While in the learning phase of foiling it is better to be slightly overpowered use a kite size you would use for a tt, smaller kites are great for the more experienced riders but they are way more efficient than a learner and can recover the kite quicker hence less crashes (it’s a common mistake to see a guy foiling and looking cool, so you check out the kite size and try to go with the same). Learn to ride with your kite higher than normal so as not to get overpowered so quickly once you transition from board on water to fully foiling. While the board is on the water you need that bigger size kite due to the large amount of drag you are creating, as soon as you start to foil 85% of the drag disappears and now you are overpowered, so it is a compromise between drag and power. If you have a race bar this can help as there is normally more travel in the depower range. The up side is you will find it easier to relaunch with the bigger size kite in low wind conditions. As you improve you will need to go down in kite size. Hope this is of some help!

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snalberski said..
So I've had 4 sessions now on my new Sroka foil. Limited success more connected to conditions / kite choice than anything else. Last session I got my front foot pressure right and started a good run with the board on the water. Then I crashed and couldn't relaunch. This is the common scenario till now.
I've tried an 8m 10m 12m all in marginal conditions.... around 13-15knts. Not being able to relaunch means pretty much end of session after usually only one or two water starts.
The obvious solution is to choose conditions in which relaunch is easily possible but that means above 15knts. But then I may get into over powered region.
What kite / wind conditions are people learning in?

It's easy to blame the conditions and the equipment for a lack of progression.

Yesterday's wind was as good as it gets for learning to foil, not too light, not too strong, not too gusty. In the majority of kite spots around the world, this would be considered an awesome day for kiting in general. There were guys kiting in 9-10-12m kites and two of them with pure C-shape kites. They sometimes crashed and managed to relaunch, not that it was super easy but they still managed without much effort. Some of my ex-students learning to ride were doing decent runs on twin tips and with a weak 10.5m kite @85kg.

In conditions like we had yesterday, at your weight, I wouldn't recommend a kite much bigger than 10m for learning to hydrofoil. A bigger kite would get you up on the board easier with less effort, but you will pick up and excessive amount of speed very quickly which will lift your foil out of the water instantly...and crash. You would also have to ride with the bar all the way out: not ideal.

The majority of kiters I see getting into hydrofoil have a solid kiting background in directional board kiting, some raceboard experience and the ability to kite and relaunch easily in sub 15 knots conditions. With that sort of experience and background you would very rarely be crashing your kite when you fall off the board. In your case you crash the kite almost every time you crash from the board, and this is all a matter of flying skills.

Simply put, you need to improve your overall flying skills, relaunching skills and board skills in lighter winds. Get back on a surfboard, or even better a raceboard or Sector if you can find one (you can buy second hand sectors for super cheap these days) and use smaller kites than you were used to. Remember you've been kiting overpowered with kites that were at least 2-3 meters too big for a long time, which doesn't help.

At the moment you're giving yourself too much of a challenge given your actual skill level. The first step to learning to hydrofoil is to ride the board flat for long distances without trying to lift the foil out of the water. This would be very easy to do if you had some experience on raceboards or at least more experience in riding directional boards in a variety of conditions.

My advice would be to put the foil board aside for a moment and get back on a directional board / raceboard in 15 knots with a 9-10m kite until it becomes easy and you don't need to think about what the kite is doing.

Learning to hydrofoil will put every aspect of your kiting skills to the ultimate test and highlight your weaknesses. The best approach is to be humble, take a step back and give yourself easier, more realistic goals.

Christian

Alot of good advice, but to some part Id have to disagree Christian.
Get intouch with one of the race crew, and have a chat to them about the tricks for launching in light wind. In some conditions there will never be enough wind to turn the kite up off the water but it is still possible to relaunch.
Also ask before heading out what size they using and what size they think you should be using, and keep an eye on them, if they head in it might be conditions are dropping off.

You certainly can fly much smaller once you comfortable, but too small will make learning fustrating as all you focus is on flying kite to generate power, have enough power in you kite for tention to keep you steady while you concentrate on you board skills.
Going through the process with other boards would help, but simply getting stuck in and learning the foil will get you riding even quicker.
Once on the water, again ask for advise, the foiling crew can follow you and see what mistakes you making. They've all been through it and are happy to help.
See you on the water later today, its big kites today

Learning as part of a group will always be quicker,
Kiting with a group will see you progress much quicker than going han solo.
Push yourself to travel upwind & downwind, its albout making the effort & attempting too. It wont be easy or feel comfortable, but push your own limits and soon enough you'll suprise yourself.

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snalberski said..
....
The obvious solution is to choose conditions in which relaunch is easily possible but that means above 15knts. But then I may get into over powered region.
What kite / wind conditions are people learning in?

I use a 10m in about 15 knots. The things that help the most:
- I have been kiting for 15 years. I rarely crash the kite.
- The 10m has great handling and I can keep it in the air really easily in 15 knots.

- By far the most important thing is that I am past the desperate and dangerous stage and quite relaxed. I'm not fighting to do anything.

I can body drag with the foil horizontal so I can get off the beach and back to my starting point without much drama.

I can happily flop around in the water getting the board into water start position then water start. I don't mind if it takes 3-4-5 attempts to get it all lined up. Fighting the board, or getting exhausted is a sure way to screw up and turn fun into fear.

I can ride reasonably comfortably with the foil down. It's not that hard and you can go super slow and be in control.

The foil runs are not so out of control as to be totally scary. I sometimes surprise myself how far I can go in control and how many times I can recover from losing control.

If things start to get out of control I just drag back to the beach. I can stand and rest then start again, or land the kite, or just stop for the day.

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PKR said..
Alot of good advice, but to some part Id have to disagree Christian.
Get intouch with one of the race crew, and have a chat to them about the tricks for launching in light wind. In some conditions there will never be enough wind to turn the kite up off the water but it is still possible to relaunch.
Also ask before heading out what size they using and what size they think you should be using, and keep an eye on them, if they head in it might be conditions are dropping off.

You certainly can fly much smaller once you comfortable, but too small will make learning fustrating as all you focus is on flying kite to generate power, have enough power in you kite for tention to keep you steady while you concentrate on you board skills.
Going through the process with other boards would help, but simply getting stuck in and learning the foil will get you riding even quicker.
Once on the water, again ask for advise, the foiling crew can follow you and see what mistakes you making. They've all been through it and are happy to help.
See you on the water later today, its big kites today

Learning as part of a group will always be quicker,
Kiting with a group will see you progress much quicker than going han solo.
Push yourself to travel upwind & downwind, its albout making the effort & attempting too. It wont be easy or feel comfortable, but push your own limits and soon enough you'll suprise yourself.

snalberski kites regularly (almost every day) where I work and has been doing so for the last 2 season at least...so my advice is based on actual facts and daily observations rather than speculation.

Since he got his foilboard and as far I observed he hasn't been able to stand up and ride it flat on top of the water for more than just 2-3 meters. Given his current skill level it just seems a bit premature and he would largely benefit from spending a bit more time on a directional board without being overpowered.

You'd have to see it to understand my advice. Also, on an Internet Forum, it's very easy to make us look like better kiters than what we actually are.

Learning to foil demands some advanced flying skills so you don't have to worry about what the kite is doing. There is enough to worry about from the board perspective. In his case there is far too much difficulty in terms coordination between kite flying skills and board skills to have any form of improvement.

When learning to foil you should be at the stage where when you crash you don't crash your kite anymore, or at least very rarely. Also, relaunching in 15 knots should be easy for an ''experienced'' kiter learning to foil.

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PKR said..
Alot of good advice, but to some part Id have to disagree Christian.
Get intouch with one of the race crew, and have a chat to them about the tricks for launching in light wind. In some conditions there will never be enough wind to turn the kite up off the water but it is still possible to relaunch.
Also ask before heading out what size they using and what size they think you should be using, and keep an eye on them, if they head in it might be conditions are dropping off.

You certainly can fly much smaller once you comfortable, but too small will make learning fustrating as all you focus is on flying kite to generate power, have enough power in you kite for tention to keep you steady while you concentrate on you board skills.
Going through the process with other boards would help, but simply getting stuck in and learning the foil will get you riding even quicker.
Once on the water, again ask for advise, the foiling crew can follow you and see what mistakes you making. They've all been through it and are happy to help.
See you on the water later today, its big kites today

Learning as part of a group will always be quicker,
Kiting with a group will see you progress much quicker than going han solo.
Push yourself to travel upwind & downwind, its albout making the effort & attempting too. It wont be easy or feel comfortable, but push your own limits and soon enough you'll suprise yourself.

Thanks for your advise and encouragement. I have learnt over my time that the world is full off knockers who are eager to tell you what you cannot do. Invariably what they really mean is that they wouldn't be able to do it. I've learnt to ignore the knockers and have enough tenacity to focus on the goal and persevere, and it always pays off, even if I dont reach the goal.
One relaunch trick that nearly got me up and going was to pull on the front line opposing the wing tip line I was pulling. I very nearly got the kite up but then I drifted into the Pinaroo triangle and it was all over. How would I get in touch with the race crew?

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snalberski said..

One relaunch trick that nearly got me up and going was to pull on the front line opposing the wing tip line I was pulling. I very nearly got the kite up but then I drifted into the Pinaroo triangle and it was all over. How would I get in touch with the race crew?

Today was a great example, very light and super patchy, even some of the experienced lads had a tough innings getting their kites back up at times.
Completely de-power kite, pull steering ling and grab opposite centre lines ( 2-3meters worth) to turn the kite side on and have it roll up it really the only option in very light but might still take some effort to pull off so you on the right track

Drop a note and introduce yourself on www.facebook.com/groups/perthkiteracing/

Hi Andy,

Thanks for the advice to relaunch today on the river. Definitely got may fair share of practice relaunching today with the light wind

cheers
Ron.

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pilotpete said..
While in the learning phase of foiling it is better to be slightly overpowered use a kite size you would use for a tt, smaller kites are great for the more experienced riders but they are way more efficient than a learner and can recover the kite quicker hence less crashes (it’s a common mistake to see a guy foiling and looking cool, so you check out the kite size and try to go with the same). Learn to ride with your kite higher than normal so as not to get overpowered so quickly once you transition from board on water to fully foiling. While the board is on the water you need that bigger size kite due to the large amount of drag you are creating, as soon as you start to foil 85% of the drag disappears and now you are overpowered, so it is a compromise between drag and power. If you have a race bar this can help as there is normally more travel in the depower range. The up side is you will find it easier to relaunch with the bigger size kite in low wind conditions. As you improve you will need to go down in kite size. Hope this is of some help!

Hi Pete,the exact opposite is what i recommend. ALWAYS USE 1-2 KITE SIZES SMALLER THAN YOU WOULD ON A TWINTIP. You need bugger all kite to foil on each or upwind. ( 7m kites in 15knts is plenty when beginning).The hardest and most dangerous thing in foiling is to handle power and being overcooked. Using smaller sizes will go give you more feel and skills learning to control the foil plus its is way less dangerous.

Also be careful trying to foil in gusty and shifty winds. Not having equal pressure in kite, kite powering up and stalling will make your foil do some crazy things that can be dangerous.Choose some nice days with consistent winds to learn

Had my second session yesterday (total 1.5hrs now). I managed a couple of very shaky runs up on the foil.

I also cut my thigh and wetsuit and got several bruises! An improvement from my previous session when I hit the bottom and chipped the carbon...

I can't wait to get the hang of it.

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INTHELOOP said..

pilotpete said..
While in the learning phase of foiling it is better to be slightly overpowered use a kite size you would use for a tt, smaller kites are great for the more experienced riders but they are way more efficient than a learner and can recover the kite quicker hence less crashes (it’s a common mistake to see a guy foiling and looking cool, so you check out the kite size and try to go with the same). Learn to ride with your kite higher than normal so as not to get overpowered so quickly once you transition from board on water to fully foiling. While the board is on the water you need that bigger size kite due to the large amount of drag you are creating, as soon as you start to foil 85% of the drag disappears and now you are overpowered, so it is a compromise between drag and power. If you have a race bar this can help as there is normally more travel in the depower range. The up side is you will find it easier to relaunch with the bigger size kite in low wind conditions. As you improve you will need to go down in kite size. Hope this is of some help!

Hi Pete,the exact opposite is what i recommend. ALWAYS USE 1-2 KITE SIZES SMALLER THAN YOU WOULD ON A TWINTIP. You need bugger all kite to foil on each or upwind. ( 7m kites in 15knts is plenty when beginning).The hardest and most dangerous thing in foiling is to handle power and being overcooked. Using smaller sizes will go give you more feel and skills learning to control the foil plus its is way less dangerous.

I have it sorted now after 30+ hrs on my LF foil Fish and agree with INTHELOOP - steady light to medium wind using smaller kite than usual has been the key. I weigh 102kg and use 13m for 9 -14, 9m for 15-18 and 7m for 18-22. Above that I use my 9m on a twin tip. I use light kites with plenty of de power (2014 Peter Lynn Escapes 4 struts). Will work on transitions before thinking about a faster / lighter board.

Foil backroll at Pt Danger by the guru

Hey macster,where are u foiling ?
Have a LF foil fish had 4sessions so far all good

Safety comes first. I was gybing and lost my center of gravity as I was switching by foot, then the foil just fold up in front and hit my left shin... didn't hurt at first but felt the hit was pretty hard and when looked it... Ouch! Anyway I continued foiling after that and next day

Lesson learned, should have worn a wetsuit!!

Nice shoots Col.

Dean is having heaps of fun with the foil.

As a kook, I don't think I've seen this asked or answered.

What are the advantages of foiling / why try foiling?

From what I've read you can get out in lighter conditions. Does it just feel amazing? A little like riding powder on 30+ cm day?

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UnderMyUmbrella said..
As a kook, I don't think I've seen this asked or answered.

What are the advantages of foiling / why try foiling?

From what I've read you can get out in lighter conditions. Does it just feel amazing? A little like riding powder on 30+ cm day?

I have been able to get out in less than 10 knots and travel upwind with any dramas. Just don't drop your kite!!!

And it feels exactly like riding powder on those days when you cannot see your knees. It is quite weird compared to the rough choppy stuff I normally ride at Botany Bay. So smooth.

Its not just light wind days. We spend most of our summer ride & racing in 20+ knots.
Several of our race events including state titles was in over 30 knots :)
At one of the regattas we have 31-36 knots for several of the races.
2 weeks ago we were out on 8m & 9m kites in 30+ knots during the winter squalls.
I did the Perth Santa Downwinder on a foil in 35 knots + 7m kite, and then came back up the coast to where i started

Last weekend in France they had races in 25 knots with the top lads doing nearly 40knots top speed!!!

For those who are big on boosting; Race kite + foil + high speed = MASSIVE BOOSTING!!

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bigtone667 said..

UnderMyUmbrella said..
As a kook, I don't think I've seen this asked or answered.

What are the advantages of foiling / why try foiling?

From what I've read you can get out in lighter conditions. Does it just feel amazing? A little like riding powder on 30+ cm day?

I have been able to get out in less than 10 knots and travel upwind with any dramas. Just don't drop your kite!!!

And it feels exactly like riding powder on those days when you cannot see your knees. It is quite weird compared to the rough choppy stuff I normally ride at Botany Bay. So smooth.

If it's even a close resemblance to riding powder I'm gonna have to learn one day then :)

Sounds like it's easy to head upwind as well from what Andy is saying.

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UnderMyUmbrella said..
As a kook, I don't think I've seen this asked or answered.

What are the advantages of foiling / why try foiling?

From what I've read you can get out in lighter conditions. Does it just feel amazing? A little like riding powder on 30+ cm day?

Honestly hard to describe the feeling but once you've got the hang of it is just amazing - I think the powder snow board analogy is spot on.

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UnderMyUmbrella said..
As a kook, I don't think I've seen this asked or answered.

What are the advantages of foiling / why try foiling?

From what I've read you can get out in lighter conditions. Does it just feel amazing? A little like riding powder on 30+ cm day?

From PF on KF:
-----------
I think we all agree on one thing: "The Feel"

Speed means nothing to me, but for some it is awesome, great to have both

The smooth feeling, the POWER you get in marginal winds when foiling, and the awesome nirvana feel you get when carving/jibing both in flat water or waves - it feels like riding waves even in flat water, just even better and more smooth

The new dimension, the "3D" you got now, and that you can ride upwind or downwind just as easy, and mowing the lawn is history, simply NOT possible anymore

The "Feel" is impossible to explain - we try to do it in this thread, but I think those who has never tried it, who are not racing, still dont get it ?

The smooth ride, the ability to have extreme fun, often MORE fun, in light wind than more wind, and to maneuver in both flat water and waves carving and doing tricks and "learning" things, is what it is all about for me

The other plus side is, that if you got family and other obligations - you can now ride EVERY day if you want, meaning, you can ride on the days you have the time for it, and you dont have to be a PITA for everybody else, because they never know if you can come to planned events or not...
And if you are "forced" to go, and it is windy, you will really be a grumpy bastard

This is a thing of the past - you can ride almost whenever you want, so no more "I have to go" situations - you will be much more well balanced and not "desperate" to get out

But still, the major "Big Draw" for me, is the feel

Kiteboy nailed it

Thanks Dave,what a wrap.Your Fully Foiled mate!!!!!!!And me and the wife are bloody Frothing to get into it.My wife being a snow skier and powder really pricked the Ears Up.Yeha she's on board!!!!!!!Also big thanks to Andy and Marvin.

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kiteboy dave said..
From PF on KF:
-----------
blah blah

Just to be clear, I don't wanna claim credit that's not due, it's a Danish guy I think called Peter Frank. He's a prolific contributor to the big forum for 10+ years, he's been through most styles of kites & boards and now one of the keenest foilers, I haven't looked but I wouldn't be surprised if he had the highest post count there... His posts are pretty obvious he loves the smileys

Hey Leigh when I was young I had the experience once of Monoskiing in the French Pyrennes in 1m+ of fresh overnight powder. Amazing, once in a lifetime, carving fresh tracks.. The mono floated over the powder.. I can remember pulling up, putting a pole out to catch myself, and falling straight over, ending up with my head down a metre below the surface and both feet still clicked in above my head. Took me a good few minutes of flailing around to get everything sorted out.

Hey Dave,I have never Skied but it's on the bucket list.Sounds and looks amazing with most amping over fresh powder.All the surfing community at our local Yamba Angourie area gave one of our comrades Steve Lokic the biggest paddle out at Spookys to celebrate his life only 64yrs young.Some Photos on my FB.Lets enjoy life while we can.!!!!!