In action:

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windara said...

Tang said...
Thanks for that Chris. At the moment 28" is looking good.
Cheers

Hey Tang, Did you end up placing an order for that board? What about the tail? Did you go with the big sharp fish or change it? I was thinking about wandering down to their factory for a look since its in my neighbourhood :)

Yep, the little beauty will be starting to emerge shortly, I expect...went with the double swallow (sounds good as a fangtail as per board bumps, too), though we did talk about taking the edge off the pointy bits. In the end Simon and I went with 7'8" x 28 1/4" x 4 1/4" and 110litres. It's 12 litres more foam than the 7'10" airborne I've got, so I can be a bit lazy on it, and with my back I thought I better get the hang of it and then move down a notch later if I need to. Little less thickness and a bit more width for the relentless wind and chop down here.

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Tang said...

windara said...

Tang said...
Thanks for that Chris. At the moment 28" is looking good.
Cheers

Hey Tang, Did you end up placing an order for that board? What about the tail? Did you go with the big sharp fish or change it? I was thinking about wandering down to their factory for a look since its in my neighbourhood :)

Yep, the little beauty will be starting to emerge shortly, I expect...went with the double swallow (sounds good as a fangtail as per board bumps, too), though we did talk about taking the edge off the pointy bits. In the end Simon and I went with 7'8" x 28 1/4" x 4 1/4" and 110litres. It's 12 litres more foam than the 7'10" airborne I've got, so I can be a bit lazy on it, and with my back I thought I better get the hang of it and then move down a notch later if I need to. Little less thickness and a bit more width for the relentless wind and chop down here.

Awesome!! Bet your stoked. I spoke with Simon today and he is drawing up something for me. Maybe slightly wider and couple of litres extra. You getting FCS boxes? Was also thinking of going for the big swallow tail instaed of the fang. Not sure yet. Cheers

Stoked alright, and more stoked watching the way Casso's board goes. Am getting FCS plugs, not sure of the terminology these days but too many old good fins (and c-drives) to not go with the 2-plug system. The theory behind the fang I understand to be about increasing tail bite when turning on rail, but I also asked about the single/chunky swallow option. I'd prefer the hold the fang is supposed to give. I'll look forward to comparing notes soon cheers

Go for the swallow version; swallow version provide less area to bury while turning than a fang tail.

Hang on, I must be wrong. I thought the double swallow was a fang tail as per boardbumps' erudite description...? Wouldnt the double swallow give you less tail rail, planing area and volume in turns...?

I reckon Tang get parrallel rails and the hole in the tail between rails, this will allow you to bury your fins , rail and planning area up the board as close as possible of your front fin.
On my board more than the flex of the BB, this the fish tail i like more.

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Tang said...
Hang on, I must be wrong. I thought the double swallow was a fang tail as per boardbumps' erudite description...? Wouldnt the double swallow give you less tail rail, planing area and volume in turns...?

Im getting confused to......is the fang tail the one with three points- double swallow?? Simone reckons its that outside point you need for the bite in turns.

I think I'm confusing myself here....the double swallow retains the rail length, yet decreases the tail area when you're on that rail so that it's planing area and volume are reduced in the tail rail in contact with the water, and it is thus able to bite into the water and hold on better through a turn. Perhaps I should consult Dr Seuss on a clearer explanation using tweetle beetles (sorry, parent of young kids in-joke...)

im liking your progress on the bodyboard cadaver side of things, kami, and dream of riding a 6'9" again.......

cheers

Casso is there an opportunity for you to take a video of how the board performs not so much on the wave but paddling out in testing conditions as well as general movement waiting for a wave
and catching one. Whilst I really enjoy watching how the board performs on the wave I think it would add real value to what happens outside that moment given how the the wave experience is
really a very small part comparatively speaking.

Cheers Ozzie

Il let Casso replies to Ghostman question how about stability.
I come back on tail shape which is a combo of planning area, fins and size position, bottom shape and more.
On this pic from Casso's movie, this picture is showing the water flow behind the tail .
Full of knowledge about water flow...



D'ont mind Casso's butt

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Tang said...

TheGoodDr said..

Caution, I have the scaled-up version at 115 litres, dimensions are 7'8" x 28 1/4" x 4 1/4".

Casso is not exaggerating in any way, these boards are fast, loose and like on rails through roundhouse cutties.

Have had mine for a couple of months now and still come in frothin, the extra speed is insane

Bob.

Gday Bob,
I'm on the verge of ordering one this weekend and wondering what your dimensions are ie height and weight, for the 7'8"? Simon's given me that as a starting point, but I am wondering if 115L is a smidge too much foam....
cheers

Hi Bob, Im looking at ordering a board very similar to yours as well. Im 6'1 and bout 92 kilo and was going to go 7'10 by 29 and a bit and 115 litres .Are you happy with that tail and how is it to paddle, since we are similar size? Im currently on an 8'2 by 121 litres which obviously floats me well, but have paddled a 96 litre around in flat water for an hour? Cheers

Kami,

What point are you trying to make? Can you expand more about the relevance of tail shape please. I am just trying to establish in my own mind how that translate to board performance when NOT on the wave. I think a lot of people get stuck on how a board reacts on the wave but ignore what happens before that stage. Just remember the riding of a wave is a very small part of the Stand Up experience.

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ghost4man said...
Kami,

What point are you trying to make? Can you expand more about the relevance of tail shape please. I am just trying to establish in my own mind how that translate to board performance when NOT on the wave. I think a lot of people get stuck on how a board reacts on the wave but ignore what happens before that stage. Just remember the riding of a wave is a very small part of the Stand Up experience.

My point of view about SUP is quite different of your, for me SUP is in first a big board with a paddle to surf its width off the 28" out of reach of water with our chest and arms even if you are a big guy . So it's simply a big SB or LB with paddle as an extension hands.
This is the ergonomic i put on my board i design for own use .
If you may understand my english i would say about paddling performance that is opposite to the surfing performance . More you get easy paddle performances less it is enhancing the surfing ones.
The main parameter involving these 2 aspects is the center of flotation and width. More you put this center close to forward the max width more you get a paddling performance. Pulling back the flotation leaving max width forward give an hot stuff while riding the wave. And more when you stand on a minimum board volume as equal ratio weight volume as i like. At this step needs good surfing conditions , no chops, water moves...

I don't put any proselytism that way but i just share what i love, making the more enjoyable boards and surf them.

If you ask me later on i can put a diagram explaining why and also why Casso's board is a good mixed of paddling and surfing performances and the last point will be the ratio weight volume which is a matter of confort or radical surfing attitude.

Cheers

Hi Kami,

I am struggling a bit with your English so could you try and expand more on what you are saying. Perhaps diagrams would help.

Cheers Ozzie

Hey ghost4man, I reckon your over thinking it, tail shape performance really only comes into play when surfing wave.... if your referring to paddling while waiting for a wave or paddling onto wave then tail shape doesn't really matter... as long as board has volume/stability that your comfortable with while paddling around then jobs right......

Surfing on the wave is a big part of SUP experience IMO

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ghost4man said...
Casso is there an opportunity for you to take a video of how the board performs not so much on the wave but paddling out in testing conditions as well as general movement waiting for a wave
and catching one.

Here are some snippets of me paddling the 7'0" Minion (not my one). This board is 95L and I am 86kg.

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Casso said...

ghost4man said...
Casso is there an opportunity for you to take a video of how the board performs not so much on the wave but paddling out in testing conditions as well as general movement waiting for a wave
and catching one.

Here are some snippets of me paddling the 7'0" Minion (not my one). This board is 95L and I am 86kg.

For such a small board you paddle it really well!

Casso that is precisely what I was looking for. I agree you paddle that board very very well for that size. Pretty crappy conditions too. The board floats you very well especially considering you are over 85kg. Very impressed mate.

Cam I dont disagree with you as to the importance of riding the wave however my point remains. If Casso spent most of his time falling off or having to lie in a prone position then you would get the point that I was making. Its clear that the guy has some real all round skill for a board this small.

Oz

I think what kami was saying is that paddling performance and surfing performance are somewhat antinomic design-wise. And for his personal taste, he tries to maximize surfing performance...

My personal experience with paddling short SUPs:
- After some time, your body get used to it. But it is still tiring, and as soon as you lose your concentration... you lose your balance!
- Minion, Simmons, Wombats planshapes are incredibly stabler than "pumpkin seed" templates. and they paddle faster too, as the rocking motion of the board from paddling does not make the board change its behavior too much
- Short is addictive :-) Once you tasted it, you will always want one in your quiver. I still like long boards, but seeing nice clean chest-high powerful waves will make me crave for a ShortSUP, just as smelling a perfect cheese will make me drool for a good red wine :-)

A "FL*Ck" Of minions

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colas said...
I think what kami was saying is that paddling performance and surfing performance are somewhat antinomic design-wise. And for his personal taste, he tries to maximize surfing performance...

My personal experience with paddling short SUPs:
- After some time, your body get used to it. But it is still tiring, and as soon as you lose your concentration... you lose your balance!
- Minion, Simmons, Wombats planshapes are incredibly stabler than "pumpkin seed" templates. and they paddle faster too, as the rocking motion of the board from paddling does not make the board change its behavior too much
- Short is addictive :-) Once you tasted it, you will always want one in your quiver. I still like long boards, but seeing nice clean chest-high powerful waves will make me crave for a ShortSUP, just as smelling a perfect cheese will make me drool for a good red wine :-)

Colas I dont deny the point that you are making and I guess to a large extent the evolution of SUPing will head more into the direction of more refined shapes which will look to address this antinomic design. At the moment there is a noticeable gap between boards which are overly small, comparatively speaking and having the capacity to paddle well AND surf. The problem is that as you go smaller paddling and all its concomitant elements become more and more problematic. I would again reiterate that focus on wave performance is rather short sighted if you preclude from this discussion the element of the lead up to getting on the wave. Stability and paddle power become exponentially more crucial on the shorter sups. I am quite excited in getting the opportunity to ride this board and looking at Casso's video instilled me with greater surety.

Cheers Ozzie

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lookielookie said...
A "FL*Ck" Of minions



hmmmmmmmm. is that inside the shaping bay at "deep" ?

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ghost4man said...

colas said...
I think what kami was saying is that paddling performance and surfing performance are somewhat antinomic design-wise. And for his personal taste, he tries to maximize surfing performance...

My personal experience with paddling short SUPs:
- After some time, your body get used to it. But it is still tiring, and as soon as you lose your concentration... you lose your balance!
- Minion, Simmons, Wombats planshapes are incredibly stabler than "pumpkin seed" templates. and they paddle faster too, as the rocking motion of the board from paddling does not make the board change its behavior too much
- Short is addictive :-) Once you tasted it, you will always want one in your quiver. I still like long boards, but seeing nice clean chest-high powerful waves will make me crave for a ShortSUP, just as smelling a perfect cheese will make me drool for a good red wine :-)

Colas I dont deny the point that you are making and I guess to a large extent the evolution of SUPing will head more into the direction of more refined shapes which will look to address this antinomic design. At the moment there is a noticeable gap between boards which are overly small, comparatively speaking and having the capacity to paddle well AND surf. The problem is that as you go smaller paddling and all its concomitant elements become more and more problematic. I would again reiterate that focus on wave performance is rather short sighted if you preclude from this discussion the element of the lead up to getting on the wave. Stability and paddle power become exponentially more crucial on the shorter sups. I am quite excited in getting the opportunity to ride this board and looking at Casso's video instilled me with greater surety.

Cheers Ozzie

Hey ghostman, I see what u are getting at but hey....casso looks like hes having a ball, he rides awesome, and I don't mind riding in those little crappy conditions sometimes to after a day at work or if that's all there is on offer. Guess that's what makes this sport interesting, if you like it shorter....have a short board or have fun on whatever you have :)

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ghost4man said...
focus on wave performance is rather short sighted

Well, it depends if you have a quiver or not.

A guy having only one board will try to have a good all-around compromise (I guess around 7'6 - 7'10" for me)

But when you have many (7 for me) boards in the van, you want your boards to focus on different aspects, otherwise you will end up with too much overlapping if all are compromises.

This said, I think the Minion approach offers quite a good compromise between surfing performance and paddling ease. I wont say paddling speed, as it is constrained by the length, but ease, in that on these short lengths, trying to paddle very hard to get out of the impact zone of catch a shifting peak will make the board rock & roll a lot, I think more and more that it is important to have shapes that do not change behaviour too much through these motions. The "wide everywhere" ( but not necessarily with a large max width overall) planshape seem the best to give a steady paddling experience.

I am just not yet convinced by the square nose. Is the added stability worth the brake effect when ploughing in the water?

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colas said...

I am just not yet convinced by the square nose. Is the added stability worth the brake effect when ploughing in the water?

Colas this is not a problem, in fact the square nose provides better stability in those awkward take-offs, but is not an issue with catching when riding in normal surf stance on the wave.
The nose does catch a small amount when nose riding but this is minimal. They actually nose ride extremely well, far better than other short sups I have ridden.
The surfing experience on the minion feels so natural, different to what I initially expected when I first saw one.

Is there anyone on the Central Coast(NSW) that has the minion that I could test ride please?

Cheers Ozzie

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colas said...

ghost4man said...
focus on wave performance is rather short sighted

Well, it depends if you have a quiver or not.

A guy having only one board will try to have a good all-around compromise (I guess around 7'6 - 7'10" for me)

But when you have many (7 for me) boards in the van, you want your boards to focus on different aspects, otherwise you will end up with too much overlapping if all are compromises.

This said, I think the Minion approach offers quite a good compromise between surfing performance and paddling ease. I wont say paddling speed, as it is constrained by the length, but ease, in that on these short lengths, trying to paddle very hard to get out of the impact zone of catch a shifting peak will make the board rock & roll a lot, I think more and more that it is important to have shapes that do not change behaviour too much through these motions. The "wide everywhere" ( but not necessarily with a large max width overall) planshape seem the best to give a steady paddling experience.

I am just not yet convinced by the square nose. Is the added stability worth the brake effect when ploughing in the water?

Colas,

I think what is happening here is that the evolution of StandUp Paddling is such that it was always an inevitable outcome that the boards would get shorter simply due to the fact that people progress very quickly from that paddling in the ocean and enjoying the scenery to getting on a wave which is a lot more dynamic experience. As is often the case manufacturers and surfers start to push the envelope in terms of design which has resulted in the boards getting shorter. The smaller boards perform a lot better on the wave in terms of being able to throw it around and yes I know that there are still a lot of guys that are content in just going for an evening stroll when catching a wave but the fact remains we want more out of the board. I cant comment on the efficacy of the square nose on this board due to the fact that I have not ridden the board so am very keen to do so but watching Casso on those videos seemed to point very heavily that your concerns about the possibility of the break effect are maybe unfounded(?) Sufficed to say that an intuitive understanding of what may work does not necessarily translate into an actual outcome. I personally feel excited at the innovative designs that are being promoted which we can only benefit from. The real area of improvement must surely reside in a compromise between paddling and surfing as the board gets shorter. The question remains, is it possible to have a board that surfs dynamically as well as facilitate ease of paddling as the boards get shorter and reach that critical length?

Chees Ozzie

Hey Casso, any agents on south coast of nsw ? Where can we demo one of these ?
They look perfect for the typical on shore NE slop we surf every summer.

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ghost4man said...

colas said...

ghost4man said...
focus on wave performance is rather short sighted

Well, it depends if you have a quiver or not.

A guy having only one board will try to have a good all-around compromise (I guess around 7'6 - 7'10" for me)

But when you have many (7 for me) boards in the van, you want your boards to focus on different aspects, otherwise you will end up with too much overlapping if all are compromises.

This said, I think the Minion approach offers quite a good compromise between surfing performance and paddling ease. I wont say paddling speed, as it is constrained by the length, but ease, in that on these short lengths, trying to paddle very hard to get out of the impact zone of catch a shifting peak will make the board rock & roll a lot, I think more and more that it is important to have shapes that do not change behaviour too much through these motions. The "wide everywhere" ( but not necessarily with a large max width overall) planshape seem the best to give a steady paddling experience.

I am just not yet convinced by the square nose. Is the added stability worth the brake effect when ploughing in the water?

Colas,

I think what is happening here is that the evolution of StandUp Paddling is such that it was always an inevitable outcome that the boards would get shorter simply due to the fact that people progress very quickly from that paddling in the ocean and enjoying the scenery to getting on a wave which is a lot more dynamic experience. As is often the case manufacturers and surfers start to push the envelope in terms of design which has resulted in the boards getting shorter. The smaller boards perform a lot better on the wave in terms of being able to throw it around and yes I know that there are still a lot of guys that are content in just going for an evening stroll when catching a wave but the fact remains we want more out of the board. I cant comment on the efficacy of the square nose on this board due to the fact that I have not ridden the board so am very keen to do so but watching Casso on those videos seemed to point very heavily that your concerns about the possibility of the break effect are maybe unfounded(?) Sufficed to say that an intuitive understanding of what may work does not necessarily translate into an actual outcome. I personally feel excited at the innovative designs that are being promoted which we can only benefit from. The real area of improvement must surely reside in a compromise between paddling and surfing as the board gets shorter. The question remains, is it possible to have a board that surfs dynamically as well as facilitate ease of paddling as the boards get shorter and reach that critical length?

Chees Ozzie

I got barrel in over head wave on my last session an made it! on my a 6'4"

I'm sure that Casso's board is not made only for sloppies, crappies waves, it is going to work unreal in good surf as well after some use and practice.

I reckon this board is a turning point in SUP evolution