Hello
I began windfoiling last summer but It's difficult for me controling overpowering and avoid breaching. I bought the right stuff just before the winter arrived so I've practised several times with gusty winds. I wanted to know how to control overpowered conditions. I can only open the sail and this has some good effect, but there must be more options like getting upwind, or putting the back foot in front of the back strap,..., I want to know the technics on board I could use to manage this, apart from moving the foil mast backward or the sail mast base forward.

I would appreciate any advise.

Thanks.

some tips to control an over lifting foil
1) shift more weight to your front foot - more effective with inboard straps and front strap closer to sail mast. Also more effective with wider stance (mine is 24 inches)
2) maintain mast foot pressure when sheeting out - longer harness lines help.
3) Step back foot forward if no 1 does not work
4) scoot upwind

Generally I ride with about 70% of my weight on the front foot. If underpowered its more like 50% and increases when trying to push down a lifting foil

PS: when I was learning I had not mastered No 1 or No 4 so I moved my harness lines forward of sail center of pressure so it was very easy to sheet out and stay hooked in, for a long while my harness lines are in the normal position

For me, easiest is to head upwind very high, stay in straps.
Once too far upwind, unhook, turn board waay downwind, and ride windswell back downwind. You are course slaloming.

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Mucel said..
Hello
I began windfoiling last summer but It's difficult for me controling overpowering and avoid breaching. I bought the right stuff just before the winter arrived so I've practised several times with gusty winds. I wanted to know how to control overpowered conditions. I can only open the sail and this has some good effect, but there must be more options like getting upwind, or putting the back foot in front of the back strap,..., I want to know the technics on board I could use to manage this, apart from moving the foil mast backward or the sail mast base forward.

I would appreciate any advise.

Thanks.

What I do is to put ALL my weight to the front, bring the board down and slog back to the beachthen I grab my windsurf and go out in the same conditions having a blast!

Wind range on my foil remains maybe one sail size, compared to four on a windsurf. On a windsurf I can be on a 6.5 when others are planing on 4.5, no problem. On a foil I need a sail that get me close to planing speed to take off, but the second I can easily water start the sail I am overpowered.

Foil remains by far my largest waste of money in 40 years of windsurfing ... far ahead of the second: dry suits!

I can ride the same sail from not able to waterstart up to the point where I could plug it into a regular board and be comfortably powered. It's all a question of technique:
Weight the front foot, go for higher angles up or downwind.
I don't change harness line length, position or boom height compared to finning and I like my lines well back. I also use one large (1700cm2) foil.
In my local area foiling boosts the good days from a couple a month tops to most days.

Little guys in high wind areas don't need foils.
100kg dudes in 10-15 need foils.
In 38 years of windsurfing, I always got 80 planing days with 6.0 as my biggest sail.
When I turned 55, more time to sail, I always got 100+ planing days, now 6.5 sail and 100 liter board...got fat too.

Sorry, got capitalized and italicized.
Retired in '02, so get 120+ days windsurfing, 109 board and 6.5 max.
With foil, I get to choose more of my days.

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Grantmac said..
I can ride the same sail from not able to waterstart up to the point where I could plug it into a regular board and be comfortably powered. It's all a question of technique:
Weight the front foot, go for higher angles up or downwind.
I don't change harness line length, position or boom height compared to finning and I like my lines well back. I also use one large (1700cm2) foil.
In my local area foiling boosts the good days from a couple a month tops to most days.

As Lee mentioned, at my weight (72Kg) and where I sail (San Francisco Bay) I am now concluding that unfortunately foil buys me nothing but a more difficult, and dangerous, sailing experience. I can see getting to the point when I will be able to hang on the foil when I would be "comfortably powered" with a regular board, but why? On a regular board I can regularly sail "uncomfortably overpowered" in total safety.

I have on order a Futura 71 and a Point-7 ACX 7.5. When they come in my low wind limit should go down even further, with the lighter sail easier to handle in close to sub-planing with respect to my current Switchblade 7.3. Foiling might happen in those rare days when wind is in a fairly regular 6-11 knots range.

I often foil in overpowered conditions, partly because I'm too lazy to change down sail size and also due to variable gusty winds in a single session. All of the hints above apply, but changing down the front wing size helps too.
I have NP Glide S/M/L, and changing down from M->S reduces lift and improves control as wind approach 20 knots.
Cheers, Mort

If you keep going out after more sessions it will become easier to handle more wind, main reason because your movements will become instinctive. In the beginning you tend to breach because you react a bit too late to the conditions.

Hi Mucel

it would be good to know what gear your using. Board, foil, sails etc , as all combinations behave slightly different

Cheers

Jesper

Second knowing what your gear is, the first step is to make sure the sail is the right size and rigged for the gusts with adjustment to increase outhaul on the water, sail mast base position is also important- too far back and you will have too much lift, then comes the foil front wing and stabilizer shim. But if everything is good for the conditions and then I see a gust coming, will sheet out the sail for a short gust, or head upwind for a longer gust. But if the conditions pop up a level I get off the water quickly and either change to a smaller wing, or lastly rig a smaller sail. No sense in fighting the wind pressure on the sail. But it takes a lot of experience to rig correctly in gusty conditions, most recently I found using an anemometer that averages the wind speed for 15 sec. to help a lot for rigging properly.

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duzzi said..Foil remains by far my largest waste of money in 40 years of windsurfing ... far ahead of the second: dry suits!

Sorry to read you've had such a miserable experience.

Here in Perth there are more than 40 regular freeride foilers that I know and as far as I can tell they're all frothing

Foiling not only gets you out on the water on more days but it makes downwind carving on windswells possible - which I think is next to impossible on regular windsurfers.
It's not easy in stronger winds but everyone who puts the time in and has reasonable windsurf skills can learn it and its crazy superfun - 0.5m to 2.5m swells are awesome with no limit to the number of turns you can do
Piece of cake to sail back upwind so no car shuffles needed.

to reduce lift heel your board to windward.
if you do nothing else, increasing the bank of the foil will reduce the vertical component of lift.

My best foiling days are 20-25kts, but usually quite gusty within that average.
Not interesting conditions for regular fin sailing, too choppy and like Azmuth said you just can't turn much on unbreaking swell with anything but a foil.

I'd still rather wavesail, but I'll take foil over B&J or slalom.

Guess it depends how close you are to windy locations.
Duzzi and I live on opposite ends of SF Bay. We can easily exceed 80 days of 5.0 and 85 liter sailing within 20 kilometers distance.
Personally, I choose to seek lighter breezes at least 3/4 of the time. I'm 72.
.

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duzzi said..

I am now concluding that unfortunately foil buys me nothing but a more difficult, and dangerous, sailing experience.

Well we've all wondered about that, but you've got to balance the extra risk to old bones with all the benefits to the old brain of setting out to wire in a new set of skills.

It may not be that much more dangerous. Although you will crash more learning a new skill, you're generally going slower and have a smaller sail up to power the catapaults. More pointy bits maybe . It's only a flesh wound.

Sounds like you need to experiment with your mast base location?

If you are having pitch issues in the gusts then move the mast base forward 1cm at a time until it smooths out.

Flagging the sail out is really the last ditch way to control the foil in severe gusts so something is not right with the set up.

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Mucel said..
Hello
I began windfoiling last summer but It's difficult for me controling overpowering and avoid breaching. I bought the right stuff just before the winter arrived so I've practised several times with gusty winds. I wanted to know how to control overpowered conditions. I can only open the sail and this has some good effect, but there must be more options like getting upwind, or putting the back foot in front of the back strap,..., I want to know the technics on board I could use to manage this, apart from moving the foil mast backward or the sail mast base forward.

I would appreciate any advise.

Thanks.

Hey Mucel, this may not work for you but I ride strapless and have found that I can foil comfortably in different conditions by moving around the board a few cm until I find a spot that is comfortable on that swell, reach, or jibe. Of course you still have to shift your weight a bit depending on what is happening but I am not good enough to make those big weight shifts that some of these skilled riders do.

Even going without the back strap may help, as small changes in foot position seem to make a big difference.

Not to say it does not make perfect sense but I can't relate to the folks who tune their foot strap position or even their mast track or foil position. When I get a new foil, board or sail I just jump on it a go. Not to say I don't need time to get used to the "feel" of the new equipment but it has little to do with its position.

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duzzi said..

Mucel said..
Hello
I began windfoiling last summer but It's difficult for me controling overpowering and avoid breaching. I bought the right stuff just before the winter arrived so I've practised several times with gusty winds. I wanted to know how to control overpowered conditions. I can only open the sail and this has some good effect, but there must be more options like getting upwind, or putting the back foot in front of the back strap,..., I want to know the technics on board I could use to manage this, apart from moving the foil mast backward or the sail mast base forward.

I would appreciate any advise.

Thanks.

What I do is to put ALL my weight to the front, bring the board down and slog back to the beachthen I grab my windsurf and go out in the same conditions having a blast!

Wind range on my foil remains maybe one sail size, compared to four on a windsurf. On a windsurf I can be on a 6.5 when others are planing on 4.5, no problem. On a foil I need a sail that get me close to planing speed to take off, but the second I can easily water start the sail I am overpowered.

Foil remains by far my largest waste of money in 40 years of windsurfing ... far ahead of the second: dry suits!

WOW Duzzi, it is sad to hear you have had such a bad experience with foiling.

My experience has been different. I got into foiling to avoid slogging or not going out in lower wind conditions. I started on a 1100cm2 foil and formula board and I was able to get out more. Now with bigger foils that has even got better. But it has become more about how much fun I have in those marginal conditions like too up and down, wind line too off shore, too choppy, waves too small.

I still have a blast powered up on my 4.8 and 85L board jumping or playing in the bigger waves. But I find it more fun to be flying though smooth jibes and caving without coming off the foil for 30 min at a time; than slogging out to a wind line, blasting along for a reach and having a hard time planing through a choppy jibe.

There have been many days my windsurfing friends in Maui have had a start and stop days or not even not gone out because the wind was too strong and off shore or too gusty or too light. While I have a blast foiling.

So If I simply counted the number of days I "planed" on a windsurfer vs a foil. The difference in Maui would be small because Maui is pretty windy. However If I tried to measure the fun factor difference on those marginal windsurfing days it would be huge.

Just my 2 cents worth.

I had this same problem when learning and was breaching alot and even launching the whole kit forwards. I raised my boom about an inch above where I would sail for traditional w/ slightly longer harness lines. This put some downward pressure on the mast base but not so much to dive the nose or create too much drag while getting launched.

Also, I moved my sail mast base forward a bit. To me its about getting that feeling like you are standing directly over the foil and can pivot your hips back and forth and inward and outward to adjust the rig power and pressure on the mast base.

It took me a lot of tweaks to get everything dialed in over maybe 50 or so sessions, but well worth it. Don't be afraid to experiment.

Thanks all. Very helpful advices!

I dind't think my experience was so miserable. It's true I lost the good part of last year for windfoiling because of the lockdown and buying the wrong stuff. In my holydays I hired an equipment which I had stable flights with (freeride board and a 1500 cm2 front wing simmer foil). Back at home I bought a glide surf L size foil and put usbox tracks on a 112 l x 73 cm fanatic gecko. I weight 70 kg. By that time the autumn and lockdown came back and the stable conditions to learn left. My coast is not windy at all but full of waves, winter is rainy sometimes and gusty most of the time. Spring is the best season, some good sunny, side shore wave sessions.

I think that I simply need to practise more, but some technical help is welcome. As soon as I find the right settings for foil and sail position in stable conditions, I will get it.

Cheers

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Mucel said..
Thanks all. Very helpful advices!

I dind't think my experience was so miserable. It's true I lost the good part of last year for windfoiling because of the lockdown and buying the wrong stuff. In my holydays I hired an equipment which I had stable flights with (freeride board and a 1500 cm2 front wing simmer foil). Back at home I bought a glide surf L size foil and put usbox tracks on a 112 l x 73 cm fanatic gecko. I weight 70 kg. By that time the autumn and lockdown came back and the stable conditions to learn left. My coast is not windy at all but full of waves, winter is rainy sometimes and gusty most of the time. Spring is the best season, some good sunny, side shore wave sessions.

I think that I simply need to practise more, but some technical help is welcome. As soon as I find the right settings for foil and sail position in stable conditions, I will get it.

Cheers

Hi Mucel

Thanks, - you will get better with time :)

I did have a click on your profile and could see your set up.
Fanatic Gecko 112L with US track installed in front of the normal box + NP Glide.

Look, your foil is fine. This foil is quite easy to learn on and stable.

Your board + position of the US track is your main 'concern' , and I can guarantee this would make a stable flight very very difficult to achieve and you would experience breaching and out of control.

Basically the foil further back makes the flight more stable. If you put it to much forward then the balance is getting very nervous and excessive lift etc. Even small adjustments have a big impact. The US tracks there in front of the normal fin box position is half of your problem,

Other half is the outline of your freeride board ( very pin tail ) = a lot less stable platform.
There is a good reason that the specific foil boards has wide rear ends, as it makes everything a lot easier..
( I guess you would know when you tried the other set up on your holiday?) I assume this was a more specific board etc.

I know that not everybody can go out and buy a dedicated foil board straight away and using their windsurf boards.
In my experience only bigger slalom boards ( wider tails ) + formula board has been used with some success. ( I used both options myself when I started)

I would look for a specific foil board ( used or new ) , it will progress your foiling so much more and you will quickly start to enjoy it.

Cheers
Jesper

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Mucel said..
I began windfoiling last summer but It's difficult for me controling overpowering and avoid breaching.

Like Jesper said above, your foil might be too far forward, which can make control very hard. Try it all the way back in the tracks; only if you can't get it to fly, move it forward a bit.

The other thing you can try (in addition to all the tips above) is to remove the back foot strap. That makes it easier to put the back foot at exactly the right place - generally more forward to prevent breaching. I'd actually remove the front straps, too, but it seems most foilers prefer to use at least the front straps.

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Sail Repair WA said..

Other half is the outline of your freeride board ( very pin tail ) = a lot less stable platform.
...
In my experience only bigger slalom boards ( wider tails ) + formula board has been used with some success. ( I used both options myself when I started)

I disagree, at least partially. I've learned on an old 71 cm wide slalom board and on the Slingshot Flyer, both of which have a narrower tail than the Gecko. I have also had a few beginners use my slalom board, and they had fewer problems than on standard Slingshot boards. My wife learned foiling mostly on a 90 l, 60 cm wide freestyle board.

Of the "normal talent" foil beginners I have seen, those on formula boards made the fastest progress, at least with respect to controlling flight height and avoiding breaches and catapults. But many typical (that is, short) foil boards are not friendly with respect to handling breaches - catapults are a very common result, even for very good foilers. The long length of the Gecko will definitely make recoveries easier.

While I don't think the "pin tail" of the Gecko creates stability problems, it may make learning the foil jibe harder. But at 239 cm and with plenty of extra volume for 70 kg, tacking should be quite easy.

Initially I was breaching fairly often and basically getting destroyed. The thing that helped me the most was having a more experienced buddy ride my kit. He came back and basically said "your gear is unridable", he moved the harness lines forward and maybe adjusted the boom height. Not big changes but I started to do much better. I stopped using those sails and switch to Naish Lifts and I started to progress very quickly.

If you have a mate who can foil good, have him/her try your kit

PS: you do not need foil specific sails, but some windsurfing sails are not good for foiling.

Thanks again. The board I flied stably on holidays was a RRD traditional freeride 71 cm wide with foil ready tuttle box.

Regarding the foil my only doubt is the fuselage. It's a surf fuselage (70 cm), which is 10 cm shorter than the NP glide wind fuselage (80cm). May it have so much influence? I thought I wouldn't need a long fuselage to put the front wing under my body as my US tracks are further of the typical fin box and can adjust exactly which is the best position.

I guess the perfect scenario is to buy specific board+foil of the same brand because it's sure the combination has been tested by the manufacturer and works, but, if it's not possible, it's better to have us tracks to configure it, though it takes some time...

Anyway, if the equipment is reasonably easy, testing different configurations and spending many more hours in the water with stable winds I guess will be enough.

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Mucel said..
Thanks again. The board I flied stably on holidays was a RRD traditional freeride 71 cm wide with foil ready tuttle box.

Regarding the foil my only doubt is the fuselage. It's a surf fuselage (70 cm), which is 10 cm shorter than the NP glide wind fuselage (80cm). May it have so much influence? I thought I wouldn't need a long fuselage to put the front wing under my body as my US tracks are further of the typical fin box and can adjust exactly which is the best position.

I guess the perfect scenario is to buy specific board+foil of the same brand because it's sure the combination has been tested by the manufacturer and works, but, if it's not possible, it's better to have us tracks to configure it, though it takes some time...

Anyway, if the equipment is reasonably easy, testing different configurations and spending many more hours in the water with stable winds I guess will be enough.

The short fuselage does not make you breach more, but it makes things very maneuverable so any weight shifts or change in mast foot pressure lead to excessive up/down or left/right movement.

Even if you get the breaching under control, I think you will find foil gybing a short fuselage nearly impossible.

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thedoor said..
Initially I was breaching fairly often and basically getting destroyed. The thing that helped me the most was having a more experienced buddy ride my kit. He came back and basically said "your gear is unridable", he moved the harness lines forward and maybe adjusted the boom height. Not big changes but I started to do much better. I stopped using those sails and switch to Naish Lifts and I started to progress very quickly.

If you have a mate who can foil good, have him/her try your kit

PS: you do not need foil specific sails, but some windsurfing sails are not good for foiling.

I agree with Door here. Naish Lifts combined with low-aspect foil (SSi76) elevated my game more than anything while learning. Their softness allows you to really feel what is going on with the foil. It's not necessarily the best all-around sail as it overpowers easy and if it's hard to get one where you live, I rec using the softest sail possible (i.e. 3 batten wave or something). Note the Lift does not work with high aspect wings, too unstable.

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Mucel said..
Regarding the foil my only doubt is the fuselage. It's a surf fuselage (70 cm), which is 10 cm shorter than the NP glide wind fuselage (80cm). May it have so much influence? I thought I wouldn't need a long fuselage to put the front wing under my body as my US tracks are further of the typical fin box and can adjust exactly which is the best position.

Your thinking is correct with respect to the position of the front wing. But a shorter fuse is much less stable, so you'd have to be an excellent foiler to control it. Race foils come with fuses that are up to 115 cm long for more stability.

This means that your foil will go up and down much more quickly when anything changes, for example when you shift your weight, or a gust hits. You do not have much time to react, and as a beginner, your reactions are not yet automatic, so you will breach more.

The other thing that might make life harder for you is that the NP Surf setup comes with a 70 cm mast, while the Wind setup comes with an 80 cm mast. The longer mast also gives you more time to react, and 10 cm more can make a surprising difference. You can learn on 70 cm masts, and you can use them (I do it all the time at shallow spots), but you need better control than on longer masts. I see even very good to expert foilers breach and crash on a regular basis when they are forced to use shorter masts. The 2019 NP Surf foil used an even shorter mast (65 cm).

You'll definitely have an easier time learning if you upgrade your gear. The cheapest change would be the Wind fuselage, at about $160. But since that would move the front wing 10 cm forward, you'd have to adjust your stance. Moving the mast base forward would be part of that, but probably won't be enough. Your feet probably would need to be in front of the foot straps, so you may as well remove them, at least until you've got reasonable height control.

I hope what you say about longer fuze is true.
Naish 79 places the front wing 1" farther BACK on the board compared to Naish windfoil 64.