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Yara said..
Maybe Australia should make a "reef runner" version, with a heavier double bottom, and sacrificial bilge keels to minimise damage when you scrape over a reef.

It was thinking that although you would have to protect the props and rudders as well. Trouble is if you start making it like a battleship on the bottom it's going to be slow as hell because it will be so heavy. Wonder if jet boat propulsion would work on a vessel that size.

Still might get stranded but might come off in one piece and still float

The Tongan's let rust get so bad on theirs that after minor scratches it had to go back to cairns to have whole sections of the hull cut out. These were the type of scratches our patrol boats would have had cleaned & painted every time it docks.
Someone gave the Tongan King four Grady white looking boats. He didn't know what to do with them so he gave one to his cook & they all sat in the water & wasted away. One or two of the outboards got reused at least.
You also don't want the Tongan Navy out looking for you. They got sent to an Epirb, couldn't find it & came home & the Epirb kept transmitting for two more days!

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THREADPOLICE said..
The Tongan's let rust get so bad on theirs that after minor scratches it had to go back to cairns to have whole sections of the hull cut out. These were the type of scratches our patrol boats would have had cleaned & painted every time it docks.
Someone gave the Tongan King four Grady white looking boats. He didn't know what to do with them so he gave one to his cook & they all sat in the water & wasted away. One or two of the outboards got reused at least.
You also don't want the Tongan Navy out looking for you. They got sent to an Epirb, couldn't find it & came home & the Epirb kept transmitting for two more days!

Is that because our patrol boats are aluminium and theirs are steel hulled?

Your awfully well researched on this

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julesmoto said..

Yara said..
Maybe Australia should make a "reef runner" version, with a heavier double bottom, and sacrificial bilge keels to minimise damage when you scrape over a reef.

It was thinking that although you would have to protect the props and rudders as well. Trouble is if you start making it like a battleship on the bottom it's going to be slow as hell because it will be so heavy. Wonder if jet boat propulsion would work on a vessel that size.

Still might get stranded but might come off in one piece and still float

I would have expected careful navigation to be good enough. They knew the boats draft. Knew where they were. Proceed slowly if in doubt. In tricky place use a helicopter.

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D3 said..
For anyone who has cruised that area, do you have a chart or can grab a screenshot of the plotter showing the island and reef?

I've just looked at a plotter on a boat that works in the region, it shows a 300m gap in ground that covers, nowhere near what I would have expected.

A mate of mine sailing in that area is having a difficult time finding charts with any real confidence.

But these guys are local and one would assume a fair level of local knowledge. But I won't buy into any criticism of them. They are more professionally trained then most of us on here

I might be an alien but I prefer Google Earth for navigating. It doesn't show depth clearly but often shows submerged obstacles, rocks and sand bars and the images are frequently up to date and not requiring a level of transcription in a nav office.

For D3s request for images /charts here is what I make of it. Its only a guess.

There is only one channel into the reef so I guess they took it (Google Earth Image second from bottom). Theres a northern westbound channel and a southern southwestbound channel. From the photo of the boat (bottom) and the headland behind it, and guessing they were heading in not out, I put a mark on the second Google Earth Image down where I guess the ship hit the bottom and where the photo was taken from.

In the immediately below Google Earth image you can see dark shadows under the water where the ship ran aground (in my best guess with limited info) . I have found these are usually rocks or can be seaweed. Either avoid or travel slowly and watch from the bow.

Guestimated ship location 19 07'23"S 178 32'35"W

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Trek said..
I might be an alien but I prefer Google Earth for navigating. It doesn't show depth clearly but often shows submerged obstacles, rocks and sand bars and the images are frequently up to date and not requiring a level of transcription in a nav office.

You would like SASPlanet then Trek - great for navigation!!

www.sasgis.org/

You get all different satellite views, some newer, some older but a great variety. If google is no good in one area Bing could be a lot better or visa versa.
It can be used offline as well.

Yeah, Trek.
I was using Google Earth to figure out where they were.

It's interesting that they're so far from the main channel.
In the eSysman video apparently there's a report they were on their way out but got caught by a wave. Then the tides have shifted them 180 degrees (bow stuck and stern swung in false channel as tide ebbed).

But none of the charts I've looked at have shown much detail at any where near the level that would enable reliable GPS or plotter location.

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D3 said..

THREADPOLICE said..
The Tongan's let rust get so bad on theirs that after minor scratches it had to go back to cairns to have whole sections of the hull cut out. These were the type of scratches our patrol boats would have had cleaned & painted every time it docks.
Someone gave the Tongan King four Grady white looking boats. He didn't know what to do with them so he gave one to his cook & they all sat in the water & wasted away. One or two of the outboards got reused at least.
You also don't want the Tongan Navy out looking for you. They got sent to an Epirb, couldn't find it & came home & the Epirb kept transmitting for two more days!

Is that because our patrol boats are aluminium and theirs are steel hulled?

Your awfully well researched on this

No. Try reading.

? Took the wrong channel,and trying to get back out - Electronic/Eyeball Error ?

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THREADPOLICE said..

D3 said..

THREADPOLICE said..
The Tongan's let rust get so bad on theirs that after minor scratches it had to go back to cairns to have whole sections of the hull cut out. These were the type of scratches our patrol boats would have had cleaned & painted every time it docks.
Someone gave the Tongan King four Grady white looking boats. He didn't know what to do with them so he gave one to his cook & they all sat in the water & wasted away. One or two of the outboards got reused at least.
You also don't want the Tongan Navy out looking for you. They got sent to an Epirb, couldn't find it & came home & the Epirb kept transmitting for two more days!

Is that because our patrol boats are aluminium and theirs are steel hulled?

Your awfully well researched on this

No. Try reading.

Ah, so not only do our Pacific neighbours not know how to operate these vessels, they're irresponsible in how they operate them, and don't bother or are incapable of maintaining them?

Jeez, talk about pile-on. Look at this!

HMAS Adelaide (FFG 01): In 2013, the Adelaide, a guided missile frigate of the Royal Australian Navy, ran aground on Magnetic Island near Townsville during a training exercise. The ship was successfully refloated without significant damage.

HMAS Perth (FFH 157): In 2017, the Perth, an Anzac-class frigate, ran aground near Rockingham during training exercises. The ship was refloated with minimal damage reported.

HMAS Huon (M 82): In 2007, the Huon, a Huon-class minehunter coastal vessel, ran aground on Bramble Reef in the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park. The grounding caused significant damage, requiring repairs that took several months.

What about the poms?

www.abc.net.au/news/2003-09-12/four-sailors-disciplined-over-nottingham-grounding/1477716

And maintenance yea?

news.usni.org/2024/06/21/royal-australian-navy-down-two-replenishment-oilers-as-ships-go-in-for-repairs#:~:text=The%20Royal%20Australian%20Navy's%20(RAN,Supply%20(A195)%20%2Cwhich%20has

And the Fijians weren't even independent of the poms until 1970 so yeah, they've had a navy for what, 5 minutes and it's fair game to take the p**s? When the country who had what was the most powerful navy in the world 300 years ago can't even manage to drop the hook off Lord Howe so the skipper can go and get pissed ashore without ripping a hole in the hull.

^^^ Exactly. And not to mention HMAS Perth (DDG) that ended halfway up a wharf with significant damage. About 1974 I think.

Err JonE
I think you forgot the Endeavor.
But then again the captain wasn't much, was he.

gary

I'm not saying a word.
Couple a 10' draft and a sandpit as a playground and I've run aground a &^%load of times.

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shaggybaxter said..
I'm not saying a word.
Couple a 10' draft and a sandpit as a playground and I've run aground a &^%load of times.

Always wondered if the knowledge that it's only sand or mud makes one a bit more cavalier about running aground. Not to mention having a lift keel.

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JonE said..
Jeez, talk about pile-on. Look at this!

HMAS Adelaide (FFG 01): In 2013, the Adelaide, a guided missile frigate of the Royal Australian Navy, ran aground on Magnetic Island near Townsville during a training exercise. The ship was successfully refloated without significant damage.

HMAS Perth (FFH 157): In 2017, the Perth, an Anzac-class frigate, ran aground near Rockingham during training exercises. The ship was refloated with minimal damage reported.

HMAS Huon (M 82): In 2007, the Huon, a Huon-class minehunter coastal vessel, ran aground on Bramble Reef in the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park. The grounding caused significant damage, requiring repairs that took several months.

What about the poms?

www.abc.net.au/news/2003-09-12/four-sailors-disciplined-over-nottingham-grounding/1477716

And maintenance yea?

news.usni.org/2024/06/21/royal-australian-navy-down-two-replenishment-oilers-as-ships-go-in-for-repairs#:~:text=The%20Royal%20Australian%20Navy's%20(RAN,Supply%20(A195)%20%2Cwhich%20has

And the Fijians weren't even independent of the poms until 1970 so yeah, they've had a navy for what, 5 minutes and it's fair game to take the p**s? When the country who had what was the most powerful navy in the world 300 years ago can't even manage to drop the hook off Lord Howe so the skipper can go and get pissed ashore without ripping a hole in the hull.

Just a small detail but you might want to look at the percentage of ships being operated and the number of years you are talking about hence the amount of trouble free miles navigated.

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julesmoto said..

JonE said..
Jeez, talk about pile-on. Look at this!

HMAS Adelaide (FFG 01): In 2013, the Adelaide, a guided missile frigate of the Royal Australian Navy, ran aground on Magnetic Island near Townsville during a training exercise. The ship was successfully refloated without significant damage.

HMAS Perth (FFH 157): In 2017, the Perth, an Anzac-class frigate, ran aground near Rockingham during training exercises. The ship was refloated with minimal damage reported.

HMAS Huon (M 82): In 2007, the Huon, a Huon-class minehunter coastal vessel, ran aground on Bramble Reef in the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park. The grounding caused significant damage, requiring repairs that took several months.

What about the poms?

www.abc.net.au/news/2003-09-12/four-sailors-disciplined-over-nottingham-grounding/1477716

And maintenance yea?

news.usni.org/2024/06/21/royal-australian-navy-down-two-replenishment-oilers-as-ships-go-in-for-repairs#:~:text=The%20Royal%20Australian%20Navy's%20(RAN,Supply%20(A195)%20%2Cwhich%20has

And the Fijians weren't even independent of the poms until 1970 so yeah, they've had a navy for what, 5 minutes and it's fair game to take the p**s? When the country who had what was the most powerful navy in the world 300 years ago can't even manage to drop the hook off Lord Howe so the skipper can go and get pissed ashore without ripping a hole in the hull.

Just a small detail but you might want to look at the percentage of ships being operated and the number of years you are talking about hence the amount of trouble free miles navigated.

Nope, I don't have a dog in this fight, I just hate people piling on the little guys.

Who can remember this one in 1983. USS Enterprise ran aground on a sand bar. Right in front of everyone. Unbelievably they got it off by sending all the crew to one side (You can see that in the photo) and the shift in balance was enough to get her off.

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D3 said..

THREADPOLICE said..

D3 said..

THREADPOLICE said..
The Tongan's let rust get so bad on theirs that after minor scratches it had to go back to cairns to have whole sections of the hull cut out. These were the type of scratches our patrol boats would have had cleaned & painted every time it docks.
Someone gave the Tongan King four Grady white looking boats. He didn't know what to do with them so he gave one to his cook & they all sat in the water & wasted away. One or two of the outboards got reused at least.
You also don't want the Tongan Navy out looking for you. They got sent to an Epirb, couldn't find it & came home & the Epirb kept transmitting for two more days!

Is that because our patrol boats are aluminium and theirs are steel hulled?

Your awfully well researched on this

No. Try reading.

Ah, so not only do our Pacific neighbours not know how to operate these vessels, they're irresponsible in how they operate them, and don't bother or are incapable of maintaining them?

Yes.

Noted

The one I find surprising,
In 1923 the USN managed to run nine destroyers aground into Honda Point in formation at 20kts, killing 23 and the loss of seven destroyers. Two destroyers were later winched off and saved. The seven wrecks are in the photo above.



I shouldn't throw rocks at others, I hit a bomie at speed once under kite in a catamaran off the GBR.

The dangers of following the leader in formations. Happens in aerial stunt teams too.

Always sail your own boat. Multiple boats don't guarantee safe navigation.

www.nytimes.com/1982/01/19/us/4-pilots-killed-as-stunt-planes-crash-in-desert.html

Happens to the best of us. 1965 driving home from party in thick fog drunk as. Forgot about T intersection went across road through fence into the tip. Mate following my tail lights followed in his mums new two door falcon futura. Police turned up asked if I was ok and take care in future . My 52 Customline started and I drive out through the gate . Mate was not so lucky.

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julesmoto said..

shaggybaxter said..
I'm not saying a word.
Couple a 10' draft and a sandpit as a playground and I've run aground a &^%load of times.

Always wondered if the knowledge that it's only sand or mud makes one a bit more cavalier about running aground. Not to mention having a lift keel.

Yes it did. We were following a 46'er in the bay one day when they went aground in front of us (spring tide). I had room to bear off, but instead we just lifted the keel a few feet and slid on past some very surprised looks. It was ddw though, I wouldn't do that on an angle, moving the keel under any lateral force makes me shudder.
I did manage to run aground right next to the Story Bridge at the old canoe club, right in front of a packed Sunday session brigade at Howard Smith Wharf. By then we were so slick at it, furl headsail, lift keel a bit, motor back, unfurl headsail and off we went, the guests didn't even break their conversation .
One race day all of the deeper draft boats were running aground behind the start line. You just truck up and down the line until you wear enough of a track to enable you to start.
A new crew did hit a bommie once, but other than that they were all soft groundings, so that made a big difference to my stress levels .

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julesmoto said..
The dangers of following the leader in formations.

More military discipline, dead reckoning Nav in confined waters, at speed, in heavy fog.
But if you don't train like you fight, there's no point to the exercise.

From the media release, the Board of Inquiry was pretty scathing of the CO and the operation of the vessel.