Windsurf boards have finboxes located farther back.
None are equal.
If your windsurf board does not have twin track, you need a windsurf fuselage, which moves the foil farther forward by 4".

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Mucel said..
The guys who use Gofoil in WWF, I think they use surf fuselages, I don't know how they manage to go so stable. Something related to the huge front winds? or behind those brigth videos are many many hours ;)

yes, i find that on the same fuselage my bigger wing is much more stable than my smaller one.
probably due mostly to chord

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boardsurfr said..

Mucel said..
Regarding the foil my only doubt is the fuselage. It's a surf fuselage (70 cm), which is 10 cm shorter than the NP glide wind fuselage (80cm). May it have so much influence? I thought I wouldn't need a long fuselage to put the front wing under my body as my US tracks are further of the typical fin box and can adjust exactly which is the best position.

Your thinking is correct with respect to the position of the front wing. But a shorter fuse is much less stable, so you'd have to be an excellent foiler to control it. Race foils come with fuses that are up to 115 cm long for more stability.

This means that your foil will go up and down much more quickly when anything changes, for example when you shift your weight, or a gust hits. You do not have much time to react, and as a beginner, your reactions are not yet automatic, so you will breach more.

The other thing that might make life harder for you is that the NP Surf setup comes with a 70 cm mast, while the Wind setup comes with an 80 cm mast. The longer mast also gives you more time to react, and 10 cm more can make a surprising difference. You can learn on 70 cm masts, and you can use them (I do it all the time at shallow spots), but you need better control than on longer masts. I see even very good to expert foilers breach and crash on a regular basis when they are forced to use shorter masts. The 2019 NP Surf foil used an even shorter mast (65 cm).

You'll definitely have an easier time learning if you upgrade your gear. The cheapest change would be the Wind fuselage, at about $160. But since that would move the front wing 10 cm forward, you'd have to adjust your stance. Moving the mast base forward would be part of that, but probably won't be enough. Your feet probably would need to be in front of the foot straps, so you may as well remove them, at least until you've got reasonable height control.

Hello
I continue tunning in different positions mast base and foil with surf fuselage, some advance. Is there anything to gain in stability tunning the inclination of the rear stab?

Regarding the upgrade of the gear, I could buy a longer windsurfing fuselage but I don't want to take out the footstraps because of the advanced position of the front wing. Maybe I should change the foil into one which could have a longer fuselage but with the front wing close to the foil mast, such as SS infinity 76 in position A or a Starboard Supercruiser. The supercruiser is the best quality one, but a bit big for my 70 kg.

On the other hand, everybody says the centre of effort of the front wing should be in the middle of the footstraps, but I see many videos with the front wing closer to the rear footstraps

Thanks.

I ran into this issue at a spot that has very gusty wind due to wind shadows due to land/buildings when it's slightly offshore in a bay.

I kept blowing up from accelerating hard in gusts, especially over 20mph gusts or so. Mast foot forward, adjustable outhaul tighter, shimming the stab to give less lift...

It really seems like in gusty wind you either need to point higher upwind or deeper downwind. This is easier for me to do on a race foil as the longer fuselage gives a lot more stability than my slingshot gear, but it probably would've helped on the slingshot gear too. Huge difference. I'm going to try to avoid a straight beam reach, which I can usually do very easily on a fin without blowing up, but it really seems like beam reaching is not for foiling unless you have dedicated slalom gear with the right sized sail (smaller sail, smaller front wing, etc.)

So, even if you are headed home and a beam reach 90deg to the wind direction gets you there, it is far more controllable to zig zag upwind some, then downwind some, as either one is more controllable than totally loading up the sail on a beam reach.

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Grantmac said..
You need the windsurf fuselage, otherwise you run the mast so far forward that you have no directional stability.

Hello
Today I've used the long fuselage for the first time (81cm). The 10 cm increased length compared with the surf fuselage delivers much more stability. It's incredible how much the right equipment influences windfoiling

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Mucel said..

Grantmac said..
You need the windsurf fuselage, otherwise you run the mast so far forward that you have no directional stability.

Hello
Today I've used the long fuselage for the first time (81cm). The 10 cm increased length compared with the surf fuselage delivers much more stability. It's incredible how much the right equipment influences windfoiling

it is good to try the short fuselage for windfoiling at least once just to know how much harder it makes things

Yes, big front wings mellow everything out including pitch.
In the WWF style with a short fuse and front wing close to the mast (surf fuze) you need to move the sail much closer to the foil. Like 30"/76cm front bolt to universal with your back foot placed at the mast. Some folks find this directionally unstable. Others like it and call it loose and maneuverable. I see all sides to this.

If you are just starting out foiling and particularly if you HAVE windsurfing experience get your hands on a windsurf fuse. This will feel more like what you're used to. Not only is the windsurf fuze longer which helps mellow pitch response but it places the front wing further forward of the mast. This allows the mast to be position aft in the windsurf box for more directional stability while the wing is forward keeping things from getting back foot heavy. Basically it's gonna work for ya with your straps in place.

Keep the surf fuze to try this style as you advance, you might like. Or if you can't source the windsurf fuze or budget doesn't permit it yet you can ride what you have by putting the foil all the way aft in the tracks and moving your sail all the way aft. Take your straps off and place your back foot FORWARD of the aft deck pad so that it is over the mast. Eventually you will learn to deal with sensitive yaw response. Set up like this the sail has less effect on pitch and this can actually help beginners. People with windsurfing habits have a harder time adjusting to the sail so close to the mast though.

Keep in mind stable flight comes as much from time on the water as it does gear set up. There are just a ton of subtle corrections that you have to make at an almost subconscious level before the magic happens. Keep charging Mucel!

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utcminusfour said..
Yes, big front wings mellow everything out including pitch.
In the WWF style with a short fuse and front wing close to the mast (surf fuze) you need to move the sail much closer to the foil. Like 30"/76cm front bolt to universal with your back foot placed at the mast. Some folks find this directionally unstable. Others like it and call it loose and maneuverable. I see all sides to this.

If you are just starting out foiling and particularly if you HAVE windsurfing experience get your hands on a windsurf fuse. This will feel more like what you're used to. Not only is the windsurf fuze longer which helps mellow pitch response but it places the front wing further forward of the mast. This allows the mast to be position aft in the windsurf box for more directional stability while the wing is forward keeping things from getting back foot heavy. Basically it's gonna work for ya with your straps in place.

Keep the surf fuze to try this style as you advance, you might like. Or if you can't source the windsurf fuze or budget doesn't permit it yet you can ride what you have by putting the foil all the way aft in the tracks and moving your sail all the way aft. Take your straps off and place your back foot FORWARD of the aft deck pad so that it is over the mast. Eventually you will learn to deal with sensitive yaw response. Set up like this the sail has less effect on pitch and this can actually help beginners. People with windsurfing habits have a harder time adjusting to the sail so close to the mast though.

Keep in mind stable flight comes as much from time on the water as it does gear set up. There are just a ton of subtle corrections that you have to make at an almost subconscious level before the magic happens. Keep charging Mucel!

Thanks. I have to keep on spending time on the water, so much pending to learn, but the help of the long fuse is incredible.

What it's amazing is that, after 25 years of waveriding I fall many more times on 12 knots slog jibing with the windfoiling board than with my 82 litres waveboard with the same wind strength. Tacking is closer to regular windsurfing. Uphauling is very tired after those 25 years without needing it

I also find slog jibing very....variable. Better to slog rack.

Tack.

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LeeD said..
Tack.

Hi. I want to recommend the cardan joint for learning windfoiling, as it allows you to move the position of the sail mast easily without coming back to shore when you are over/underpowered. I use it always and change the position often in the water

Hi
Coming back to the original topic of the post, although It frightens me a bit, the best way to avoid breaching could be foiling strapless? with no straps can you advance your feet fast enough to prevent a breach? or is it worse because the breach happens too fast and you can't control the landing? With my feet in the straps I can recover many breach landings.

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Mucel said..
Hi
Coming back to the original topic of the post, although It frightens me a bit, the best way to avoid breaching could be foiling strapless? with no straps can you advance your feet fast enough to prevent a breach? or is it worse because the breach happens too fast and you can't control the landing? With my feet in the straps I can recover many breach landings.

I've recovered a lot of breaches being strapped in as well.

The biggest thing that has helped lately is using very long harness lines. I was foiling with much shorter lines and it was helping me some upwind, but since then I have just started hiking out more when overpowered. Still have a lot to learn, but it's way more chill and less scary to just be leaning way out and to spill air out of the sail, which is now less vertical.

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Mucel said..
Hi
Coming back to the original topic of the post, although It frightens me a bit, the best way to avoid breaching could be foiling strapless? with no straps can you advance your feet fast enough to prevent a breach? or is it worse because the breach happens too fast and you can't control the landing? With my feet in the straps I can recover many breach landings.

I struggled with with breaching upwind on the I76. Straps all the way forward, foil mast all the way back. Leaning forward in harness lines, sail mast forward etc. I removed the straps and foiled for 5 hours in 14 26 knots using a 4.5 sail and had a blast. It was way more stable, comfortable moving my front foot forward 2-3" forward of the foot strap location. I came to the conclusion I'm too small,lightweight to keep the nose down on the W114, I76. I've since machined some offset plates to move the front strap forward. Things are so much easier now. When is gusts hard, I can turn hard upwind, or stand up straight, back foot in the middle of the board and cruise downwind. And jeeze, you can really go upwind on a foil. The upwind distance I do in two tacks on a foil would be 5 on my fin board.

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Mucel said..
Coming back to the original topic of the post, although It frightens me a bit, the best way to avoid breaching could be foiling strapless? with no straps can you advance your feet fast enough to prevent a breach? or is it worse because the breach happens too fast and you can't control the landing? With my feet in the straps I can recover many breach landings.

I'm a big fan of foiling strapless on freeride foils, but I use straps with my freerace foil, and occasionally with the i84. What WsurfAustin describes is under which circumstances going strapless can help to avoid breaching: if your setup otherwise is not balanced for the conditions (for example because the foot straps are too far back). With a reasonably balanced setup, I don't think there's a big difference in breach avoidance or recovery.

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WsurfAustin said..
I struggled with with breaching upwind on the I76. Straps all the way forward, foil mast all the way back. Leaning forward in harness lines, sail mast forward etc. I removed the straps and foiled for 5 hours in 14 26 knots using a 4.5 sail and had a blast. It was way more stable, comfortable moving my front foot forward 2-3" forward of the foot strap location. I came to the conclusion I'm too small,lightweight to keep the nose down on the W114, I76. I've since machined some offset plates to move the front strap forward. Things are so much easier now. When is gusts hard, I can turn hard upwind, or stand up straight, back foot in the middle of the board and cruise downwind. And jeeze, you can really go upwind on a foil. The upwind distance I do in two tacks on a foil would be 5 on my fin board.

If you are a lightweight, consider trimming the stab. A lot of foils are set up for 75-90 kg riders and, when you are lighter than that, there's just too much lift at speed. Also consider smaller front wings and sails at the upper end of that wind range - 26 kts is a lot of wind for a foil wing that big if you are on the lighter side.

All foils are lifting devices. A lifting device will increase lift as the speed increases. No-brainer there.

You can mitigate the increase in lift (and breaches if it goes too far) by all the tips mentioned above. My main focus for this right now is shimming the stab to reduce the down angle. This requires me to use more back foot to initiate flight, but it also keeps the lift in control during gusts. For your particular geometry you have to experiment with this to find your goldilocks.

Something people don't mention enough is the design of purpose-built foiling sails. They are designed to push DOWN in the gusts, not up or not forward. Obviously pushing DOWN helps avoid breaching during gusts. You notice that foiling sails have more cloth up high than do slalom or generic freeride sails. That pushes DOWN.

See this video again and watch carefully. He talks about exactly this.

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WsurfAustin said..

Mucel said..
Hi
Coming back to the original topic of the post, although It frightens me a bit, the best way to avoid breaching could be foiling strapless? with no straps can you advance your feet fast enough to prevent a breach? or is it worse because the breach happens too fast and you can't control the landing? With my feet in the straps I can recover many breach landings.

I struggled with with breaching upwind on the I76. Straps all the way forward, foil mast all the way back. Leaning forward in harness lines, sail mast forward etc. I removed the straps and foiled for 5 hours in 14 26 knots using a 4.5 sail and had a blast. It was way more stable, comfortable moving my front foot forward 2-3" forward of the foot strap location. I came to the conclusion I'm too small,lightweight to keep the nose down on the W114, I76. I've since machined some offset plates to move the front strap forward. Things are so much easier now. When is gusts hard, I can turn hard upwind, or stand up straight, back foot in the middle of the board and cruise downwind. And jeeze, you can really go upwind on a foil. The upwind distance I do in two tacks on a foil would be 5 on my fin board.

The i76 is a lifting machine and like you said it gets you up there very quickly (and I'm not a light weight).

I had issues taming the i76 with the wizard 125 (tuttle) but with the wizard 130 (like your 114) I just slot it all the way back as far as it will go. I rarely use the back strap other than pinching upwind, as soon as I bear off and my back foot is in the strap you better be concentrating as its like the i76 is saying "oh you want to go fast and high, well hold then"...

A phenomenal wing

Since CoreAS mentioned i76 wing, this is what I recently discovered while changing from i99 to 76. I76 has a much longer neck that puts the wing further forward comparing to i99 or 84. On this picture the 76 is in position B on the mast. The 99 is in position C. The leading edges line up nicely. It turns out that the 76 assembly is 2 inches longer than 99 which places the tail wing further back giving it more leverage and hence lifting power. Plus the center of lift of the 76 ends up further forward comparing to 99 creating this "lifting machine". Since I got the sliding pedestal it is easy to find the balance when changing wings.

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sl55 said..


Since CoreAS mentioned i76 wing, this is what I recently discovered while changing from i99 to 76. I76 has a much longer neck that puts the wing further forward comparing to i99 or 84. On this picture the 76 is in position B on the mast. The 99 is in position C. The leading edges line up nicely. It turns out that the 76 assembly is 2 inches longer than 99 which places the tail wing further back giving it more leverage and hence lifting power. Plus the center of lift of the 76 ends up further forward comparing to 99 creating this "lifting machine". Since I got the sliding pedestal it is easy to find the balance when changing wings.

Also, faster wings will result in more lift and the need for more front foot pressure