Another "tuning" session today, nice offshore bay so super flat water, and easy access to tools etc to change around tails quickly. I clipped one of the red Armstrong shims to use it as a negative. First tried the KD 14 shimless (-1) and then with the clipped and turned around 1deg red shim (so -2 total). Then tried the FV200 shimless (-1) and then with the neg shim (-2). Also moved the mast all the way forward in the 5'4 Quatro.

Have to say that moving up those last 2 cm in the boxes made it feel much nicer and removed most of the nose down tendency at speed, even without the negative shim (so running it shimless on the A+, at -1), for both the KD14 and FV200.

Adding the negative shim (so -2 total) made both setups perhaps a bit more stable, but really need more time and better wind (it was extremely gusty today, 8kt lulls with 20kts gusts) to fully conclude.

Curious about those negative shims Kane, would you mind posting a pic to show what they look like? Even a -1 shim made for a noticeable gap between the fuselage and the tail. I can only assume how big that gap must look like when you're at -3.5 or -4.5...

Finally got to demo a 925, winging. I have a lot of experience with the 1125. I am 70 kg and use an Armstrong FG 75 L board. Setup is 85/60/232 with Kane -1. The 2 foils are more similar than different. The 925 has a slightly higher stall speed, is faster and turns much better than the 1125. The 925 also requires a faster pump cadence but both pump very well and are excellent foils. My 1125 will continue to be my everyday foil and I bought the 925 for bigger wave days to take advantage of its turning ability.

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greg87foil said..
Another "tuning" session today, nice offshore bay so super flat water, and easy access to tools etc to change around tails quickly. I clipped one of the red Armstrong shims to use it as a negative. First tried the KD 14 shimless (-1) and then with the clipped and turned around 1deg red shim (so -2 total). Then tried the FV200 shimless (-1) and then with the neg shim (-2). Also moved the mast all the way forward in the 5'4 Quatro.

Have to say that moving up those last 2 cm in the boxes made it feel much nicer and removed most of the nose down tendency at speed, even without the negative shim (so running it shimless on the A+, at -1), for both the KD14 and FV200.

Adding the negative shim (so -2 total) made both setups perhaps a bit more stable, but really need more time and better wind (it was extremely gusty today, 8kt lulls with 20kts gusts) to fully conclude.

Curious about those negative shims Kane, would you mind posting a pic to show what they look like? Even a -1 shim made for a noticeable gap between the fuselage and the tail. I can only assume how big that gap must look like when you're at -3.5 or -4.5...

So what number did you end up on the mast box. Said you started at 5 then moved it back. But then you said you "moved it up 2cm?".
I'm running at 7, but the rise up and slap down is there when starting. Wouldn't mind bringing it back and maybe going -2 shim. but wondering about drag.

im injured at the moment so interested in your findings.

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eppo said..

greg87foil said..
Another "tuning" session today, nice offshore bay so super flat water, and easy access to tools etc to change around tails quickly. I clipped one of the red Armstrong shims to use it as a negative. First tried the KD 14 shimless (-1) and then with the clipped and turned around 1deg red shim (so -2 total). Then tried the FV200 shimless (-1) and then with the neg shim (-2). Also moved the mast all the way forward in the 5'4 Quatro.

Have to say that moving up those last 2 cm in the boxes made it feel much nicer and removed most of the nose down tendency at speed, even without the negative shim (so running it shimless on the A+, at -1), for both the KD14 and FV200.

Adding the negative shim (so -2 total) made both setups perhaps a bit more stable, but really need more time and better wind (it was extremely gusty today, 8kt lulls with 20kts gusts) to fully conclude.

Curious about those negative shims Kane, would you mind posting a pic to show what they look like? Even a -1 shim made for a noticeable gap between the fuselage and the tail. I can only assume how big that gap must look like when you're at -3.5 or -4.5...

So what number did you end up on the mast box. Said you started at 5 then moved it back. But then you said you "moved it up 2cm?".
I'm running at 7, but the rise up and slap down is there when starting. Wouldn't mind bringing it back and maybe going -2 shim. but wondering about drag.

im injured at the moment so interested in your findings.

I'm on the Quatro board not Armstrong, so it wasn't me talking about those mast box numbers

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greg87foil said..

Curious about those negative shims Kane, would you mind posting a pic to show what they look like? Even a -1 shim made for a noticeable gap between the fuselage and the tail. I can only assume how big that gap must look like when you're at -3.5 or -4.5...

Same here, I trimmed a couple shims and set up the tail - there's a sizable gap as you note. I'd like a cleaner shim system if it's available.

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emmafoils, I'm the same weight and also on the FG 75 L board. My mast is at 3.5 in the tracks with front foot straps in the rear holes. I am loving the setup but curious where your mast is positioned? I've been running the 72 cm mast as the places I've been foiling are shallow. Looking forward to testing out the 85 cm mast.

Above is a link on setting up FG boards initially. I found it helpful. I have the 5'8 Wingsup and had been running the mast position at around 4. I changed to 7 after seeing this and it worked for me.

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johndg said..

Above is a link on setting up FG boards initially. I found it helpful. I have the 5'8 Wingsup and had been running the mast position at around 4. I changed to 7 after seeing this and it worked for me.

johndg, what difference did you notice on getting the board up on foil and once flying? What foils are you using and what is your weight?

Foilnut I hadnt tried the mast position so far forward before this. The board just felt better balanced. The feeling is that the board flies faster and is more controllable. With the FG boards I found some small differences to my prior boards. The main one being that generating more forward speed on the plane helps bring the foil up evenly - initially I had some bag and crash foil lifts before holding flight.

My equipment; 5'8" Wingsup FG, 1850, 1550,1250 and recently 1325. I fly them all at mast position 7, I like zero tail (plus one red shim on A+). 1550 v2 is my preferred foil as it can generate some speed. 1325 I have just purchased and used once in 8 to 12 knots. Could get up sooner than I expected - the thinner foil felt like I could accelerate quicker than the 1850. Great glide. The gybes were more difficult but that is probably me needing more time on the board.

Me; 63 yo, 83kgs, I have started using front straps recently. Armstrong ones are great - just cut to fit.

5'8" Wingsup is going great. Trying to use as one board to wing and sup. The paddling takes some practice to generate straight line power instead of wiggle.

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johndg said..
Foilnut I hadnt tried the mast position so far forward before this. The board just felt better balanced. The feeling is that the board flies faster and is more controllable. With the FG boards I found some small differences to my prior boards. The main one being that generating more forward speed on the plane helps bring the foil up evenly - initially I had some bag and crash foil lifts before holding flight.

My equipment; 5'8" Wingsup FG, 1850, 1550,1250 and recently 1325. I fly them all at mast position 7, I like zero tail (plus one red shim on A+). 1550 v2 is my preferred foil as it can generate some speed. 1325 I have just purchased and used once in 8 to 12 knots. Could get up sooner than I expected - the thinner foil felt like I could accelerate quicker than the 1850. Great glide. The gybes were more difficult but that is probably me needing more time on the board.

Me; 63 yo, 83kgs, I have started using front straps recently. Armstrong ones are great - just cut to fit.

5'8" Wingsup is going great. Trying to use as one board to wing and sup. The paddling takes some practice to generate straight line power instead of wiggle.

johndg.. I have both FG99 and 75. Mostly riding 99 (75 work in progress). I have been riding both around 4.5 setting/0.5 blue shim. Took the board out to test level position using Olly's technique 1/2 chord. Bit different than Kane at 1/3 chord from front. Just a starting point. So for both the 1550V2 and 1125 level is about 2, LOL. I put a level just adjacent to the mast. Intending to try at 7, but waiting for temps above freezing. I had to use a heat gun to loosen up mast as was frozen in position. ;o) My experience was when I had at 5 foil exhibited the rise up and slap down characteristic. Moving back 0.5-1 cm eliminated that, so 7 will be interesting. I do not use straps(too many injuries) so i can move over the board. 1325 is on order.

The HA take some time to learn. Key things for me is always foil pressure especially on jibes. Jibes need speed and pressure. So much fun when you start getting them as you come out with speed and the glide is sweet. They are not forgiving if you loose pressure or drop below stall speed. I do find they are more challenging if water is choppy. Not plug and play like 1250

Ok, I have to try the 99 for SUP. I am pretty much same weight and age. This will be entertaining.

Found this teaser video from Alan Cadiz ties into keeping pressure on the foil based on body, board and foil alignment.

I ran the 925 / 100M / 50F / 232+1 yesterday on my 60L FG at 5.5 in some gusty 20-35 Mph winds with my 3M and the 2M.
In hindsight I would have dropped to a 0 shim setting, but it felt great. I'm finding that the +1 setting will allow the front wing to wander up/down the water column at the mercy of wave turbulence when bump riding. I'm guessing the - shim settings Kane has been running helps offset that. Can't wait to experiment with his shims.
My buddy after the session did his best to inflate my ego when he said my toeside tacks into 30mph winds were looking like Johnny Heineken.
The spot is one of my favorites where the flood tide rushes up river while a long fetch of windswell is funneled under a huge bridge at the narrow point on the York River. The result is clean swell lines on the leeward side of the bridge that stand up in close sets, despite the river being over 80' deep.

Graham, that York River place looks fantastic. I should have taken your advice and turned around.

I just returned from ~month long trip down the east coast to Florida & back to NH. I got about a dozen wing sessions on the HA925 and a handful of prone sessions on it. I love this foil the more I use it. It carves such amazing turns when you lean into it and the pump & glide are unreal.

I'm on a 75L Armstrong FG wing board and settled on 3.5 to 4 mast setting for winging (front footstraps only). I'm using a first generation Armstrong 4'-11", 39 L prone board, with mast almost all the way forward. I weigh ~68 kg. I was primarily using a 72 cm mast due to water depth limitations but had a couple wing sessions on the 85 cm in big chop, and one session on a 60 cm mast in Delaware where it was really shallow. You really have to recalibrate your brain when changing from 85 to 60 cm masts on the same day!

I've tried shimming the tails from +1 to -2 on both the 232 and V200 tail and honestly I can't feel any difference. Maybe I need to do back to back tests in identical wind and water conditions to come to any conclusions. I recently ordered a -2 TTF shim for my non-A+ fuse, so the choices there will be zero, +1 and -2. I'm anxious to head back south in January to do more 'testing'!

Finally tested out a -.5 degree FoilAddict shim with the 925 in a small side-offshore wave Session. FV200 tail, 85M, 60F 60L FG board at 4 mast position.

At first I tried my sinker and a 3M wing, which resulted in a paddle of shame back through the shorebreak to swap to the 60L and 4M with some wind sprints to the car in between to beat the fading daylight.


Back to the negative shim. I was pleasantly surprised by the change in ride characteristics compared to my normal double red shim go-to. I imagine it was much like a takuma ride, with more front foot pressure, but not so much that I couldn't control the lift. I only breached once on my first tack. It also wasn't the same as riding with the mast too far forward with the double reds either, as that feels like riding uphill. I was able to drive carves on the face with more feedback from the wing on the front foot, which resulted in a more aggressive, positive riding style, as compared to a more reactive riding style with dub reds.


I will surely keep exploring the negative shims to find my favorite. Can't wait to try the 725 with 70F and -1 shim. Thanks FoilAddict! I had ordered three sets and already handed out the spares to friends.

MidAtlanticFoil
are you using longer bolts in the stab with the minus shims?

The .5 degree doesn't require longer bolt, but I imagine the 3 degree would!

I've found most people actually prefer the -1.5 shim, and that it changes depending on board size and mast length. Tried a few -1.5 setups myself and they felt awesome. Maybe there was something off with my original test setup.

I went -2 which gave good front foot pressure but was draggy at speed on a decent swell.

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FoilAddict said..
I've found most people actually prefer the -1.5 shim, and that it changes depending on board size and mast length. Tried a few -1.5 setups myself and they felt awesome. Maybe there was something off with my original test setup.

I've only tried the -.5 so far, so that's a -1.5 overall on the setup. I'm only 63kgs, which is a big factor. I rarely ride the same setup back to back, unless I have a banger session the conditions and setup the similar next session. Otherwise, I'm mad scientist'ing the setup for the given conditions of the day, which changes all the time where I live. I get a few days a quarter that match up if I'm lucky.

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FoilAddict said..
I've found most people actually prefer the -1.5 shim, and that it changes depending on board size and mast length. Tried a few -1.5 setups myself and they felt awesome. Maybe there was something off with my original test setup.

Do I understand correctly that this is actually -2.5? (A+ system having -1 built in to fuse combined with -1.5 shim = -2.5?). This would be for the 85 mast, 60 fuse? You'd need more negative shimming if running longer mast and/or fuse? I've been running the 85, A+ 60 fuse at -2 with V tail on a 5.4' board fully forward in boxes. Feels pretty good but haven't tried more neg shimming. 90 kilo rider, HA foils.

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Windoc said..

FoilAddict said..
I've found most people actually prefer the -1.5 shim, and that it changes depending on board size and mast length. Tried a few -1.5 setups myself and they felt awesome. Maybe there was something off with my original test setup.

Do I understand correctly that this is actually -2.5? (A+ system having -1 built in to fuse combined with -1.5 shim = -2.5?). This would be for the 85 mast, 60 fuse? You'd need more negative shimming if running longer mast and/or fuse? I've been running the 85, A+ 60 fuse at -2 with V tail on a 5.4' board fully forward in boxes. Feels pretty good but haven't tried more neg shimming. 90 kilo rider, HA foils.

I've settled on the same dialing as you for the HA925: fv200 tail at -2 (one clipped and reversed red shim), 85 mast, 60 fuse, on a 5'4 90L board (Quatro) with mast fully forward in boxes. 78kg rider. Also haven't tried more shimming but will give another -0.5deg a go and report back.

I was riding the 925 at zero with a custom KD maui type tail that has a lot of lift. Was ideal. But I couldn't prone pump to save my life. Zero front foot pressure. Gonna try my minus 2 titanium shim next.

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real life comparison in stormy winter conditions

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I have both and am completely sold on the 925 for winging, esp. when it's choppy and blowing over 20. All the nice traits of the 1125 without the clumsy span of the 1125


longboard said..
Newly released foil & obviously the smaller version of the HA1125.

Anyone have any real life comparison between the 2 foils...?
I'd be interested to hear how the HA925 fairs for winging...

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dapara2004 said..

real life comparison in stormy winter conditions

I have both and am completely sold on the 925 for winging, esp. when it's choppy and blowing over 20. All the nice traits of the 1125 without the clumsy span of the 1125


longboard said..
Newly released foil & obviously the smaller version of the HA1125.

Anyone have any real life comparison between the 2 foils...?
I'd be interested to hear how the HA925 fairs for winging...

The 925 is similar to the 1125 for pump and glide. Slightly higher stall speed but much much better turning compared to the 1125.

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emmafoils said..

dapara2004 said..

real life comparison in stormy winter conditions

I have both and am completely sold on the 925 for winging, esp. when it's choppy and blowing over 20. All the nice traits of the 1125 without the clumsy span of the 1125


longboard said..
Newly released foil & obviously the smaller version of the HA1125.

Anyone have any real life comparison between the 2 foils...?
I'd be interested to hear how the HA925 fairs for winging...

The 925 is similar to the 1125 for pump and glide. Slightly higher stall speed but much much better turning compared to the 1125.

Can anyone please tell me / clarify the reason why the 1125 is not as well behaved as the 925? is it just the length or is there a bit of curve that is present somewhere that I am not aware of as they both look identical (except that the 1125 is a bit longer in wing span and cord?:-)

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Johndesu said..

emmafoils said..

dapara2004 said..

real life comparison in stormy winter conditions

I have both and am completely sold on the 925 for winging, esp. when it's choppy and blowing over 20. All the nice traits of the 1125 without the clumsy span of the 1125


longboard said..
Newly released foil & obviously the smaller version of the HA1125.

Anyone have any real life comparison between the 2 foils...?
I'd be interested to hear how the HA925 fairs for winging...

The 925 is similar to the 1125 for pump and glide. Slightly higher stall speed but much much better turning compared to the 1125.

Can anyone please tell me / clarify the reason why the 1125 is not as well behaved as the 925? is it just the length or is there a bit of curve that is present somewhere that I am not aware of as they both look identical (except that the 1125 is a bit longer in wing span and cord?:-)

I'm going to stick my neck out here...

I've ridden both foils(the 1125 extensively)
I reckon the 925 is the sports car version of the 1125, I don't have any issues with the turning of the 1125 & I'm certainly not anything special on the skill spectrum!

I don't own a 925...yet...I'll be purchasing one very soon though.

I find I submerge the foil just slightly more during hard turns, a tad more than the HS foils...perhaps that's one key to success with the wider span HA series...?

I would say it comes down to the wingspan. The wider the foil the slower and more input it takes to role the foil rail to rail. Another consideration is the wider wingspan feels more turbulence in the water. The 925 does feel much faster too and is definitely preferable to me over the 1125.

I found it better than the 1125 and still came up quite easily and I'm 112kg it definitely gybes better than the 1125 the faster roll rate makes it more lively but at the same time easier to control I'd like to see a slightly lower aspect with less width but it's still a nice bit of kit

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emmafoils said..

dapara2004 said..

real life comparison in stormy winter conditions

I have both and am completely sold on the 925 for winging, esp. when it's choppy and blowing over 20. All the nice traits of the 1125 without the clumsy span of the 1125


longboard said..
Newly released foil & obviously the smaller version of the HA1125.

Anyone have any real life comparison between the 2 foils...?
I'd be interested to hear how the HA925 fairs for winging...

The 925 is similar to the 1125 for pump and glide. Slightly higher stall speed but much much better turning compared to the 1125.

I totally agree. I like the 1125 over the HS1550v2 on those lighter smaller days 'cause it's so darn smooth, but the 925 is snappy and still smooth. I ride the 925 a bit further forward on my board than the HS1250 . Weirdest thing is that I grab either the higher area 1250 or the lower area higher aspect 925 in the same wind . Perhaps I like the surfy mushy fun on the 1250 on nuking days when there's crazy chop to play in (and lulls in between gusts), but, when the swell lines up better and it's not as punchy, I am digging the speed and swell chasing fun of the 925.and the insane upwindability!

After quite a few sessions I am still not really dialled in on 925 shim and mast settings.

at speed on bigger waves i am touching down regularly and have to work hard on back foot to keep the foil up, but balanced at normal riding speed.

925/60/232 and have played with zero shim (-1) to one red, not really noticing any diff at speed.

i will probably get the smaller tail but any other recommendations?

Funny I just had a tow foil (flat water) this morning on my sons tiny FG board, 75 mast, no shim (so -1.5) and for the first time used the 725. (On the HA 195 tail). Thought I'd eat crap but went surprisingly well.

At 4 in the mast box.

Then I put the 925 on . didn't feel half as good - was much harder to start (lots of bunny hops) and didn't like the turbulence of the wake. weird


plus breaching the tips (which was the aim) on the carves didn't behave nearly as well (probably because more tip came out)


Function of width I'd say.


So not even one bit interested in the 1125. 1325 oh forget it too wide in my mind.


again armie needs that middle ground man between the HS and the HA, they really do. in my humble opinion. What would I know really?

Time to sell all your armie gear and go GF @eppo, I did and no regrets