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Created by

Craig66 > 9 months ago, 12 Jun 2024

D3

1516 posts

18 Jun 2024 5:18pm

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JonE said..

EastCoastSail said..
I'm very supportive of the Pacific partnership, but $16m of Australian taxpayers money down before salvage and potentially another $16+m for the future replacement.

U reckon we should throw in a plotter with the next one?

I'm not sure how to respond to this one.

JonE

VIC

566 posts

18 Jun 2024 7:51pm

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D3 said..

JonE said..

EastCoastSail said..
I'm very supportive of the Pacific partnership, but $16m of Australian taxpayers money down before salvage and potentially another $16+m for the future replacement.

U reckon we should throw in a plotter with the next one?

I'm not sure how to respond to this one.

EOFY - there's bound to be deals.

D3

1516 posts

18 Jun 2024 6:30pm

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JonE said..

D3 said..

JonE said..

EastCoastSail said..
I'm very supportive of the Pacific partnership, but $16m of Australian taxpayers money down before salvage and potentially another $16+m for the future replacement.

U reckon we should throw in a plotter with the next one?

I'm not sure how to respond to this one.

EOFY - there's bound to be deals.

I meant, look at the lagoon transit they were undertaking and tell which plotter you think would have helped.

Chris 249

NSW

3531 posts

19 Jun 2024 9:56pm

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woko said..

Chris 249 said..

Yara said..

D3 said..
Just look at the ATSB list of maritime incidents they've investigated.
The vast VAST majority are groundings

Which is why it is crazy to buy a lightweight boxy yacht with a vulnerable keel.
Back to the patrol boat, it looks like it is on a flat shelf, so hopefully not too much damage.

Where is the actual evidence showing that one type has a better grounding record?

How many times have you gone through old newspapers, sailing books etc from the day when almost all boats had long keels? I've done it and it's interesting how often they were lost after strandings. They hit the bottom with frequency, often knowing it was there but unable to tack because of their long keels. The very first Colin Archer type to cruise Australia, for example, was lost after it hit the bricks because it could not tack in the light wind and heavy swell. Before that it had been almost lost because it couldn't tack in strong winds and heavy swell.

As the owner of some wooden boats I read the wooden boat mags, and it's amazing (and horrifying IMHO) how often they point out that a long keeler tacked without problem. If I had a fin keel monohull in which tacking was ever even the slightest problem I'd find it weird.

If you haven't actually done a research-based analysis of the issue then you've got not real right to call people, including many vastly more experienced than, "crazy".

On a slightly related note, it's interesting to read accounts of races when everyone had gaff rig. They lost spars far more often than we do today.

Hmmm, a prudent sailor would be aware of the navigational dangers and take precautions, long keel/ gaff or triangle sail, fin keel not withstanding
If unsure stand off and evaluate the situation. As to racing gaffs losing spars while racing, all racing pushes rigs and vessels to the limit, and stuff breaks. Ps I find the gaff spray has issues with tacking, but is happy to gybe so around the long way she goes

Sure, but the point is that every type has a weakness if sailed incorrectly, and around here there's a tendency to exaggerate the dangers of one or two features.

julesmoto

NSW

1569 posts

20 Jun 2024 4:32am

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D3 said..

JonE said..

EastCoastSail said..
I'm very supportive of the Pacific partnership, but $16m of Australian taxpayers money down before salvage and potentially another $16+m for the future replacement.

U reckon we should throw in a plotter with the next one?

I'm not sure how to respond to this one.

Maybe we should let China do it in return for naval bases.

D3

1516 posts

20 Jun 2024 8:22am

Nah, best not to let China get too involved.

It's all a balancing act.
We want to support their ability to secure their own waters but in a way that promotes their own independence.
It helps Australia if our Pacific neighbours are stable and effective nations. (How many billions worth of meth did they intercept in Fiji early this year?)

Buuuuuuutttttt we don't want to push too much otherwise we drastically interfere with their sovereignty.
China seems not to have the same concerns.

Providing them with an essentially obligation free patrol boat has value to Australia, but there has to be a limit or it cost us too much and affect them negatively.

THREADPOLICE

44 posts

20 Jun 2024 11:21am

The Australian representatives in Tonga were banned from going to sea on the Tongan boat due to health & safety concerns.

Trek

NSW

1194 posts

20 Jun 2024 2:22pm

I thought it was Fijian.

D3

1516 posts

20 Jun 2024 1:23pm

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THREADPOLICE said..
The Australian representatives in Tonga were banned from going to sea on the Tongan boat due to health & safety concerns.

Yep, do you know which safety reasons they were?

julesmoto

NSW

1569 posts

20 Jun 2024 4:16pm

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D3 said..
Nah, best not to let China get too involved.

It's all a balancing act.
We want to support their ability to secure their own waters but in a way that promotes their own independence.
It helps Australia if our Pacific neighbours are stable and effective nations. (How many billions worth of meth did they intercept in Fiji early this year?)

Buuuuuuutttttt we don't want to push too much otherwise we drastically interfere with their sovereignty.
China seems not to have the same concerns.

Providing them with an essentially obligation free patrol boat has value to Australia, but there has to be a limit or it cost us too much and affect them negatively.

What's it worth not to have a Chinese navy base on our doorstep?

These countries will always be a problem because minuscule bribes are a lot of money to their leaders and in the end we can't compete with Chinese deep pockets.

Trek

NSW

1194 posts

20 Jun 2024 4:48pm

I just read we (Australian Government) are going to pay the recovery cost!!

D3

1516 posts

20 Jun 2024 3:00pm

Recovery, probably because if we don't it will just sit there like Kiros did.

Marine traffic has a couple of tugs on site. But no news about what the plan is. Having tugs on standby is going to start racking up the costs

D3

1516 posts

24 Jun 2024 1:27pm

YouTube ? SuperYacht News
60+ views ? 12 hours ago
VIDEO: Fiji Navy Boat Grounded on Reef | SY Clip

D3

1516 posts

24 Jun 2024 1:28pm

www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DD5RnRDzLgbQ&ved=2ahUKEwjm1vXZwPOGAxUBqFYBHTZRDVcQwqsBegQIDRAG&usg=AOvVaw3OQ6B9KJRA0UWLThas2LBM

julesmoto

NSW

1569 posts

26 Jun 2024 9:44am

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D3 said..
www.google.com/url

That's a ridiculous width channel to take that ship through unless there is absolutely no wind and no tide and even then it's dodgy.

I bet it's hard to get good paying jobs in Fiji so as an incentive to do their job well the captain should be fired and sent back to collecting coconuts.

Meanwhile it looks like we have ordered a couple more at 39 million apiece to give away. Then again who cares about firing the captain if daddy just gives you a new one for free.

www.navaltoday.com/2024/06/24/australia-orders-two-additional-guardian-class-patrol-boats-from-austal/

Toph

1875 posts

26 Jun 2024 9:21am

The contract is worth $39m. Not $39m a piece, and it needs to be done to keep the Pacific nations on side.

julesmoto

NSW

1569 posts

26 Jun 2024 12:28pm

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Toph said..
The contract is worth $39m. Not $39m a piece, and it needs to be done to keep the Pacific nations on side.

Couldn't agree more we don't want Chinese bases all over the place. Doesn't alter the fact that the captain should be fired.

D3

1516 posts

26 Jun 2024 11:52am

I wonder how many times they have successfully transited that particular reef?

Is it something they do regularly? I imagine they have some pretty isolated communities that have similar navigation issues.

How will incidents like this affect their appetite for risk in the future?

troubadour

NSW

334 posts

26 Jun 2024 5:08pm

This isn't the first time. They put a Pacific Class Patrol Boat gifted by Australia on a reef in about 2016. It was towed backwards into Cairns for repair. Couldn't be towed forward because of the damage to the bow.

julesmoto

NSW

1569 posts

26 Jun 2024 6:18pm

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troubadour said..
This isn't the first time. They put a Pacific Class Patrol Boat gifted by Australia on a reef in about 2016. It was towed backwards into Cairns for repair. Couldn't be towed forward because of the damage to the bow.

Clever boys. What were the consequences for the captain of that one? If nothing then surprise surprise that it happened again.

EastCoastSail

343 posts

26 Jun 2024 6:16pm

I don't know any of the details, and no insider knowledge. But this thread assumes human error. The maiden voyage of a new vessel in Fiji, better than average there could have been contributing factors such as propulsion loss or steering failure or even a cascade of smaller issues that diverted attention. Plotter could have had wrong datum set etc, not picked up on the trip over to Fiji.

Fijians are our friends and a proud seafaring race, they would likely be far more embarrassed about this incident than the average Australian.

woko

NSW

1770 posts

26 Jun 2024 8:28pm

Gee Jules I'm sure that the pacific island nations navy's are trained to a high standard, I'd hazard a guess that we just don't give them ships and see how they go ! And the areas of operation are challenging. Hopefully you will get to transit the solway or hook passage this trip north and consider what I would be like in a much bigger vessel

D3

1516 posts

26 Jun 2024 7:49pm

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julesmoto said..

Clever boys. What were the consequences for the captain of that one? If nothing then surprise surprise that it happened again.

Why so antagonistic and dismissive?

In the case of the Samoan boat a few years ago, he suspended and demoted.

JonE

VIC

566 posts

26 Jun 2024 10:37pm

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should be fired and sent back to collecting coconuts.

Flat out racist?

julesmoto

NSW

1569 posts

27 Jun 2024 8:31am

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JonE said..
Flat out racist?

Also known as reality or perhaps common sense.

Trek

NSW

1194 posts

27 Jun 2024 9:07am

I don''t see anything racist suggesting the skipper of that boat might need migrate to a less demanding job. Suggesting that migrating to coconut harvesting is racist demeans the people in the coconut harvesting industry by saying their employment is race based. That is racist.

julesmoto

NSW

1569 posts

27 Jun 2024 9:36am

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Trek said..
I don''t see anything racist suggesting the skipper of that boat might need migrate to a less demanding job. Suggesting that demeans the people in the coconut harvesting industry by saying their employment is race based. That is racist.

Look up the average wage in Fiji for non-indians who arent in government jobs like the army navy or a doctor or something. Almost all agriculture related. Again clueless I'll informed people ignore reality and common sense and love to use emotive terms like racism.

Of course if you want to talk about racism Fiji pretty much tops the list as they have had multiple revolutions where minority indigenous Fijians of which the full armed forces is comprised conductor revolutions to overturn elections in which the very significant Indian population has won majorities.

This is my last post on the matter as it is way outside the scope of this forum which I wouldn't have raised unless people had leveled personal and misguided erroneous criticisms at me.

D3

1516 posts

27 Jun 2024 7:52am

For anyone who has cruised that area, do you have a chart or can grab a screenshot of the plotter showing the island and reef?

I've just looked at a plotter on a boat that works in the region, it shows a 300m gap in ground that covers, nowhere near what I would have expected.

THREADPOLICE

44 posts

27 Jun 2024 10:59am

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D3 said..

THREADPOLICE said..
The Australian representatives in Tonga were banned from going to sea on the Tongan boat due to health & safety concerns.

Yep, do you know which safety reasons they were?

Hitting reefs / sinking / dying.

Yara

NSW

1314 posts

27 Jun 2024 2:20pm

Maybe Australia should make a "reef runner" version, with a heavier double bottom, and sacrificial bilge keels to minimise damage when you scrape over a reef.

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