd probably be able to raise the boom more and still be able to hook in. By memory, they are about 2-2.5" apart. I have so much learning to do on the foil. Right now, I'm just working on staying in flight as long as I can, then touch down and come back up in flight, controlling the flight too. When I need to turn back, I touch down and tack and get back on foil again. Not ready to gybe yet. Have a feeling once I get more comfortable, I will try falling off the wind on foil, then touch down and do a planing gybe, then get on back on foil .

Think I'm going to pick up one of these. Good idea!!

Fix your stance and 22" lines will be too short. Nobody good at waves, foiling or freestyle are using lines that short for a reason.