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hoop said...

How much wind was that? I reckon it looks a bit too light. Maybe better off going for a surf or sup. That set up looks like it would be fun for about 12 knots though.

So pretty much like Pete said. Backed off a little later in the arvo when the pic was taken.
I reckon that confirms the 12 knot limit. Under that go surfing or supping.
I'm going to start building a big fat wave board this week. I'll put some pics up when I'm done.
By the way ,Is that Pete Thomset?

ahd website says the sealion is good for 0-15 knots

Hoops,

Yeap its me PM me if you like.

As for the lower limits of the Sealion or any light wind wave board it does all depend on alot of things like wind direction, swell height and rider weight and sail type. I have found the following:

- Wind direction cross off to off shore you can down wind wave ride in very little wind, cross on to on shore ok for up wind wave riding but will require more wind to sail down wind and good technique

- Swell height the bigger the wave the more apparent wind comming up the face so this with a cross off to off shore wind will increase the wind in your sail, so it can be a 8kt cross off wind and a 4ft face wave which will give you the felling of a 15kt in your sail as you start your bottom turn this first bottom turn then sets you up for the rest of the wave and as long as you surf the wave ie stay in the steepest part of the wave the board will generate speed by itself and you will contiue to get the apparent wind comming into the sail.

- Now rider weight this is a bit different I have a few theroies on this one and it go's like this it is not how heavy you are but how much pressure or weight you put through your legs ie being light on your feet. Now light weights have the advantage of being able to float on a lower volumne board when at a static state compared to heavy weights when I mean static I mean board not moving or sailor not moving around the board. I believe that heavy weights can have the advantge especially with higher volumn boards of getting them on the plain as they can pump the board onto the plain alot easier by using their weight.

-Sail type I have found sails which have a constant power supply are better for light wind wave riding big boards as they help with pumping and riding as they lock the power in and keep it in. So a sail like the Alpha for me works better than the Combat.

So with AHD's claim that the Sealion can be used in 0 to 15kts I disagree I would say for sailing it can be used in a steady breeze of 5kts to 20kts comfortably either side of this and you will need to use very good technique. For SUPing the Sealion can be used from 0kts to 10kts comfortably again over 10kts and it required better technique, now these are my findings at 95kgs and with I guess good sailing / surfing ability.

Hope this helps.

Pete

Hey Pete can you post or pm me when you are heading down to the beach this week, I want to have a look at the board.
Thanks.

Hey I just met up with Bertie at Metts.
If the wind comes in this arvo he will be down there.
I think he said Pete gave him the board to try?
Rider, Bertie lives in your hood

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Pete T said...


>>>>>>

- Wind direction cross off to off shore you can down wind wave ride in very little wind, cross on to on shore ok for up wind wave riding but will require more wind to sail down wind and good technique

- Swell height the bigger the wave the more apparent wind comming up the face so this with a cross off to off shore wind will increase the wind in your sail, so it can be a 8kt cross off wind and a 4ft face wave which will give you the felling of a 15kt in your sail as you start your bottom turn this first bottom turn then sets you up for the rest of the wave and as long as you surf the wave ie stay in the steepest part of the wave the board will generate speed by itself and you will contiue to get the apparent wind comming into the sail.

>>>>>>>>

Interesting, I'd always expected light wind wave sailing to be better the more off shore it got, and to have a lower wind strength cut off.
But I also assume, it gets harder to get on to the wave, as to travel in the same direction as the wave you're going upwind.

A while ago somebody posted pics of tow in windsurfing, I thought at the time, it was because it was light side off shore, and the waves a decent size. Would have been hard to pick them up, but once on them there'd be enough apparent wind to make it worth while.

Not sure what size boards they were on, maybe if the boards had been bigger, towing in wouldn't be necessary???

Ok these were the conditions i went out in today.


As you can tell it wasnt very windy.
The sealion is quite tippy and not the easiest board to ride in sub 5 knots. But with a little speed and momentum its much nicer.
I guess i only had about 3 really good waves but it felt real nice and really liked going from rail to rail. Certainly not a beginners board. It did feel like it would plane with a couple of pumps in about 8 knots .

I really liked it for my 78Kg, and was just on a 5.4sqm sail. I think SUP may have been better suited for the conditions but only since the swell had dropped massively from midday when greenie was out suppin.
I'm not 100% decided yet but feel a slightly longer board of similar proportions would be a tad more forgiving and easier to gybe and tack while the arrows are in the red.
Its a pitty the swell has gone away and the boat we were taking to rotto shat its self, so i think i'll be trying some other things out for a while :)

Good effort Bertie. From my house the trees were still and I wondered how you would have gone?
The swell has definately gone. I checked this morning and not much happening out there. The tide is over a metre so maybe with the drop this arvo and a SE wind at 10-15 knots another paddle could be the way to go?

swell back sat,sun,mon and tue

CCCCCCCCCOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEEEEE ON

due to peer pressure, i'm heading to mets right now.

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Bertie said...

due to peer pressure, i'm heading to mets right now.

Hahaha and another good effort thanks to peer pressure. You gotta be stoked with that!?
I bet you were the only person that got a wavesail this arvo in Perth?
Heck, I bet you were probably the only person to get a wavesail in WA?
Here are the wind graphs and some photos I took

thanks for the pics greenie!!! much appreciated.

I still think i need to have a go in the sealion in about 15knots and see how she goes.

Summing up my observations/learnings from riding a few boards in very light conditions:

1. Length = stability. The longer the board the lower the roll rate.

2. Short boards need bigger sails or quite critical takeoffs to get up to the wave speed.
A 5.0 would be adequate on something over 280cm, however a 5.4 on the sealion was not big enough. A 6.0 would be better. Bit as sail size goes up so does uphauling effort.

3. If your sailing mets its much nicer running a twin with 18cm fins than a single 31 or 28, much less chance of hitting the reef when launch/return.

4. these strapless boards are a bugger to get in an out of the water when your rig is hooked up. some kind of handle would be sweet.

5. single concave in the nose is a malibu riding thing so you can nose ride. This is not necessarily a good thing for a light wind windsurfer.

6. keeping swing weight down is important for being snappy on the wave.

7. Speed is King. Good displacement mode speed allows you to tackle big walls of whitewater and move into the best takeoff position.

8. having a good "tacking" area is helpful particularly when you cant waterstart and your in the breakzone. Less dropped tacks= more fun and less effort.

9. wavesailing in sub 15knots is pretty bloody hard work

10. sub planing windsurfing really builds up the skills

i used to have alot of success with a baggy 5.7 of a SB fish 97

the key to making wide fishtails work is lots of vee (almost a stupid amount to look at) in the tail - makes rail to rail a doddle and a fast rocker

I was getting aerials when crew in the bay werent even planing on 6.5- and backies would start to happen at around 13 knots

i used to have alot of success with a baggy 5.7 of a SB fish 97

the key to making wide fishtails work is lots of vee (almost a stupid amount to look at) in the tail - makes rail to rail a doddle and a fast rocker

I was getting aerials when crew in the bay werent even planing on 6.5- and backies would start to happen at around 13 knots

You're a freak Reflex so you can't comment on what works for us mere mortals.
I have seen your back loops and aerials in 13 knots while I on similar sized gear can't get to the break from the beach without sinking to my waist.

I am not sure I agree with Berties thought on requiring a 280 cm board for use with a 5.0 in light stuff. Did you mean 260cm?
I agree that for tacking you need more nose volume (unless you are a magician like reflex, who just appears on the other side of the rig in the blink of an eye). But can't this be achieved with a bit longer nose and more width and volume in the nose? The mini tanker is only 260cm long and this was easy to tack and uphaul.

I think that it is in this wind, that Bertie and Pete have been sampling, where two factors really come into play in which they and others have and advantage also.
Personally going any bigger than 5.5 ish for me the sail just gets in the way with no extra advantage. I am not trying to plane so don't need the power, and the apparent wind is used once on the wave.
Having a surfing ability is more important in choosing the best way to ride the wave to maintain your position and speed rather than the sail size to a degree. I don't have the surfing ability and therefore rely on the sail more than I should. Whereas Pete, Bertie, Greenroom and Reflex, Decrepit etc, can rely on that surfing instinct for extra drive.

With regard to Bertie's comment on fin size, maybe this is where the twin fin can have a big influence - are the AHd's not in tri fin mode also? or is that the Seal.

Either way it makes some of the best sailing now possible in the same conditions that a few years a go would send us all home dissappointed the wind wasn't just a bit stronger. So it is all good.

your probably right Paul, a 260 would be the min, but every bit longer makes a big difference. I do feel that there is a huge advantage and a big market for boards under 250ish long, to make transport and storage easier for those who dont have Barns to sore our gear in.

The sealion Paul, is a twin fishtail, but the seal is a thruster which can be set up in a few different ways. Looking at the tail of the sealion it is dead flat one foot off the tail and around the fins. Most of the V is further up the board.

I'm not the biggest fan of bagging out a sail in the light wind too much. Particularly when its very light. This is because if the draft of the sail is too steep the flow over the leeward side detatches and then the flow over the windward side of the sail just acts like a parachute and drags you side ways. This draft also creates lots of drag when you drop in and your apparent wind goes from zero to lots very quickly and becomes quite a handful. I've even been pushed off the back of the board before when i didn't sheet in for a late takeoff
I know for a fact my Pryde sails don't like bagging out but my gaastra manic HD will do baggy (-2cm outhaul/boom length than recommended) fairly well and not loose too much control.

As to my surfing ability, i never surfed as a kid, i was taken yachting instead . I've tried but i'm crap. I think it comes down time time on the water and time standing up on a wave. Plus i don't like the agro of the surfers in Perth.

Well Pete has the sealion now, so i'll be jumping back on the windstyler for a put around thisarvo hopefully

with regards fin size and sail size.

the 9'10" sup i tried was running a 22cm KA wave fin not a problem. i don't like the KA wave fins on wave boards as they don't seem to work for my weight. on the sup it was fantastic.

sail size i used a 6.4m. pete who i went with was on a 5.8m when i arrived. we switched to the 6.4m, and after the session i asked him if he notcied any improvements with the bigger sail size. he didn't.

this video was shot in 5-8 knots. the extra length made it possible to sail out easily through the break and then tack onto the face of of the waves

http://exposureroom.com/members/Gestalt.aspx/assets/7f5dc672a8a94cb1b01011acc3950697/

has anyone tried the 9'5" or 10'5" kona boards?

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Paul said...

You're a freak Reflex so you can't comment on what works for us mere mortals.

I was just gonna say that Paul. Landing backies in 13 Knots is freak worthy

Hi !
I've seen your discussion from Brittany in France. We're a lot of users of those lightwind boards there. I personnally ride my sealion everyday, windsurf, SUP, and that's an amazing board...
check out followings links, you'll find a lot of return on those boards...but in french...sorry !
leblogdusealion.blogspot.com/
www.u-ride.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=80389
www.u-ride.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=10494&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45&sid=83a35cbeae7110793a2f970051d5b240

For more info on the Sealion....askus(at)a-h-d.com

best regards...
Julien

right, had another light wind session 2day. thought it was windy enough for my 79L but alas no.
I came in and swapped it for a 120L xcite ride.
Now i wouldnt say performance was unreal, i think mainly due to a bad fin combo (31cm FSW) and lots of weed.
It was fun at times but i soon discovered riding in the straps set up in the learner/wave position didn't work well. To sustain a bottom turn you had to take the back foot out and plant it on the rail, which isnt a problem until you crash and ur front foot get stuck in the strap. The problem is that the strap is so far in board your leg tries to snap itself using the rail as a fulcrum.
I think i would have preferred to have been riding the sealion strapless, or maybe tried a slightly smaller freestyle board with a wave fin. Yes there was wind but waterstarting wasnt the easiest at times.

I noticed a dude out at mets on a red *board SUP sport-tec model with a severne gator and red gath. He was getting around allright.
However i'll offer a few tip for him:
1. Dont use the footstrap you put on the back except for carrying the board in and out of the water. This is the reason your very average bottom turns that often lead to a crash.
2. learn to tack. you spent far too much time going way too far out trying to get back upwind, then would drop in on every wave i got onto but downwind of me. If ya got out of that back foot strap and moved forward on the board you'd rail it heaps more and point much closer to the wind, hence get more waves!!!!

Tried sailing my *Board 10'5" today. Rigged my 6.0m Rock. Left the thruster fin set up.

It was 10-15knt Cross off. I found it really easy to get up wind and stall gybe(board just spins on its tail).

It glides onto waves really easy.

Well after sailing around for a while i headed for the long left handers that were realing down the reef. It was shoulder to head high.
The board turns off the bottom so well i found i could hit the lip with ease.

i usually wave sail on a Wave Wand(decrepid custom 90L).

The 10'5" feels the same its just wave sailing in slow motion. I think this has become my low wind wave board for sure when its too choppy to paddle surf.

One very stoked bender as it my first sail in what feeks like ever

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Bertie said...

I noticed a dude out at mets on a red *board SUP sport-tec model with a severne gator and red gath.

Sounds like Nick? Was he tall and skinny?

Bender, glad you had a good wave sail, Paul and I had fun here as well.
But sounds like we had better wind, about 15-18Kt, we were planing most of the time.

So is the 10'5" looser with the sail, than it is with the paddle?
Guess you had the rig in the rear position, didn't feel too bad on the wave?

yeah im pretty sure he was.

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Bertie said...

yeah im pretty sure he was.

Yeah thats Nick. The only bloke at metts who has a red Gath. In fact the only bloke Ive ever seen with a red Gath hehehe

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decrepit said...


Bender, glad you had a good wave sail, Paul and I had fun here as well.
But sounds like we had better wind, about 15-18Kt, we were planing most of the time.

So is the 10'5" looser with the sail, than it is with the paddle?
Guess you had the rig in the rear position, didn't feel too bad on the wave?

yep mast foot in the back position. Its easier to snap off the top with a sail on. I am guessing you have more leverage. On one reo the fins let go and i slid out down the face.

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Greenroom said...

Bertie said...

yeah im pretty sure he was.

Yeah thats Nick. The only bloke at metts who has a red Gath. In fact the only bloke Ive ever seen with a red Gath hehehe

nah my mate rob has had a red one since 2003. he sails mets and scabs a lot.

How good was today? Wahoooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What a brilliant mid May seabreeze. Fully comfy on the 5.3 and 70ltr evil twin.

I had every intention of trying the 9'8 starboard sup with the sail and letting you all in on how it went. Had a couple of hours paddling this morning at cott with no real swell then thought I would go south, on the prediction of a rising swell. As soon as I got to the carpark an hour later the mal riders were coming in and a 5 knot breeze came from no where.
I rigged up the 5.3 and went to put a front strap on the sup. By the time I got the screwdriver out the breeze had filled to 12-15 knots so scratched that idea.

From 12 to 15 knots there is NO need for the big boards. Sorry - no help for this discussion. The wind reached a solid 15 to 18 knots with head high waves and Decrepit and I had a completely unexpected fun session. Waves were a bit thin but I could not believe how good and fresh the wind was. Just 2 sailors and 2 kites. What a brilliant endless summer - without doubt my best ever.

Back to the original topic. Yes Nick in on his friends 9'0 sup wide fish tail. (I don't think Nick knows how to go up wind. Sorry Nick but I remember running down the coast to rescue you earlier this summer)

I agree with Bertie that the back foot strap is really going to be more of a problem bottom turning on that board than a help. Helpful in control off the top, but you will definately need a different foot placement for the bottom turn. The freedon to adjust foot placement is the key to the sup style boards. However the new 9'8 is a round pin tail and much narrower. It may be more possible to use the strap as this board turns much sharper. I would have loved to try it myself today but it was too windy to waste time on the bigger boards.

I know what you mean Paul. Normal kit does work in light winds. I have had a similar sesh with Decrep(wave wand/6.0m rock) in non planing conditons. We had it to ourselves for two hours. We both had no problems getting upwind or getting onto waves. I would have struggled to water start though, lucky i didnt fall in.

Today i found the 10'5" really forgiving and easy to wave ride. i think i would have struggled to get onto the waves on my wave board as it was very offshore.

I'm just stoked to have got out