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BWalnut said..
What makes you say it was 4.5m? Wind dropped off a chunk in the afternoon. Great upwind angles!

In his other 'insta story', he posted the pack-down footage and said it was a 4.5M.

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MidAtlanticFoil said..
Looks like Gwen rocked the 4.5M upwind that same day. Wind must have laid down no?

My video was shot Saturday. 3.1m was the choice.

Sunday was less wind.

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DWF said..

MidAtlanticFoil said..
Looks like Gwen rocked the 4.5M upwind that same day. Wind must have laid down no?

My video was shot Saturday. 3.1m was the choice.

Sunday was less wind.

Thanks Dwight! I've enjoyed your coverage of the scene.

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lobodomar said..

MidAtlanticFoil said..
Looks like Gwen rocked the 4.5M upwind that same day. Wind must have laid down no?

1:1 ratio is amazing. I wonder by how much the current affects such numbers at the Gorge though? What sort of up/down time ratios are people milking from the single skins over there?

I've tried to watch those flow numbers in the Gorge to see how they impact my ratios but I've found that consistently the difference with an inflatable wing is most dramatic going from 3m to 4m, the actual flow seems less relevant in my rides. With a 4m I'm usually 1 down .75 up (1:.75) but 4m isn't super fun for that. 3m inflatables land me at 1:1 year round. 2m inflatables get worse.

I don't think I've gotten 1:1 on the 2.4m or 3m pocket rockets yet. I haven't been riding them super powered up or watching them super close but I'd say I'm at .85:1. It will be cool to see more Paia's on the water and to start chasing them with other brands to see how it compares!

thanks for the user review zarb. Makes a lot of sense. Nothing comes for free. Ideal for upwind shuttle but not as playful as single skins

Anyone else struggling to pack the Paia into the current stash belts on the market? I have the BRM Slim belt which I believe actually has just as much if not a little more volume than the original belt once you push the folded part out. I have trouble wadding up the 3.8m enough to fit easily into the pouch while dry. It barely fits. I can't imagine how one could fit the 4.5m in, much less doing even the 3.8m while on foil. I'm thinking the Paia is going to need a new stash belt design. Or I'm going to need to figure out some water shirt pouch solution.

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hahninthehood said..
Anyone else struggling to pack the Paia into the current stash belts on the market? I have the BRM Slim belt which I believe actually has just as much if not a little more volume than the original belt once you push the folded part out. I have trouble wadding up the 3.8m enough to fit easily into the pouch while dry. It barely fits. I can't imagine how one could fit the 4.5m in, much less doing even the 3.8m while on foil. I'm thinking the Paia is going to need a new stash belt design. Or I'm going to need to figure out some water shirt pouch solution.

I've just got my 4.5m and so far only practiced stashing on land using the ozone belt. It just fits but It's a struggle, especially while holding the bar under the arm and unlike a single skin it's impossible to put the bar and Paia in the belt all at once. I've gone back to using the bar clip I created some time ago. This really helps put the wang into the belt, by giving you much more freedom to use both arms to really stuff it in. I start with the leading edge and put at one end of the belt and work my way until finishing with the trailing edge at the other. Finally the bar can go on top or you can just leave the bar clipped in. I recommend leaving it clipped in. When redeploying with the bar clipped in it's just so much easier to find the centre of the leading edge which is super important for double skins. Using the bar clipped in has always been great for tangle free redeployments. It takes a few seconds to clip in but for double skins the time investment really is worth it. I plan to put a YouTube video up shortly using the bar clipped to stash while on the water. If anyone is interested in trying you can purchase my bar clipped from my Etsy page... www.etsy.com/au/listing/4314124743/?ref=share_ios_native_control. Hope this helps. You could also try a chest mesh. Way more space to put a wang there. I use this one.www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/cabin-crew-cabin-crew-net-organiser-pet-barrier---black/598902.html. Can look a bit dorky but it works extremely well, especially with the clip. This is the Paia in the chest mesh.

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Sheps said..

hahninthehood said..
Anyone else struggling to pack the Paia into the current stash belts on the market? I have the BRM Slim belt which I believe actually has just as much if not a little more volume than the original belt once you push the folded part out. I have trouble wadding up the 3.8m enough to fit easily into the pouch while dry. It barely fits. I can't imagine how one could fit the 4.5m in, much less doing even the 3.8m while on foil. I'm thinking the Paia is going to need a new stash belt design. Or I'm going to need to figure out some water shirt pouch solution.

I've just got my 4.5m and so far only practiced stashing on land using the ozone belt. It just fits but It's a struggle, especially while holding the bar under the arm and unlike a single skin it's impossible to put the bar and Paia in the belt all at once. I've gone back to using the bar clip I created some time ago. This really helps put the wang into the belt, by giving you much more freedom to use both arms to really stuff it in. I start with the leading edge and put at one end of the belt and work my way until finishing with the trailing edge at the other. Finally the bar can go on top or you can just leave the bar clipped in. I recommend leaving it clipped in. When redeploying with the bar clipped in it's just so much easier to find the centre of the leading edge which is super important for double skins. Using the bar clipped in has always been great for tangle free redeployments. It takes a few seconds to clip in but for double skins the time investment really is worth it. I plan to put a YouTube video up shortly using the bar clipped to stash while on the water. If anyone is interested in trying you can purchase my bar clipped from my Etsy page... www.etsy.com/au/listing/4314124743/?ref=share_ios_native_control. Hope this helps.

Besides the challenges of the stow what are your overall first impressions of the Paia? What do you feel the workable wind range is for the 4.5? Is the upwind ability miles ahead of any other wind powered ocean vessel?

Sheps, tell us about your experience with the 4.5! I've got one on order and frothing to try it out.

I'm already planning on using it to get way upwind quick, then possibly swap with a single skin and put the Paia in my waterproof backpack to keep water weight down.

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MidAtlanticFoil said..
Sheps, tell us about your experience with the 4.5! I've got one on order and frothing to try it out.

I'm already planning on using it to get way upwind quick, then possibly swap with a single skin and put the Paia in my waterproof backpack to keep water weight down.

Happy to but still haven't had a chance to get on the water with it. On land flying at the edge of the window it sits noticeably a lot further in the window than a Kanaha so I can see how this will translate to epic upwind pull. The bar is super comfortable on the fingers, the way the Maliko V1 spead the load on all fingers, and trimming the trailing edge with subtle pressure with the rear fingers. No akwatd strain in the wrist by having to twist the wrist forward. I can see myself riding without a harness as being a possible option for the first time. The pull is very different. More constant but without the bottom end grunt when back in the window. I'll most likely miss the Ka'a's amazing low end and way of lining up the wang with the bumps to get going by flying at the back of the window. But this is a new animal with more upwards pull so hopefully it will lighten you somewhat and make pumping up comfortable. Certainly easier on the hands. I plan to use the wang like you suggested. Ride upwind, pack down and pull out a Ka'a. To this end I can easily stuff the 4.5m into an 8L waterproof sack which slings nicely. Can't wait to get out there and share my experience. Excited about long upwind/downwind runs and hearing how you go to so please share your experience when you get yours. Yeww! Happy it packs down to something rather small be it after a little time into this 8L bag. For comparison I use a 5L for the 4.2m Ka'a.

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Sheps said..

MidAtlanticFoil said..
Sheps, tell us about your experience with the 4.5! I've got one on order and frothing to try it out.

I'm already planning on using it to get way upwind quick, then possibly swap with a single skin and put the Paia in my waterproof backpack to keep water weight down.

Happy to but still haven't had a chance to get on the water with it. On land flying at the edge of the window it sits noticeably a lot further in the window than a Kanaha so I can see how this will translate to epic upwind pull. The bar is super comfortable on the fingers, the way the Maliko V1 spead the load on all fingers, and trimming the trailing edge with subtle pressure with the rear fingers. No akwatd strain in the wrist by having to twist the wrist forward. I can see myself riding without a harness as being a possible option for the first time. The pull is very different. More constant but without the bottom end grunt when back in the window. I'll most likely miss the Ka'a's amazing low end and way of lining up the wang with the bumps to get going by flying at the back of the window. But this is a new animal with more upwards pull so hopefully it will lighten you somewhat and make pumping up comfortable. Certainly easier on the hands. I plan to use the wang like you suggested. Ride upwind, pack down and pull out a Ka'a. To this end I can easily stuff the 4.5m into an 8L waterproof sack which slings nicely. Can't wait to get out there and share my experience. Excited about long upwind/downwind runs and hearing how you go to so please share your experience when you get yours. Yeww! Happy it packs down to something rather small be it after a little time into this 8L bag. For comparison I use a 5L for the 4.2m Ka'a.

Thanks!! My buddy just got off the water with his 5.3M in conditions that were gusting into the low 30mph range. He was pretty blown away by the depower. He didn't use a harness (had his line's center point too far back) so he was all hands the whole session and only felt minor fatigue at the end. He described a pretty unreal upwind tack between two landmarks that normally take me like 3-4 tacks and he did it in one go.
His friend was on a 5M ozone early on and swapped to his smallest, 4.3 ozone and was absolutely cooked after the session, with a harness.
He described the takeoff as almost into the wind a bit, so that will be an adjustment. He said it's like 60 / 40 PW to legs versus 20/80 with the single skin.
hope you get some wind!

So why are there still so many lines? Double surface allows for cross ribs that can eliminate 50+% of the attachment points. Total line length could still be cut in half on that thing, long way to go yet...

So I've been out twice on the 3.8m and it's been a struggle. To be fair, I've been launching from LJ and the wind is pretty crappy there. You launch into the swirly wind shadow of Wells Island. And the Paia isn't great about dealing with swirly/inconsistent wind. Plus, I need more handling practice. It's VERY different than the single skins.
One of the big issues I'm facing is that the Paia does not recover well at all if one of the wing tips touches and collects water. In fact, it's almost a guarantee that I'm going in when it happens. What I'm wondering about is whether holes can be strategically placed in the wall between each cell. This might help to reinflate adjacent cells and so if the wing tip cells fill with water, maybe other air filled cells would help push the water out. It might result in better Parawing recovery. Just a thought.

There was an incident with the Paia at a demo day here in the Gorge recently. Skilled/accomplished user couldn't get on foil while in the shipping channel. He ended up stopping/blocking a barge which is a huge deal and should never happen. I share this just to say that it sounds like from his story that the double skin is a very different animal. Don't get yourself overly committed when trying to sort this one out.

His experience:

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BWalnut said..
There was an incident with the Paia at a demo day here in the Gorge recently. Skilled/accomplished user couldn't get on foil while in the shipping channel. He ended up stopping/blocking a barge which is a huge deal and should never happen. I share this just to say that it sounds like from his story that the double skin is a very different animal. Don't get yourself overly committed when trying to sort this one out.

His experience:

Wow thanks for sharing. I tend to ride right next to a major shipping channel, next to the largest naval base in the world and this scenario is my worst nightmare, except container ships won't see me and naval ships will just light me up.
I will take the Paia to the adjacent kiddie pool to get acquainted!

Feedback from a couple failed attempts with the 4.5M Paia:

Wind was around 15-18mph with an inside eddy with the wind and bumps on the outside with current into the wind around 1-2knts.

Ridding the 55L Armie Midlength with 880 foil, then tried my 85L 6'3" DW board. 67KGs.

I tried taxing out with the 4.5M Paia and had almost enough to get going a couple gusts, but not quite enough. If I let the wingtip get close to the water, the 1/3 leading edge closest to the water would annoyingly collapse and fold in. It was very difficult to get back to re-inflate. Keeping the wing at around 45 degrees to the horizon seems to keep this issue at bay. I think it may also be an underpowered thing. After around 5 dips into the water after losing balance, I packed it up into my patagonia sling bag and grabbed the 4.8M Ka'a. Boom, right up.

I tried my 4M Kanaha later and had similar power to the 4.5 Paia, and couldn't get up. Even tried the bigger board and struggled again through the same process. Interestingly, I immediately said i was going to sell that board when I got in. The 55L was easier to get going in the bumps - easier to control direction and balance, and engage in pumping when needed.

All in all, It seems about right going off Greg's wind chart. I need to wait for a day when I'm on my 3.2M or 4M Kanaha before I get the 4.5M Paia out for a go.

Insta post of the 4.8M Ka'a Session: www.instagram.com/reel/DNJXM6bytFl/?igsh=MTRqYTU3N2R6ZWNqag==

It will be interesting to hear if you think the increased size is offset enough by the upwind ability once you get it sorted.

Cool feedback on the boards. I experienced the same thing when I was trying the BRMs. I thought there was no way I would keep riding my slightly positive volume 6'6" and would sell it. Then I switched to the Pocket Rockets and suddenly my situation flipped. My -10l 5'11"x20" that was awesome on the Ka'a wasn't as reliable. The +4l 6'6"x18" turned the corner and became crazy useful.

It's wild how complex it is to sort out the right kits and share knowledge.

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BWalnut said..
It will be interesting to hear if you think the increased size is offset enough by the upwind ability once you get it sorted.

Cool feedback on the boards. I experienced the same thing when I was trying the BRMs. I thought there was no way I would keep riding my slightly positive volume 6'6" and would sell it. Then I switched to the Pocket Rockets and suddenly my situation flipped. My -10l 5'11"x20" that was awesome on the Ka'a wasn't as reliable. The +4l 6'6"x18" turned the corner and became crazy useful.

It's wild how complex it is to sort out the right kits and share knowledge.

Good feedback on the board. I think my 85L to my 67kgs is just a bit too corky. I'm really eyeing the 6'0 60L Pyzel/Lift/Florence board as a sweet spot for my weight.

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MidAtlanticFoil said..
Sheps, tell us about your experience with the 4.5! I've got one on order and frothing to try it out.

I'm already planning on using it to get way upwind quick, then possibly swap with a single skin and put the Paia in my waterproof backpack to keep water weight down.

We had a storm front come through a few days ago and I got several days on the 4.5m Paia. Absolutely blown away by the upwind performance. I put something together on YouTube to share my first impressions. ?si=V3cK0STHnzNgwspA

I had my first session on my 4.5 Paia in 20-25 knots yesterday. Takeaways are that it's really technical to get on foil if underpowered, goes upwind a bit better than my 4.3 Flow in similar conditions (about half a knot better vmg, Flow 4.5kt, Paia 5.0kt vmg). Much less tiring though, I always feel pretty beat after an upwind stint on the flow where the Paia is easy. As the wind got stronger my VMG's improved, so looking forward to more wind for even better upwind performance.

How were the pack downs and redeploys?

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BWalnut said..
How were the pack downs and redeploys?

The bridles are reasonably short and it's pretty docile to collapse so collapse and wad is about the same as my 4.2. it is bulkier though so stowing in my BRM belt is doable but not great. Redeploy is different, where a single skin will just pop open and sort itself out, the paia seems to be prone wrapping itself up instead. I think the tip of holding the A lines to redeploy is good but I haven't had a chance to try it yet.

Pulled out the Paia 3.1m yesterday when the wind started gusting over 20kts for about half hour. Using KT 7' 100L and AFS Silk 1300/43. Really technical and not forgiving. Was definitely on the bottom of the power range. Super light hand pressure. Upwind felt about the same as the Ka'a 4.2m I also had with me. Probably too underpowered for better upwind performance. Definitely a total different flying experience and much more input needed to fly. Lots to learn but probably going to be awesome when super powered up. Trash bagging it feels huge for a 3.1m feels even bigger than the Ka'a 4.2m and likes to stay puffy. The front line redeploy works well just like with the Maliko V1. Will have to work out a wrap to get it packed down small fast. Bring on the good winds!

I had another session yesterday on the 4.5, mid-upper 20's and good bumps. Upwind performance was better as expected, around 5.5knots vmg. I never felt overpowered in ~28 knot gusts. Another guy was out on a 3.0 Flow and said he was feeling overpowered at times (he's a fair bit lighter than me though). I'm 95kg on a 7'4" x 19" SUP/Para board and 900cm AR 15 foil. Did a couple of re-deploys using the front lines to get the wing sorted and pointed LE up, works well but you need to budget more time for the process.

Definitely going to have to do GPS track comparisons on the same day. I've seen a few out on the river lately and I'm getting the same (if not better) angles as the Paia on my Pocket Rockets. What's more, they're sizing at least 1m larger.
The only way I can think they outperform is if you're an up-winder who doesn't use a harness? Or maybe if you're a little less experienced and don't want a rocket-ship when the gusts come through

from my few sessions on the 5.3 and 6.1 , I think the best feature of the paia is the added range , riding comfort and speed vs upwind ability.
After a hundred or so parawing sessions I still find I have to be on my game and focusing to ride with speed upwind on a single skin. It's quite draining for long runs

on the paia I can just cruise and enjoy the ride similar to kiting , even more comfortably than winging

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Darripah said..
from my few sessions on the 5.3 and 6.1 , I think the best feature of the paia is the added range , riding comfort and speed vs upwind ability.
After a hundred or so parawing sessions I still find I have to be on my game and focusing to ride with speed upwind on a single skin. It's quite draining for long runs

on the paia I can just cruise and enjoy the ride similar to kiting , even more comfortably than winging

I would say it's about as comfortable as winging, but angles and vmg aren't quite as good. However upwind performance is close to a wing and way less tiring than a regular para. I think it's a niche product, good if you want to do long upwind legs and don't have time or a partner for a shuttle. This describes me many days right now so it's worth it to me. I would not recommend one if you like to ride in place and redeploy a lot. I wouldn't recommend one if you are shuttling. But if you want to go upwind a few miles, it's significantly better.

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JonahL said..

Darripah said..
from my few sessions on the 5.3 and 6.1 , I think the best feature of the paia is the added range , riding comfort and speed vs upwind ability.
After a hundred or so parawing sessions I still find I have to be on my game and focusing to ride with speed upwind on a single skin. It's quite draining for long runs

on the paia I can just cruise and enjoy the ride similar to kiting , even more comfortably than winging

I would say it's about as comfortable as winging, but angles and vmg aren't quite as good. However upwind performance is close to a wing and way less tiring than a regular para. I think it's a niche product, good if you want to do long upwind legs and don't have time or a partner for a shuttle. This describes me many days right now so it's worth it to me. I would not recommend one if you like to ride in place and redeploy a lot. I wouldn't recommend one if you are shuttling. But if you want to go upwind a few miles, it's significantly better.

Its weird but i find the parawing way less tiring than winging. I use a harness for both. I am about 30 sessions on the parawing and been winging upwind to ride bumps since wing foiling was invented. I ride ozone and a pocket rocket is very comfortable over a wing with the same angles achievable.

Not sure where the Piaia would fit.

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AnyBoard said..

JonahL said..

Darripah said..
from my few sessions on the 5.3 and 6.1 , I think the best feature of the paia is the added range , riding comfort and speed vs upwind ability.
After a hundred or so parawing sessions I still find I have to be on my game and focusing to ride with speed upwind on a single skin. It's quite draining for long runs

on the paia I can just cruise and enjoy the ride similar to kiting , even more comfortably than winging

I would say it's about as comfortable as winging, but angles and vmg aren't quite as good. However upwind performance is close to a wing and way less tiring than a regular para. I think it's a niche product, good if you want to do long upwind legs and don't have time or a partner for a shuttle. This describes me many days right now so it's worth it to me. I would not recommend one if you like to ride in place and redeploy a lot. I wouldn't recommend one if you are shuttling. But if you want to go upwind a few miles, it's significantly better.

Its weird but i find the parawing way less tiring than winging. I use a harness for both. I am about 30 sessions on the parawing and been winging upwind to ride bumps since wing foiling was invented. I ride ozone and a pocket rocket is very comfortable over a wing with the same angles achievable.

Not sure where the Piaia would fit.

Yeh I'm with you. I find I can go upwind for ages on a single skin. Even on the BRM V1 I could match the angle of all wingers at my local last summer, but slower so VMG of wing over parawing was better. I've always used a harness too. The BRM V2 is more technical to go upwind as it's easy to expose too much canopy to the wind and slightly stall which slows you down. It took quite a while before I learnt to depower more to go faster, and now, In a harness I can go for ages upwind really well and without strain. The obvious benefit of the V2 is just how dynamic it is to ride and mostly I find any lack of upwind ability is a worthy compromise. With the Paia I can point bit higher but the real difference is the speed at which you can travel. I don't have any stats on this, being only a few session on it, but I'm sure it's considerable. Comfort is great but somewhat offset by the difficulty getting going. For most riders who want an all round, one parawing that does it all, look elsewhere. Double skins aren't likely to replace my singe skin but just quite possibly my car. Can't wait to get more time on it.

Just had my first on foil session with the 4.5M. Hurricane Erin resulted in some gusty winds, ranging from 13 to 38 mph according to the accurate meter on the water within a few yards of riding. It handles the upper end no problem. The lower end, not so much. Session was in a protected area.the kiddie pool.
55L ML with 880 then 1080 foil, 67kgs.

I wish it was a more constant wind so I could get a better sense of what wind power was needed to get on Foil. I did get out my 3.2 Kanaha right afterwards and found it generally easier to get on Foil (although a bit hectic on the high end).

I think there is a pumping technique to be learned where you let the wing fall back in the window slightly and then pull down and simultaneously bring it higher in the window, subtly. When it goes back in the window, it loses power, but as it comes back into the window up high, it really accelerates and has some grunt and you can pull on it pretty good given its inflated structure. Oscillating between the two has some value. It takes some wrist and arm coordination. Time will tell if this is a valid technique.

Up on foil and heading upwind in the stronger winds felt amazing. I felt like I was going into the eye of the wind, going almost perpendicular to the small bumps. This may be a problem in big conditions, as I already feel like an Olympic hurdler with the single skin mashing over bumps at a more obtuse angle. It also really keeps its momentum through the lulls and doesn't require as much babysitting.
The angles did not feel as great riding toeside. The Paia is so stable that I was pretty close to switching stances at one point, despite the gusty conditions, and my lack of skill. (I once dedicated a whole 30 minutes of trying to learn switch stance winging a couple years ago).

It's unfortunate that there is a low end sacrifice to gain the high-end. I can't wait for a few years from now where we can have the best of both worlds as I'm sure it's possible.

Going from the Paia to the Kanaha felt like I switched out from an Aston Martin on a wet track to a Honda Civic with grippy tires. Civic might be lighter and a bit more nimble but the Aston Martin wants to let the horses run once it's moving. I had a 1.6knt higher top speed with the Paia, but the average is probably more substantial.

I tried a bunch of tacks with the Paia and came quite close to staying on foil, but nailed my 2nd attempt with the Kanaha thanks to the grunt (and despite it coming around and putting the wing upside down on the water momentarily).

Here are two snapshots of the angles between the two. To be fair the long tack on the 3.2 Kanaha wasn't during a gust, but the smaller one lower down was.